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In the Name of God بسم الله

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I am debating a guy who says he is Jewish, but believes in the trinity. Nonetheless let’s consider him Christian, his proposed argument is this:

Jesus accepted worship where angels refused it. Jesus rebuked disciples for thinking of him as equal to Moses. Jesus also said that he had authority to forgive sins, even when only God can. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, YHWH (I Am)."

Pharisees tried to stone him several times for claiming to be God, and Jesus never contradicted them.

'But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God' (1 Corinthians 2:9-11).

So we see that God's Spirit searches his mind. And God can also send his spirit to others.

God's spirit can also be grieved, and he has a will.

"For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills" (1 Corinthians 12:8-11).

Could you brothers/sisters kindly help me in :3

@SoRoUsH @313 Seeker @Son of Placid

What would be an adequate response to this.

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3 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

I am debating a guy who says he is Jewish, but believes in the trinity. Nonetheless let’s consider him Christian, his proposed argument is this:

Jesus accepted worship where angels refused it. Jesus rebuked disciples for thinking of him as equal to Moses. Jesus also said that he had authority to forgive sins, even when only God can. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, YHWH (I Am)."

Pharisees tried to stone him several times for claiming to be God, and Jesus never contradicted them.

'But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God' (1 Corinthians 2:9-11).

So we see that God's Spirit searches his mind. And God can also send his spirit to others.

God's spirit can also be grieved, and he has a will.

"For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills" (1 Corinthians 12:8-11).

Could you brothers/sisters kindly help me in :3

@SoRoUsH @313 Seeker @Son of Placid

What would be an adequate response to this.

Salaam,

I don't see how the above claims touch on the idea of Trinity. And what is the reference for showing that Jesus didn't argue against being God?

Him worshipping when an angel didn't, I don't see relevance here. Also the whole spirit of God talk either. And then isn't the yhwh the name that was revealed to Moses on the mount when he asked God for His name? So God answered "I am", basically answering the question while not answering it?

Thanks

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On 3/26/2020 at 3:11 AM, 313 Seeker said:

Salaam,

I don't see how the above claims touch on the idea of Trinity. And what is the reference for showing that Jesus didn't argue against being God?

Him worshipping when an angel didn't, I don't see relevance here. Also the whole spirit of God talk either. And then isn't the yhwh the name that was revealed to Moses on the mount when he asked God for His name? So God answered "I am", basically answering the question while not answering it?

Thanks

Hi there! :) I'd just like to say something regarding your thoughts on the question above, hoping that you can see more clarity in the original argument.

Regarding the angels refusing worship, I believe our Jewish/Christian friend is referring to Revelation 22:8-9 where, after John falls at the feet of an angel, the angel says, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the Prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God." Though, there are several references in the Bible to Jesus being worshiped without any rebuke from the Word or from Jesus himself.

  • In Matthew 2:11, right after Jesus was born, wise men came into the house that Jesus was in and: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him." Nowhere in the text does it ever say that the wise men were wrong for doing this. We also have to ask the question: Why did the wise men even want to worship Jesus? What did they know about Jesus that urged them to want to worship Him?
  • In Matthew 14, Jesus' disciples are in a boat that by this time was "a long way from the land, beaten by the waves, for the wind was against them." (v 24) Jesus then, comes to them by walking on the sea. When they see Him, Peter (His disciple), begins to walk out to Him, however, when he begins to sink because of his lack of faith, Jesus reaches out His hand and saves him. After this, "those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." (v 33) The disciples themselves worshiped Jesus and called Him the Son of God, and Jesus does not rebuke them.
  • Another instance is in Matthew 28, right after Jesus' resurrection. A couple of women (Mary Magdalene and the other Mary) were running from the tomb to go tell the other followers of Jesus that He had risen from the dead. Jesus, however, met them on the way. The text says, "And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him." (v 9) So the women fall on their knees to worship the risen Lord, and what does He say to them in response? "Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”" (v 10) Once again, there is no evidence of Jesus telling them to stop worshiping Him.
  • In John 20, at the moment that Thomas, Jesus' disciple, realized that He was looking at Jesus, who had risen from the dead, Thomas exclaims, "My Lord and my God!" (v 28) Directly after this, Jesus says, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (v 29) Thomas clearly seems to believe that Jesus is God, and Jesus doesn't seem to be in any sort of a rush to rebuke Thomas, either. In fact, He seems to indicate that when Thomas says this, he "believed".

