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In the Name of God بسم الله
FollowerofIslam

Should I Reject a Woman for Marriage if She Wears Makeup?

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Assalam Alaykum br/sis!

The title says it all, not much to say. I am in going to the stage of looking for a woman for marriage inshallah and I know that many scholars forbid the wearing of makeup so I still don’t know why many ladies do it... However, I know that I will encounter some girls who will be wearing makeup. The question is, do I completely reject them based on this?

I mean it is a sin and a bad example for our future daughters...

Seeking advice from both brothers and sisters!

All the best,

your brother is Islam.

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28 minutes ago, FollowerofIslam said:

The title says it all, not much to say. I am in going to the stage of looking for a woman for marriage inshallah and I know that many scholars forbid the wearing of makeup so I still don’t know why many ladies do it... However, I know that I will encounter some girls who will be wearing makeup. The question is, do I completely reject them based on this?

Salam. You have to consider that some girls will wear makeup at their own wedding, and that is cultural according to some families, because makeup on her wedding day is proof that she has become a bride, and you probably cannot escape the photo shoot. 

When you have an arranged meeting with her and her family to discuss marriage, you can let them know that you want your wife to not wear makeup outside the home. See if they agree to that. 

Look for a wife -- with no make up on -- in the mosque, Islamic Center or Hussainiya. At least you know she is observant of the no makeup in a religious setting.  

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5 hours ago, ShiaChat Mod said:

Look for a wife -- with no make up on -- in the mosque, Islamic Center or Hussainiya. At least you know she is observant of the no makeup in a religious setting.  

they should be observant everytime everyday 24/7. This is not only for during Ramadan or Muharram. these are clear rules to prevent society from corruption which has already happened on so many levels.

 

As for the brother, from my own personal observation, you will never find a woman who will follow all the rules/fatwas of ayatullahs. There will always be something. No one is perfect.

This is I guess how they are created, I don't think they have a bad intention for their choices but rather it's a combination of how they are created and how the society/friends/tv has influenced them.

Women are more attached to this dunya than men, that's how I find them.

As a man we are supposed to lead them and hence why they are supposed to obey their husband.

I wish you the best brother in finding a pious wife.

Edited by AkhiraisReal

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Personally, I have met a very noble woman who fears Allah much, prays salah much, and loves her family as much as she does her Rabb, despite wearing make-up and living in a western civilization.  Someone's taqwa in Allah cannot be judged by whether she wears make-up or not.

Take my advice with a grain of salt.  I'm not well-versed with what women should be like.

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48 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

She can be persuaded not to wear makeup if you insist, otherwise you are just making life difficult on yourself. Refusing her reflects more on your character than it does on her character.

Just something to think about.@FollowerofIslam

Actually it can reflect on his own wisdom although I do not disagree with you brother.

Regards,
Ahmed

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27 minutes ago, AlmondJoy680 said:

Actually it can reflect on his own wisdom although I do not disagree with you brother.

Regards,
Ahmed

I would say in cases like this, a lack of a wisdom is a lack of character. There are far more serious reasons to reject a woman (e.g. How she treats others, greed, abusiveness, etc.)

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On 4/2/2020 at 6:27 AM, The Green Knight said:

Listen. Find a wife whom Allah loves and whom you can love and who can love you back and also loves Allah. Like Umm e Dharr the companion wife of Abu Dharr who died together in the desert of Rabza after being exiled by Uthman. Forget makeup and everything else they are not indicative of anything important.

in my opinion brother, looks do matter to some degree. its necessary for the beginning of the relationship. 

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Teeheehee.. wondering what men will do in this era of filtered photos and face contouring make up. 

Things are a lot less complicated in less modern societies: unmarried girls DO NOT do make up, waxing, threading, hair coloring, intricate henna or any extra fluff and feathers .. so you get to see exactly what you will be marrying (well minus the hijab after marriage). 

On the other hand, for all the arguments about men being inherently polygamous, make up could be useful. New look/"new" wife every other day.

 

:ko:

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Everyone has given good advice - you won’t ever be able to find someone who is perfect. I don’t think it’s even possible for us to find someone who is our perfect ideal with all the characteristics we want. I think you should just look for someone you get along with well, is mature and kind, and has faith. Other things may come later.

On 4/1/2020 at 8:16 PM, AkhiraisReal said:

As for the brother, from my own personal observation, you will never find a woman who will follow all the rules/fatwas of ayatullahs. There will always be something. No one is perfect.

