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In the Name of God بسم الله
786:)

Kamal al Haydari on ghulat

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

What about whom God wills to keep free from errors/mistakes?

Surah An-Najm, Verse 2:
مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ

Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;
(English - Shakir)

 

Đalla is better translated as gone astray. This same word is used in Fatiha in verse 7,  Ađ-Đāllīna. 

from Ali Quri Qarai translation:

your companion has neither gone astray,nor gone amiss.

Edited by Abu Nur

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7 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Thanks. Then we have this:

Allah does not lead any people astray after He has guided them until He has made clear to them what they should beware of. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things. 9:115

-

We are talking about Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams. For them it is absurd to believe that God would lead them astray.

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3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Đalla is better translated as gone astray. This same word is used in Fatiha in verse 7,  Ađ-Đāllīna. 

from Ali Quri Qarai translation:

your companion has neither gone astray,nor gone amiss.

In both the translations, 9:115 does not apply to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 115:
وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُضِلَّ قَوْمًا بَعْدَ إِذْ هَدَاهُمْ حَتَّىٰ يُبَيِّنَ لَهُم مَّا يَتَّقُونَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

It is not (attributable to) Allah that He should lead a people astray after He has guided them; He even makes clear to them what they should guard against; surely Allah knows all things.
(English - Shakir)

 

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

We are talking about Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams. For them it is absurd to believe that God would lead them astray.

You quoted verse:

Surely (as for) My servants, you have no authority over them; and your Lord is sufficient as a Protector.

My point is that this verse can also included obeying believers that are not Prophets (عليه السلام) and Imams (عليه السلام). Even if Shaytan does not have authority over them, they can still mislead themselves. For Prophets and Imams, this is not so, God chooses and purified and will protect them, because they are the one who represent His message. 

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19 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

but what about mistakes, etc

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Ala, Verse 6:
سَنُقْرِئُكَ فَلَا تَنسَىٰ

We will make you recite so you shall not forget,
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Ala, Verse 7:
إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ إِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ الْجَهْرَ وَمَا يَخْفَىٰ

Except what Allah pleases, surely He knows the manifest, and what is hidden.
(English - Shakir)

"Fala tansa illa ma-sha Allah"

Edited by Cool

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Ala, Verse 6:
سَنُقْرِئُكَ فَلَا تَنسَىٰ

We will make you recite so you shall not forget,
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Ala, Verse 7:
إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ إِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ الْجَهْرَ وَمَا يَخْفَىٰ

Except what Allah pleases, surely He knows the manifest, and what is hidden.
(English - Shakir)

 

So do you accept that he can make mistake as if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows it?

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13 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

So do you accept that he can make mistake as if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows it?

It is "forgetting" something (tansa comes from nasiya or nasu). So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams can forget if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes them or in other words wants them to forget. It is again nothing but obedience because "wama tasha'oona illa an yasha Allah". Means their will always is in harmony with the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). That's what makes them *Mukhlaseen".

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams do have the capacity to sin & err. But they don't sin & err because of divine grace & knowledge bestowed to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 

Edited by Cool

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

It is "forgetting" something (tansa comes from nasiya or nasu). So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams can forget if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes them or in other words wants them to forget. It is again nothing but obedience because "wama tasha'oona illa an yasha Allah". Means their will always is in harmony with the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). That's what makes them *Mukhlaseen".

So by their human nature, they do forget, because everything is by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will anyway. I believe if such a thing happen, it always want to make sure to show the Prophets and Imams their position to make them always humble.

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Quote

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams do have the capacity to sin & err. But they don't sin & err because of divine grace & knowledge bestowed to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Everyone Agrees that when it comes to religion issues this is truth, they can not make mistakes. For other than religion matters, scholars have different opinions about the mistake part.

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:
Quote

Thus, Hisham’s aim was Tathbit to affirm the Existence of God and to escape the charge of Ta’til (denying the attributes of God) and Tabtil (invalidating the existence of God). He accepted that God was a thing. This in his system meant that He was a body. But what kind of Body?

Thank you so much! Wasalam

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

None other than God is free from error, mistakes.  Sin Is being other than God.  Being other than God is itself to be in error.  Separative existence is itself sin, error, mistaken, and ignorance.

This is a fallacy. God is beyond the concept of sinning. 