These references are very relevant to the topic of the Trinity. If Jesus were merely a Prophet, it would be His duty to make sure that all worship would be directed to God. But He doesn't seem to be doing that here. What do you think about these references?

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Hi dear Christian friend,

Thanks for your post and I hope you read this response,

On 4/4/2020 at 5:27 PM, brian214 said:

And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him."

do you know the original word used in the source code? Let us analyze what word was translated into "worhip", maybe it has another real meaning. Even the Qur'an that has little to no different versions has many very inaccurate translations.

On 4/4/2020 at 5:27 PM, brian214 said:

"those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

could it be that those words were 

1) mistranslated

2) injected by later scholars who want to push the Jesus-being-son-of-God agenda?

What about these references:

Quote

Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. Mark 1:35

How can Jesus be God if he prays to God himself?

In the following quote Jesus doesn't seem to refuse people referring to him as a Prophet:

Quote

10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”

11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the Prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.” Matthew 21

Jesus further refers to himself as a Prophet here ..

Quote

4 Jesus said to them, “A Prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith. Mark 6

In John 27:17 Jesus refers to his God as our God. How can one third of a trinity of One God be God of one of the three? How can we treat Jesus as God, when he himself refers to himself.

In 1 Timothy 2 we have another interesting quote

Quote

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 

This sounds like God is one according to the gospels and that Jesus is a mediator, which is kind of like the job of a messenger. Wouldn't you say?

I would also like the point out that according to countless quotes from the Old Testament, the talk is always about "One" God, and never once is there talk about a duality or trinity of godhood.

But here from the Gospel once again:

Quote

since there is only one God, Romans 3:30

yet for us there is but one God Corinthians 8:6

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. James 2:19

I don't believe there is a single quote that says God is 3 , or?

Thanks

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On 4/4/2020 at 6:27 PM, brian214 said:

Hi there! :) I'd just like to say something regarding your thoughts on the question above, hoping that you can see more clarity in the original argument.

Regarding the angels refusing worship, I believe our Jewish/Christian friend is referring to Revelation 22:8-9 where, after John falls at the feet of an angel, the angel says, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the Prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God." Though, there are several references in the Bible to Jesus being worshiped without any rebuke from the Word or from Jesus himself.

  • In Matthew 2:11, right after Jesus was born, wise men came into the house that Jesus was in and: "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him." Nowhere in the text does it ever say that the wise men were wrong for doing this. We also have to ask the question: Why did the wise men even want to worship Jesus? What did they know about Jesus that urged them to want to worship Him?
  • In Matthew 14, Jesus' disciples are in a boat that by this time was "a long way from the land, beaten by the waves, for the wind was against them." (v 24) Jesus then, comes to them by walking on the sea. When they see Him, Peter (His disciple), begins to walk out to Him, however, when he begins to sink because of his lack of faith, Jesus reaches out His hand and saves him. After this, "those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." (v 33) The disciples themselves worshiped Jesus and called Him the Son of God, and Jesus does not rebuke them.
  • Another instance is in Matthew 28, right after Jesus' resurrection. A couple of women (Mary Magdalene and the other Mary) were running from the tomb to go tell the other followers of Jesus that He had risen from the dead. Jesus, however, met them on the way. The text says, "And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him." (v 9) So the women fall on their knees to worship the risen Lord, and what does He say to them in response? "Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”" (v 10) Once again, there is no evidence of Jesus telling them to stop worshiping Him.
  • In John 20, at the moment that Thomas, Jesus' disciple, realized that He was looking at Jesus, who had risen from the dead, Thomas exclaims, "My Lord and my God!" (v 28) Directly after this, Jesus says, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (v 29) Thomas clearly seems to believe that Jesus is God, and Jesus doesn't seem to be in any sort of a rush to rebuke Thomas, either. In fact, He seems to indicate that when Thomas says this, he "believed".

