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In the Name of God بسم الله
Eren

Jesus was crucified and the Qur'an supports this

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Hello,

I find it strange that so many Muslims teach and believe that Jesus was not crucified and didn't die. This view is completely antithetical to what the Qur'an teaches:

"Over the history of Islam, most Muslim commentators have come to deny that Jesus was ever crucified at all, with many holding that a substitute was crucified in his place1. But does this view accurately reflect the Qur’anic position? It is necessary to examine the full context of the above verse – a verse which is too often referred to only in isolation. The group of verses which immediately precede the verse in question discuss the misdeeds of the People of the Book (ahl al-kitab):

In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God. That they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, 'Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God’s Word; We need no more)';- Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;- That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the Son of Mary, the Messenger of God.';- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
- Holy Qur'an 4:155-157

The Qur’anic denial of the crucifixion must be understood in its proper context: the Qur’an is only denying that the People of the Book crucified Jesus – and this appears to be in response to their boasting to have done so. A neutral reader may easily conclude that the Qur’an intends to say that the death of Jesus was ultimately due to God’s will and not the desires of those who may have actually killed him. One then wonders: how did the view that Jesus was not crucified take root in the Islamic world?

Interestingly, the earliest textual evidence stating that Muslims deny the historical event of the crucifixion is not actually Muslim at all - it comes from the writings of the Christian Church Father, St. John of Damascus.2 He made the statement to his Christian flock in the eight century, asserting that the Qur’an denied Christ’s crucifixion for his own polemical purposes of refuting the early success of Islam."

For more information read this:

https://www.themathesontrust.org/papers/Islam/andani-crucifixion.pdf

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56 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

What a strange interpretation from clear verse. 

There is about nothing "stranger" than an evilgelical promoting the Words of the Devil.

Besides, for Christians, choosing the crucifixtion story was the primary way they had the separate themselves from the heretics in the 4th and 5th Century. Then because it became embedded in the canon, and they still have it 1500 years later. lt is their thing.

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8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

What a strange interpretation from clear verse. 

It is pretty clear for those who have basic reading comprehension and understand the importance of context. Christ was crucified and the Qur'an and Bible agree on this. The link I attached goes over this in detail.

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7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

There is about nothing "stranger" than an evilgelical promoting the Words of the Devil.

Besides, for Christians, choosing the crucifixtion story was the primary way they had the separate themselves from the heretics in the 4th and 5th Century. Then because it became embedded in the canon, and they still have it 1500 years later. lt is their thing.

The Qur'an supports the biblical narrative with regards to the crucifixion. Read the link.

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They did not kill nor crucify him,  

But does this necessarily mean that he wasn't killed nor crucified?  The Qur'an is simply saying that those who say: "We killed him" are not incorrect.

"... but it was made to appear so."

This part brings in ambiguity.

I am not advocating anything.  I am just saying that things may not be as clear as most people imagine.  

 

It is also interesting, that the Qur'an seems to be critical of those who say "We killed him".  Do Christians say that?  No they don't.

Christians believe he was killed and crucified.  Why doesn't the Qur'an focus on the Christain belief and deny that?  For example,

Why wouldn't the Qur'an say:  "as for the Christians, they say, the Messiah was killed (by the Jews)!", but he was not killed nor crucified!

a statement like this would have been more clear in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

They did not kill nor crucify him,  

But does this necessarily mean that he wasn't killed nor crucified?  The Qur'an is simply saying that those who say: "We killed him" are not incorrect.

"... but it was made to appear so."

This part brings in ambiguity.

I am not advocating anything.  I am just saying that things may not be as clear as most people imagine.  

 

It is also interesting, that the Qur'an seems to be critical of those who say "We killed him".  Do Christians say that?  No they don't.

Christians believe he was killed and crucified.  Why doesn't the Qur'an focus on the Christain belief and deny that?  For example,

Why wouldn't the Qur'an say:  "as for the Christians, they say, the Messiah was killed (by the Jews)!", but he was not killed nor crucified!

a statement like this would have been more clear in my opinion.

I respect your take. Yes, it's not as clear as people believe. It says THEY did not kill him or crucify him, not that he didn't die or wasn't crucified. It appeared to them that they killed him, but they ultimately didn't have that power.

I think the Isma'ili interpretation is the most correct I've read. 