5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Even angels are not free of error.

Agreed, but tell that to your fellow Sunnis. 

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On 3/30/2020 at 11:34 PM, 786:) said:

He’s of the opinion that infallibility was a later concept introduced in tashayyu. It was not an original concept from the origin of Islam.

His statement in the video was to illustrate how the Shias have gone overboard with isma to where now they try to attribute isma to Zainab and Abbas.

Such a person should care about his akhrat whether classical scholor or not.

The Mutawatir hadith is:

"I am leaving among you two things, if you hold fast to them, you'll never go astray, one is Book of Allah and My Itrat Ahlebait. The will never seperate from each other and will meet me at hawd"

My Question is, Is Qur'an having a slightest defect? A minor error? 

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Look, everyone.  You can still  love the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) dearly. without accepting the theological baggage associated with Shiaism.

What's your point? Shia Islam is the:

Love of Ahlul Bayt + Spiritual Guidance of the Ahlul Bayt  + Political Leadership of the Ahlul Bayt + Universal Authority of the Ahlul Bayt

1 is Sunni, 1+2 is Sufi, Shias believe in all four, and 3 & 4 is exclusive to Shias.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Everyone Agrees that when it comes to religion issues this is truth, they can not make mistakes. For other than religion matters, scholars have different opinions about the mistake part.

This is what I thought too, but apparently Ibn al-Junayd al-Iskafi believed the Imams (عليه السلام) were mujtahid (according to the Sayyed Haydari video I posted [3rd ijtihad method]). Still, even if it's true, he is only one individual. As far as I can tell, every other notable Shia scholar ever has agreed that the Imams (عليه السلام) are infallible in knowing the religious law. The extent of their mistakes (or lack thereof), e.g. forgetfulness or chosing the worse of two good options, in the application of religious law has been contested. Regardless, this means that they are infallible, insofar as they are sinless, since this isn't even the issue being discussed. This last point is very basic, such that even Islamic Pulse can cover it. Al-amr al-mawlawi is a legislative command, that must be implemented, and disobeying such a command is a sin. Al-amr al-irshadi is an advisory command, to inform us about its consequences, and disobeying or "failing" in such a command is not a sin, but there will be consequences. The Prophets (عليه السلام) in the Qur'an would sometimes disobey or "make mistakes" in the second category.

Please correct me where I am wrong. Wasalam.

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On 4/8/2020 at 4:24 AM, Cool said:

What about whom God wills to keep free from errors/mistakes?

Error / Sin is the belief in separative existence itself.  God is the only reality there is.  For some "person" to have any attribute of any kind (yet even to be a separate reality to begin with) is not possible.  So your asking, can God make "someone" "free of error" is like asking if God can create a stone so heavy He cannot lift.   It is an absurd question.    

Quote

Surah An-Najm, Verse 2:
مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ

Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;
(English - Shakir)

yes. of course, only in a relative sense.  

Edited by Hameedeh
Excessive amount of empty space was removed. Please don't push the space bar at the end of your reply.

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49 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Sheesh. I am not bound to any particular sect but I find this absurd. The Caliphate has no impact on akhira.

It is not the Caliphate Per se.  It is the accusations that they were insincere, unfaithful and hypocritical even though they were amongst the first supporters of the Prophet (S).  This is ingratitude.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 4/8/2020 at 2:49 PM, eThErEaL said:

Yes it is kufr.

Brother hadith of Saheeh bukhari ie Sunni authentic book rejects  your supposition:

:(1) Belief

Chapter: The statement of the Prophet (saws) "Islam is based on five principles
(1)
بَابُ الإِيمَانِ وَقَوْلِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: «بُنِيَ الإِسْلاَمُ عَلَى خَمْسٍ»
وَهُوَ قَوْلٌ وَفِعْلٌ، وَيَزِيدُ وَيَنْقُصُ. قَالَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى: {لِيَزْدَادُوا إِيمَانًا مَعَ إِيمَانِهِمْ}، {وَزِدْنَاهُمْ هُدًى}، {وَيَزِيدُ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ اهْتَدَوْا هُدًى}، {وَالَّذِينَ اهْتَدَوْا زَادَهُمْ هُدًى وَآتَاهُمْ تَقْوَاهُمْ}، {وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا}، وَقَوْلُهُ: {أَيُّكُمْ زَادَتْهُ هَذِهِ إِيمَانًا فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَزَادَتْهُمْ إِيمَانًا}. وَقَوْلُهُ جَلَّ ذِكْرُهُ: {فَاخْشَوْهُمْ فَزَادَهُمْ إِيمَانًا}. وَقَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى: {وَمَا زَادَهُمْ إِلاَّ إِيمَانًا وَتَسْلِيمًا}. 
وَالْحُبُّ فِي اللَّهِ وَالْبُغْضُ فِي اللَّهِ مِنَ الإِيمَانِ. 
وَكَتَبَ عُمَرُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ إِلَى عَدِيِّ بْنِ عَدِيٍّ إِنَّ لِلإِيمَانِ فَرَائِضَ وَشَرَائِعَ وَحُدُودًا وَسُنَنًا، فَمَنِ اسْتَكْمَلَهَا اسْتَكْمَلَ الإِيمَانَ، وَمَنْ لَمْ يَسْتَكْمِلْهَا لَمْ يَسْتَكْمِلِ الإِيمَانَ، فَإِنْ أَعِشْ فَسَأُبَيِّنُهَا لَكُمْ حَتَّى تَعْمَلُوا بِهَا، وَإِنْ أَمُتْ فَمَا أَنَا عَلَى صُحْبَتِكُمْ بِحَرِيصٍ. 
وَقَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ: {وَلَكِنْ لِيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي}. 
وَقَالَ مُعَاذٌ: اجْلِسْ بِنَا نُؤْمِنْ سَاعَةً. 
وَقَالَ ابْنُ مَسْعُودٍ: الْيَقِينُ الإِيمَانُ كُلُّهُ. 
وَقَالَ ابْنُ عُمَرَ: لاَ يَبْلُغُ الْعَبْدُ حَقِيقَةَ التَّقْوَى حَتَّى يَدَعَ مَا حَاكَ فِي الصَّدْرِ. 
وَقَالَ مُجَاهِدٌ: {شَرَعَ لَكُمْ} أَوْصَيْنَاكَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ وَإِيَّاهُ دِينًا وَاحِدًا. 
وَقَالَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ: {شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا} سَبِيلاً وَسُنَّةً.
 
(2)
Chapter: Your invocation means your faith
(2)
باب دُعَاؤُكُمْ إِيمَانُكُمْ
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles):

1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Messenger (ﷺ).

2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.

3. To pay Zakat (I.e. obligatory charity) .

4. To perform Hajj. (I.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca)

5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.

حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُوسَى، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنَا حَنْظَلَةُ بْنُ أَبِي سُفْيَانَ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ بْنِ خَالِدٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ بُنِيَ الإِسْلاَمُ عَلَى خَمْسٍ شَهَادَةِ أَنْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ، وَإِقَامِ الصَّلاَةِ، وَإِيتَاءِ الزَّكَاةِ، وَالْحَجِّ، وَصَوْمِ رَمَضَانَ ‏"‏‏.‏

   

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/2/

Would you please show me where is man made caliphate in it for believer?

Edited by Hameedeh
Excessive amount of empty space was removed. Please don't push the space bar at the end of your reply.

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20 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Error / Sin is the belief in separative existence itself.  God is the only reality there is

Do you deny the creation of that only reality? Who is Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

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On 4/8/2020 at 3:14 PM, Abu Nur said:

For other than religion matters, scholars have different opinions about the mistake part.

I am of the view that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams are insaan e kamil. They neither make mistakes/errors nor do they sin.

All that is because of the divine grace & knowledge.

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48 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Denying Imamah: acceptable?

Denying khilafah: kufr?

He can't decide whether khilafa is divinely appointed or man-made. Typical. I suppose he is arguing that God allowed it, so it must be legitimate. Or that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) allowed it, so it must be legitimate. Both are terrible arguments. 

I.e. Even if a Sunni believes it to be a human construct, they believe it was the best possible situation that could have occured (it's what God allowed).

Edit: And the idea that early adopters of Islam have a special status, as they must have been earnest Muslims to have joined so soon, and are unlikely to go astray due to their early adoption.

All of it, ridiculous. The videos I posted easily debunk all these notions.
 

 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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On 4/8/2020 at 4:08 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Would you please show me where is man made caliphate in it for believer?

