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In the Name of God بسم الله

Isnt making dua involving the Imams haram?

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Dua cannot be a thing which is "passed through". Dua is always directed towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and what you say "others" are wasilah in our sight to get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

For instance, words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as mentioned in dua e kumayl:

" Allahumma inni ataqarrabo ilayka be dhikrak".

Here what you understand as "dhikr"? 

I understand Dhikr as remembrance. And salah is dhikr, Quran is Dhikr, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is dhikr etc. 

 

That is absolute fine.

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It doesn't matter, because the person is supplicating to creation instead of Creator.

Salam,  Well, there are hundreds of verses which can be presented in support. Actually we need to know how we gets to Al-Haqq (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? It is the creatures/creation which reminds

We go to the Imams to teach us how to ask Allah Go directly to the source pick up a copy of Al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya a book of dua by Imam Zainulabideen.  Use these dua and also use the

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 "O Abbas please help me in my situation"

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053851-abu-al-fadl-al-%E2%80%98abbas-as-the-standard-bearer/

You are not aware of the Help, that is provided. For basic 101 type understanding, start with Loyalty, Execution of the Command. If the 313 were like this Lion in their understanding Imam of the Time(عليه السلام) will be happy. Ponder on the outer and basic understanding,  for know. If you understand the reality, you will have a Standard (Alam) in your home so your generations will follow his lead.

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4 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

O Abbas please help me in my situation" It reminds me the narration

 

4 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

First of all, I have never heard this statement in my life.

Second thing is who they think Abbas is? A martyr, A helper of God & His Apostle & a helper of Imam of his time or an independent entity who can help them on his own or what? 

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

And where is qiyas here?

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Rehmatan Lil A'lameen & Dhikr is Qiyas?

No,  the qiyas lies in trying to erroneously extrapolate that invoking the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the same as invoking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

It doesn't matter, because the person is supplicating to creation instead of Creator.

Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the One who is

"سميع الدعا". And it includes each and every supplication, those supplications who are directed towards idols or creation are only listened by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

There is nothing else exist who has this capacity. 

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5 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

No,  the qiyas lies in trying to erroneously extrapolate that invoking the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the same as invoking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Who said to invoke Prophet? Have you read the statement on which you raised objection?

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

Who said to invoke Prophet? Have you read the statement on which you raised objection?

This is the very topic which is being discussed, i.e supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) vs supplicating to others. 

The Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt have taught us supplications which are direct to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) without any form of istigatha to any creation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

If anyone chooses to promote or defend anything additional then let them bring forward their proof, without any qiyaas. 

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2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

The Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt have taught us supplications which are direct to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) without any form of istigatha to any creation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

If anyone chooses to promote or defend anything additional then let them bring forward their proof, without any qiyaas. 

First of all please acknowledge your own qayas:

11 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

One always need a "wasilah" to reach to God, may it be the divine mercy which envelops all things or may it be divine knowledge which encompasses all things etc. 

Who are Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams? 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is "Mercy to the worlds" (Rehmatan lil a'lameen) and for Imams the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said "innahum minni wa ana minhum". So when you are asking something from God and saying "God! I ask you by Your mercy which envelops all things", you are making the wasilah to a thing which is present among us in the form of personality i.e. Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & his pure progeny. 



 

Why you raised objection against the above statement? It is mentioning nothing but "wasilah. Are you trying to argue against the "wasilah"? 

11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Why are you giving an alternate meaning to verses, supplications and narrations (using qiyaas) which the Qur'an and the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) have not done themselves?

Let's put it this way: is there something lacking (naudhubillah) in the supplications taught by the Qur'an and by the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)?

While you youself referring to wasilah in the above statement (supplications taught by Ahlul Bayt).

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23 minutes ago, Cool said:

Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the One who is

"سميع الدعا". And it includes each and every supplication, those supplications who are directed towards idols or creation are only listened by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

There is nothing else exist who has this capacity. 

So you are telling me that If I supplicate to my Imam (عليه السلام), it is actually a Supplication to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

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5 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

So you are telling me that If I supplicate to my Imam (عليه السلام), it is actually a Supplication to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

No, but I am rather telling you the fact that even if one supplicate to the idols like "Laat", "Uzza" & "Manat", these words too will only be heard by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as no one other actually exist who possess the capacity to listen to the supplications & deliver.

