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In the Name of God بسم الله
Mohammad313Ali

Imam Ali did not want the caliphate?

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In the video Hajji states the question that if Imam Ali was divinely appointed, why then did he tell the people who wanted him to be caliphate to go find someone else, as stated in Nahjul Balagha. 

Couldn’t the Imam have said instead the time is not suitable for him to be caliphate, etc 

Time stamp: 2:00 

@Mahdavist @313 Seeker

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Salam alaikum dear brother. I think people misunderstand what the caliphate was and it's actual status. 

An Imam is always an Imam, regardless of whether the people regard him as a caliph, curse him from the pulpits, lock him in prison or kill him and his family on the battlefield. It is a divinely appointed position which is not increased or decreased by the recognition of the masses. 

Caliphate in the Qur'an was a divinely appointed position, but after the time of the Prophet the people turned it into a man made concept without any religious basis or justification. There has never been any consistency or clear criteria for the selection of a caliph and for the succession of a caliph, which means that essentially the first caliph was not more or less legitimate than the likes of Muawiyah, Yazeed, Mutawakkil or the most recent Al Baghdadi. 

The position has no relevance for us in the school of Ahlul Bayt. 

 

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3 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

In the video Hajji states the question that if Imam Ali was divinely appointed, why then did he tell the people who wanted him to be caliphate to go find someone else, as stated in Nahjul Balagha. 

Couldn’t the Imam have said instead the time is not suitable for him to be caliphate, etc 

For the first caliphate, he (عليه السلام) in fact wrote to someone and I have read it but don't remember the source "Did you expect me to fight over the caliphate with you at saqeefa bani sada while leaving the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) unburied?". Its a solid and irrefutable point.

For the second caliphate, the second got nominated by the first.

For the third caliphate, they asked him to "rule by the Qur'an and sunnah, and the way of the sheikhain", at which he refused to the sunnah of the sheikhain part, so Uthman was appointed by the Shoora.

For the fourth caliphate, blood of caliphs was being spilled and the murder of wannabe caliphs like Zubair bin al-awam as well as his own martyrdom justifies his initial reluctance to become the fourth caliph.

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2 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

the murder of wannabe caliphs like Zubair bin al-awam as well as his own martyrdom justifies his initial reluctance to become the fourth caliph.

Could you elaborate on this it sounds like The Imam feared death God forbid

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5 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Could you elaborate on this it sounds like The Imam feared death God forbid

He said the caliphate had become like a six headed serpent that had already killed a caliph. The night before the battle of Jaml (camel) he cried a lot and said he did not want being party in the blood of Muslims being shed. Caliphate is temporal and Imamate is something entirely different. Monarchies stand upon piles of dead bodies, feuds and rivers of blood since the dawn of time. Who would want it while they feared Allah and accountability. A man like Ali (عليه السلام) who divorced this world three times each day and wanted nothing of it.

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@The Green Knight Pardon my ignorance, as I seek to gain insight from knowledgeable brothers as yourself. What were the major components which led The Imam ((عليه السلام)) with consideration of such realities to become the fourth caliphate nonetheless.

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... At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like the herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:

That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the Earth, nor (to make) mischief (therein); and the end is (best) for the pious ones. (Qur'an, 28:83)

Yes, by Allah, they had heard it and understood it but the world appeared glittering in their eyes and its embellishments seduced them. Behold, by Him who split the grain (to grow) and created living beings, if people had not come to me and supporters had not exhausted the argument and if there had been no pledge of Allah with the learned to the effect that they should not acquiesce in the gluttony of the oppressor and the hunger of the oppressed I would have cast the rope of Caliphate on its own shoulders, and would have given the last one the same treatment as to the first one. Then you would have seen that in my view this world of yours is no better than the sneezing of a goat. 

(Extract from Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah - Nahj-ul-Balagha, Sermon 3)

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5 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

In the video Hajji states the question that if Imam Ali was divinely appointed, why then did he tell the people who wanted him to be caliphate to go find someone else, as stated in Nahjul Balagha. 

Couldn’t the Imam have said instead the time is not suitable for him to be caliphate, etc 

Time stamp: 2:00 

@Mahdavist @313 Seeker

As usual, Shias stand no chance in the face of the Truth.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

@The Green Knight Pardon my ignorance, as I seek to gain insight from knowledgeable brothers as yourself. What were the major components which led The Imam ((عليه السلام)) with consideration of such realities to become the fourth caliphate nonetheless.

All the people. He realized it was what Allah wanted of him.

Its perfectly alright to ask. Nothing to pardon.

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43 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

As usual, Shias stand no chance in the face of the Truth.  

You like to drop quick comments in hopes of being the spark to a greater fire of aggravation, your remarks are cheap.

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15 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

You like to drop quick comments in hopes of being the spark to a greater fire of aggravation, your remarks are cheap.

