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In the Name of God بسم الله
786:)

Kamal al Haydari on ghulat

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5 minutes ago, 786:) said:

What makes God unique from Imams?

"Like Him there is nothing". In fact there is just God. 

Surah An-Noor, Verse 35:
اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِن شَجَرَةٍ مُّبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَّا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ نُّورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

Allah is the light of the heavens and the Earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.
(English - Shakir)

 

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39 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Let’s be honest, in mainstream circles it’s a bigger crime to take away from the Imams than it is to take away from Allah. This video of Kamaal Haydari does a good job of explaining this phenomenon.

It is as if the only way one can commit shirk is if one says “there are two Gods”. Nothing else constitutes shirk anymore. You can give every single attribute of Allah to the Imams and the mainstream Shias will be okay with it simply with the idea of “with the permission of Allah”. They have left no difference between the two. To me this is blatant shirk.

Im very glad to have met you! Alhamdulilah 

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32 minutes ago, 786:) said:

What makes God unique from Imams? Just the fact that he is the creator of them? All else is equal?

Firstly, we live God-centric lives... Secondly, mainstream layman Shias don't believe that the Imams have been bestowed all- attributes (all-encompassing attributes). I don't know where everybody keeps getting this idea from. This is what the mainstream think:

Quote

According to Shiites, just like Prophets, the infallible Imam (a) receives his knowledge of the unseen from God,[14] and his knowledge is intuitive, that is, it will be accessible to him whenever he wants (it is not required that the knowledge be actual all the time).[15] According to some hadiths, whenever Imam (a) wants to know something, God will give him the knowledge thereof.[16]

Please read this: http://en.wikishia.net/view/Ilm_al-ghayb

Imam's knowledge of the unseen only conditionally upon request from God.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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42 minutes ago, 786:) said:

This video of Kamaal Haydari does a good job of explaining this phenomenon

What has been said earlier, was sufficient for showing the absurdity of his arguments.

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(Continued) http://en.wikishia.net/view/Ilm_al-ghayb

Quote

The View of Imamiyya Theologians

There are some major views about Imam's knowledge of the unseen among Shiite theologians:

  • Imam's absolute and actual knowledge only of the Elimination and Addition Tablet.
  • Imam's knowledge of the unseen only conditionally upon request from God.
  • Agnosticism about the details of Imam's knowledge of the unseen.
  • Limited knowledge of Imam (a) to some things which are required for his imamate and leadership.[23]

The Scope of Imam's Knowledge of the Unseen

According to Shiite beliefs, Imam's knowledge includes everything he needs in his imamate and leadership.[24] Some Shiite hadiths tell us that the scope of Imam's knowledge of the unseen includes everything that has occurred or is going to occur in the world (maximalism), and that God does not appoint someone as Imam unless he is capable of responding to people's questions.[25] Here are some instances of Imam's knowledge of the unseen:

  • Imam's knowledge of the Qur'an, its absolute (mutlaq) and limited (muqayyad) statements, general and particular statemnets, and al-nasikh wa al-mansukh (verses that abrogate other verses, and ones that are abrogated).
  • Knowledge of other Sacred Scriptures.
  • Knowledge of whatever has happened or is going to happen in the future.
  • Knowledge of deaths and catastrophes.[26]
  • Knowledge of divine mysteries.[29]
  • Knowledge of divine laws.[30]

Imam's Ways of Access to Knowledge of the Unseen

According to Shiite sources, Imam (a) has different ways of access to the unseen or hidden information, including:

a. Receiving the knowledge from the Prophet (s): there is a hadith from Imam al-Rida (a) according to which Imam has received his knowledge from the Prophet (s), who has received it in turn from Jabra'il (Gabriel).[31] And there is a hadith from Imam al-Baqir (a) according to which Imams (a) possess knowledge of what God has taught his angels and Prophets (a).[32] This sort of teaching is done in different ways:

  • Normal teachings: in this way of teaching, Imam Ali (a) heard the Prophet's (s) words, just like other people, though (because of his capacities) he has learned much more.[33]
  • Non-normal ways: in this way of teaching, which is specific to Imams (a), they have received the teachings via unusual ways, such as the following:
  1. The knowledge that the Prophet (s) gave to Imam Ali (a) in the last hours of his life. According to some hadiths, in those moments he received from the Prophet (s) a vast amount of knowledge equivalent to one thousand sections in each of which there were a thousand other sections of knowledge. It included knowledge of past and future events, catastrophes and judgments. This knowledge is, according to Shiites, a heritage of imamate that is transferred from one Imam to his successor.[34]
  2. Through kitab al-jami'a (the Comprehensive Book): according to Shiites, this is a book written down by Imam Ali (a) from what the Prophet (s) told him, including news and information needed by an Imam, and this is also transferred from one Imam to his successor, according to Shiites.[35]
  3. Through kitab al-jafr (the Book of Jafr): this book is, according to some hadiths, a heritage of the Prophets and their successors, containing the information had by Prophets and Israelite scholars. It also contains Zabur which is the book of the Prophet Dawud (a), Torah which is the book of Prophet Moses (a), Gospel which is the book of Jesus (a), and Suhuf which is the book of Prophet Ibrahim (a).[36]