These references are very relevant to the topic of the Trinity. If Jesus were merely a Prophet, it would be His duty to make sure that all worship would be directed to God. But He doesn't seem to be doing that here. What do you think about these references?

Well the thing is, Muslims tend not to believe in words of the Bible. They typically reject these types of events as innaccuracies or errors in the message. 

We had a conversation about the crucifixion the other day, and while there are countless references in scripture to the crucifixion, including Jesus asking Thomas to touch Jesus' wounds, Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified either.

They appear to reject the New Testament nearly in whole.

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On 4/9/2020 at 7:24 AM, 313 Seeker said:

Hi dear Christian friend,

Thanks for your post and I hope you read this response,

could it be that those words were 

1) mistranslated

2) injected by later scholars who want to push the Jesus-being-son-of-God agenda?

Really, if you read through the new testament, in large part, there are consistent references to Jesus being more or greater than other Prophets. It is a consistent theme throughout the New Testament. 

The NT regularly notes that Jesus has the power to forgive sins, and has the power to bring about salvation where all other Prophets could not. And it's not a single typo, it's just the theme of the gospels.

And throughout Jesus' journey, he teaches his apostles who He is, and teaches lay-people who He is. And He is routinely identified as more than man and more than historic Prophets. He is The Savior. 

And the only way to really get around this, is to outright reject the Bible. 

Also, Jewish people do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, let alone that Jesus were part of the trinity. If the person saw Jesus as a savior, then they would simply be a believer in Jesus and thus would simply be Christian.

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On 4/9/2020 at 8:25 AM, iCenozoic said:

Really, if you read through the new testament, in large part, there are consistent references to Jesus being more or greater than other Prophets. It is a consistent theme throughout the New Testament. 

The NT regularly notes that Jesus has the power to forgive sins, and has the power to bring about salvation where all other Prophets could not. And it's not a single typo, it's just the theme of the gospels.

And throughout Jesus' journey, he teaches his apostles who He is, and teaches lay-people who He is. And He is routinely identified as more than man and more than historic Prophets. He is The Savior. 

And the only way to really get around this, is to outright reject the Bible. 

Also, Jewish people do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, let alone that Jesus were part of the trinity. If the person saw Jesus as a savior, then they would simply be a believer in Jesus and thus would simply be Christian.

1) How do you explain the parts that clearly say that Jesus is a Prophet, that he was sent, and that he prays to his God, who is our God?

2) Why does Jesus say QUOTE:  “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."  How can he be God, when he clearly talks about God in third person? 

3) In Mark12 Jesus is quoted as saying The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

You see, even Jesus refers to God as his God again ..

4) In Luke people challenge the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of God. This means that Jesus is separate from God logically speaking: The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.” Notice that they refer to him as "Chosen", so God obviously won't chose himself or?

5) So in John 5 Jesus is quoted as referring to the "One God", while he refers to himself as having been sent in the name of that God. This in no way sounds like he is insinuating that he is God who has sent himself. And a God Who is "One" does not have one or two divisions of himself to send around. Otherwise He would not be referred to by his own Prophet (as is his title in the bible as shown in the above post), as "One"

QUOTE:  How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God.

Furthermore, in the same John 5, Jesus talks about Moses predicting the coming of Christ. Where in the OT does Moses talk about a "son", a "trinity" or a man-God who will be sent by himself as part of a trio? All of documented Moses speeches are purely talking about one single God, with Prophets to come. 

QUOTE: If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

This verse can actually be used against people who contradict the unity of God that is professed by Moses in clearly documented verses of the Torah.

QUOTE:  since there is only one God, Romans 3

There is no God but one. Corinthians 8:4

It is clear that the God-being-One narrative dominates, and is in tune with the Old Testament.

...

So there are other arguments that can be said:

1) God is only referred to as One, and not once as "Three". 

2) We know for fact that the Bible we have today has many versions and has been edited by people who are far from holy. So we can take for granted there are corruptions in it.

