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In the Name of God بسم الله
786:)

Kamal al Haydari on ghulat

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

that is the part to show that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is perfect in every matter.

I don't know what is the reason behind this sort of thinking! Why you need to compare Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with anything? He is perfect but His perfection is not like the perfection of any human being who took birth, have wife & childrens etc. He is Al-Samad and is therefore perfect & pure existence. Human are imperfect because they are dependent on that One pure & perfect Being.

When we talk about human perfection, it means those who obey the creator in true letter & spirit. Those who don't err or commit sins throughout their life although they possess the tendency to do so. 

2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

. I believe and it is clear in Qur'an that God protect them for this in Religion issues.

Lets understand first the problem of "religious & nonreligious issues". What are the non-religious issues for Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 162:
قُلْ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 21:
لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.
(English - Shakir)

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On 4/7/2020 at 11:03 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Look I don't know anything, but...

I have a few problems with the fourth theory of ijtihad that Sayed al-Haydari promotes (or at least his understanding of it).

1) It doesn't address scholarly takfir. It is bad enough as it is, and it creates tension among the laymen as it is, but with "intellectual freedom" it will only worsen. It's not appropriate for modernity. It is built on insulting other scholars, denouncing them, and causing fitnah. That itself is part of the loose "intellectual freedom" that has no boundaries or limits. This may have been fine in a less interconnected world, but it would only cause troubles nowadays. He is of the mistaken belief that we can somehow have this fourth ijtihad without the aformentioned takfir.

2) Laypeople are inclined to follow bad opinions, no matter how refuted, so that ought to be a concern with too much intellectual variety. Bringing scholars forth to destroy bad beliefs is unconvincing to laymen.

3) Our communities and mosques would devolve into competing theological subsets. We would lose all unity.  

4) All our political advances thus far as Twelver Shias would seemingly vanish or halt if we become disunited

5) This would open the gates for even more crowd-pleasing majalis/khateeb/zakir reciters. We don't need more opportunistic people coming in and confusing the Twelver Ummah.

6) I'm not sure why we should return to  bad ideas. These bad ideas have already been dispelled.

7) As he mentioned, we have no need to be following the scholarly opinions of the past. Which is why recent Twelver scholars hold to an unlimited scope of ilm al-ghayb for the Imams. 

I would only be okay with such a theory if the following methods were in place, which brings us back to a slightly toned down version of the third theory: 

No issuing Fatwas against other Twelver scholars unless they: 

a. Reject Ijtihad and Taqlid

b. Reject Usul al-Din or Furuh al-Din

c. Promote disunity in the mosques and community centres 

d. Are of genuine Ghuluw or Khawarij or corporeal God beliefs

If these limitations are not placed, then expect that due to our modern environment, Shiism would be destroyed from within. 

Salam about no

  • 1 he faced Takfir from Wahabist & some radical Shias .
  • 2 we can’t get rid off laypeople but we can increase their knowledge anyway intellectual people will face more problems each day before reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj).
  • 3 in my point of view it’s not  a bad thing anyway also he said that Imam Khamenei (Agha) supports the idea of free thinking & talking about philosophy in Hawzas  anyway  I don’t see a good unity between Shia Muslims until now that deserves defending it 
  • 4  I don’t think so anyway all of it is worldly matter that can we can achieve after few years .
  • 5 already we have these type of people even in Shia hadith mentiones that before reappearance from sons of lady Fatima there will be Dajjas that because of them people will reject Imam Mahdi (aj) or will curse him .
  • 6 I agree with this part .
  • 7 he didn’t deny their importance but he said that even them have disagreement with each other but he dint mention that supervision of Imam Mahdi (aj) at sum up put all of them in right pass.

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On 4/9/2020 at 1:17 PM, Abu Nur said:

I don't agree with this nor there is any proof for this in Qur'an. All humans do some part of mistakes, that is part of their nature, that is the part to show that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is perfect in every matter. I believe and it is clear in Qur'an that God protect them for this in Religion issues.

