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Mohammad313Ali

The Authenticity of The Third Shahada

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7 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

@Mahdavist Respected brother is it safe to conclude that the reason Sayed Sistani does not deem it as a Bid'ah, but rather a Mustahab act is due to the reaction that may be received from the people in regards to this (now) irreversible practice?

Edit: Another question I have pertaining to when we enter Salat, for example when prostrating or bowing we send Salwat on the Prophet and his Immaculate progeny, why then is this not considered a Bid'ah as opposed to the third testimony?

-no I wouldn't make assumptions on why sayed al Sistani and other ulema have considered this, especially without having read into the details of this matter (brothers Ibn al Hussain and Ibn al Ja'abi presented some references in the previous thread explaining the reasoning of contemporary ulema). 

I also disagree that the practice is irreversible. I think current and future generations have the potential to rectify this. 

-the recitation of the salawat during the rukooh and the sujood is based on narrations which describe what supplements one may recite during these acts. 

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2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I also disagree that the practice is irreversible. I think current and future generations have the potential to rectify this. 

It being a political slogan I must say if anyone attempts to rectify this there will be bloodshed, also they have the greater advantage which is that in regards to the grand scholars who have  deemed it acceptable. I respectfully disagree with any such potential. Only the Imam (عجل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) will be able to rectify such matters in my humble opinion.

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6 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

It being a political slogan I must say if anyone attempts to rectify this there will be bloodshed, also they have the greater advantage which is that in regards to the grand scholars who have  deemed it acceptable. I respectfully disagree with any such potential. Only the Imam (عجل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) will be able to rectify such matters in my humble opinion.

Of course there won't be bloodshed there is absolutely no basis or justification for that. There are already several Shia laymen, scholars and masajid by whom and where it isn't recited. 

Edited by Mahdavist

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Guest Pschological Warfare

As a Layman, If you believe in Taqlid this question should not even be an issue of debate among the layman with limited knowledge. Which defies the basic concept of Taqlid in Fiqi (Jurisprudence) issue. 

There is a lot of money out there to build centers to undermine Wilayat. 

From a non Fiqi point, the benefit outway the personal risk, which if your intention is correct and the you see the dangers stemming from the ones looking to stop the name been heard, or  damage the very core of the message it will inflict, should not be in issue on the Day of Judgement. All out acts are dependent on our intentions and o act has any merit without the Wilayat. 

-----------------

928. Ash hadu anna Amiral Muminina'Aliyyan Waliyyullah (I.e. I testify that the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (Peace be on him) is the vicegerent of Allah) is not a part of either Azan or Iqamah It is, however, better to pronounce it after Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasulul lah to seek Divine pleasure.

https://www.al-Islam.org/Islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/prayers#azan-and-iqamah

928. Ash hadu anna Amiral Mu'minina 'Aliyyan Waliyyullah ( I testify that the Commander of the faithful, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the vicegerent of Allah) is not a part of either Adhan or Iqamah. But it is preferable that it is pronounced after Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasulul lah with the niyyat of Qurbat.

http://www.Sistani.org/english/book/48/2216/

928 َوِل اًّليِع َن َّاُ هد َشَ ْا)Ash'hadu anna Aliyyan wali'ullah) (“I bear witness that Ali (Peace be upon him) is the vicegerent of God”) is not a part of the azan, nor the iqamah. However, since the guardianship of Amir al-Mu’menin (Peace be upon him) is the completion of the religion, to recite it in any state, including after the statement لل ََّّا ل ُسو ُرَ bear I“اَ ْش َهدُ ا َّن ُم َح َّمدً witness that Muhammad (Peace be upon him and his progeny) is the messenger of

God” is the best means of attaining Divine proximity.

http://www.Islamic-laws.com/download/Islamic Laws - Sheikh Wahid Khorasani.pdf

 

Q 452: What is your esteemed opinion on the third testimony for the master of believers, Imam Ali (a.), as being the commander and the leader, in the adhān and iqāmah of obligatory prayers?
A: Saying “Ashhadu anna ‘Aliyyan Waliyyullāh” in adhān and iqāmah with the intention of being a symbol for the Shī‘ah school of thought is good and important and it should be said only for the sake of nearness to Allah, but it is not a part of adhān and iqāmah. 

http://www.leader.ir/en/book/23

“Ash hadu anna Amiral Mu'mineena 'Aliyyan Waliyyullah” (I.e. I testify that the Commander of the faithful, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the vicegerent of Allah) is not a part of either Adhan or Iqamah. But it is preferable that it is pronounced after “Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasuloollah” with the intention of Qurbah.