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So you tell me what is the point of having your dua passed through to other beings? You are making those beings more rahman and rahim than Allah if you believe they will look past your sins, but Allah will not.

If this practice is simply done for sectarian reasons then that is on you but if you can find me one explicit verse of the Quran that promotes this practice than I am ready to accept my defeat.

@786:) In what way are we making those beings more Rahmaan or Raheem more so than Allah exactly since they are just as much DEPENDENT upon Allah as the rest of His creations are. The difference is that the vast majority of His creations are Impurified while those who The Almighty Himself has Purified are Purified given Surah 33:33. So what is the difference between the Impure Creation and The Pure Creation of Allah?

Simple Answer: Allah may or may not fulfill the Impure Creations' Prayers to Him due to their sins weighing too great while for The Purified Creation He would not only listen, but fulfill them in due time. ALWAYS.

Allah will listen to ALL his Impure creations' making duas to Him, but He doesn't have to fulfill them. While He is Al-Raheem and Al-Rahmaan do you think He would be Al-Adl or Al-Hakam either fulfilling or not fulfilling his Impure Creation's prayers to Him? I would say Yes, since He's entitled to do whatever He Wills.

So for your question you're asking if Intercession is even remotely acceptable in light of the Quran. Should Intercession be exclusive to Allah and Allah only or should praying to Allah DIRECTLY to seek intercession through Allah's Purified Creations be also acceptable?

How can Intercession through Allah be OK since He's Al-Aleem (The All Knowing) and Al-Baseer (The All Seeing) given His 99 names of Islam? He WITNESSED your Sins. Do you think it'd be easy to beg for Allah's forgiveness while Him overlooking your sins by seeking Intercession through Him? He wouldn't be Al-Adl nor Al-Hakam by that point.

Therefore, any Impure Creation that has sinned and praying to Allah directly for seeking intercession through Him for forgiveness of their sins MIGHT BE condemned to Hellfire regardless of their intercession through Allah.

I firmly believe that Sins do not wash so easily just through mere begging to Allah since He does whatever He Wills. He will LISTEN to you All He Wants, But it is His Decision if he wishes to fulfill your prayers to Him or NOT. Sins are equivalent to Stains. Some Stains like Dried Blood are not easy to simply be washed off.

Hence, Making Duas to Allah DIRECTLY to seek Intercession through His Purified Creations is JUST AN OPTION that might be worthy to be exercised. If you don't wish to, so be it.

Given the 99 names of Allah, this is a bit complicated to comprehend I must admit.

Here's a link discussing about intercession in light of The Quran from al-islam.org (Twelver Shia Islamic Website),

https://www.al-islam.org/shafaat-intercession-sayed-abbas-abedi/intercession-light-holy-quran

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Btw, I just want to point out a flaw on my end, that I've obviously conflated with the thought that Praying to Allah directly =/= Interceding through Allah when they are actually logically equivalent and mean the same thing.

So what I'm trying to correct here is that Interceding through Allah is what Allah wants by Praying DIRECTLY to Him, however there's shouldn't be anything wrong Interceding through Allah for allowing Him intercession through His Purified Creations.

Therefore, it's an Intercession within an Intercession. It's an Intercession Inception.

So I apologize if I came across too bold and forthright with my remark on Allah's Will to forgive the Sinners or not since it is ultimately His Choice. Most of Humanity are 99% Sinners.

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On 4/17/2020 at 11:58 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Invoking Allah by Aima (عليه السلام) should be correct i think. As mentioned in 17:110

Imam (عليه السلام) said we are Asma Ul Husna and Allah told us in Ayah to call him by any of his best names.

So technically, i think, in other  ayahs, Allah has said that in context of false Gods or Walis.