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Hey,

 

Brother the Qur'an isn't sufficient but with the tafseer(exegesis)

 

Lets take this verse as an example

 

One Who wants the harvest of the Hereafter, We will Increase in his harvest for him, and one who wants the harvest of the world, We would Give to him from 
it, and there would not be a share for him in the Hereafter [42:20]

 

Muhammad Bin Yaqoub, from Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Salmat Bin Al Khataab, from Al Husayn 
Bin Abdul Rahman, from Ali Bin Abu Hamza, from Abu Baseer.

 

(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) (6th Imam) said,

‘I said, ‘(What about):Allah is 
Gentle with His servants. He Graces one He so Desires to [42:19]
?’ He (عليه السلام) said:
‘(The Grace) is Amir Al-Momineen (عليه السلام)'.

 

I said, ‘(What about): One Who wants the harvest of the Hereafter [42:20]?’ 
He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Recognition of Amir Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) and the Imams (عليه السلام)’. We will Increase in his harvest for him, he (عليه السلام) said: ‘We (عليه السلام) will Give him more from it’. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Fulfilling his share from their governance’.

 

and one who wants the harvest of the world, We would Give to him from it, and there would not be a share for him in the Hereafter [42:20], he (عليه السلام) said: ‘There would be no portion for them in the government of Al-Qaim (عليه السلام)(Imam Mahdi)’.

 

 

Similarly we Have to look at at tafseer(exegesis) of the versus you quoted.

 

Therefore, due to them breaking their Covenant, and their Kufr with the Signs
of Allah, and their killing the Prophets without right, and their saying: ‘Our 
hearts are locked’; But, Allah Sealed upon these due to their Kufr, so they will 
not be believing except for a little (time) [4:155]

 

Ibn Babuwayh, from Muhammad Bin Ahmad Al Sanany, from Muhammad Bin Abu Abdullah Al Kufy, 
from Sahl Bin Ziyad Al Admy, from Abdul Azeem Bin Abdullah Al Hasny, from Ibrahim Bin Abu 
Mahmoud,

 

 

(It has been narrated) from Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (عليه السلام), said, ‘I asked him about 
the Words of Allah(azwj)Mighty and Majestic Allah has Set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing [2:7]. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘The seal – it is the imprinting upon the hearts of the Kafirs due to their Kufr, just as Allah(azwj)Mighty and Majestic Says But,Allah Sealed upon these due to their Kufr, so they will not be believing except for a little (time) [4:155]’.

 

And Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: ‘These are the seals which become a sign for the Angels of Proximity to read from the Guarded Tablet the news about these falsifiers to the extent that they see their situation which is in their hearts and their sight and their hearing, and they bear witness to the sealing of theirhearts by Allah(azwj), and their 
understanding increases accordingly and they achieve conviction and they look at those whose hearts have been sealed and recognise those about whom they have read on the Guarded Tablet. And when they (Angels) witness what is in their hearts and their hearing and their sight, their knowledge about the unseen from Allah(azwj) the Almighty increases and they achieve conviction’.

 

(It has been narrated) from Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) in a Hadeeth in which heasws said: ‘Did they not ascribe to Maryam (عليه السلام)
daughter of Imran (عليه السلام) that she was expecting Isa (عليه السلام) from a 
man, a carpenter called Yusuf? (Joseph the Carpenter)’

 

Now the answer comes to you question

 

And their words, ‘We killed the Messiah, Isa son of Maryam, a Rasool of Allah’. 
And they did not kill him and did not crucify him, but he was resembled for 
them; and those who are differing regarding him are in doubt about it. There is no knowledge with it for them except the pursuance of conjecture; and they did not kill him for certain [4:157]

 

But! Allah Raised him to Him, and Allah was always Mighty, Wise [4:158]

 

It is so reported from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Jameel Bin Slaih, from Humran Bin Ayn,

 

From Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام)(5th Imam) having said: ‘Isa (عليه السلام) made an appointment with his companions on the night Allah(azwj( Raised him to Him(azwj). So they gathered to him, and they were twelve men. He made them enter into a house then came to them from a corner of the room, and his head was dripping from water. He said: ‘Allah(azwj) Revealed unto me and He(azwj) would be Raising me to him now, and there would be confusion from the Jews. So which of you would (like) to be cast my resemblance upon him, so he would be killed and crucified, and would happen to be with me in my Level?’