You see, is it logically conceivable that there is a person that can do the right thing at the right time and in the right way at all times and in all places?

and the answer is, yes.

If this is what "Isma" is, then Isma is logically possible.  

But is this really what Isma is?

You see, the problem with this definition or understanding of Isma is that it assumes that the success of man is in his actions.  But success of man is not only in his actions but in his iman (and this is aspect is prioritized).

But the whole ethos of Islam was never about the accomplishments of individuals but rather it was always about servitude. And servitude is not only outwardly, but also, and most importantly. inwardly - the former being nifaq).

Now, inward servitude is precisely the realization that "I as a person" is inherently mistaken and in error and that only God is perfect.  In fact it is even more than this, it is the realization that the "individual" I exists only in an apparent way, and that what really exists is the Absolute Reality (Allah).

Now, it is this inward and outward realization that makes the Prophet (S) Masum. This realization itself is not "an achievement" by them, it is none other than God's Knowledge.  The Masum is Masum only by and through God.  

May God grant us all I'smah just as the Prophet (S), the Imams (عليه السلام), and Companions (رضي الله عنه) had I'sma (by God and through God).

One can be a perfect "doer" outwardly and it would not mean a thing.

But the most important thing is his inward understanding.

One can be imperfect outwardly (and this is only judged by the perception of other people), but inwardly there is nothing but sincerity and perfection.  This is a possibility although a a very remote one.

This is why we cannot possibly judge anyone's heart and only God alone can.

Edited by Hameedeh
Excessive amount of empty space was removed. Please don't push the space bar at the end of your reply.

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Quote

I don't know what is the reason behind this sort of thinking! Why you need to compare Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with anything? He is perfect but His perfection is not like the perfection of any human being who took birth, have wife & childrens etc. He is Al-Samad and is therefore perfect & pure existence. Human are imperfect because they are dependent on that One pure & perfect Being.

Compare? I'm not comparing, I'm praising Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and showing how low and depending is His creation and how High is He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Don't assume thing about me thinking that I'm comparing things with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Read Munajaat of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), that was my intention:

My Lord, O my Lord, You are the Great and I am the insignificant, and who else can be merciful to the insignificant except the Great?

Quote

Lets understand first the problem of "religious & nonreligious issues". What are the non-religious issues for Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

Of course you quote verses that does not give any proof in this matter. So if I sacrifices my life to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it means I can not do mistake? So if one is the excellent exemplar who hopes in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) means that he cannot make mistake?

Edited by Abu Nur

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On 4/9/2020 at 10:29 PM, eThErEaL said:

You see, is it logically conceivable that there is a person that can do the right thing at the right time and in the right way at all times and in all places?

and the answer is, yes.

If this is what "Isma" is, then Isma is logically possible.  

But is this really what Isma is?

You see, the problem with this definition or understanding of Isma is that it assumes that the success of man is in his actions.  But success of man is not only in his actions but in his iman (and this is aspect is prioritized).

But the whole ethos of Islam was never about the accomplishments of individuals but rather it was always about servitude. And servitude is not only outwardly, but also, and most importantly. inwardly - the former being nifaq).

Now, inward servitude is precisely the realization that "I as a person" is inherently mistaken and in error and that only God is perfect.  In fact it is even more than this, it is the realization that the "individual" I exists only in an apparent way, and that what really exists is the Absolute Reality (Allah).

Now, it is this inward and outward realization that makes the Prophet (S) Masum. This realization itself is not "an achievement" by them, it is none other than God's Knowledge.  The Masum is Masum only by and through God.  

May God grant us all I'smah just as the Prophet (S), the Imams (عليه السلام), and Companions (رضي الله عنه) had I'sma (by God and through God).

One can be a perfect "doer" outwardly and it would not mean a thing.

But the most important thing is his inward understanding.

One can be imperfect outwardly (and this is only judged by the perception of other people), but inwardly there is nothing but sincerity and perfection.  This is a possibility although a a very remote one.

This is why we cannot possibly judge anyone's heart and only God alone can.

If they do mistake it is not even their intention so it is not even bad thing nor it will low their status.