This is I guess how they are created, I don't think they have a bad intention for their choices but rather it's a combination of how they are created and how the society/friends/tv has influenced them.

What do you mean by the second part? Men are created the same way-none can be “perfect” and there are many people, even religious ones, who sometimes do the wrong thing. 

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On 4/2/2020 at 3:27 AM, The Green Knight said:

Listen. Find a wife whom Allah loves and whom you can love and who can love you back and also loves Allah. Like Umm e Dharr the companion wife of Abu Dharr who died together in the desert of Rabza after being exiled by Uthman. Forget makeup and everything else they are not indicative of anything important.

Fully agree! We should be focusing on the person from inside, if she's a trustworthy and a decent person.

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10 hours ago, BlueInk said:

in my opinion brother, looks do matter to some degree. its necessary for the beginning of the relationship. 

This is a profoundly incorrect statement. Looks have nothing to do with a relationship and love between spouses, unless its a material or western sort of relationship involving hedonism. When you are sick or very tired or in some other difficulty in life and your pretty spouse doesn't care then you will remember this piece of advice. It is actually a hadith by Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that a believer's marriage proposal's chief merit should be taqwa and purity of faith, while someone who considers other qualities as the chief merit is ruined (rough translation). If someone is unfaithful to their Owner and Creator then how can they be faithful or trustworthy to His creatures? Looks are often very misleading.

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On 4/24/2020 at 5:54 AM, haraf said:

Everyone has given good advice - you won’t ever be able to find someone who is perfect. I don’t think it’s even possible for us to find someone who is our perfect ideal with all the characteristics we want. I think you should just look for someone you get along with well, is mature and kind, and has faith. Other things may come later.

What do you mean by the second part? Men are created the same way-none can be “perfect” and there are many people, even religious ones, who sometimes do the wrong thing. 

Yes neither of the partners are perfect and marriage is supposed to fill the flaws of each partner.

What I meant was that I believe women are meant to be guided by their husband. That doesn't mean abusing the woman. With great power comes great responsibility.

The man will be responsible for his actions and leadership.

That's what I believe and you will find many that agree and many that disagree. I dont mind them, everyone is different.

No one is perfect, but if one has taqwa of Allah then I believe that will be enough.

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4 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

What I meant was that I believe women are meant to be guided by their husband.

Hey brother,

Also women guide their husbands, as well as their children who will become future husbands and wives. I don't think that men are wiser or more knowledgeable in things just because of their gender. Ideally both guide each other depending on each persons strength and understanding.

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On 4/24/2020 at 12:34 PM, 313 Seeker said:

Hey brother,

Also women guide their husbands, as well as their children who will become future husbands and wives. I don't think that men are wiser or more knowledgeable in things just because of their gender. Ideally both guide each other depending on each persons strength and understanding.

ofcourse. Both have their role and responsiblity. But the wife is required to obey her husband

I would like to quote a brother that had a very beautiful reply in one of my threads:

from @Soldiers and Saffron

"Males and females do not have equal rights over each other. Their rights are different as per the holy Qur'an.

There are many more rights that a man has over his wife than the one you mentioned brother.

One of the big one being that you have authority over her while she does not have authority over you. Meaning that you can forbid for her whatever you deem fit that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not made wajib and she has to obey. That is the authority God has given husbands over their wives, though all this authority means that they have a lot of accountability, they will have to answer for everything. Very dangerous. That is why its important to find a man who has taqwa, fear for the wrath of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so that he does not abuse his rights.

For the female it is very important to get to know the man before marriage because once you enter marriage (which is a contract(!)) you will have to trust the judgement of your husband. A wife can still voice her opinion on a matter but the husband has no obligation to change his mind because of it (in most cases, theres exceptions), thats why kindness is an important quality to look for in a man.

Both have rights like you say, but they are not equal. Men and women are not the same in Islam, that does not mean that one is better than the other, but that they are no the same, together they are best."

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1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

This is a profoundly incorrect statement. Looks have nothing to do with a relationship and love between spouses, unless its a material or western sort of relationship involving hedonism. When you are sick or very tired or in some other difficulty in life and your pretty spouse doesn't care then you will remember this piece of advice. It is actually a hadith by Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that a believer's marriage proposal's chief merit should be taqwa and purity of faith, while someone who considers other qualities as the chief merit is ruined (rough translation). If someone is unfaithful to their Owner and Creator then how can they be faithful or trustworthy to His creatures? Looks are often very misleading.