Seeing stuff like this makes me feel sick. The Qur'an clearly says that ALLAH's names are the best names - Surat Al Hashr has the most names of Allah listed in the whole of the Qur'an, and in the midst of listing His names, he says "SubhanAllahi Amma Yushrikoon" - Exaulted is Allah above what they associate with Him - and after listing His names, He ends it with "Lahul Asmaa'ul Husna" - to HIM are the best names. It cannot get any clearer than this; I cannot fathom how it does not assault the Fitrah of any Muwahid to read such a Shirki Tafsir of that statement (and this is not an attack on you but Wallahi wake up my dear brother from this before it drags you into the fire, Wallah)

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3 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

Seeing stuff like this makes me feel sick. The Qur'an clearly says that ALLAH's names are the best names - Surat Al Hashr has the most names of Allah listed in the whole of the Qur'an, and in the midst of listing His names, he says "SubhanAllahi Amma Yushrikoon" - Exaulted is Allah above what they associate with Him - and after listing His names, He ends it with "Lahul Asmaa'ul Husna" - to HIM are the best names. It cannot get any clearer than this; I cannot fathom how it does not assault the Fitrah of any Muwahid to read such a Shirki Tafsir of that statement (and this is not an attack on you but Wallahi wake up my dear brother from this before it drags you into the fire, Wallah)

1.  Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Names:  These BEST NAMES are NOT the Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond description. These BEST NAMES were created  as APPROVED MEAN for us directly call upon HIM (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  And no other names are allowed when invoking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly.  Since Asmaa'ul Husna are Pure...it is Holy.  This mean to address directly has been stated in Quran.  Muslims agreed to this.

2.  What is a doa? 

A doa is Anything type of request that is directed to HIM (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) using Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Best Names.  If no reference is made to Allah's Best Names, that it is not considered as a "doa", it is just a request.  If you say "Ya Allah or Ya Rabb or Ya Rahman, help me!, that is a Dua, because there is a direct reference to the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).   But if you say "Ya Imam Zaman, help me or Ya Ali, help me", that is NOT a Doa, it is just a request.  Just like you call you friend or your mother to help you with your school works.  A request is NOT Shirk because there is no reference to them as God or using the BEST NAMES.

If you say that "Ya Abul Qasim, I seek your help to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)", that is called "Tawassul".   You may request your mother or an Aalim (who are alive) to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on your behalf.  You may say "Oh Mother, please ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to make me pass the examination".  This is Tawassul because you are asking your mother to invoke Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Best Names.  Tawassul is when you call upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through someone who have better access or credibility in the Eyes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) than yourself.  And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows tawassul, but must be for those He approved.  It It is better to do Tawassul through those people who that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made them PURE, Purified, Holy and ALIVE.  Alive means they are NOT disconnected with us.

(2:255) Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission?

So tawassul is allowed.  

Are Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) are ALIVE and not disconnected to us?  This is another matter of disagreement between many of us. As to me, they are alive Spiritually. Spiritual world exist and opened to all. 

And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah his dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how. (Surah 2, al-Baqarah verse 154)

And do not think of those killed in Allah’s path as dead: indeed they are alive and receive their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. (Surah 3, Aal-e Imran verse 169-170)

It is NOT allowed to say that Those who is killed in the path of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is DEAD.   It is against the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to say they are dead...We must say they are ALIVE.

I MUST say that Imams (عليه السلام)  and Shuhada are ALIVE because they we killed in the path of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  If they are dead, they are in Barzakh waiting for the Hereafter to come.

 

We do "Requests and Tawassul" a lots of time in our daily activities.  Sometimes, we say Salawats before we read our Doas.  That salawats is tawassul, so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will accept better our doas.  Majority of Doas that prepared by Imams will have Salawats in it.  

We call for helps from our Instructors/friends to solve our issues or concerns...(knowingly, the ultimate help comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) and our instructors/friends are just means.  However, we don't use Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) BEST NAMES to ask them for help, then it is okay and allowed.  But for a Muslim, we should have in our heart (all forms of helps are from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)).  But we are social beings and people are with different understandings and beliefs.  Also as a Muslim, when we help others who requested helps from us, always in our heart we would say "I help because of Allahswt"...it is called sincerity.  At the end of day...everything is Tawhid....ALLAH and ONLY ALLAH (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in our life.

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8 hours ago, 786:) said:

The Prophet lost battles in the early days of Islam. You don’t think he ever prayed for victory? At the end of the day it is Allah’s will.