 

So a youth from them said, 'I' O Spirit of Allah(azwj)!’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Then you would be that’.

 

Then Isa (عليه السلام) said to them: ‘However, from you all there would be one who would deny meas before the morning with twelve denials’. A man from them said, ‘I am he, O Prophet of Allah(azwj)'. So Isa a.scsaid: ‘If you feel that within yourself, then you would happen to be him’.

 

Then Isa (عليه السلام) said to them: ‘As for you all, so you would be dividing after me upon three groups – two groups fabricating upon Allah(azwj) would be in the Fire, and a group following Shamoun, being truthful upon Allah(azwj), would be in the Paradise’.

 

Then Allah(azwj) Raised Isa (عليه السلام) to Him(azwj) from a corner of the room while they were looking at him.

 

Then Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام)(5th Imam) said: ‘The Jews came over seeking Isa (عليه السلام) during their night, and they seized the man for whom Isa (عليه السلام) had said, ‘From you all there would be one who would deny me before morning by twelve denials’, and they seized the youth upon whom the resemblance of Isa (عليه السلام) had been cast. So he was killed and crucified, and he denies, the one for whom Isa (عليه السلام) had said, ‘You would deny before the morning with twelve denials’’.

 

W.s

 By the way if you don't know, Prophet Isa is on the 4th Heaven and will descend when Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) reappears

Edited by randomly curious

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Trying to understand where someone is coming from to further clarification and end the matter quickly is probably the best avenue to go.

Regards,
Ahmed

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Guest SaladinNew
On 3/29/2020 at 10:40 AM, Eren said:

Hello,

I find it strange that so many Muslims teach and believe that Jesus was not crucified and didn't die. This view is completely antithetical to what the Qur'an teaches:

"Over the history of Islam, most Muslim commentators have come to deny that Jesus was ever crucified at all, with many holding that a substitute was crucified in his place1. But does this view accurately reflect the Qur’anic position? It is necessary to examine the full context of the above verse – a verse which is too often referred to only in isolation. The group of verses which immediately precede the verse in question discuss the misdeeds of the People of the Book (ahl al-kitab):

In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God. That they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, 'Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God’s Word; We need no more)';- Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;- That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the Son of Mary, the Messenger of God.';- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
- Holy Qur'an 4:155-157

The Qur’anic denial of the crucifixion must be understood in its proper context: the Qur’an is only denying that the People of the Book crucified Jesus – and this appears to be in response to their boasting to have done so. A neutral reader may easily conclude that the Qur’an intends to say that the death of Jesus was ultimately due to God’s will and not the desires of those who may have actually killed him. One then wonders: how did the view that Jesus was not crucified take root in the Islamic world?

Interestingly, the earliest textual evidence stating that Muslims deny the historical event of the crucifixion is not actually Muslim at all - it comes from the writings of the Christian Church Father, St. John of Damascus.2 He made the statement to his Christian flock in the eight century, asserting that the Qur’an denied Christ’s crucifixion for his own polemical purposes of refuting the early success of Islam."

For more information read this:

https://www.themathesontrust.org/papers/Islam/andani-crucifixion.pdf

You are trying to give it a metaphoric look, but Qur'an already speaks that bani Israel killed Prophets so it is not a metaphorical at all. Read:

[Shakir 5:70] Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them messengers; whenever there came to them an messenger with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew.

They didn't kill Prophet jesus (عليه السلام) that's truth. 

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What is your explanation for 'But it was so made to appear for them' part? 

Means they tried and failed. 

Next to it is the phrase 'Nay God raised him up onto himself' 

Crucification tried and failed and Jesus raised in heaven, You mean to say then he was crucified Nauzubillah in heaven after this? 

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I think there is a geo-political game being played here, from the link provided by the OP:

Quote

One of the schools of Islamic thought and philosophy which actually affirmed the historicity of the Crucifixion on a Qur’anic basis and, in fact, glorified it, is the tradition of Shi‘a Isma‘ili Islam.

I think this is just an attempt by Ismailis to ingratiate themselves with various politicians, theologians and opinion leaders in the West.

