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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ejaz

Was Imam Ali against intercession?

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In the Last Will of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., he states:

Quote

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the Earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

Source: https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/letter-father-son-last-will-Ali-ibn-abi-talib

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46 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Tsk tsk I'm sure Allama Baqir majlisi knows the interpretation of these words best we should follow his advice.Not pay attention to words of the Imam (عليه السلام) 

I suppose we should follow this instead (from your ShiaChat signature): 

Quote

[siyar A'laam an-Nubalaa (4/94)]

What's weirder is you taking Imam Ali's (a) last will to be perfectly preserved and accurate.

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You know how the “can’t ask from Allah alone” patrol will spin this right? Imam Ali is talking to another fellow masoom. Not a commoner like us. They have no guard between Allah, but we sinners do.

Just playing devil’s advocate. I agree with the words of Imam Ali.

Edited by 786:)

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59 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Imam Ali is talking to another fellow masoom. Not a commoner like us. They have no guard between Allah, but we sinners do.

By this logic, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) doesn't even have to give advice to Imam Hasan (عليه السلام), since Imam Hasan is masoom. 

Edit: If we assume that the argument isn't truthful

My point is that saying the Masum don't do Tawassul (of themselves, lol), does not logically assume that 'we sinners' have a guard between us and Allah. You see how there is no relation there? Being able to do Tawassul of the Masum doesn't imply/infer that we are unable to ask Allah without Tawassul.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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19 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I suppose we should follow this instead (from your ShiaChat signature): 

What's weirder is you taking Imam Ali's (a) last will to be perfectly preserved and accurate.

ITS a useful work for some snippets but not my favorite,  Dhahabi is a little anti-Shia

Right anything [ even nahjul balagah ] that goes against your sect is suspect yet historical reports of similar quality are the gospel truth if  it makes Umar look like a monster 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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2 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

ITS a useful biographical dictionary but not my favorite,  Dhahabi is a little anti-Shia

Right anything [ even nahjul balagah ] that goes against your sect is suspect yet historical reports of similar quality are the gospel truth it makes Umar look like a monster 

So your Allama Majlisi point is mute then?

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2 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

How ? Mute ?

If we don't know the (historical) context or authenticity we should verify it somehow... Yet you conflate this with: [not paying attention to the words of the Imam]

1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Not pay attention to words of the Imam (عليه السلام) 

 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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7 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

If we don't know the (historical) context or authenticity we should verify it somehow... Yet you conflate this with:

 

Ok so you obviously don't get sarcasm 

Anyho to the point of context ,maybe we should use that nuanced approach towards all historical reports ?

There is no one uniform standard for authenticity across the board for all Muslims so what is authentic for Sunnis will not neccesarily be for Shias and vice versa.Furthermore sectarian biases are used to strengthen or weaken narraters so it's not a perfect science by any means.

Context again means a certain report if not taken literally is open for interpretation and who is to say one is neccesarily better than other esp since [ refer to above] we cannot agree on one standard of authenticity 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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Intercessions is a belief which all Muslims have accepted even wahabbis because it is supported from Qur'an and ahadith. 

By the sentence, Imam 'Ali (a) meant that God's mercy upon people is not like people's so that when they do not know some people, they refer to some people to introduce them to those people so that they can reach their wishes. 

To forgive sins, God invites people to ask the Prophet (s) to make du'a for their forgiveness,


"Had they, when they wronged themselves, come to you and pleaded to Allah for forgiveness, and the Apostle had pleaded for forgiveness for them, they would have surely found Allah all-clement, all-merciful." Qur'an, 4:64

 

Edited by Nadeemsayyed110

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3 minutes ago, Nadeemsayyed110 said:

 Intercessions is a belief which all Muslims have accepted even wahabbis because it is supported from Qur'an and hadith 

 

 

 

 

Agreed there is a very good argument to be made in its defense 

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8 minutes ago, Nadeemsayyed110 said:

Intercessions is a belief which all Muslims have accepted even wahabbis because it is supported from Qur'an and ahadith. 