Non Shia are still wondering in the dilemma  of protecting and projecting the pseudo / man made caliphs but no hadith is available to justify their  false claims for blaming others as kafir. :grin:

Edited by Muslim2010

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Denying Imamah: acceptable?

Denying khilafah: kufr?

 

29 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

He can't decide whether khilafa is divinely appointed or man-made. Typical. I suppose he is arguing that God allowed it, so it must be legitimate. Or that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) allowed it, so it must be legitimate. Both are terrible arguments. 

I.e. Even if a Sunni believes it to be a human construct, they believe it was the best possible situation that could have occured (it's what God allowed).

 

1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Denying Imamah: acceptable?

Denying khilafah: kufr?

I reject all beliefs.  Whether Imamat or caliphate

Edited by eThErEaL

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12 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I reject all beliefs.  Whether Imamat or caliphate

On what basis do you reject all beliefs? For example, too much confusion and uncertainty regarding the truth? 

Anyways,  

Please answer these straight-forward questions:
Do you believe in the Imamate of the 12 Imams, and to what extent?
Do you believe the first 3 caliphs usurped Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) position?

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12 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I reject all beliefs.  Whether Imamat or caliphate

I only reject the concept of man made / people chosen caliph that does not exist in Qur'an. The caliphs chosen by Allah  (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) include Adam and Dawood AS.

There is no example of a caliph / leader chosen by the people  in Qur'an for their guidance. All the guides/ leader / Prophets / Imams have been chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance  of the people. This truth has been mentioned in many verses of Qur'an.

Edited by Muslim2010

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

I am of the view that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams are insaan e kamil. They neither make mistakes/errors nor do they sin.

All that is because of the divine grace & knowledge.

I don't agree with this nor there is any proof for this in Qur'an. All humans do some part of mistakes, that is part of their nature, that is the part to show that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is perfect in every matter. I believe and it is clear in Qur'an that God protect them for this in Religion issues.

Edited by Abu Nur

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10 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I don't agree with this nor there is any proof for this in Qur'an. All humans do some part of mistakes, that is part of their nature, that is the part to show that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is perfect in every matter. I believe and it is clear in Qur'an that God protect them for this in Religion issues.

This saintification is a ghuluw innovation. I’ve heard bizarre ideas that the Imams don’t even reproduce the najis way us fallible beings do. Rather they just look into their spouse eyes and magically a child is conceived. Also Imams are not do not exit from the mothers reproductive organ. Rather they exit from the thigh to avoid any najasat.

I wish I was making this up.

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1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

He can't decide whether khilafa is divinely appointed or man-made. Typical. I suppose he is arguing that God allowed it, so it must be legitimate. Or that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) allowed it, so it must be legitimate. Both are terrible arguments. 

I.e. Even if a Sunni believes it to be a human construct, they believe it was the best possible situation that could have occured (it's what God allowed).

Edit: And the idea that early adopters of Islam have a special status, as they must have been earnest Muslims to have joined so soon, and are unlikely to go astray due to their early adoption.

All of it, ridiculous. The videos I posted easily debunk all these notions.
 

 

Please let the brother answer for himself. I don't recall him appointing you as his spokesperson. 

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4 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Please let the brother answer for himself. I don't recall him appointing you as his spokesperson. 

Let's indeed see if he answers. Edit: by that I mean beyond "I reject all beliefs. Whether Imamat or Caliphate"

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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Guest In Allah we trust
On 4/8/2020 at 1:01 AM, eThErEaL said:

Look, everyone.  You can still  love the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) dearly. without accepting the theological baggage associated with Shiaism.

No human being is infallible.  To say a human individual is infallible is shirk. 

I believe the Prophet was infallible in terms of not sinning and in religious matters.

 However, Jibraeel is also sinless.

The Prophet could have chosen a less virtuous thing in place of a more virtuous one. He could have made errors in mathematics. He felt sad, got angry, ate, slept with his halal wives, and desires, had colds, had bodily functions. He was a baby who once required round the clock care. 

While I believe he was Masuum, I reject this new belief developed hundreds, find not a thousand plus years later, that he controls every atom of the universes, knows everything including plant biology and not Einstein’s theory of relativity, in real time knows everything, is the one we directly call upon to GRANT our prayers (not intercession). 

I hope this is clear?

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