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

If they do mistake it is not even their intention so it is not even bad thing nor it will low their status.

Yes.  Exactly.  In fact it points to their supreme status in some other way as it ends up revealing their servitude to us.  

This is why the whole discussion is immaterial.  
 

What matters is simply the fact that the Seyyiduna Muhammad Mustafa (S) is the principle of manifestation, “Be”, without which the entire created order would not exist in the “apparent” way that it does.  In Tasawwuf-tradition the Holy Prophet (S) is referred to as the Hijab Al-Akbar (Greatest Veil). The reason is because the Divine Essence, being pure light is intense and blinding.  There ought to be a veil that makes the manifestation of this Light possible.  so He is that initial veil that makes creation possible (thereby being Rahmatul Lil-Aalameen).  The Holy Prophet (S) being a veil is in that respect unveils.  What veils unveils.  

This is what really needs to be discussed.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 4/9/2020 at 8:29 PM, eThErEaL said:

You see, is it logically conceivable that there is a person that can do the right thing at the right time and in the right way at all times and in all places?

The answer is yes. However, I disagree with that the Prophet is a person and liable to make mistakes in the light of verses of Qur'an like:

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

This mentions the authority of Prophet that Muslims should follow him as he is an exemplar for us.
How Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen an exemplar that makes mistakes?

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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45 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The answer is yes. However, I disagree with that the Prophet is a person and liable to make mistakes in the light of verses of Qur'an like:

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

This mentions the authority of Prophet that Muslims should follow him as he is an exemplar for us.
How Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen an exemplar that makes mistakes?

wasalam

Have you read my post?

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On 4/10/2020 at 11:12 AM, Muslim2010 said:

The answer is yes. However, I disagree with that the Prophet is a person and liable to make mistakes in the light of verses of Qur'an like:

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

This mentions the authority of Prophet that Muslims should follow him as he is an exemplar for us.
How Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen an exemplar that makes mistakes?

Exactly.

Also 33:33 says Rijs has been kept away from them and Same Qur'an mentions sperm as unlcean "nijasat" and here people are saying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams are born like us there is  nothing special and on top of that, Shias are saying this. 

Thats sad.

Indeed they are born but they have been kept away from every rijs and yet you are talking about nijasat? 

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5 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Have you read my post?

Atee ullah wa atee ur Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Is unconditional in every manner and isn't only restricted to religious things only.

So if Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can be wrong in other matters, then This ayahs would have imperfect implementation. @Muslim2010 is right.

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5 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Exactly.

Also 33:33 says Rijs has been kept away from them and Same Qur'an mentions sperm as unlcean "nijasat" and here people are saying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams are born like us there is  nothing special and on top of that, Shias are saying this. 

Thats sad.

Indeed they are born but they have been kept away from every rijs and yet you are talking about nijasat? 

What is sperm have to do with this? Wait, please correct me if I'm wrong, are you trying to say that Prophet (عليه السلام) and Imams (عليه السلام) are not born like us? Through Intercourse, trough sperm etc?

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

immaterial

Immaterial is the fallible/infallible binary. What's interesting is the extent of infallibility or fallibility edit: by this I mean: where is the line drawn that classifies it in the binary. 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

I consider it a contradictory concept please. Is it not so?

Why contradiction? If someone make mistake not intentionally, there is nothing wrong with it and we don't judge such a things. If Imam (عليه السلام) suggest better thing to another Imam (عليه السلام), there is nothing wrong with it, and this happened actually. Some people can not accept these kind of thing, thinking how can Imam suggest better to other Imam, while Imams should already know what is the best thing.

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2 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

He most certainly thinks they are infallible. 

so @786:) was wrong when he said?

On 3/30/2020 at 8:34 PM, 786:) said:

He’s of the opinion that infallibility was a later concept introduced in tashayyu. It was not an original concept from the origin of Islam.

His statement in the video was to illustrate how the Shias have gone overboard with isma to where now they try to attribute isma to Zainab and Abbas.

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

Brother can you tell what is the infallibility you disagree with.

