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Mohammad313Ali

Trinity Debate

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On 4/30/2020 at 8:29 AM, Nathan said:

I believe that God is one God but three distinct persons.

Hi Nathan, it's good to have you on this Forum, and I hope that we can benefit from each other in order to get closer to the truth.

I would like to focus on this one sentence of yours for the time being. How can one God who is one individual personality, or being, have three personalities. In humans we call this multiple personality disorder, or somebody in need of exorcism. Sorry, if this sounds disrespectful, I really don't mean to be. But the closest example of one being that has three personalities in the living world would be the three-headed dog of the underworld in Greek mythology.

Do you believe that God has multiple personalities? How is that possible? That to me would still make God three personalities, which means three gods. But that's just me, I know that almost all Christian follow the dogma of dividing god into different partners.

Also, don't you think that this contradicts the bible verses that are listed above on this thread? And could be a conspiracy by satan to turn a monotheistic religion into a polytheistic one, like the countless other religions we have that include a trinity? One such trinity is Horus, Osiris and Isis trinity. There is clear evidence of having churches implement pagan elements in the religion. Don't you think that this is a possibility?

Thanks

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23 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

I've never known or read who those Muslims were that memorized the Prophets words.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_memorized_the_Quran
 

plus

quran has built-in mathematical protection, unlike that corrupted bible that doesn’t have any method to verify the content!

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix1verify.html

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21 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_memorized_the_Quran
 

plus

quran has built-in mathematical protection, unlike that corrupted bible that doesn’t have any method to verify the content!

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix1verify.html

The list you had provided is a list of people, in a broad sense, whom are believed to have memorized the Quran, but of course the vast majority listed post-date the codification of the Quran. You or I could memorize the Quran as well, but listing our names wouldn't be a sufficient reply to the discussion.

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Thanks for these questions. It's probably a good idea to tackle this slowly as it is such a mysterious doctrine. I don't believe that God has multiple personalities. He is one in thought and deed. I think John chapters 14-17 are extremely useful to better understand the Trinity.

In John 14:8-11 says, "Philip said to him (Jesus), "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

Here Jesus tells his disciple that he has in fact seen the Father because He has seen Him in Christ. Colossians 1:15 says "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God." God the Father cannot be seen but God the Son can be.

In John 16:13 Jesus tells His disciples that "when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak." Again the Spirit doesn't speak on His own authority but He reveals what the Father says and does.

These things can make it sound like there is a hierarchy in the Trinity but again, they're just different roles. 

I would really encourage you to read John 14-17. It is so good and it requires much thought, meditation and prayer. :)

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Blessings everyone, a very interesting conversation. Let me start in the beginning,

Genesis 1: 1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 

The word wə·rū·aḥ literally means "and the Spirit" 

Not only do we have the Holy Spirit but Jesus as well. John 1: 1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

In the book of Genesis, how did God create all things? He spoke. The Word

Again, in Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

Who was there with Him in His likeness?

Michah 5:2 But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,Too little to be among the clans of Judah.  From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” The Hebrew word used is ō·w·lām, or from everlasting. He, the One, the Son,  has always been there.

And again. Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Now on to the divinity of Jesus before going back to the Trinity.

In Daniel 7:13-14

I kept looking in the night visions,
         And behold, with the clouds of heaven
         One like a Son of Man was coming,
         And He came up to the Ancient of Days
 
       And was presented before Him.

14“And to Him was given dominion,
         Glory and a kingdom,
         That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
         Might serve Him.
         His dominion is an everlasting dominion
         Which will not pass away;
         And His kingdom is one
         Which will not be destroyed.

Which Jesus referenced in Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

In Psalms 110 1-7

The LORD says to my Lord: (The LORD says to my Lord? YAHWEH says to la·ḏō·nî, David's master? Who is David's master, greater than him, that could do the following?)
         “Sit at My right hand
         Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
         “Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

3Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
         In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
         Your youth are to You as the dew.

4The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
         “You are a priest forever
         According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5The Lord is at Your right hand;
         He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.