3) Christian mainstream thought claims that only those who believe in "son of God", and that he "died for our sins on the cross" are right. How about all the Prophets who came before Jesus who never once said or witnessed anything like that. If this was truly the case, don't you think that all the previous Prophets would have professed these ideas? Therefore, we must be taking into consideration that these ideas are most likely injected, as they contradict the narrative of Jesus about himself as well as the narrative of all Prophets from Adam to all the Prophets descended of Israel.

4) Let us say that hypothetically Jesus died, which me as a Muslim doesn't believe. How can God die? It is an oxymoron, because God is the Living one. The Eternal One. God does not die. 

QUOTE: That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,

So while Jesus died, he wasn't God anymore, until he was raised? It doesn't make sense, even if it was true that Jesus wasn't raised while alive and didn't taste death until he comes back to Earth soon I hope.

5) If God is "Three", then He can't be "One". Does this equation make sense:

1 ≠ 3

these equations make sense

1 = 1

3 = 3

Hence One isn't Three. 

5) The Jews of the time definitely didn't believe in God being three, nor that Jesus is the son of God. Nowadays Jews usually say they don't believe in the Messiah because of those two concepts. But if you look at what actually happened, the pharisees rejected him because he performed miracles on a Sabbath:

QUOTE: Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided. John 90:16

Notice how they say "from God". They expected a human King or Messiah who is not God, and we can ask Jews today about this. Or we can consult the old Testament as well. We all know that Solomon and David were also referred to as Messiahs of their time. So even the awaited Messiah was not expected to be beyond that human role. So this proves that Jesus' claim was not beyond those bounds, according to this verse.

Thank you

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On 4/9/2020 at 3:34 PM, 313 Seeker said:

1) How do you explain the parts that clearly say that Jesus is a Prophet, that he was sent, and that he prays to his God, who is our God?

2) Why does Jesus say QUOTE:  “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."  How can he be God, when he clearly talks about God in third person? 

3) In Mark12 Jesus is quoted as saying The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

You see, even Jesus refers to God as his God again ..

4) In Luke people challenge the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of God. This means that Jesus is separate from God logically speaking: The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.” Notice that they refer to him as "Chosen", so God obviously won't chose himself or?

5) So in John 5 Jesus is quoted as referring to the "One God", while he refers to himself as having been sent in the name of that God. This in no way sounds like he is insinuating that he is God who has sent himself. And a God Who is "One" does not have one or two divisions of himself to send around. Otherwise He would not be referred to by his own Prophet (as is his title in the bible as shown in the above post), as "One"

QUOTE:  How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God.

Furthermore, in the same John 5, Jesus talks about Moses predicting the coming of Christ. Where in the OT does Moses talk about a "son", a "trinity" or a man-God who will be sent by himself as part of a trio? All of documented Moses speeches are purely talking about one single God, with Prophets to come. 

QUOTE: If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

This verse can actually be used against people who contradict the unity of God that is professed by Moses in clearly documented verses of the Torah.

QUOTE:  since there is only one God, Romans 3

There is no God but one. Corinthians 8:4

It is clear that the God-being-One narrative dominates, and is in tune with the Old Testament.

...

So there are other arguments that can be said:

1) God is only referred to as One, and not once as "Three". 

2) We know for fact that the Bible we have today has many versions and has been edited by people who are far from holy. So we can take for granted there are corruptions in it.

3) Christian mainstream thought claims that only those who believe in "son of God", and that he "died for our sins on the cross" are right. How about all the Prophets who came before Jesus who never once said or witnessed anything like that. If this was truly the case, don't you think that all the previous Prophets would have professed these ideas? Therefore, we must be taking into consideration that these ideas are most likely injected, as they contradict the narrative of Jesus about himself as well as the narrative of all Prophets from Adam to all the Prophets descended of Israel.

4) Let us say that hypothetically Jesus died, which me as a Muslim doesn't believe. How can God die? It is an oxymoron, because God is the Living one. The Eternal One. God does not die. 

QUOTE: That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,

So while Jesus died, he wasn't God anymore, until he was raised? It doesn't make sense, even if it was true that Jesus wasn't raised while alive and didn't taste death until he comes back to Earth soon I hope.