Furthermore I want to share something interesting with you. I know this is off topic with the topic at hand, but to say that I don't think the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever prayed to Allah for victory against the 80 battles against the Kaafirs means that you're implying that I believe Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) should've lost at the very first battle of Islam which is The Battle of Badr.

https://www.al-islam.org/the-message-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/chapter-30-battle-badr

Remember the Kaafirs were heavily armed and equipped with the best weapons and armors at their disposal to mercilessly butcher Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) along with His Sahaabas. While The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) along with his Sahaabas were ill-equipped. So tell me what are you really trying to say?

I can assure you that there's a difference between Battles and Wars. Battles are Short-Term Conflicts against your Enemies while Wars are Long-Term Conflicts against your Enemies. Does it matter if Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and His Sahaabas lost at most 1 battle out of 80 battles? He still won the War against the Kaafirs.

There's a saying that goes, "You may have won the Battles, but You've Lost the War".

And vice versa, "You may have lost the Battles, but You've Won the War".

Therefore, Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) making the dua to Allah to emerge as victorious against the Kaafirs was all in Long-Term succession. Not a short-term succession as you suggest. Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his Sahaabas weren't just fighting a measly 80 battles against their Enemies. He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was fighting a War against them.

A War which He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) NEVER asked for in the first place had the Kaafir's listened and understood.

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21 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

With respect, unless they are backed the Qur'an and the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), personal understandings and interpretations remain baseless. 

You have stated various points, which I won't go through one by one, but very little of it seems to have any support from our sources. 

With due respect to you too.  If you disagreed with the writings and you did not back it with Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام),  it is baseless too.  

Whatever you hold in as your sources, are those complete and reliable???

I would be much interested if you point out the mistakes or lack of understandings on my parts, rather than put a general statement as if you understand everything!

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48 minutes ago, layman said:

With due respect to you too.  If you disagreed with the writings and you did not back it with Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام),  it is baseless too.  

Whatever you hold in as your sources, are those complete and reliable???

I would be much interested if you point out the mistakes or lack of understandings on my parts, rather than put a general statement as if you understand everything!

I didn't agree or disagree I simply pointed out that you had failed to provide proof for your statements. Until they arent supported by proof they don't have any value. 

Regarding the sources I referred to, yes the Holy Qur'an is considered a reliable source in Shiism alhamdulillah. 

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10 hours ago, Cool said:

First of all please acknowledge your own qayas:

Why you raised objection against the above statement? It is mentioning nothing but "wasilah. Are you trying to argue against the "wasilah"? 

While you youself referring to wasilah in the above statement (supplications taught by Ahlul Bayt).

No I wasn't arguing against wasilah, my question was quite clear and has yet to be answered: 

Are the supplications that have been transmitted through the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) somehow 'insufficient' or 'inadequate',  naudhubillah, for us to invent new ones which are addressed to beings other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself? 

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13 hours ago, 786:) said:

Believing that Allah depends on Ahlulbayt to fulfill dua is shirk. Or that Allah becomes obligated to fulfill dua by Ahlulbayt is also shirk. This makes Ahlulbayt more rahman and rahim than Allah as the idea is Ahlulbayt will look past your shortcomings but Allah will not. Nauzubillah. 
 

Also omni presence and omni hearing is the attribute of Allah. I believe passing these traits on to other than Allah is shirk. The Ahlulbayt would require this trait to be the middleman. 

Your first two statements are wrong beyond belief based on the concept of WHAT Shirk really is.

Shirk: It is associating partners with Allah and believing that His Creations be they Purified or Not are INDEPENDENT upon Allah which is not the case when STRICTLY making Dua to Allah and ONLY Allah for the purpose of asking for His permission to seek Intercession through The Ahlul-Bayt.

Allah doesn't HAVE to become obligated to fulfill dua by Ahlul-Bayt on behalf of the Impure Creation since the dua is still coming from The Impure Creation making dua to Allah ONLY to ask for His permission to seek Intercession through Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and His Household The Ahlul-Bayt. So it is still ultimately His choice to fulfill that Impure Creation's Prayer to Him as He Wills. Furthermore, NOBODY not even I firmly believe that Allah is DEPENDENT on Ahlul-Bayt to fulfill the Impure Creation's dua NOR are Ahlul Bayt INDEPENDENT upon Allah.