Brother first of all the word infallibility doesn't exist in Arabic. (All this is my opinion, so forgive me if I talk as if I'm confident about my opinion).

The word Isma / Maasoum, means protected in the Qur'an, and the Arabic language of today.

Secondly, the Qur'an is filled with examples of Prophets, including our own ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) making mistakes. From Adam to Mohammed. A mistake is crossing the boundaries of what is Halal and Haram, or confusing the two. This is how I see it, and to me that is the most important lesson in the Qur'an. To take the Prophets as examples as humans who feel like we do, repent like we do, and have weaknesses like we do.

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12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Why contradiction? If someone make mistake not intentionally, there is nothing wrong with it and we don't judge such a things. If Imam (عليه السلام) suggest better thing to another Imam (عليه السلام), there is nothing wrong with it, and this happened actually. Some people can not accept these kind of thing, thinking how can Imam suggest better to other Imam, while Imams should already know what is the best thing.

The contradiction comes here that a leader has authority to be obeyed unconditionally but he is a human /person as per some ShiaChat members view and he makes mistakes. Then how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has ordered us to follow a leader that makes mistakes? This is against the basic principle of Adal. So it is a clear contradiction, please.

Yes one Imam can suggest a better option to another Imam but that does not mean we follow an Imam that makes mistakes. 

I hope my view is clearly quoted please.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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Just now, 313 Seeker said:

Brother first of all the word infallibility doesn't exist in Arabic. (All this is my opinion, so forgive me if I talk as if I'm confident about my opinion).

The word Isma / Maasoum, means protected in the Qur'an, and the Arabic language of today.

Secondly, the Qur'an is filled with examples of Prophets, including our own ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) making mistakes. From Adam to Mohammed. A mistake is crossing the boundaries of what is Halal and Haram, or confusing the two. This is how I see it, and to me that is the most important lesson in the Qur'an. To take the Prophets as examples as humans who feel like we do, repent like we do, and have weaknesses like we do.

One thing I don't understand is the case of Prophet Yunus (عليه السلام), where he clearly said:

‘There is no God except You! You are immaculate! I have indeed been among the wrongdoers!’

Admitting that he is from wrongdoers means that he did a sin. How can we even thing that it is not the case?

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

One thing I don't understand is the case of Prophet Yunus (عليه السلام), where he clearly said:

‘There is no God except You! You are immaculate! I have indeed been among the wrongdoers!’

Admitting that he is from wrongdoers means that he did a sin. How can we even thing that it is not the case?

I have finished my 'like' quota of today, but I liked your post. 

Yes, this and many other cases. 

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3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Secondly, the Qur'an is filled with examples of Prophets, including our own ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) making mistakes. From Adam to Mohammed. A mistake is crossing the boundaries of what is Halal and Haram, or confusing the two. This is how I see it, and to me that is the most important lesson in the Qur'an. To take the Prophets as examples as humans who feel like we do, repent like we do, and have weaknesses like we do.

Also, Adam (عليه السلام) wasn't even in this legislative world when he "sinned", and God gave him only an advisory command anyways. 

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9 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Also, Adam (عليه السلام) wasn't even in this legislative world when he "sinned", and God gave him only an advisory command anyways.

Adam had one law, which was an order by Allah. A limit that he was not allowed to cross, otherwise he would be a zalim/wrongdoer. This law he broke as we all know

 

As for your links, there are so many points you made, maybe you can say them one by one

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12 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Also, Adam (عليه السلام) wasn't even in this legislative world when he "sinned", and God gave him only an advisory command anyways. 

There are many hadith from Imams where they elaborated these event mentioned in Qur'an where apparently the Prophets have been seen as making mistakes or using the words of repenting. The words of Imams for us are source of guidance and after that the scholars views may be seen. This seems a correct approach the for me instead of using degrading remarks for any chosen person  by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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Just now, Muslim2010 said:

The words of Imams for us are source of guidance and after that the scholars views may be seen.

actually what you consider as words of Imams, are words of scholars who wrote down what they heard people say the Imams said. You most probably never heard or saw an Imam or Prophet

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