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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Kamal al Haydari on ghulat

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12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

actually what you consider as words of Imams, are words of scholars who wrote down what they heard people say the Imams said. You most probably never heard or saw an Imam or Prophet

I have mentioned my view please. Yes any ShiaChat memebr may disagree with my words.But the Qur'an mentions the Prophet as chosen  representatives with words like Astafa and the persons like me use the words of sinned for them? .This is not considered a favorable action please.

Edited by Muslim2010

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

actually what you consider as words of Imams, are words of scholars who wrote down what they heard people say the Imams said. You most probably never heard or saw an Imam or Prophet

Well then 313 seeker thats how people deny what they don't like.

If you are a Shia, you cannot interpret verses by yourself. You must refer to AhleZikr.

When people quote Ayahs to prove sajda to Imams valid, you go to tafaseer of Aima (عليه السلام) and present that in interpretation of these verses , Imam clearly mentioned that prostration was not for Adam or Yusuf.

Only Allah knows interpretation of verses of The Book. So we need to refer to his representatives to understand it.

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7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Of course you quote verses that does not give any proof in this matter.

First of all excuse me for misunderstanding you.

Now the first verse I quoted says "my whole life" (وَمَحْيَايَ). This includes everything, every moment. The second verse mentions him as exemplar. So there is in fact nothing which can be said as "non-religious" about Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

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6 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I have mentioned my view please. Yes any ShiaChat memebr may disagree with my words.But the Qur'an mentions the Prophet as chosen  representatives with words like Astafa and the persons like me use the words of sinned for them? .This is not favorable for me atleast.

no it's not people like you who use words like sin, it's Allah.  It's ok don't worry, Im probably the only person on this forum with this view. Your opinion is safely supported here.

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7 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Well then 313 seeker thats how people deny what they don't like.

If you are a Shia, you cannot interpret verses by yourself. You must refer to AhleZikr.

When people quote Ayahs to prove sajda to Imams valid, you go to tafaseer of Aima (عليه السلام) and present that in interpretation of these verses , Imam clearly mentioned that prostration was not for Adam or Yusuf.

Only Allah knows interpretation of verses of The Book. So we need to refer to his representatives to understand it.

I fully disagree. Every human being is encouraged to think and reflect on everything, especially the verses of the Qur'an. Your other points, if you want to discuss them, bring them one-by-one, in the name of The One

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51 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Because he is an Human Being.

Yes but an exemplar, the one who is mentioned as "khulqin azeem". Sadiq, Ameen, Tahir etc. The one who possess the heart on which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed the Qur'an. 

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7 minutes ago, Cool said:

First of all excuse me for misunderstanding you.

Now the first verse I quoted says "my whole life" (وَمَحْيَايَ). This includes everything, every moment. The second verse mentions him as exemplar. So there is in fact nothing which can be said as "non-religious" about Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Hope you could benefit from this post:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060322-mistakes-of-Prophets-and-Imams-scholarly-views/?do=findComment&comment=3186090

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I don't get how you guys divide things into religious and non-religious. Everything from going to the toilet, to giving birth, to washing a corpse, to riding a means of transportation is part of religion. There is nothing that is not part of Islam. Everything we do should be ibada and halal.

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12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

no it's not people like you who use words like sin, it's Allah.  It's ok don't worry, Im probably the only person on this forum with this view. Your opinion is safely supported here.

Thus  it means the words of Imams explaining the verses of Qur'an are liable to be rejected at his own  by a follower of Imams? When other verses does use term Astafa  of the chosen representatives? Is it so?

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 4/10/2020 at 1:05 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Thus  it means the words of Imams explaining the verses of Qur'an are liable to be rejected at his own  by a follower of Imams? When other verses does use term Astafa  of the chosen representatives? Is it not so?

astafa means chosen. It does not mean sin-less. The Qur'an mentions lots of mistakes they did, not just with one uncontroversial word like zulm, but many.

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6 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Thank you for reference.

I have seen that thread couple of days back and was impressed by @Urwatul Wuthqa he raised some very nice questions which gone unanswered on that thread. 

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On 4/10/2020 at 1:05 PM, 313 Seeker said:

I don't get how you guys divide things into religious and non-religious. Everything from going to the toilet, to giving birth, to washing a corpse, to riding a means of transportation is part of religion. There is nothing that is not part of Islam. Everything we do should be ibada and halal.