b. Through Mushaf Fatima (a) (the Book of Fatima (a)): according to some hadiths, the Book of Fatima is a collection of Lady Fatima al-Zahra's (a) conversations with angels, containing information about future events until the Resurrection. Lady Fatima (a) reported them to Imam Ali (a) and he wrote them down.[37] There is a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a) according to which the Book of Fatima contains information about the future.[38]

c. Through revelation and conversation with angels: Hassan b. Yahya al-Mada'ini asked Imam al-Sadiq (a) about how Imam answers the questions he is asked, and he replied: sometimes it is revealed to him, sometimes he hears it from an angel, and sometimes both.[39]

The Benefits of Imams' Knowledge of the Unseen

According to Muhammad Rida Muzaffar, there are some benefits for Imams' knowledge of the unseen:

  • Benefits for the Islamic Umma.
  • Increasing the power of Islamic leaders.
  • The completion of the divine grace in His appointment of Imams (a).[40]

Arguments and Evidence for Imams' Knowledge of the Unseen

According to some hadiths, Imam is the heir of the Prophets' knowledge[41] and the treasure of divine knowledge.[42] Shiites appeal to some hadiths to argue for this doctrine, including the hadith from the Prophet (s):

"I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate".[43]

According to a hadith, after Hisham heared Imam al-Sadiq's (a) answers to 500 problems in theology, he told the Imam: I know that the problems of halal and haram are in your hands, but is this knowledge of kalam? Imam al-Sadiq (a) replied: Woe to you, Hisham! God does not appoint an Imam for people unless he has (knowledge of) everything people need.[44]

Knowledge of the Unseen by Other People

Knowledge of the unseen is not limited to Prophets (a) and infallible Imams (a); some other people might have degrees of such knowledge. There are references in the Qur'an to some of such people:

 

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Tawhid 101.

Tawhid of Essence:  God is the only Essence.  There is no essence but His Essence.

Tawhid of Attributes:  All attributes belong to God, not to anyone else.  All attributes are hierarchical and are all encompassed under one all-encompassing attribute. 

Tawhid of Acts: All acts are His.  And all acts are nothing but One Timelessly Eternal Act.

Now, if this is understood, there is no need to have any discussion.  Whether there is a Superman or Zeus, who cares.  

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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6 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Tawhid of Acts: All acts are His.  And all acts are nothing but One Timelessly Eternal Act.

Please elaborate, Iblis not prostrating before Adam (عليه السلام) was act of whom? 

Surah Suad, Verse 75:
قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ

He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
(English - Shakir)

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Cool said:

Please elaborate, Iblis not prostrating before Adam (عليه السلام) was act of whom? 

Surah Suad, Verse 75:
قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ

He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
(English - Shakir)

I am sorry,

but are you disagreeing with Tawhid of Afaal?  

Yes or No?

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 3/30/2020 at 9:29 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

Behold the new "Prophet" !

I advise ShiaChat admin to issue a fatwa against you 

So, if the Prophet (S) said the end is here (at that time), then why can't I say it?

You know, it is actually a sign of kufr to think the end is not here.

 

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So, if the Prophet (S) said the end is here (at that time), then why can't I say it?

You know, it is actually a sign of kufr to think the end is not here.

 

How soon is now ?

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3 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

You should if you are making those claims 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made specific predictions in ahadith not just blanket statements 

Actually he himself (S) didn't know when the Hour would be.  He just knew signs.  All he said is that it was very close by.

when he was asked when the Hour will come, he put his thumb and index finger almost touching each other, saying "this close".

Edited by eThErEaL

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31 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I am sorry,

but are you disagreeing with Tawhid of Afaal?  

Yes or No?

 

 

La howla wala quwwata illa billah

How can I disagree with haqq? 

Just wanted to know whether your concept of tawheed e af'Ali is based on jabr or is there any space of "imma shakiran wa imma kafoora". 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

La howla wala quwwata illa billah

How can I disagree with haqq? 

Just wanted to know whether your concept of tawheed e af'Ali is based on jabr or is there any space of "imma shakiran wa imma kafoora". 