6He will judge among the nations,
         He will fill them with corpses,
         He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.

7He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
         Therefore He will lift up His head.

And again Isaiah 9: 6-7

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
         And the government will rest on His shoulders;
         And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
         Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
         On the throne of David and over his kingdom, (Well there's David's master)
         To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
         From then on and forevermore.
         The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

In John we see Jesus saying, John 13:19-20. 19 From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He. 20“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”

John 8: 28-29 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29“And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.

So if Jesus is God why does he keep referring to the One that sent him? Because Jesus is not the Father. And Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the son. There is ONE God, who is three eternal, co-equal persons.

I am a human being. That is what I am. But I also have a name, that is who I am. A divine being is what God is. Three eternal, co-equal persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, is who God is. That is how He has chosen to reveal himself to us. 

When the Son, from "from the days of eternity,"  took the human form of Jesus of Nazareth. He humbled Himself and became a servant. It didn't mean He was any less divine. Only that He now existed in another realm, other than the Heavenly realm, our realm. If a king sees his subjects struggling and feels sympathy for them and leaves his castle to help them work the fields, does that make him less royal?

As Paul says in Philippians 2: 5-11. 5  Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (a lot of new translations, including this one, make this verse confusing, as if Jesus could not grasp equality with God. The Greek word used is harpagmon, which translated means to plunder or rob. The KJV has this verse as robbery. Or in other words, Jesus didn't think that, for Him, equality with the Father was a crime.) 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Or going back to John 1: 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Peace and love be with you brothers and sisters. Message me if you would like to talk further.

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On 5/1/2020 at 3:26 PM, 313 Seeker said:

Hi Nathan, it's good to have you on this Forum, and I hope that we can benefit from each other in order to get closer to the truth.

I would like to focus on this one sentence of yours for the time being. How can one God who is one individual personality, or being, have three personalities. In humans we call this multiple personality disorder, or somebody in need of exorcism. Sorry, if this sounds disrespectful, I really don't mean to be. But the closest example of one being that has three personalities in the living world would be the three-headed dog of the underworld in Greek mythology.

Do you believe that God has multiple personalities? How is that possible? That to me would still make God three personalities, which means three gods. But that's just me, I know that almost all Christian follow the dogma of dividing god into different partners.

Also, don't you think that this contradicts the bible verses that are listed above on this thread? And could be a conspiracy by satan to turn a monotheistic religion into a polytheistic one, like the countless other religions we have that include a trinity? One such trinity is Horus, Osiris and Isis trinity. There is clear evidence of having churches implement pagan elements in the religion. Don't you think that this is a possibility?

Thanks

What did you think of this post? Also, do you have any other questions on the Trinity? It's such a vast topic, I don't want to talk about something when you really would like to discuss a different aspect.

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On 5/5/2020 at 8:41 AM, Nathan said:

Thanks for these questions. It's probably a good idea to tackle this slowly as it is such a mysterious doctrine. I don't believe that God has multiple personalities. He is one in thought and deed. I think John chapters 14-17 are extremely useful to better understand the Trinity.

In John 14:8-11 says, "Philip said to him (Jesus), "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

Here Jesus tells his disciple that he has in fact seen the Father because He has seen Him in Christ. Colossians 1:15 says "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God." God the Father cannot be seen but God the Son can be.

In John 16:13 Jesus tells His disciples that "when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak." Again the Spirit doesn't speak on His own authority but He reveals what the Father says and does.

These things can make it sound like there is a hierarchy in the Trinity but again, they're just different roles. 

I would really encourage you to read John 14-17. It is so good and it requires much thought, meditation and prayer. :)

Thank you Nathan. I think that you can understand what my views are. Did you read the arguments that I had earlier in this thread that talk about clear verses in the Bible stating that Jesus is not God, and that he was a messenger?

 

All the best! :)

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On 6/1/2020 at 5:33 PM, Allah Seeker said:

Thank you Nathan. I think that you can understand what my views are. Did you read the arguments that I had earlier in this thread that talk about clear verses in the Bible stating that Jesus is not God, and that he was a messenger?