Putting my jacket on is ibadah? Reading a book while I mistakenly read wrong phrase...I don't know how it is related to religion.

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٣_٣٣    ۞ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ٱصْطَفَىٰٓ ءَادَمَ وَنُوحًۭا وَءَالَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَءَالَ عِمْرَٰنَ عَلَى ٱلْعَٰلَمِينَ

003:033 Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;

Thus the chsoen representatives chsoen above the nations were sinners as per your thought? Thus Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chosen sinners or those who make mistakes like ordinary human being and provide them with unconditional authority to be obeyed by all believers? 

When these verses have been explained by Imams  with their back ground  in hadith So we should reject all the verses and hadith of Imams becasue  the words misinterpreted by  some fellows here?

Sorry brother I disagree with this intention  please.

@313 Seeker

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Thank you for reference.

I have seen that thread couple of days back and was impressed by @Urwatul Wuthqa he raised some very nice questions which gone unanswered on that thread. 

Quoted from Ibn al-Hussain:

Yes, I am saying most Shi'a scholars agree that there was an incident where God kept the Prophet (p) asleep and he missed his Fajr prayers. In fact, some have used these traditions to prove that if you stay asleep through Fajr (something which is out of your control), it is obligatory upon you to perform its Qadha just like the Prophet (p) did.

- Here Prophet Missed the salat, but it was not his intention and God kept him missing it. I believe that this is the only level they can make mistake.

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Putting my jacket on is ibadah? Reading a book while I mistakenly read wrong phrase...I don't know how it is related to religion.

Yes there is a suna of putting on clothes. What to say, and the right side first. When reading we must make sure we read the right materials, at the right time and the right reasons. This is all religion. We must make dua before reading. We must not, but everything we do should be for Allah. Otherwise it is shirq. That is my opinion anyway, each person can do as they wish

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Putting my jacket on is ibadah?

Yes it can be. Depending on your neeyah.

If I were to wear a jacket, my sole intention would be to protect my body granted to me by Al-Musawwir (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from cold weather or to adorn myself with the blessings of Al-Mo'tee who has granted me the Jacket. 

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

Yes it can be. Depending on your neeyah.

If I were to wear a jacket, my sole intention would be to protect my body granted to me by Al-Musawwir (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from cold weather or to adorn myself with the blessings of Al-Mo'tee who has granted me the Jacket. 

The action of putting my jacket on, not the jacket itself.

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look guys, take this from me ..

the bottom line is that we should remember God 'zikr' in every instance of our lives. If we remember and are conscious of Allah while we put on a jacket, then that is the right way. Allah created us for one thing only. To worship Him. And after taking it off, taking good care of it, and thanking God is also suna. Keeping it clean is also suna

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Just now, 313 Seeker said:

look guys, take this from me ..

the bottom line is that we should remember God 'zikr' in every instance of our lives. If we remember and are conscious of Allah while we put on a jacket, then that is the right way. Allah created us for one thing only. To worship Him. And after taking it off, taking good care of it, and thanking God is also suna. Keeping it clean is also suna

One thing is sure is that making mistake in these little things are common with human nature, even the Imams and Prophets could do it.

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12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

- Here Prophet Missed the salat, but it was not his intention and God kept him missing it. I believe that this is the only level they can make mistake.

Thanks for your selection from Ibn al-Hussain, but it  may be taken by some one as justification of missing the salat ul fajar as the Prophet saw missed the fajr prayer, As following the Prophet saw is mandatory as per verses of Qur'an. Is it not so?

Would you like to explain it further please?

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3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

One thing is sure is that making mistake in these little things are common with human nature, even the Imams and Prophets could do it.

that's for sure

personally I believe in the following proverb: 

there are no perfect actions, just perfect intentions 

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2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for your selection from Ibn al-Hussain, but it  may be taken by some one as justification of missing the salat ul fajar as the Prophet saw missed the fajr prayer, As following the Prophet saw is mandatory as per verses of Qur'an. Is it not so?

Would you like to explain it further please?

The Prophet did not have intention to miss it, it is made by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mostly for some purposes.

