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In the Name of God بسم الله
786:)

Kamal al Haydari on ghulat

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This is why I have abandoned munazrah / comparative religions. They will pigeon hole your thoughts with their accusations while never acknowledging anything. Instead focus on our deen. Focus on the ancient scholars. Try to obey the ma'soomeen by at least trying to mimic their actions and avoiding what they avoided. They did everything for Allah and so should we.

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I think if the mainstream Shias delved more into the topic of the ghulat then they would be more aware of the truth of behind a lot of the bizarre customs and ideas propagating under the name of Ahlul Bayt. However, it is hidden from the masses because the ghulat-driven culture has become a decent industry.

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7 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I think if the mainstream Shias delved more into the topic of the ghulat then they would be more aware of the truth of behind a lot of the bizarre customs and ideas propagating under the name of Ahlul Bayt. However, it is hidden from the masses because the ghulat-driven culture has become a decent industry.

No brother we have a proper confrontation going on with the ghulat since a few years here in Pakistan at least. It has come about after their uneducated speakers started calling "jalla jalalahu" to the Imams, even their horse Zuljinah, and have made it a objective to spread ghuluw from our pulpits. Their poetries from their singers aka noha khawan or manqabat or qaseeda khwan is always turning the ma'soomeen into gods. They even have the slogan of "Ali Allah" beings raised in their majalis held in the city of Lahore. We have identified foreign funding ambassadors and the faithless professional speakers out to make money only and know them all by names. We have made a special committee comprising of 12 aalims in the city of Karachi to counter these people. We fear they have been paid to create enough evidence to declare Shia as kuffar in the parliament of Pakistan (I think they have done this exact thing in Malaysia I think). There has been a lot of widespread ionization here due to this issue in recent years.

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11 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

No brother we have a proper confrontation going on with the ghulat since a few years here in Pakistan at least. It has come about after their uneducated speakers started calling "jalla jalalahu" to the Imams, even their horse Zuljinah, and have made it a objective to spread ghuluw from our pulpits. Their poetries from their singers aka noha khawan or manqabat or qaseeda khwan is always turning the ma'soomeen into gods. They even have the slogan of "Ali Allah" beings raised in their majalis held in the city of Lahore. We have identified foreign funding ambassadors and the faithless professional speakers out to make money only and know them all by names. We have made a special committee comprising of 12 aalims in the city of Karachi to counter these people. We fear they have been paid to create enough evidence to declare Shia as kuffar in the parliament of Pakistan (I think they have done this exact thing in Malaysia I think). There has been a lot of widespread ionization here due to this issue in recent years.

I’m going simply by what I see in the west. I am not aware of the conditions of Pakistan. In the west, those same nohakhwans and entertainment zakireens are still being applauded for their “holy” efforts. If you question the poetry of the nohakhwan or zakireen it is as if you are questioning the word of Allah. They have brainwashed the masses by emotionally blackmailing them with the idea that if one questions the notion that Imams‘ attributes  = Allah’s attributes then one is a denier of Ahlul Bayt.

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Guest Pschological Warfare

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235034818-a-dialogue-on-your-understanding-of-shirk/?tab=comments#comment-2879294

Even Iblis did not deny Allah(عزّ وجلّ) or HIS(عزّ وجلّ) Authority or created an Equal. Problem has always been and will be 

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {56}

[Pickthal 5:56] And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious.

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25 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I’m going simply by what I see in the west. I am not aware of the conditions of Pakistan. In the west, those same nohakhwans and entertainment zakireens are still being applauded for their “holy” efforts. If you question the poetry of the nohakhwan or zakireen it is as if you are questioning the word of Allah. They have brainwashed the masses by emotionally blackmailing them with the idea that if one questions the notion that Imams‘ attributes  = Allah’s attributes then one is a denier of Ahlul Bayt.

I guess individuals there will also be ionized over this issue soon because these days the ghuluw pandemic is showing intolerable symptoms. I am sure they will follow suite.

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1 minute ago, The Green Knight said:

I guess individuals there will also be ionized over this issue soon because these days the ghuluw pandemic is showing intolerable symptoms. I am sure they will follow suite.

I sure hope so. We need the Urdu scholars to step up to the plate and denounce the ghuluw.