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To the OP according to the bible his diciples fleed the scene when he was "crucified" as a matter of fact this was a matter of debate in the first centuries as a lot of Christians doubted this word of mouth that Isa(عليه السلام) was crucified, as a matter of fact the only reason why people accept this is because the paulean Christians took power and they have reportedly slaughtered or forced converted every Christian that contradicted their beleif that was cannonised in the niecean creed 300 years after Isa(عليه السلام) as they were considered heretics

Also, it would contradict the fact that Isa(عليه السلام) was holy, the reason why Jews wanted him to be crucified was because "any one that hangs of a tree is cursed" they wanted to prove that Isa(عليه السلام) was cursed, obviously Allah(stw) said that they SLEW HIM NOT and that they made CONJECTURES , he was obviously saved from this humiliation, the crucifiction is based on forgiveness from punishing someone innocent, this is obviously not devine justice for us Muslims.

It also obviously says : It was made to appear to them that he was crucified

why do you think this clear verse was put here?  The verse is clear, the Jews wanted Isa(عليه السلام) crucified but they failed, the Jews said he was crucified, Allah(stw) said that it was made to APPEAR that he was crucified, it realy can’t get clearer then this, the word apear is here for a reason the word of them making conjecture is also here for a reason, Allah(stw) is clearly saying that the Jews are saying nonsence and that he wasn't crucified and to confirm this even more the word "NAY" is here to say "no what they say isnt true" , youre trying to phrase it as if someone else crucified him by saying "oh he said they",which there wasnt ,but it was ONLY the Jews who wanted him dead and obviously the Qur'an said that they were wrong, he was "RAISED UP" thats not death thats a litteral he took him up as in a miracle happened and he was saved the same way ABRAHAM(عليه السلام) was saved from the fire.

 

Also the huge majority of ismaili scholars in all oh Islamic history have said he wasnt cricified, in fact im only putting the huge majority because what you said is a first, even in a lot of discussions between Muslims and Christians ive never even heard this, because these verses are extreemly clear and this is comming from someone who saw a lot of christianity and Islam comparisons in the past.

 

 

Also one last important thing , you just rejected our hadiths to make a point, you have to realise we are Shia Muslims not quranists.

Edited by HusseinAbbas

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14 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l truely do not see what is so overwhelmingly impressive about lsa -(عليه السلام).for some people. He -(عليه السلام). couldn't creat and ant or flower.

Salam in Qur'an says that Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) was making something like bird that by his breath it was coming to life that some interpretations & Tafseers say it was Bat.

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25 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam in Qur'an says that Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) was making something like bird that by his breath it was coming to life that some interpretations & Tafseers say it was Bat.

You referenced Ayats 3:49 and 5:110. As described within these yats, there is no difference than with Ayat 2:102 because as is often revealed in Qur'an, the Command is with Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). in all things.

To further elaborate on my post you cited: when l look out my window l see weather, grass, birds, trees, rodenta, and so on. l also see Sun and Moon. l can remember Ayats 6:75ff. lnshallah. lt is in these where l see the Face of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). because the face of anything is in what is presented: continuous ayats. 

So l have no need or use for an idol in coloured glass.

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If all of the gospels gave account of the crucifixion, does it matter so much what the Qur'an would even say about it, given that the Qur'an came some >500 years or perhaps even 20+ generations later?  500 years is twice as old as the US. 

I guess it would depend on the preconceived beliefs of each religious faith.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16&version=NIV

When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20&version=NIV&interface=amp

 

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Edited by iCenozoic

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There are also several occasions in scripture in which Jesus predicts His death as well and attempts to inform his disciples that He will be killed and that he will rise from His grave. The following link describes versus from the book of Mathew but the same thing can be found in other gospels as well.

Just as there are versus in each of the gospels about his crucifixion, and Jesus appearing to the apostles, and Thomas touching Jesus' wounds, after the crucifixion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_predicts_his_death#Gospel_of_Matthew

The pre, current and post crucifixion details, described and affirmed throughout much of the new testament.

I suppose that, to deny the validity of the crucifixion, much of the new testament and gospels would also need to be denied (and even claims of scriptures historical accuracy). 

Which is fine I suppose. But if we are all just denying the other party's scripture, then the discussion becomes somewhat meaningless anyway.

Edited by iCenozoic

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41 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

If all of the gospels gave account of the crucifixion, does it matter so much what the Qur'an would even say about it

The Biblical account seems to be falsified. It goes against the Monotheistic message. #9

 

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28 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

The Biblical account seems to be falsified. It goes against the Monotheistic message. #9

 

I think that your response affirms my final statement in my last post.