http://www.alnajafi.org/books/43-a-concise-guide-of-Islamic-laws/143-rules-of-prayer.html

"Case: The phrase “Ash_hado an-na Aliy-yan waliy-yol-la>h” is the integral part of both adha>n and iqa>mah, as some narrations point to."

http://www.english.shirazi.ir/books/Islamic_Law_2013_SecondEdition.pdf

Links for Review:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235056780-Ali-in-the-athaan/?tab=comments#comment-3133319

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235050103-the-real-Shia-adhan/

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235038954-bida-in-adhan/

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235056400-Ali-as-in-salat/

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On 4/10/2020 at 2:29 PM, Mahdavist said:

Brother, like I have mentioned previously

-it is not part of the adhan or iqamah (this doesn't need to be revisited because nearly everyone is in agreement here)

-in Shi'ism we do not have 'good' and 'bad' innovations, rather bid'ah is collectively condemned and refused

-therefore the only position to allow this recitation is the one that the contemporary scholars have mentioned, being that it is a 'supplement' and independent from the adhan itself

-the position of ihtiyaat would be to avoid it since there isn't a consensus on it's permissibility

-I personally would not go as far as to label it an outright innovation because of the secondary arguments that are used to justify it (I call them secondary because they are based on interpretation, extrapolation and indicators rather than clear cut commands from the ma'soomeen)

Beyond this I don't think there's much to be said. 

Since Mohammad313Ali asked:

I completely agree with the aforementioned points.

I personally do not mention the third testament in my prayer, knowing well that it came after the Prophet's time but neither do I think that it should be condemned if stated in Salat or Adhan since the emphasis on drawing a clear line between Shi'is and other Muslim sects could be justifiable given that the situation has changed since the time of the Prophet. Basically, it's definitely OK not to say it and safer that way but if you do, understand well that it isn't part of Sunneh. 

 

For our dear Salafi brothers here; times change. Our Prophet acted for his time, thus why we need Imams here and now to guide us for today's difficulties. It's not a matter of who knows best, but a matter of what would the Prophet and the Imams do if they are here today, with us. 

Edited by A_A

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Guest Pschological Warfare

I have a concern and a question which needs to be answered and I am having great difficulty in understanding your thought process.

As we know, Most of the Marja-e-Taqlid do not say we should not recite. One I quoted below say it is integral part of Adhan and Iqama. 

Quote

928. Ash hadu anna Amiral Muminina'Aliyyan Waliyyullah (I.e. I testify that the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (Peace be on him) is the vicegerent of Allah) is not a part of either Azan or Iqamah It is, however, better to pronounce it after Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasulul lah to seek Divine pleasure.

https://www.al-Islam.org/Islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/prayers#azan-and-iqamah

928. Ash hadu anna Amiral Mu'minina 'Aliyyan Waliyyullah ( I testify that the Commander of the faithful, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the vicegerent of Allah) is not a part of either Adhan or Iqamah. But it is preferable that it is pronounced after Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasulul lah with the niyyat of Qurbat.

http://www.Sistani.org/english/book/48/2216/

928 َوِل اًّليِع َن َّاُ هد َشَ ْا)Ash'hadu anna Aliyyan wali'ullah) (“I bear witness that Ali (Peace be upon him) is the vicegerent of God”) is not a part of the azan, nor the iqamah. However, since the guardianship of Amir al-Mu’menin (Peace be upon him) is the completion of the religion, to recite it in any state, including after the statement لل ََّّا ل ُسو ُرَ bear I“اَ ْش َهدُ ا َّن ُم َح َّمدً witness that Muhammad (Peace be upon him and his progeny) is the messenger of

God” is the best means of attaining Divine proximity.

http://www.Islamic-laws.com/download/Islamic Laws - Sheikh Wahid Khorasani.pdf

 

Q 452: What is your esteemed opinion on the third testimony for the master of believers, Imam Ali (a.), as being the commander and the leader, in the adhān and iqāmah of obligatory prayers?
A: Saying “Ashhadu anna ‘Aliyyan Waliyyullāh” in adhān and iqāmah with the intention of being a symbol for the Shī‘ah school of thought is good and important and it should be said only for the sake of nearness to Allah, but it is not a part of adhān and iqāmah. 

http://www.leader.ir/en/book/23

“Ash hadu anna Amiral Mu'mineena 'Aliyyan Waliyyullah” (I.e. I testify that the Commander of the faithful, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the vicegerent of Allah) is not a part of either Adhan or Iqamah. But it is preferable that it is pronounced after “Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasuloollah” with the intention of Qurbah.