EVERYTHING IS ALL ULTIMATELY ALLAH'S DECISION. If He wishes to reject every single solitary Sinner's Prayers to Him then it is His Decision since Sinners are DEPENDENT upon Allah but Impure. But, He CAN'T reject a Purified Creation He Himself has Purified when The Purified Creation makes their Dua to Him.

I get your manipulative tactic. You're trying to extrapolate/incite that Impure Creations along with people like us who STRICTLY and DIRECTLY Pray to Allah for the purpose of asking for His permission to seek Intercession through His Purified Creations are committing an act of Shirk when there is NO ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY of the matter given the basic concept of WHAT Shirk is.

You don't know me with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY? Nor do you know who I truly am along with my intentions. Nor do I know who YOU are with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. Nor do I know you truly with your intentions.

I've only said my say on the matter and that's THAT. Leave it up to Allah to judge on my matter. If I go to Hell so be it. I'll still worship Him regardless of my eternal damnation. I don't expect to smell the fragrance of Heaven nor do I expect Allah to bring Salvation to me personally. If Allah tells me that I go to Hell and if that's whats going to take in order to please Him, then I will do my best to NOT Hesitate and walk DIRECTLY in the Fiery Pits of Hell as my last Hurrah to please Him. The Pain, the Torture, The Fires of Hell, and My Eternal Damnation will pale in comparison from my failures to live up to Allah's Expectations which is My Personal Hell (both in Real Life, till Death, and In the Hereafter soon).

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On 4/17/2020 at 6:19 PM, Abu Nur said:

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) tolds us to call Him by hist best names, it means that we call ONLY Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by the means and not the name or the name and the mean. 

It means calling Aima (عليه السلام) is calling Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Getting help from Hands of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) isn't help from someone other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

So its not shirk at all since everything in the end is directed towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

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15 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

It means calling Aima (عليه السلام) is calling Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 

This is the problem when people try to create arguments in favour of this practice. It's a very slippery slope which ends up in statement such as the one you made above.

If you accept that the aimmah (عليه السلام) are the creation of Allah and therefore seperate from Allah (the most basic and simple of concepts that any muwahhid would agree to) then clearly you cannot equate calling the aimmah to calling Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

This is why I humbly suggest to stay with the teachings of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

 

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4 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This is the problem when people try to create arguments in favour of this practice. It's a very slippery slope which ends up in statement such as the one you made above.

If you accept that the aimmah (عليه السلام) are the creation of Allah and therefore seperate from Allah (the most basic and simple of concepts that any muwahhid would agree to) then clearly you cannot equate calling the aimmah to calling Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

This is why I humbly suggest to stay with the teachings of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

 

This is not worth answering. 

But i agree with you partially.

People neglect teachings of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) alot.

Like brother mentioned Sahifa Sajjadia.

Even though i am in favor of this, doesn't mean i am trying to oppose what Aima (عليه السلام) has taught us. Indeed what they taught us is the best, and i myself pray to Allah using Aima (عليه السلام) as waseela.

Indeed what Aima (عليه السلام) has taught us, is better than what we are trying to prove.

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Since we are on the topic of supplications, here is an online copy of al sahifa al sajjadiyyah of Imam Zainul Abideen (as):

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-al-sajjadiyya-imam-ali-zayn-al-abidin

 

Regarding supplications from the Qur'an, these are the references of some of the well known ones: 

Suratul Baqarah (#2), verses 128, 201 and 286

Surah Aali Imraan (#3) verses 8, 9, 16, 53, 147,  191-194

Suratul Ma'idah (#5) verses 83 and 114

Suratul A'raaf (#7) verses 23, 47, 89 and 126'

Surah Yunus (#10) verses 85-86

Surah Ibrahim (#14) verses 40-41

Suratul Furqaan  (#25) verses 65-66 and 74

Surah Ghafir (#10) verses 7-9

Edited by Mahdavist
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11 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Even though i am in favor of this, doesn't mean i am trying to oppose what Aima (عليه السلام) has taught us. Indeed what they taught us is the best, and i myself pray to Allah using Aima (عليه السلام) as waseela.

Indeed what Aima (عليه السلام) has taught us, is better than what we are trying to prove.

So you are saying that you follow and are trying to prove a practice that does not come from the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)? 