Edited by Abu Nur

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2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

following the Prophet saw is mandatory as per verses of Qur'an

following the way of the Prophet and his direction. His example. But not blindly.

Allah orders us to race towards what is good. We should compete with the Prophet. We should strive to be better than the Prophet. Maybe if we aim for that, we might actually get close.

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11 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The action of putting my jacket on, not the jacket itself.

Yes, your action of putting on your jacket becomes ibadah. You must have known the verse of chapter 3 in which God has appreciated those who mentions Him while standing/sitting/switching on sides and ponder on the creation of heaven & Earth. 

Their standing/sitting etc as well as their pondering (tafakkur), these all actions are ibadah.

Here is that verse:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 191:
الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ

Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the Earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:
(English - Shakir)

Edited by Cool

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Just now, Cool said:

Yes, your action of putting on your jacket becomes ibadah.

not only that. giving it away to other people, and not being too happy with it, or ungrateful for it. Some people are proud of their clothes, and others are unsatisfied with it. Some people chose wrong colors and designs. Or they pay too much or too little for it. Or they show off with it. There are infinite good or bad things we can do with our freaking jacket

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12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

following the way of the Prophet and his direction. His example. But not blindly.

Allah orders us to race towards what is good. We should compete with the Prophet. We should strive to be better than the Prophet. Maybe if we aim for that, we might actually get close.

The statements seem we should follow Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) instructions more than those of the Prophet saww? is not so?

How we can seek more than the Prophet when he is exemplar for us? These stateemnts seem to be presnted by some how missing the role of the Prophet saw as mentioned in Qur'an.

We follow the Prophet saw and Imams  and without their guidance no one else among us can interpret and reach  to the guidance sent by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Almighty.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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8 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

How we can seek more than the Prophet when he is exemplar for us?

The teacher can always be overtaken by their students

Qur'an is basically Allah's word and is virtually untampered

Hadiths is basically the words of scholars on what they heard the Prophets or Imams say.

There is a hadith saying that the Prophet said:

Comparing Qur'an with any other book, is like comparing Allah with the creations.  There is no comparison.

We follow the Prophet in spirit, morally, and from the narrations that are famous. We don't have a famous narration where a Prophet or Imam say they are infallible. And the Qur'an is clear about their mistakes. So we should deal with this reality and paint the picture of who this Prophet is that we are supposed to follow on this fact. Otherwise we risk actually following someone else. And that someone else can only be shaytan

Edited by 313 Seeker
sbelling

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12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

We follow the Prophet in spirit, morally, and from the narrations that are famous. 

But as per your own words 

12 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Allah orders us to race towards what is good. We should compete with the Prophet. We should strive to be better than the Prophet. Maybe if we aim for that, we might actually get close.

So these contradctions and alike to cover the degrading of the chosen represenatives in some  ShiaChat threads have been seen  under different profile names over last few years and  sorry to mention I do  remember those .I am not surprised by such practices and I have mentioned my view in clear words.

I do have difference of opinion on these matters please and I follow thaqlyn and not only the book..

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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35 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Here Prophet Missed the salat, but it was not his intention and God kept him missing it. I believe that this is the only level they can make mistake.

The question was raised against the same paragraph. 

Surah Al-Mumenoon, Verse 9:
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ

And those who keep a guard on their prayers;
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Maarij, Verse 23:
الَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ دَائِمُونَ

Those who are constant at their prayer
(English - Shakir)

The question was that who were those who possess the traits يُحَافِظُونَ & دَائِمُونَ? 

It was stressed that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was among those who not only guard their prayers but also are constant in his prayers. If there are some who have not missed any of their prayers while Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did, then the status of those others becomes higher than Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

This was put forward by @Urwatul Wuthqa

Do you want to answer it?

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8 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

and  sorry to mention I do  rememebr those

don't be sorry brother, it's ok, I have nothing to hide here. I didn't make new accounts to hide anything, and don't mind being referred and accounted for them all openly.

10 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I do have difference of opinion on these matters please.

wasalam

yes I know, no problem. all the best wasalaam

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4 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Immaterial is the fallible/infallible binary. What's interesting is the extent of infallibility or fallibility edit: by this I mean: where is the line drawn that classifies it in the binary. 

Can you explain more what you mean.  

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