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Guest Pschological Warfare
Quote

topic of the ghulat 

Here

Legal Definition

"..Ghulat (I.e. those who believe one of the holy twelve Imams to be God or say that God has penetrated into him)..."

Ayatullah Abul Qasim al-Khu'I.

https://www.al-Islam.org/Islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/impure-things-najasat#infidel

"..Ghulat who believe in any of the holy twelve Imams as God, or that they are incarnations of God.."

Ayatullah al-Sayyid Ali al-Hussani al-Sistani.

http://www.Sistani.org/english/book/48/2132/

"ghulÁt—those who believe in the divinity of an Imam or believe that God dwells within their bodies—"

ÀyatullÁh al-‘UÛmÁ Shaykh Íusain WaÎÐd KhurÁsÁnÐ

Page 35

http://wahidkhorasani.com/Data/Books/Islamic LAWS.pdf

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Just now, 786:) said:

I sure hope so. We need the Urdu scholars to step up to the plate and denounce the ghuluw.

As Kamal Hyderi has pointed out, the problem seems to be affecting profoundly among the Akhbari. Therefore the Akhbari will have to perform the feat of producing as much aware individuals. They already possess bitter hatred for the Usooli. May be a problem.

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Here too the method of attack of the ghaalis is to attack Taqleed or consultation of the main body of scholars. They will defame, curse and denounce them and their affiliates in the country or anyone who disagrees while calling them "muqassir".

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Guest Psychological Warfare
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same nohakhwans and entertainment zakireens 

It is not proper and actually misleading to talk about Azadari under this topic. Start a new topic where the contents and intention(s) are clearly articulated.

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6 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

As Kamal Hyderi has pointed out, the problem seems to be affecting profoundly among the Akhbari. Therefore the Akhbari will have to perform the feat of producing as much aware individuals. They already possess bitter hatred for the Usooli. May be a problem.

The problem comes when the general masses do not know the difference between akhbaari vs usooli. Most of these entertainers are akhbaari, but they also get invites from usooli centers.

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Guest In Allah we trust

I have recognised the problems Sayed Hayderi has been talking about. I myself saw it in my own community growing up, from my mid-teens, decided to begin to speak out against it very early on in my late teens. 

You will be called all sorts of names because you're popping a protective bubble some people find comfort in. Change and reform is always met with resistance and hostility. 

Ultimately you'll be cast away and exiled, much like Sayed Hayderi has done. He's been ridiculed, mocked, his words distorted, his character assassinated. It is the price to pray for siding with truth, whatever your emotions may be, and speaking things as they are. Speaking truth to power.

 

Sayed Fadllulah (rh), and Sayed Najafi, and Sayed Kamal have all been ridiculed. 

 

Sayed Fadlulllah has terrible rumours spread about him. Sayed Najafi is ridiculed by indo-paks as 'Dhakku' , and Sayed Kamal is also maligned.

You look into what it is they are mocked about and it turns out to either be pure lies, distortions, character assasinations, or opposition to very logical criticism the scholars have evidenced quite well.

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9 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Here too the method of attack of the ghaalis is to attack Taqleed or consultation of the main body of scholars. They will defame, curse and denounce them and their affiliates in the country or anyone who disagrees while calling them "muqassir".

But they do have a point 

Imami shiaism does have the habit of " shifting goalposts " so what was bidah yesterday becomes sunnah today and vice versa at the whim of ulemas 

Not that Sunnis suffer from the same malaise to a lesser extent 

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18 hours ago, 786:) said:

I sure hope so. We need the Urdu scholars to step up to the plate and denounce the ghuluw.

Like Ayatullah Najafi of Pakistan, the one they mock as 'Dhakku'? Anyone with the guts to try will be abused, distorted and maligned. 

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On 3/29/2020 at 8:57 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

It's called a change of opinion. Shifting the goalposts is a type of logical fallacy.

But here is the thing if 12er chain of transmission is so perfect why is there so much change of opinion ?

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12 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

But they do have a point 

Imami shiaism does have the habit of " shifting goalposts " so what was bidah yesterday becomes sunnah today

Can you reference a bidah of yesterday that has become sunnah of today?

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41 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

why is there so much change of opinion ?