More accurately, intercession wasn't even a contentious belief prior to Wahabbi influence.

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Wahhabi's Questions

Tawassul is approved by most Muslims, whether Shi'a or Sunni;[21] Wahhabis have denied and criticized Tawassul;[22] some of their critics are as follow:

Tawassul and Tawhid

The first criticism Wahhabis make about Tawassul is that Tawassul contradicts the unity of God because the servant should only ask God for help and asking other than God is polytheism. To prove illegitimacy of Tawassul, Ibn Taymiyya has sometimes referred to verses of the Qur'an, including verses 56 and 57 of Sura al-Isra':[23]

“Say, Invoke those whom you claim [to be gods] besides Him. They have no power to remove your distress nor to bring about any change [in your state]. They [themselves] are the ones who supplicate, seeking a recourse to their Lord, whoever is nearer [to Him], expecting His mercy and fearing His punishment. Indeed your Lord's punishment is a thing to beware of.”

— Qur'an 17:56-57

and

“You [alone] do we worship, and to You [alone] do we turn for help.”

— Qur'an 1:5

However, looking carefully, one finds no relation between these verses and Tawassul, since they are about rejection of the lordship of the polytheists' gods and their incompetence for being worshiped and they have no relation with resorting to holy means in order to become close to God. Also, verse 5 of the Sura al-Fatiha rejects asking help from other than God, believing in the means independently, not rejecting asking God through the means; just like in the noble Qur'an, seeking helps from the prayer and other things are mentioned.[24]

Intellectually, making Tawassul never requires polytheism; since firstly, asking help from someone or something does not mean worshiping that person or thing. The system of creation is based on the mutual effects of things and means over each other and of course, they receive their effects from God and none of them can make any influence independently. Since, seeking help from material means and people is not polytheism as we do not believe in their independence, using non-material means, if we believe in their dependence, would not be polytheism. Believing in the unity of God requires that while one benefits from the means, he is aware about their origins and dependence to God of the world and this is the belief in the unity of God.[25]

In addition to above references, some other verses of the Qur'an have been referred to for justifying the impermissibility of Tawassul[26] including verse 3 of Sura al-Zumar:

“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] 'We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah,' Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

— Qur'an 39:3

And verse 37 of Sura al-Saba':

“It is not your wealth, nor your children, that will bring you close to Us in nearness, except those who have faith and act righteously. It is they for whom there will be a twofold reward for what they did, and they will be secure in lofty abodes.”

— Qur'an 34:37

But the first verse (39:3), only rejects worshiping anything other than God, not becoming close to God through resorting to the righteous without being worshiped. About the second verse (34:37), resorting to the Prophets (a) and friends of God is mentioned among righteous deeds.[27]

Making Tawassul to the Prophet (s) after his Demise

Ibn Taymiyya said that benefiting from du'as of the Prophet (s) and the righteous is permissible only during their lifetimes and after they pass away, they cannot do anything and resoring to them is not permissible.

However, this idea of Ibn Taymiyya contradicts with the Islamic idea of life after death. The life of Prophets (a) and the friends of God continues after they move on to the world of Barzakh (middle world). It is obvious that the Prophets (a), who have higher positions than the martyrs, will continue their lives after this world.[28] Moreover, from the Islamic viewpoint, death is not the end and destruction of human being, but moving from one world to another.[29]

The same as one can ask the Prophet (s) to make du'a and ask God for the person's forgiveness during his lifetime, he (s) can be asked for the same request after he (a) has passed away; since, according to the Qur'an and traditions, connection between one living in this world and souls of the people in Barzakh is possible.

The dialogues between the two Prophets Salih (a) and Shu'ayb (a) with their perished people,[30] the fact that God orders His Prophet (s) in the Qur'an to speak with the previous Prophets (a),[31] and the conversation of the Prophet (s) and Imam 'Ali (a) with those who were killed in the battles of Badr and Jamal[32] are evidences for the above claim.

Tawassul and Bid'a

Considering Tawassul as Bid'a (impermissible innovation) is a claim of Ibn Taymiyya and Wahhabis.