5) If God is "Three", then He can't be "One". Does this equation make sense:

1 ≠ 3

these equations make sense

1 = 1

3 = 3

Hence One isn't Three. 

5) The Jews of the time definitely didn't believe in God being three, nor that Jesus is the son of God. Nowadays Jews usually say they don't believe in the Messiah because of those two concepts. But if you look at what actually happened, the pharisees rejected him because he performed miracles on a Sabbath:

QUOTE: Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided. John 90:16

Notice how they say "from God". They expected a human King or Messiah who is not God, and we can ask Jews today about this. Or we can consult the old Testament as well. We all know that Solomon and David were also referred to as Messiahs of their time. So even the awaited Messiah was not expected to be beyond that human role. So this proves that Jesus' claim was not beyond those bounds, according to this verse.

Thank you

It sounds like you've already made up your mind and simply reject what is said in the Bible. 

You haven't said anything which contradicts my previous post.

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Here is another passage from the book of mark:

Jesus Forgives Sins

Several days later Jesus came back to Capernaum. The report went out that he was home. Many people had gathered. There was no room left, even in front of the door. Jesus was speaking God’s word to them.

Four men came to him carrying a paralyzed man. Since they could not bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof over the place where Jesus was. Then they lowered the cot on which the paralyzed man was lying.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Some experts in Moses’ Teachings were sitting there. They thought, “Why does he talk this way? He’s dishonoring God. Who besides God can forgive sins?”

At once, Jesus knew inwardly what they were thinking. He asked them, “Why do you have these thoughts? Is it easier to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, pick up your cot, and walk’? 10 I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins.” Then he said to the paralyzed man, 11 “I’m telling you to get up, pick up your cot, and go home!”

12 The man got up, immediately picked up his cot, and walked away while everyone watched. Everyone was amazed and praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus is God (or at least not the Father), but as I've said before, it is a recurring theme that Jesus saves and that Jesus is capable of more than prior Prophets in light of this.

and personally, I would not call myself a trinitarian, but every Christian recognizes this as a key aspect of Christianity. 

This Trinity and belief in Jesus, stems from His ability to save, His sacrifice for us, and His teachings, moreso than a logical argument about His connection with the Father. 

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1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

It sounds like you've already made up your mind and simply reject what is said in the Bible. 

You haven't said anything which contradicts my previous post.

Yes I admit that I didn't answer your points directly, because your points did not directly discuss the topic at hand. I just used your post as a spring board to further prove the main point, which is talking about trinity vs unity. 

You said that Jesus is referred to as better than other Prophets, which still means that he is a Prophet of God. Prophet is messenger. He carries a message of someone he himself refers to as his God. He nowhere claims that he is sending a message from himself. 

Furthermore,

I will not go into details of authenticity of the claim of Jesus forgiving or not, because all of us can forgive in theory. I can forgive you, and you can forgive me. Additionally, this could be interpreted as Jesus having information from his God that this man got forgiven. Basically via spiritual inspiration he felt/heard/saw that this man is forgiven by God, and that this is what's meant by "he has authority to forgive

58 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Jesus was speaking God’s word to them.

This part shows that Jesus speaks the word of God, and is not God. Even in Islam and the Qur'an Jesus has the title of "Word of God". So one of his super powers that probably few if any Prophets ever had, was that he has this title. So his speech is unique in a sense, that it is truly the word of his God. A word is still a creation. The word was created between the lips of God. God is not a word.

I think we can agree on that

1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

Jesus saves and that Jesus is capable of more than prior Prophets in light of this.

There were Prophets in the bible who could do similar feats as Jesus, including bringing dead back to life (like Elisha). At the same time there were Prophets like Moses who could do things on a scale that Jesus didn't. 

I think it is more than clear from the bible that Jesus is a creature of God, inspired, empowered and guided by a God who sent him. The evidence is there, and the prediction of previous Prophets is in line with this thought.

Anyway, I wish you all the best in your journey and hope that God forgives us all for our shortcomings, as long as our intentions are good as truth seekers and people willing to live on the path of the true Jesus, whoever he may be.