Yes, they are cheap.  :)

It is also because I am just having fun and consider these arguments a big joke.

I am really not on anyone's side.    

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes, they are cheap.  :)

It is also because I am just having fun and consider these arguments a big joke.

I am really not on anyone's side.    

 

 

Most arguments are indeed big jokes, however, the purpose of this thread was to give insight into a point that arose in which the respected brothers have adequately responded to. 

Although you have the freedom of choosing your own spiritual conclusion and the freedom to comment on any thread with the means in which you deem fit, be it jokingly or not. I hope that you can in future times respect those who are earnestly struggling and seeking to gain knowledge. 

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23 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Most arguments are indeed big jokes, however, the purpose of this thread was to give insight into a point that arose in which the respected brothers have adequately responded to. 

Although you have the freedom of choosing your own spiritual conclusion and the freedom to comment on any thread with the means in which you deem fit, be it jokingly or not. I hope that you can in future times respect those who are earnestly struggling and seeking to gain knowledge. 

I respect your earnestness in a fun way.

by the way, in Reza Shah’s new book on Imam Ali (عليه السلام) he discusses this very same point you brought up in this video.  He explains why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not interested in leadership and that it is a mistake a lot of Shias make to think he was.  

I recommend it.  
 

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I respect your earnestness in a fun way.

by the way, in Reza Shah’s new book on Imam Ali (عليه السلام) he discusses this very same point you brought up in this video.  He explains why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not interested in leadership and that it is a mistake a lot of Shias make to think he was.  

I recommend it.  
 

Leadership of people who snatched his very basic right?

Leadership of people, who confisticated Fadak?

Leadership of people, who opposed him in siffen?

Leadership of people, to get blame of Hz Usman's murder?

Leadership of people, to fight with Hz Ayesha in Jamal?

Leadership of people, who would neither listen to him, not obey him?

[Don't confuse this by Concept of Imamah of Shias]

Its just about taking up the government. And there were plenty of reasons to say so.

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21 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

In the video Hajji states the question that if Imam Ali was divinely appointed, why then did he tell the people who wanted him to be caliphate to go find someone else, as stated in Nahjul Balagha. 

Couldn’t the Imam have said instead the time is not suitable for him to be caliphate, etc 

Many answers  can be presented on this matter. In short my view is given below:

1.  Imam Ali AS was already appointed Ameer ul momineen, Wali and Maula of the believers  by the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in his life, so Imam Ali as did not intend to be a people chosen caliph like first three caliphs thus he replied in this manner. But just to save the needy &  weak Muslims  and to serve the Islam he accepted it.

2. I also have in mind the saying of Imam AS that my torn shoe is more valuable than this (man made) caliphate / authority.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 4/7/2020 at 3:49 AM, Mohammad313Ali said:

In the video Hajji states the question that if Imam Ali was divinely appointed, why then did he tell the people who wanted him to be caliphate to go find someone else, as stated in Nahjul Balagha. 

Time stamp: 2:00 

@Mahdavist @313 Seeker

salam dear brother thanks for taggine me,

I listened up to 7 minutes and if you want me to comment on other aspects of the video let me know.

When it comes to Imam Ali refusing, if that was true, then isn't that like the prediction in suni books that Imam Mahdi will also refuse to be Khalifa? It is a fact that they believe that. To the extent that their scholars all believe that anybody who claims to be Mahdi, can't be it, because they know he will refuse leadership. (I think they will all agree that Imam Mahdi will be divinely appointed Khalifa, or?)

Secondly, the more a person is repulsed by the idea of rulership and power, the more they are actually suitable. It is a lot of work and trouble. Only those who look for worldly rewards and bling-bling will want this. Somebody like Imam Ali did not touch one coin in the Ummahs treasure chest that wasn't his. He did not use any of the commonwealth for himself. The same was for Prophet Mohammed, whose lifestyle didn't change much after he became basically a Prophet/emperor. So, Imam Ali refusing is a sign from God that he is divinely chosen.

 

On 4/7/2020 at 3:49 AM, Mohammad313Ali said:

Couldn’t the Imam have said instead the time is not suitable for him to be caliphate, etc 

Absolutely! He probably knew it was a hopeless case anyway, as they all knew he wasn't the Mahdi. He (عليه السلام) could probably see that the people asking him to be the official caliph were a miserable bunch. They were not like the 70+ people who followed Hussein to his martyrdom. So chances are that he was happy in his comfort zone of taqya and being the de-facto leader of Islam without having to take on the role of a politician and ruler. He probably didn't feel like ruling those people who ended up letting him down, which he knew would happen. And, of course maybe he thought it was the wrong timing, as it would look peculiar with what happened with the Egyptians killing Uthman and so on.

Edited by 313 Seeker

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