Are you certain of this? I have serious doubts about this line of reasoning. In fact, it does not seem logical.

Are you married?

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5 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

"Males and females do not have equal rights over each other. Their rights are different as per the holy Qur'an.

There are many more rights that a man has over his wife than the one you mentioned brother.

One of the big one being that you have authority over her while she does not have authority over you. Meaning that you can forbid for her whatever you deem fit that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not made wajib and she has to obey.

From what I know, the Quran doesn't specify those things, and the general rules in Islam I would also apply in a marriage.

Those rules include:

- enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong, regardless of men or women, or husband or wife. If a wife orders you to do something that is right, then you must obey her. At the same time, if a man orders his wife to worship others than Allah, then she most probably should not obey.

- there is no compulsion (ikrah) in deen, therefore we actually may not force our wives to obey. In the end they are still humans and free.

Wives have more rights over their husbands in certain aspects, and they have the right to order their husbands to give them those special rights. The atmosphere of oppressive slavery, where women must obey their husbands while husbands do not have to obey their wives is just unrealistic and unfair. If the right is with the woman, if the truth is with her, then her husband better obey. 

Physical strength is no measure of power whatsoever, because our wives can easily kill us in our sleep, poison us, or psychologically control their men like puppets.

Whoever is right, must be the guide and must be obeyed regardless if husband or wife. That's my opinion. Because whoever is right has Allah by their side, and that gives them all the authority and superiority they need to be guides, regardless of whether they are husband or wife.

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On 4/24/2020 at 1:19 PM, 313 Seeker said:

From what I know, the Quran doesn't specify those things, and the general rules in Islam I would also apply in a marriage.

This is not my best subject, I just take what I read from islamic books and fatwas from the different ayatullahs.

For example if i remember correctly, a man is responsible to financially provide for his wife, shelter, food, clothes etc. And if she wants a maid, she has the right for it and the husband can't make objections if i remember correctly.

again, this is not my best subject nor something that I know much about.

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5 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

This is not my best subject, I just take what I read from islamic books and fatwas from the different ayatullahs.

For example if i remember correctly, a man is responsible to financially provide for his wife, shelter, food, clothes etc. And if she wants a maid, she has the right for it and the husband can't make objections if i remember correctly.

again, this is not my best subject nor something that I know much about.

Yes it's not that one has "more" rights over the other, they are just different. But the rights can be demanded by both, and must be obeyed by the other.

For instance, if a wife tells a husband "stop looking at forbidden things!" then he should obey, although neither party can actually be forced to do anything. If they don't like it, then they should divorce. (Or put up with it patiently, depending on the situation)

Edited by 313 Seeker

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1 hour ago, BlueInk said:

Are you certain of this? I have serious doubts about this line of reasoning. In fact, it does not seem logical.

Are you married?

Yes and yes. Its from hadiths.

Are you a female?

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

Yes it's not that one has "more" rights over the other, they are just different. But the rights can be demanded by both, and must be obeyed by the other.

For instance, if a wife tells a husband "stop looking at forbidden things!" then he should obey, although neither party can actually be forced to do anything. If they don't like it, then they should divorce. (Or put up with it patiently, depending on the situation)

Hazrat Imam Zain al-Abideen ((عليه السلام).) has mentioned the rights of a wife thus:

“It is the right of your wife that you should know that Allah has made her as a medium of peace and comfort for you and a medium of attachment and love for you. Both of you are each other’s need. You should thank Allah for this great bounty and both of you should praise Him. You should know that this is a grace of Allah upon you. Hence, it is incumbent upon you that you thank Allah and have good fellowship with her. Although your rights upon her are greater and her obedience to you is obligatory in all your likes and dislikes so long as it is not a sin. So she has a right that you treat her with love, mercy, attachment and affection. She is the center of your comfort and the medium of your pleasure. She is a great bounty.”

Tuhaf al-Uqool, p. 268

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1 hour ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Hazrat Imam Zain al-Abideen ((عليه السلام).) has mentioned the rights of a wife thus:

“It is the right of your wife that you should know that Allah has made her as a medium of peace and comfort for you and a medium of attachment and love for you. Both of you are each other’s need. You should thank Allah for this great bounty and both of you should praise Him. You should know that this is a grace of Allah upon you. Hence, it is incumbent upon you that you thank Allah and have good fellowship with her. Although your rights upon her are greater and her obedience to you is obligatory in all your likes and dislikes so long as it is not a sin. So she has a right that you treat her with love, mercy, attachment and affection. She is the center of your comfort and the medium of your pleasure. She is a great bounty.”