Thank you

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"I can forgive you, and you can forgive me. Additionally, this could be interpreted as Jesus having information from his God that this man got forgiven. Basically via spiritual inspiration he felt/heard/saw that this man is forgiven by God, and that this is what's meant by "he has authority to forgive"

This doesn't make sense. 

lets read it again:

I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins.

"There were Prophets in the bible who could do similar feats as Jesus, "

I disagree. This statement is contradicted by the gospels. 

You can say that you simply do not believe what the gospels say, and that's fine. But you should at least understand that Jesus, in the Bible, is greater than all Prophets before Him in His sacrifice, in His ability to save, in His bringing of the final testament etc.

This is why the cruifixion is important in the NT. You don't have to believe it, but you could at least acknowledge what is being said.

Edited by iCenozoic

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On 4/9/2020 at 5:36 PM, iCenozoic said:

I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins.

have you ever forgiven a sin? Like did anybody ever do anything wrong to you, and you forgave them? Yes! This sentence doesn't mention "forgive on behalf of God" for instance. Get what I mean?

On 4/9/2020 at 5:36 PM, iCenozoic said:

I disagree. This statement is contradicted by the gospels. 

which feat exactly do you refer to, and what is the relevance to proving the trinity?

On 4/9/2020 at 5:36 PM, iCenozoic said:

You can say that you simply do not believe what the gospels say, and that's fine. But you should at least understand that Jesus, in the Bible, is greater than all Prophets before Him in His sacrifice, in His ability to save, in His bringing of the final testament etc.

I believe in all the verses of the Gospel that I listed above. You and I know that the gospel you study is a tampered and edited version of the original. It is enough already with what happened at the meeting and Nicea. Even the choice of what books are accepted gospels and which ones aren't is a controversial issue. So I believe that ignoring this fact and taking all the English translation of an edited book as final isn't really logical, is it?

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10 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

This doesn't make sense. 

what I am saying is that we must take what is left of the original gospel with a grain of salt. There is no denying that the texts you are reading are edited by often unknown people, who could have done so for non-godly reasons.

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"have you ever forgiven a sin? Like did anybody ever do anything wrong to you, and you forgave them?"

ive never announced that I have authority on Earth to do it as people doubt that I can. Why would they say "Who besides God can forgive sins?" If they were just talking about regular forgiveness?

read again:

Why does he talk this way? He’s dishonoring God. Who besides God can forgive sins?”

At once, Jesus knew inwardly what they were thinking. He asked them, “Why do you have these thoughts? Is it easier to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, pick up your cot, and walk’? 10 I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins.” Then he said to the paralyzed man, 11 “I’m telling you to get up, pick up your cot, and go home!”

12 The man got up, immediately picked up his cot, and walked away while everyone watched. Everyone was amazed and praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

Edited by Hameedeh
Removed large empty space. Please do not hit the space bar before you save your reply.

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"believe in all the verses of the Gospel that I listed above. You and I know that the gospel you study is a tampered and edited version of the original."

like I said before, you don't have to believe in the gospels, but they say what they say.

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14 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

 I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins.” 

OK I get your point, but I don't see this as a super killer argument, as it is vague and there is no clear reference to God, nor trinity, nor the forgiveness of God. Just by secondary reaction of the people one can in theory deduce it to support your idea. But what I posted are primary, direct and clear proofs that I see as stronger, in case I die and have to explain myself to God. I like to stick as much as possible to clear verses that do not contradict the basic line of truth evident in the NT and OT Prophet narrations.

13 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

like I said before, you don't have to believe in the gospels, but they say what they say.

I actually am ordered by God in the Qur'an to believe in the gospels. But the real original ones. Even the translations of the Qur'an are full of obvious mistakes. So believing in translations of the Qur'an does not necessarily mean believing in the Qur'an. Get my point?

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9 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

OK I get your point, but I don't see this as a super killer argument, as it is vague and there is no clear reference to God, nor trinity, nor the forgiveness of God. 