 

What do you think?

 

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20 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Actually he himself (S) didn't know when the Hour would be.  He just knew signs.  All he said is that it was very close by.

Not only he but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) also mentioned it in several places in Qur'an:

Surah Al-Qamar, Verse 1:
اقْتَرَبَتِ السَّاعَةُ وَانشَقَّ الْقَمَرُ

The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Muhammad, Verse 18:
فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا السَّاعَةَ أَن تَأْتِيَهُم بَغْتَةً فَقَدْ جَاءَ أَشْرَاطُهَا فَأَنَّىٰ لَهُمْ إِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ ذِكْرَاهُمْ

Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?
(English - Shakir)

 

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

What do you think?

 

I can only hope! And in that sense I just wanted to keep husn e dhan for you. The phrase "Imma shakiran wa imma kafoora" is also referring to an act of God. 

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56 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So, if the Prophet (S) said the end is here (at that time), then why can't I say it?

Because you said it to justify this:

On 3/29/2020 at 11:05 PM, eThErEaL said:

Anyway, the end of the world is here... we will soon know the truth, no point even discussing it.


From Qiyamah predictions we know we are nowhere close, though yes we should always live our lives as if we are close or preparing for it.

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3 hours ago, Cool said:

I can only hope! And in that sense I just wanted to keep husn e dhan for you. The phrase "Imma shakiran wa imma kafoora" is also referring to an act of God. 

Like everything about the world (I.e. everything other than God), human free-will is also relative.  
What does relative mean?  Relative means: (yes / no).  “Yes” in one respect, and “no” in another respect.  
Do “you” have free will?  
It depends what is mean’t by “you”.  
if “you” is a separate person or thing, then no, you don’t have free will.  If you “you” is the ultimately one, indivisible, borderless and eternal reality, then YES,  you have a will that is truly free.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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Salam,

Subject: Maksuum

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ...Absolute Protector and He will protect.

Prophets and Imams...protected humans.  Protected by Absolute Protector.  They are tasked to tell or communicate with humans on how to be protected until qiamat.

WE...are humans who are free to chose, to be protected on not.

We (unprotected) need to be with Prophets and Imams (protected and knows to get protection from Allahbswt) in other to be with Absolute Protector.  It is a never ending process.

We are blind, deaf, uninformed..the lowest of lowest need hands of protected Humans in order to reach to our Absolute Protector.

This is why I believe in 12 Imams.

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On 3/30/2020 at 10:21 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam majority of Sunni practices like wudu & Namaz & Azan based on bida’h (innovation) of three caliphs through Ummayid proxy even salafis & Wahabists are insisting on Bid’ah like “ Salat Tarawih “ & Ummayid innovation about celebrating & fasting in day of Ashura that every year these issues are expanding more in Sunni community.

yes!

There's many bidah in Sunnism, like the added line during Fajr prayer that says prayer is better than sleep, like saying "ameen" after al-fatihah when the Qur'an does not, among other things, like you said wudu

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51 minutes ago, MuhammadFreeman said:

yes!

There's many bidah in Sunnism, like the added line during Fajr prayer that says prayer is better than sleep, like saying "ameen" after al-fatihah when the Qur'an does not, among other things, like you said wudu

Yup, many of them thanks to:

 

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The most dangerous ones among all are the attributes they attribute to our Imams (عليه السلام) that they Imams never attributed to themselves AND in same time we justify them

I have came to conclusion that many people don't even study Qur'an or recite it often, because if we did, we clearly will distant ourselves from all these practices and beliefs that have nothing but shirk nature.

 

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Don't sunnify Shi'ism!

That's all I can say, after watching the video in the OP. 

Our notion of Tawhid is linked to Walaya. We cannot properly know or understand Tawhid, without properly understanding Walaya. 

So, I'd be careful listening or following whoever that is downplaying the significance of Imamah. 

 

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اللَّهُ وَلِيُّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا يُخْرِجُهُم مِّنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۖ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَوْلِيَاؤُهُمُ الطَّاغُوتُ يُخْرِجُونَهُم مِّنَ النُّورِ إِلَى الظُّلُمَاتِ ۗ أُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ النَّارِ ۖ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ

Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide. (2:257)

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant. (5:56)

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That is your opinion. I wholeheartedly accept everything Kamal al Haydari said in the video. Also, highlighting tawheed does not downplay wilayah. The fact is that Islam's core most important pillar is Tawheed. Shias have auctioned off tawheed to the Sunnis and doubled down on Wilayah. When the Prophet brought Islam to the Arabs, the core message was Tawheed. He wasnt running around telling people about Wilayah.