1) The changes of opinion are in the slightest areas, that are irrelevant compared to the massive consensus and absolute rulings.
2) The Sunni Madhhabs can't agree on anything, yet they accept the opinion of each other as acceptable. Their differences in fiqh rulings are massive, but nobody bats an eye. Even within a Madhhab they can't agree to a large extent. Now consider the whole Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jammah with Sufi, Salafi, Barelvi, Deobandi, etc, (the latter two being Hanafi).
3) Why is this relevant to a conversation on ghuluw (aqaid conversation not fiqhi)?

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

1) The changes of opinion are in the slightest areas, that are irrelevant compared to the massive consensus and absolute rulings.
2) The Sunni Madhhabs can't agree on anything, yet they accept the opinion of each other as acceptable. Their differences in fiqh rulings are massive, but nobody bats an eye. Even within a Madhhab they can't agree to a large extent. Now consider the whole Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jammah with Sufi, Salafi, Barelvi, Deobandi, etc, (the latter two being Hanafi).
3) Why is this relevant to a conversation on ghuluw (aqaid conversation not fiqhi)?

As its wrong to just pick on akhbaris as the freaks 

I'm not defending Sunni madhabs either see my first post 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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Its true.

People claiming to be Akhbaris (who have firm believe in absuing Usoolis) are inclined towards ghulu.

I have seen videos of Ghazanfar Tonsvi and Asif Alvi on Birth/Death of Shahbaz Qalandar lol.

People really believe in all this crap?

Shahbaz Qalandar died, then molvi came to give him bath and he caught his hand and said NO! XD

And He used to fly he used to do this that all Sufi [Edited Out] that got into shiaism. And I'm pretty straight forward in expressing my views.

People also exaggerate status of Imams and when you tell them, they will say first you have to define boundry of fazail e Aima (عليه السلام) in order to prove ghulu. And then Mention some hadiths.

1. Anyone who thinks Aima (عليه السلام) are Allah, is the cursed one.

2. Anyone who thinks Allah is mohtaj of anyone, is the cursed one.

3. Anyone who thinks, Aima (عليه السلام) got ghaib on their own is the cursed one.

4. Anyone who believes that Aima (عليه السلام) are afzal than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the cursed one.

All these things are gulu.

Never forget Muqasirs on the other side though.

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13 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Not that Sunnis suffer from the same malaise to a lesser extent

Salam majority of Sunni practices like wudu & Namaz & Azan based on bida’h (innovation) of three caliphs through Ummayid proxy even salafis & Wahabists are insisting on Bid’ah like “ Salat Tarawih “ & Ummayid innovation about celebrating & fasting in day of Ashura that every year these issues are expanding more in Sunni community.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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12 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

1. Anyone who thinks Aima (عليه السلام) are Allah, is the cursed one.

2. Anyone who thinks Allah is mohtaj of anyone, is the cursed one.

3. Anyone who thinks, Aima (عليه السلام) got ghaib on their own is the cursed one.

4. Anyone who believes that Aima (عليه السلام) are afzal than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the cursed one.

All these things are gulu.

Never forget Muqasirs on the other side though.

One question,

Would these apply too?:

1. Anyone who claims the Aimmah have full Ilm-ul-Ghayb, rather than a partial ammount of it, are cursed. Allah has infinite knowledge. None but Allah has infinite knowledge I.e. total knowledge of all there ever is or was or could be. Do we agree anyone who claims the Imams can possess this are Najis, cursed, and are outside of the folds of Islam? I do and I hope you do too.

2. Anyone who attributes to the Aimmah that which they did not attribute to themselves through clear Nass/Text are cursed.

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14 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 fasting in day of Ashura that every year these issues are expanding more in Sunni community.

Didn't Sayed Khui (may Allah bless his soul) claim it was Mustahab to fast on Ashura, according to Saheeh Ahadith from our Aimmah?

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12 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

How about the nature of imamate?

The answer should be in reference to bidah of yesterday that has become sunnah of today? I'm not sure how Imamate is the answer? unless you care to expound on this a bit?

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He’s of the opinion that infallibility was a later concept introduced in tashayyu. It was not an original concept from the origin of Islam.

His statement in the video was to illustrate how the Shias have gone overboard with isma to where now they try to attribute isma to Zainab and Abbas.

Edited by 786:)

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Just now, 786:) said:

He’s of the opinion that infallibility was a later concept introduced in tashayyu. It was not an original concept from the origin of Islam.

Finally another Shia on Earth other than me alhamdulilah! What a good sign! masha Allah

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