It's almost meaningless to even have a discussion about the crucifixion based on religious texts. At least in the context of debate.

Edited by iCenozoic

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12 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

I think that your response affirms my final statement in my last post.

It's almost meaningless to even have a discussion about the crucifixion based on religious texts. At least in the context of debate.

I agree that in maybe a formal debate setting it's useless, but for a discussion, I think it can be enlightening. 

 

Honestly, going from the Bible, Qur'an, and sources outside of religious texts, I think the crucifixion is historically true.

I get too why most Muslims may think otherwise, but I think it has to do with getting into the text facts that aren't there. 

I think the link does a good job at highlighting many of the nuances I myself hold. 

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18 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

To the OP according to the bible his diciples fleed the scene when he was "crucified" as a matter of fact this was a matter of debate in the first centuries as a lot of Christians doubted this word of mouth that Isa(عليه السلام) was crucified, as a matter of fact the only reason why people accept this is because the paulean Christians took power and they have reportedly slaughtered or forced converted every Christian that contradicted their beleif that was cannonised in the niecean creed 300 years after Isa(عليه السلام) as they were considered heretics

Also one last important thing , you just rejected our hadiths to make a point, you have to realise we are Shia Muslims not quranists.

I read all of what you said, but I Don't think the Qur'an teaches what many Muslims think it does, I think they're mistaken and reading into the text something that isn't there. 

Again, I think the link I shared does a good job at highlighting many of the key points. The Jews thought they killed Christ and it appeared to them that way, but they didn't, they didn't have that power. It doesn't say he wasn't crucified and didn't die, it says they didn't do it. That's an important part.

To your final point, I'm a Shia Muslim, true but they doesn't mean all of our views have all been correct. I think the Ismaili view provided in the link is correct. Which to be clear, I didn't read it and just blindly accept it, rather I've reached similar conclusions on my own and researched my position and found it to be substantiated. 

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Thanks for your comments everyone, I promise read them all.

Here's another passage from the link to highlight my view:

 

"The Qur’anic view of the Crucifixion is not necessarily an outright denial of the event. But rather, as the Isma‘ili commentators show, the Qur’an is emphasizing a different aspect of the Crucifixion altogether. While Christians focus on the passion, suffering, and death of Jesus, the Qu’ran speaks from a more subtle and spiritual perspective when it proclaims that 'they killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but it only appeared so to them.'

As the Isma‘ili thinkers argue, it was only the human body or the nasut of Jesus that was killed and crucified upon the Cross while the eternal reality or lahut of Christ can never be killed or crucified. In other words, the historical Jesus may have died but the eternal Christ is ever-living. This view is extended by the Isma‘ilis to the person of the Imam: the ‘historical’ Imam lives and dies in the realm of nature (dunya), but the
‘eternal’ Imam is always present in the realm of Faith (din).

This is why, for example, the Isma‘ilis do not mourn the death of Imam Husayn who was brutally martyred at Karbala, because, like Christ before him, the Imam was ‘raised’ unto God and remains forever alive in the Divine presence. One also finds this perspective, espoused by Isma‘ili Islam, existing during the first centuries of Christianity."

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14 hours ago, Eren said:

This view is extended by the Isma‘ilis to the person of the Imam: the ‘historical’ Imam lives and dies in the realm of nature (dunya), but the
‘eternal’ Imam is always present in the realm of Faith (din).

This is why, for example, the Isma‘ilis do not mourn the death of Imam Husayn who was brutally martyred at Karbala, because, like Christ before him, the Imam was ‘raised’ unto God and remains forever alive in the Divine presence. One also finds this perspective, espoused by Isma‘ili Islam, existing during the first centuries of Christianity."

This is just for proving reincarnation between Ismailis because they say that soul of Ismail son of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) reincarnated in their Imams until now but it’s completely justification a wrong idea althought all Shia Imams like a chain connected to each other but they were 11 specific divine people not just one divine person that physical presence of Imam is continued by Imam Mahdi (aj) but he is not reincarnation of any Previous Imam.

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On 3/30/2020 at 7:36 AM, Eren said:

I respect your take. Yes, it's not as clear as people believe. It says THEY did not kill him or crucify him, not that he didn't die or wasn't crucified. It appeared to them that they killed him, but they ultimately didn't have that power.