http://www.alnajafi.org/books/43-a-concise-guide-of-Islamic-laws/143-rules-of-prayer.html

"Case: The phrase “Ash_hado an-na Aliy-yan waliy-yol-la>h” is the integral part of both adha>n and iqa>mah, as some narrations point to."

http://www.english.shirazi.ir/books/Islamic_Law_2013_SecondEdition.pdf

Having understood the issue, that NONE of the Marja-e-Taqlid are forbidding it in Adhan and Iqamah. There is a technical issue of the (Intention) based on their research. So, that would be a personal issue for the one reciting it either with the intention(Niyah) of Integral part or as intention of Qurbah. Weather they consider it a part or not is their personal issue which they would have to answer on the day of judgement. 

Who does this require that an Adhan and Iqama be recited in a Mosque without Ash hadu anna Amiral Mu'mineena 'Aliyyan Waliyyullah, ?

If Ash hadu anna Amiral Mu'mineena 'Aliyyan Waliyyullah is recited in the Adhan and Iqama, does it make some people so averse that they will start new centers to have an Adhan and Iqama with out Ash hadu anna Amiral Mu'mineena 'Aliyyan Waliyyullah? 

I hope I made myself clear, as I am a layman, kindly do not pay to much attention on words or literal translation. Understand the overall concept and overall issue in a logical and rational manner. 

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On 4/11/2020 at 9:54 AM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

As a Layman, If you believe in Taqlid this question should not even be an issue of debate among the layman with limited knowledge. Which defies the basic concept of Taqlid in Fiqi (Jurisprudence) issue. 

Completely agree.

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روي عن الامام جعفر الصادق (عليه السلام) انه قال: ( فإذا قال أحدكم لا اله إلاّ الله محمداً رسول الله ، فليقل : علي أمير المؤمنين). (الاحتجاج : 158

this narration and many like it have itlaqq which means they can be applied anywhere

This following report is from 300AH:

وروى محمد بن سليمان الكوفي القاضي المتوفى بعد الثلاثمائة هجري قمري في كتابه مناقب أمير المؤمنين قال: ((حدثنا محمد بن منصور عن عثمان بن ابي شيبة عن جرير عن المغيرة عن سماك بن سلمة قال: دخلت على كدير الضبي حين صليت الغداة فقالت لي امرأته: ادنو منه فإنه يصلي فسمعته يقول: سلام على النبي والوصي فقلت لا والله لا يراني عائد اليك

the above Hadith is from a Sunni source

 also, there are reports of the athan in shaam and egypt at the 300-400 AH of the third shahada. Before the Safavid period.

@Mahdavist @AmirioTheMuzzy

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I'm sure the Fatimids used it because their architecture often has the third shahada. Early consensus seems to be that it was rare and even considered ghuluww by Sheikh al-Saduq.

What always gets me is this: it is common knowledge that 'Umar removed hayya 'ala khayril 'amal from the adhan/iqama - so if the third testimoney did exist, why didn't 'Umar go ahead and take the bit about 'Ali (عليه السلام) out too? Surely the third testimony, if it was genuine, was much more harmful to the rule of the caliphs than hasten to the best of deeds! I mean 'Umar was instrumental in the overthrowing of Imam 'Ali right? People would then be constantly declaring Imam 'Ali as the wali of Allah 5 times a day? Surely he would of taken it out along with hayya 'ala khayril 'amal if it existed!

It seems logical to conclude that it was introduced way after the early era of the caliphs. Allahu 'alam.

This article has good reference on early opinions on the third testimony.

From Bida to Sunna, The Wilaya of Ali in the Shi'i Adhan

http://www.ltakim.com/Adhan.pdf

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Guest Pschological Warfare
On 4/28/2020 at 2:56 AM, gharib570 said:

What always gets me is this: it is common knowledge that 'Umar removed hayya 'ala khayril 'amal from the adhan/iqama - so if the third testimoney did exist, why didn't 'Umar go ahead and take the bit about 'Ali (عليه السلام) out too? Surely the third testimony, if it was genuine, was much more harmful to the rule of the caliphs than hasten to the best of deeds! I mean 'Umar was instrumental in the overthrowing of Imam 'Ali right? People would then be constantly declaring Imam 'Ali as the wali of Allah 5 times a day? Surely he would of taken it out along with hayya 'ala khayril 'amal if it existed!

It seems logical to conclude that it was introduced way after the early era of the caliphs. Allahu 'alam.

How did you justify this logic? 

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