Tuhaf al-Uqool, p. 268

I agree with everything except the one sided part of obedience, which insinuates that women are not allowed to express themselves or follow the part outlined in the Quran of enjoyning what's right and forbidding what's wrong. I don't see why the obedience in "all your likes as long as they are not a sin", shouldn't go both ways. I don't see that this unfair mentality is in line with what I know of Quran and ahlulbayt. All the rights that are listed in this hadith can be perfectly well reversed and would still apply. 

The part that says "his rights are more", doesn't explain more in what. And it doesn't make sense because in many ways we all know wives have more rights over men in certain things, than men over women. So it doesn't make sense and isn't practical nor realistic.

Here is a guy who also preaches how women have to obey their husbands and what it boils down to for many people discussing this is all about sexual slavery and abuse.

 

 

Edited by 313 Seeker

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

 I don't see why the obedience in "all your likes as long as they are not a sin", shouldn't go both ways. I don't see that this unfair mentality is in line with what I know of Quran and ahlulbayt. All the rights that are listed in this hadith can be perfectly well reversed and would still apply. 

The part that says "his rights are more", doesn't explain more in what. And it doesn't make sense because in many ways we all know wives have more rights over men in certain things, than men over women. So it doesn't make sense and isn't practical nor realistic.

Islam has made some rights "one sided" so as to create a balance and order in life. Perhaps we can also ask, why is the right of divorce, by default, only given to a man in a marriage, and not both parties in equal measure? Does this mean Islam thinks all women, irrespective of their piety and wisdom would abuse this right and throw divorces around right, left and centre?

Again, why is the right to "allow conception" that of a woman in a permanent marriage, and that of a man in a temporary marriage? Does this seem "fair" that a woman in a permanent marriage should be given so much "power" to decide whether or not they should have kids?

A lot of rights and duties in Islam are there to regulate and balance our relationships, but not to rule them. For relationships between humans are far far far above the contract spelt out in a marriage, and it is expected that the bulk of their interaction will come from their mutual consideration, kindness, empathy, etc as opposed to the strict contractual lines. (Again, note.. for a purely contractual marriage say a temporary one, a person is allowed to strip aside all emotions etc and stick to the bare "terms" of the agreement).

A man being given more rights and power and authority in a relationship is not meant to lopside it into some sort of bondage arrangement. Rather it is to guide the relationship and have a leader and the one led. (Remember the saying, you can't have an army of generals?)

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8 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Here is a guy who also preaches how women have to obey their husbands and what it boils down to for many people discussing this is all about sexual slavery and abuse.

you make women right in shia Islam equal to wahabi barbaric viewpoint about women :ko:

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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6 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

A man being given more rights and power and authority in a relationship is not meant to lopside it into some sort of bondage arrangement. Rather it is to guide the relationship and have a leader and the one led. (Remember the saying, you can't have an army of generals?)

As you said, there should be a balance of different rights, based on the reality. The reality is also that it's not at all the case that men are always given "more" rights. More rights in what exactly? Is there a finite list of rights, where the list continues with men with more bullets? We can't really make a final list of rights and quantify who has "more". But what we can say for fact is that men and women have more rights than each other in certain aspects. What does it help or what base in reality does it have to say "more rights", just for the sake of "more"?  Women have more rights than their male counterparts in many areas, and the opposite is also true. That's the only thing that counts, and will help create an atmosphere of equality and fairness. Just saying "I have more rights", without even specifying in what, is just a pretext to creating superiority complexes that are based on gender and not in actual knowledge, wisdom or righteousness. The mentally of sexism, racism, or claiming more rights based on other physical states, is exactly what the prophet stood against. Each one is superior in their way.

The same counts for "power" and "authority". From my own experience I've seen that in many, if not half of all marriages, the women are the ones "with the pants on". At the same time the men are happy with this situation, and it suits their character. The other half of men who are naturally the leaders, you'll find that a lot of the time the women take over power, especially when the husband is sick, weak, or away. At the same time relationships often seem like the man is in charge from outside, but the reality looks very different from the inside. The clever woman knows how to make her man look good, and appear like he's in charge, while she is actually controlling from the background. We can go into this topic of "power" in length, but I believe that not many people will deny that women can be the power brokers of many a successful marriages, depending on the situation and personality of themselves and their husbands. So saying that Allah has "given" men more authority and power is simply not true in a large part of relationships. 