From the viewpoint of the school of the Ahl al-Bayt (a) and with the many authentic hadiths, du'as and ziyarahs narrated from the Infallibles (a) about making Tawassul to the position of them, it is obvious that the claim of Wahhabis and Ibn Taymiyya is not plausible. Moreover, studying the conducts of Muslims and even non-Shi'ites proves that after the demise of the Prophet (s), they did make Tawassul to the noble Prophet (s) the same as they made Tawassul to his du'as during his lifetime; about which there are stories mentioned about Imam 'Ali (a) and Abu Bakr.

Accordingly, the following stories can be mentioned: 'Umar's resorting 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib to perform the prayer for raining (Istisqa'),[33] the Prophet's (s) aunt, Safiyya's resorting to him by reciting some poems in his demise,[34] a man's resorting to the Prophet (s) at the time of 'Uthman's caliphate using 'Uthman b. Hunayf's advice[35] and Bilal b. Harith's resorting to the Prophet (s) to pray for raining.[36]

According to Zayni Dahlan,[37] studying du'as and prayers of Muslims in the past, shows many of their cases of Tawassul. Al-Haythami has mentioned some poems of Shafi'I in which the Ahl al-Bayt (a) have clearly been mentioned as the means to become close to God.[38] According to a report, in a conversation between Malik b. Anas and al-Mansur al-Dawaniqi, Malik b. Anas taught al-Mansur how to visit the grave of the noble Prophet (s) and make Tawassul to him.[39]

Even if the authenticity of some Sunni narrations about Tawassul is not proved, many of them show that such practice of Tawassul has been common since the time of the Companions and later periods and has been regarded as an authentic principle. Al-Samhudi[40] tells different stories about those who made Tawassul to the Prophet (s) near his shrine and their requests were answered.[41]

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Tawassul#Wahhabi.27s_Questions

Edit: please read the parts that I bolded.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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I feel as though the early Muslims had a better, more intuitive, grasp of what the Soul is, and what Barzakh is...  a knowledge that has decreased among laypeople over time, as we become more separate and distant from our Islamic traditions. 

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3 hours ago, Ejaz said:

In the Last Will of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., he states:

Source: https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/letter-father-son-last-will-Ali-ibn-abi-talib

Means that the door of tawbah is open for everyone who repent and return and seek forgiveness and keep in right way, for such a people intercession is not needed and his/her sins are already forgiven. 

For others they need intercession if they have sinned and not repented. So no, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is not against intercession.

Edited by Abu Nur

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I'm afraid people made the typical mistake here dealing with Imam Ali's will and the word "intercession", because Tawassul is also intercession and Shifa'at is also translated as intercession. Its an easy mistake to make. Tawassul is the intercession used in prayers by the person praying, while Shifa'at can only be given to a person by those allowed by Allah to intercede on the day of Qiyamah. The latter is imperative imo, without it no one reaches jannah on their own.

 

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5 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

I'm afraid people made the typical mistake here dealing with Imam Ali's will and the word "intercession", because Tawassul is also intercession and Shifa'at is also translated as intercession. Its an easy mistake to make. Tawassul is the intercession used in prayers by the person praying, while Shifa'at can only be given to a person by those allowed by Allah to intercede on the day of Qiyamah. The latter is imperative imo, without it no one reaches jannah on their own.

 

There is a third relevant term here which is istighatha , and is often presented as tawassul even though it isn't necessarily the same thing. In fact one can question if the former has any support from authentic sources (or for that matter any early sources at all).

 

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11 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

I'm afraid people made the typical mistake here dealing with Imam Ali's will and the word "intercession", because Tawassul is also intercession and Shifa'at is also translated as intercession. Its an easy mistake to make. Tawassul is the intercession used in prayers by the person praying, while Shifa'at can only be given to a person by those allowed by Allah to intercede on the day of Qiyamah. The latter is imperative imo, without it no one reaches jannah on their own.

 

In my post I refer to all of them, tawassul including. 

Edited by Abu Nur

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