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20 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Since we are on the topic of supplications, here is an online copy of al sahifa al sajjadiyyah of Imam Zainul Abideen (as):

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-al-sajjadiyya-imam-ali-zayn-al-abidin

 

Regarding supplications from the Qur'an, these are the references of some of the well known ones: 

Suratul Baqarah (#2), verses 128, 201 and 286

Surah Aali Imraan (#3) verses 8, 9, 16, 53, 147,  191-194

Suratul Ma'idah (#5) verses 83 and 114

Suratul A'raaf (#7) verses 23, 47, 89 and 126'

Surah Yunus (#10) verses 85-86

Surah Ibrahim (#14) verses 40-41

Suratul Furqaan  (#25) verses 65-66 and 74

Surah Ghafir (#10) verses 7-9

The most famous one in the Quran .. Surat Al Fatiha / Al Hamd (#1) verses 6-7

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

I sometimes wonder what the percentage is of people claiming to be Shia of Ahl Bayt, who pray to creatures of Allah. I feel that this percentage is above 90% :sorry:

You have to define you understanding of "pray".  It requesting for something is considered prayer?  Please be specific.

In the past, they are who argued that "a request to an Imam" is a prayer, because Imam is not longer physically available..  And prayer is a Doa and Doa is solely to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Therefore, it is a shirk.

I have put my understanding in my previous post.

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9 minutes ago, layman said:

You have to define you understanding of "pray".  It requesting for something is considered prayer?  Please be specific.

In the past, they are who argued that "a request to an Imam" is a prayer, because Imam is not longer physically available..  And prayer is a Doa and Doa is solely to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Therefore, it is a shirk.

I have put my understanding in my previous post.

Ok good question and very important! Thanks for asking.

By prayer we mean

- supplication

-spiritual requests into the unseen (like we do during our prophet-taught prayer tradition)

This is what is understood by Dua when Allah gives the example of calling for help while drowning. I think we all know what the means, or?

Basically while drowning we shouldn't say Ali bin Abi Taleb adrikni! We will say Allah get me outta here please. 

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

Ok good question and very important! Thanks for asking.

By prayer we mean

- supplication

-spiritual requests into the unseen (like we do during our prophet-taught prayer tradition)

This is what is understood by Dua when Allah gives the example of calling for help while drowning. I think we all know what the means, or?

Basically while drowning we shouldn't say Ali bin Abi Taleb adrikni! We will say Allah get me outta here please. 

What do you understand by unseen?

 

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1 hour ago, layman said:

You have to define you understanding of "pray".  It requesting for something is considered prayer?  Please be specific.

In the past, they are who argued that "a request to an Imam" is a prayer, because Imam is not longer physically available..  And prayer is a Doa and Doa is solely to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Therefore, it is a shirk.

I have put my understanding in my previous post.

Leaving aside the debate of whether it is shirk or not, and whether it is a prayer or not, the essential question is:

Did our aimmah (عليه السلام) teach us to supplicate in this manner? 

When one looks towards sahifa al sajjadiyyah taught by Imam Zainul Abideen (عليه السلام), Dua Kumail taught by Imam Ali (عليه السلام), the du'a for the day of Arafat taught by Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), the 'adiyah of the prophets (عليه السلام) in the Holy Qur'an, there does not seem to be any instance of such a practice. 

Who started this practice if not the aimmah (عليه السلام) and their students/companions? 

Edited by Mahdavist
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5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

No I wasn't arguing against wasilah, my question was quite clear and has yet to be answered: 

Are the supplications that have been transmitted through the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) somehow 'insufficient' or 'inadequate',  naudhubillah, for us to invent new ones which are addressed to beings other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself? 

I don't know why you have asked this question while @Logic1234 and me have taken two sentences from dua e kumayl:

1. Allahumma inni as'aluka berehmatekallati wase'at kulla shay

2. Allahumma inni ataqarrabo ilayka be dhikrik

And from here both of us are mentioning rehmah & dhikr in their totality and saying that both of these two includes Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & his pure progeny. 

Where & what we have invented? 

I hope that you will accept your mistake.

As for your reservation on istighatha  "Ya Ali Madad", I don't know what would be your reservation on istighatha "hal min nasirin yansurna"! 