Kamal al Haydari isnt telling anyone to stop talking about Wilayah nor is he denying it as a principle. What he is saying is that Tawheed is not talked about enough off the Shia pulpits. Our speakers must have this implied arrogance and just assume the audience has all the knowledge in the world about Tawhid when that is so far from the truth.

Edited by 786:)

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4 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

اللَّهُ وَلِيُّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا يُخْرِجُهُم مِّنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۖ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَوْلِيَاؤُهُمُ الطَّاغُوتُ يُخْرِجُونَهُم مِّنَ النُّورِ إِلَى الظُّلُمَاتِ ۗ أُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ النَّارِ ۖ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ

Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide. (2:257)

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant. (5:56)

This is awesome, but no one is denying wilayah. You can start another topic if you are trying to prove it to someone. Please do not derail this topic.

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16 minutes ago, 786:) said:

The fact is that Islam's core most important pillar is Tawheed. Shias have auctioned off tawheed to the Sunnis and doubled down on Wilayah. When the Prophet brought Islam to the Arabs, the core message was Tawheed. He wasnt running around telling people about Wilayah.

Here's another fact: You can't understand and properly believe in Tawheed, without understand and believing in Walaya. Tawheed and Walaya are closely intertwined and inseparable. When you study Walaya, you're studying Tawheed. 

Shi'ites (the ones who have studied the faith) have not auctioned off Tawheed, rather they've understood it properly and more comprehensively. 

Prophet's message was completed only after Ali was, publically and openly, announced as his Wasi and Wali of people. This clearly indicates that Tawheed without Walaya is incomplete, and not believing or following Walaya entails not following or believing in Tawheed. 

Shi'ites focus on Walaya to portray a complete picture of Tawheed. Walaya complements Tawheed, it does not contradict Tawheed. 

23 minutes ago, 786:) said:

What he is saying is that Tawheed is not talked about enough off the Shia pulpits.

I've never gotten this sense. He's probably just trying to appeal to Sunnis. 

In Shi'ite narrations, there's an immense focus and emphasis on Tawheed. Similarly, there's an immense focus and emphasis on Walaya. And most books that I've read, bring forth both, and how they're linked and inseparable.

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3 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I've never gotten this sense. He's probably just trying to appeal to Sunnis. 

In Shi'ite narrations, there's an immense focus and emphasis on Tawheed. Similarly, there's an immense focus and emphasis on Walaya. And most books that I've read, bring forth both, and how they're linked and inseparable.

Completely Agree.

29 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Our speakers must have this implied arrogance and just assume the audience has all the knowledge in the world about Tawhid when that is so far from the truth.

Completely Agree.

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

I've never gotten this sense. He's probably just trying to appeal to Sunnis. 

In Shi'ite narrations, there's an immense focus and emphasis on Tawheed. Similarly, there's an immense focus and emphasis on Walaya. And most books that I've read, bring forth both, and how they're linked and inseparable.

Appease Sunnis? So a Shia cannot sincerely try to promote Tawheed?? That is appeasing Sunnis?

Here's what you fail to understand. The common Shia does not read the books of the Shia. The vast majority rely on the pulpits to consume that information. The problem is the pulpits only relay a fraction of what is in those books. This is what Kamal al Haydari is saying. The speakers marginally speak about Tawheed so how can the speakers assume the laymen know everything about Tawheed when the laymen rely on the speakers for knowledge? Do you see the fallacy.

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7 minutes ago, 786:) said:

The speakers marginally speak about Tawheed

Still, by your logic they would speak about Tawheed in conjunction to Imamate.

7 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Appease Sunnis? So a Shia cannot sincerely try to promote Tawheed?? That is appeasing Sunnis?

It could be argued that it's a legitimate Scholarly tactic to appease Sunnis. 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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49 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Appease Sunnis? So a Shia cannot sincerely try to promote Tawheed?? That is appeasing Sunnis?

Here's what you fail to understand. The common Shia does not read the books of the Shia. The vast majority rely on the pulpits to consume that information. The problem is the pulpits only relay a fraction of what is in those books. This is what Kamal al Haydari is saying. The speakers marginally speak about Tawheed so how can the speakers assume the laymen know everything about Tawheed when the laymen rely on the speakers for knowledge? Do you see the fallacy.

Talking about Imamah and Walaya is talking about Tawheed. This is what I'm trying to say. How can anyone separate the two? 

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^Agreed. Which is why denying divinely appointed individuals (or accepting non- divinely appointed individuals) is Shirk. Divinely appointed logically necessitates that they be Infallible to an extent.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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Guest Pschological Warfare

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)

https://www.al-Islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

If you do not accept what has been delivered to "You", you have not understood the message at all.

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