All the best! :)

Greetings Allah Seeker! I appreciate your kind and respective manner! I will try to address your arguments in this post. It will likely be LONG but bear with me. :)

So to begin with, you talked about Jesus being refered to as a prophet in Matthew 21. A prophet is a person who speaks for God. So there shouldn't be a problem with Jesus being God and a prophet because Jesus simply said what God told Him to. In John 14:10, Jesus says "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do no speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works." And again in John 14:24 says "And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me." So I believe that the Bible is clear that Jesus is a prophet, yes, but that He is also the Son of God. You might say that if Jesus doesn't speak on His own authority, then how can He be God? Just because Jesus didn't speak on His own authority, doesn't mean that He couldn't speak on His own authority. He is humble and meek. Jesus says in John 10:17-18, "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." 

You then argued that there is not one time in the Bible that it says that God is 3. I 100% agree with you! I don't believe that God is 3, God is absolutely one! This is clear from the very beginning and it is clear to the end of Scripture. But God is 3 persons. These 3 persons have the same mind, the same essence, the same character but they are distinct. John 1:1-2 says "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." And again in John 17:5, Jesus prays to His Father and says, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." First of all, how could God ever glorify a man? Isaigh 48:11 says, "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. For the Father to glorify Jesus would mean that He was glorifying another member of the Trinity. And also, before the world existed, there was only God. So how could Jesus have been with the Father before the world existed unless He is God? One God in three persons dwelling in perfect fellowship completely self-sufficient not needing anything. The Holy Spirit also is a member of the Trinity. The Spirit is not some power or force though He can be powerful and forceful. In his book, "Delighting in the Trinity", Michael Reeves says, "It is by the Spirit that the Father has eternally loved His Son. And so, by sharing their spirit with us, the Father and the Son share with us their own life, love and fellowship. By the Spirit uniting me to Christ, the Father knows and loves me as His son; by the Spirit I begin to know and love Him as my Father. Byt the Spirit I begin to love aright-unbending me from my self-love, he wins me to share the Father's pleasure in the Son and the Son's in the Father. By the Spirit I (slowly!) begin to love as God loves, with His own generous, overflowing, self-giving love for others." 

You mention that Jesus prays to His God. Praying is simply talking with God. It is conversing with a person. The more we talk to God and are informed about who He is by reading the Bible, the more we become like Him and love Him. Jesus, being God, still is in fellowship with God the Father and therefore must talk with Him. Who else would Jesus pray to?

You bring up the quote  “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."  You said "How can he be God, when he clearly talks about God in third person?" I think when Jesus asked the man why he thought Jesus was good, it was more of a question of "do you believe that I am God?" Jesus always pursues the heart. The man who was asking Jesus about what he must do to inherit eternal life, was a rich man. Jesus was trying to help the man see that if Jesus truly is God, then it would be worth pursuing Him with his whole life even if he did have to lose all of his wealth.

You asked about how Jesus could be God's chosen? Again, this is a matter of better understanding what I mean when I say Trinity. God is one. But His is one in three persons. So God the Father did choose to send His Son to pay our penalty on the cross. Isaiah 42:1-4 says, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street; a bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law."

Finally, you posed this question: "QUOTE: Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided. John 90:16 Notice how they say "from God". They expected a human King or Messiah who is not God, and we can ask Jews today about this. Or we can consult the old Testament as well. We all know that Solomon and David were also referred to as Messiahs of their time. So even the awaited Messiah was not expected to be beyond that human role. So this proves that Jesus' claim was not beyond those bounds, according to this verse."

Here's my answer for this one. The Jews simply expected something different than what actually happened. This happens to all of us! Someone can read and study something for years and feel that they understand something but then when actually faced with what it's really like, they realize that their imagination and expectations were way different that reality! 1 Corinthians 2:7-9 says, "But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God."

I'll conclude here. I hope these responses are helpful! Thanks for your questions and again for your kindness. :) 

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