I think the Isma'ili interpretation is the most correct I've read. 

And  they did not kill him and they did not crucify him but (whom they killed and crucified) was made looked similar (to Isa) for them. And indeed those differ in it in  are in the doubt from it. They have no knowledge except they follow the assumption.They did not kill him certainly. 4:157

Shubbiha (passive perfect verb) :  made to look similar, made to resemble.

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1 hour ago, elite said:

And  they did not kill him and they did not crucify him but (whom they killed and crucified) was made looked similar (to Isa) for them. And indeed those differ in it in  are in the doubt from it. They have no knowledge except they follow the assumption.They did not kill him certainly. 4:157

Shubbiha (passive perfect verb) :  made to look similar, made to resemble.

Nothing you've quoted goes against the point I'm making, it supports it.

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On 3/31/2020 at 4:44 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is just for proving reincarnation between Ismailis because they say that soul of Ismail son of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) reincarnated in their Imams until now but it’s completely justification a wrong idea althought all Shia Imams like a chain connected to each other but they were 11 specific divine people not just one divine person that physical presence of Imam is continued by Imam Mahdi (aj) but he is not reincarnation of any Previous Imam.

That is false. Isma'ilis do not teach reincarnation:

https://ask.ismailignosis.com/article/11-what-is-the-ismaili-Muslim-view-on-reincarnation

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On 3/30/2020 at 11:58 AM, Haji 2003 said:

I think there is a geo-political game being played here, from the link provided by the OP:

I think this is just an attempt by Ismailis to ingratiate themselves with various politicians, theologians and opinion leaders in the West.

This opinion though (I am trying to remember where I read it) among them came before the modern era though. The Ismailis now certainly have something of the sycophant about them however in the Middle Ages it was they who were the "Radical Muslims". The present Aga Khan's claim to be a legitimate Ismaili Iman are suspect- the founder of his line supposedly came out of hiding in the 19 th century. I know there are Sevener Shia in both India, Yemen and some other places who reject him. 

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17 minutes ago, Celtic Twilight said:

The present Aga Khan's claim to be a legitimate Ismaili Iman are suspect- the founder of his line supposedly came out of hiding in the 19 th century.

Yes, I wrote about this some years ago:

 

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22 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

Yes, I wrote about this some years ago:

 


Now that I think about it  Hasan Ali Shah Mahallati did make himself very useful to the British Empire in Afghanistan. 

Something weird about the current Aga Khan- he has banned his followers from wearing the hijab accept where not wearing one would cause hassle. His logic for this is the claim that originally slave women wore them and free women did not, but actually it was the reverse. 

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41 minutes ago, Celtic Twilight said:

Something weird about the current Aga Khan- he has banned his followers from wearing the hijab accept where not wearing one would cause hassle. His logic for this is the claim that originally slave women wore them and free women did not, but actually it was the reverse.

Honestly, he just makes it up as he goes along.

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22 hours ago, Eren said:

Nothing you've quoted goes against the point I'm making, it supports it.

Statement of Isa(عليه السلام) is recorded in the Qur'an.

and peace is on me the day I was born and the day I shall die (amutu) and the day I shall be raised alive.19:33

such is Isa son of Mariyam; the statement of truth concerning which they doubt. 19:34

still people doubts the statement of Isa (عليه السلام)  and try to prove that he was dead with the conjecture of “Nasut” and “Lahut”

where  Qur'an clearly states that  “Rather, Allah raised him to himself and Allah is Mighty,wise. “ 4:158

that means Isa(عليه السلام) is still alive.

Words in Qur'an      Mutawaffika 3:55 , Tawaffaytani 5:117 have the root of w-f-y which means to treat fully, to complete, to fulfill, to receive full

above word is used at the time of  death because it completes the term determined for a man

Now when Isa(عليه السلام) is alive we can not interpret the above word as  completion of determined term for (Isa)

But it can be interpreted as completion of  the prophethood of Isa(عليه السلام).

Indeed I  will complete your term (as a Prophet), and raise you to myself and purify you of those who disbelieve. 3:55

And I was witness of them as long as I was among them but when you completed my term (as a Prophet) you were watcher over them.

Our Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the last Prophet and  prophethood of Isa(عليه السلام) was terminated along with his ascension so his comeback

will be as a non-Prophet.

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