For me "Ya Ali Madad" is not even the istighatha. It is either a way to remember the helper of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle or it is a tool to differentiate between emaan & nifaq in people. 

"Adorn your gatherings with the dhikr of Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام)"

"Dhikr of Ali ibn Abi Talib is ibadah".

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41 minutes ago, Cool said:

I don't know why you have asked this question while @Logic1234 and me have taken two sentences from dua e kumayl:

1. Allahumma inni as'aluka berehmatekallati wase'at kulla shay

2. Allahumma inni ataqarrabo ilayka be dhikrik

And from here both of us are mentioning rehmah & dhikr in their totality and saying that both of these two includes Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & his pure progeny. 

Where & what we have invented? 

I hope that you will accept your mistake.

As for your reservation on istighatha  "Ya Ali Madad", I don't know what would be your reservation on istighatha "hal min nasirin yansurna"! 

For me "Ya Ali Madad" is not even the istighatha. It is either a way to remember the helper of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle or it is a tool to differentiate between emaan & nifaq in people. 

"Adorn your gatherings with the dhikr of Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام)"

"Dhikr of Ali ibn Abi Talib is ibadah".

Thanks for your feedback brother. I will attempt to address your points one by one inshaAllah.

-Firstly I notice you haven't answered the question yet. Regarding why I asked it, it's because that is the very topic which is being discussed in this thread.

-Second point: the supplication you have quoted is indeed from the Imam (عليه السلام). If you now extrapolate from this that 'du'a can be made to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)' (which is the topic of this thread) then indeed this is not only qiyaas but in fact a self contradicting attempt at it since the quote itself is a clear example of supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly. If you are not making such a statement, then your reference to these lines of dua are irrelevant to this topic. 

-Next point, Ya Ali Madad. My question was is this taught by the aimmah (عليه السلام) or was it invented later by others? 

-Final point also regarding 'Ya Ali Madad'. You claim that this is a tool to differentiate between nifaq and imaan. My question: are the companions/students/narrators of our Aimmah and our classical scholars munafiqeen, because apparently they have never made such a statement? 

I look forward to hearing from you. 

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28 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

If you now extrapolate from this that 'du'a can be made to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)' (which is the topic of this thread) then indeed this is not only qiyaas but in fact a self contradicting attempt at it since the quote itself is a clear example of supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly. If you are not making such a statement, then your reference to these lines of dua are irrelevant to this topic. 

No I am not extrapolating this at all.

What I am extrapolating is the fact that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is among divine rehmah & dhikr. So when one says in supplication to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that "Allahumma inni as'aluka be rehmatekallati wase'at kulla shay" he is making the divine mercy "wasilah". And since divine mercy includes Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the person reciting the dua is making Prophet too a "wasilah" because of the fact "wama arsalnaka illa rehmatan lil a'lameen".

Dua can only be directed towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for He is the only One who possess the ability to listen to all dua's & diliver. Only He is "Sami' ad-dua". 

28 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Next point, Ya Ali Madad. My question was is this taught by the aimmah (عليه السلام) or was it invented later by others? 

It is said that it is the Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to say Ya Ali Madad. Although I haven't studied its details. But it is a fact that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did such things throughout his life in which he emerge as helper of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle. For instance, Battle of Khyber, Battle of Trench etc. 

I have shared two famous hadith:

1. Zaiyyanu majalisokum be dhikre Ali ibn Abi Talib. 

So remembering him as a helper of God "Ansar ullah" , friend of God (Waliullah) is not a sin or a thing prohibited by Aimma e Tahireen (عليه السلام) 

A "Nasir" is the one who helps. In fact Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & rest of the Aimmah are still helping us in understanding Quran & religion (way of life).

28 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Final point also regarding 'Ya Ali Madad'. You claim that this is a tool to differentiate between nifaq and imaan. My question: are the companions/students/narrators of our Aimmah and our classical scholars munafiqeen, because apparently they have never made such a statement? 

A learned person will adorn his gathering by the dhikr of Imam (عليه السلام) according to his knowledge. So each & every scholar use to do that. No one abstains from doing this worship.

As for a layman & person who don't have any historical knowhow or haven't studied much would use this simple method of remembering the helper of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and use it as a tool to distinguish between emaan & nifaq in people.

Edited by Cool
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