So, I would like to emphasize that saying that men have "more" rights is not only unprovable, but there is no practical use to such an open and pointless statement. The only thing it can result in is in the man puffing up his chest and walk around like he's the boss, without actually having anything tangible to claim this right. Our only claim to leadership regardless to age, gender, tribe, race, class, etc is piousness. Whoever is right has the God given right to lead. That's in line with the clear commandments of the Quran and the ahlulbayt.

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

you make women right in shia Islam equal to wahabi barbaric viewpoint about women :ko:

 

Actually I am the one arguing against such mentality of jahileya. In essence this Wahabi is saying the same as mainstream shias, which is that men have more rights and that women "must obey", because they are ordered by men.

This means that according to this unfair mentality men don't need to obey women, just because they are women, even if their order is in line with halal action. This is total pagan inherited practice in my opinion.

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Definition of obedience of women in Shia Islam is completly different from Wahabi & Sunni definition also in main stream Shia we don't have torturing & hitting of women that if it happens between shia it's because of a wrong culture & tradition of shia community but it has no base in shia teachings but hitting & torturing women in wahabism or somehow sunni Islam has a base in their hadith sources that majority of theses narrations are backing to tradition of second caliph about women that he was treating with women based on his Jahileya background but treating of our prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imams (عليه السلام) clearly was against Jahileya but in sunni books tradition of Jahileya in sunni sources forged in of prophet Muhammad (pbu) to justify babaric actions of second caliph against women.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Definition of obedience of women in Shia Islam is completly different from Wahabi & Sunni definition

From the base and essence of the matter they don't differ as long as we base authority on gender, race, age, color, tribe, etc.

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21 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

As you said, there should be a balance of different rights, based on the reality. The reality is also that it's not at all the case that men are always given "more" rights. More rights in what exactly? Is there a finite list of rights, where the list continues with men with more bullets? We can't really make a final list of rights and quantify who has "more". But what we can say for fact is that men and women have more rights than each other in certain aspects. What does it help or what base in reality does it have to say "more rights", just for the sake of "more"?  Women have more rights than their male counterparts in many areas, and the opposite is also true. That's the only thing that counts, and will help create an atmosphere of equality and fairness. Just saying "I have more rights", without even specifying in what, is just a pretext to creating superiority complexes that are based on gender and not in actual knowledge, wisdom or righteousness. The mentally of sexism, racism, or claiming more rights based on other physical states, is exactly what the prophet stood against. Each one is superior in their way.

The same counts for "power" and "authority". From my own experience I've seen that in many, if not half of all marriages, the women are the ones "with the pants on". At the same time the men are happy with this situation, and it suits their character. The other half of men who are naturally the leaders, you'll find that a lot of the time the women take over power, especially when the husband is sick, weak, or away. At the same time relationships often seem like the man is in charge from outside, but the reality looks very different from the inside. The clever woman knows how to make her man look good, and appear like he's in charge, while she is actually controlling from the background. We can go into this topic of "power" in length, but I believe that not many people will deny that women can be the power brokers of many a successful marriages, depending on the situation and personality of themselves and their husbands. So saying that Allah has "given" men more authority and power is simply not true in a large part of relationships. 

So, I would like to emphasize that saying that men have "more" rights is not only unprovable, but there is no practical use to such an open and pointless statement. The only thing it can result in is in the man puffing up his chest and walk around like he's the boss, without actually having anything tangible to claim this right. Our only claim to leadership regardless to age, gender, tribe, race, class, etc is piousness. Whoever is right has the God given right to lead. That's in line with the clear commandments of the Quran and the ahlulbayt.

Hmm.. perhaps our difference in opinion/understanding springs from your rejection of strict linguistic translation of phrases/statements that exist in the Quran or our texts. For example, ar rijaalu qawwaamoona alan-nisaa, (Ofcorse the verse gives a context etc which clarifies this once you look at the exegesis of the Quran). 

Secondly, a woman in a relationship being "the one with the pants on" is a very simplistic understanding of authority. It goes without saying that a woman is "Rabb al bayt" and responsible for most day to day decision making for example budgeting, decor, meal times, nap times, etc. Further, a man is specifically asked to marry a morally upright woman because she will be the one raising any children they have. So who has more "authority" in these specific situations? Is it the man, who provides the means for a woman to exercise such authority, or the woman - who (presumably from how i get you) is able to exert such authority irrespective of the man's compliance/willingness to let her run the house?

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