I'm not a trinitarian, but there are a few key points here to consider:

As you now recognize, Jesus had and still has, the power to save. There are many examples of this throughout the gospels, and as you have read above, even statements suggesting that this ability is held by God the Father, alone (and not by any other Prophet).

"He’s dishonoring God. Who besides God can forgive sins?”

Another item worth recognition:

John 10:27-30

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father, yet simultaneously recognizes a divine connection linked to His ability to save.

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

this verse is repeated and is a common theme throughout the gospels as well. Christ died for our sins. He died on the cross, took on our sins so that we may be saved from death.

Here is another common theme:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Access-To-God,-Through-Christ

None enter heaven but through Christ and belief in His ransom for many (His crucifixion).

So to summarize the themes:

1. Jesus saves (an ability that none other than Himself has). "Who besides God can forgive sins?"I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins"

2. Jesus regularly speaks of a divine connection with the Father. "I and the Father are one".

3. Jesus came to save us (He came to die on the cross to save us, you and me). "to give his life as a ransom for many" And;

4. Nobody enters heaven but through belief in Jesus and His sacrifice/ransom/gift to you and me, the gift of salvation.

Most Christians do not believe in the Trinity out of some logical argument for how 3=1. Most simply recognize that Jesus has divine attributes that none other than Himself has (and therefore has a divine relationship with the Father beyond regular humanity), that He saves and carries us to heaven out of love, and that for salvation we must believe in Him, His sacrifice (the ransom) and His teachings (Love God and Love others). Most otherwise do not understand the divine relationship that Jesus has with the Father and holy spirit (it is mysterious in nature), and simply refer to this relationship as the Trinity.

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6 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

simply refer to this relationship as the Trinity.

it's a bit confusing for me to understand, but I think we can all agree there is no direct reference of a trinity in any version of the gospels. And we have several instances where Jesus makes it clear that he is not the God Who sent him. At the same time there are recurring statements as you pointed out, that contradict this. Personally, I see this as a diversion where people get confused as to where to send their spiritual attention. The attention now gets split between the God and the Prophet. To add to this confusion, there is also an idea of a separate third of this one, which is the holy spirit. The power of a laser is in its focus. The concept of trinity, and diluting our worship to more than one, is a conspiracy I think. After spending years on this forum, you probably know more about Islam than most Muslims, so there is probably little I can say to teach you anything new, but I am glad to see you discuss in the religious topics, other than atheism or darwinism. It seems that you are a Christian, which is very good compared to being atheist. Thanks

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On 4/9/2020 at 5:24 AM, 313 Seeker said:
On 4/4/2020 at 3:27 PM, brian214 said:

those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

could it be that those words were 

1) mistranslated

2) injected by later scholars who want to push the Jesus-being-son-of-God agenda

Both are entirely possible. I don't believe that the bible is the "LITERAL WORD OF GOD" & this has gotten me disfellowshiped in a number of churches in my region (I'm wearing out my welcome with churches & may soon have nowhere to worship, fellowship, & seek comfort)

1. My idea was that Jesus probably wasn't praying, but meditating/collecting himself or whatever. "Pray" would be the term that they would use as more people would understand that concept than they would meditation, although both are essentially the same when you get down to the brass tacks.


2. One of the biggest problems with the bible, particularly in my country, is that bible translations are produced for the cynical purposes of promoting the agendas & dogmas of denominational leadership ("elders" aka older lay people who have no ministerial training but believe that their personal beliefs should be propagated). Oh yeah, and because if you own the copyright to a bible translation, your church doesn't have to pay a licensing fee to quote more than 50 verses for a sermon series/books/etc.

...which has made me recognize why "bidah"(sp?) is a thing in Islam.

 

On 4/9/2020 at 5:24 AM, 313 Seeker said:

How can Jesus be God if he prays to God himself?

Hebrews 2:17 & John 11:41-42 were always the verses that I was given when I asked this question. It sort of makes sense but feels like one heck of a stretch & this is the aspect of Christianity that I am currently in crisis with; but see my above comment (1.)

 

 

On 4/9/2020 at 5:24 AM, 313 Seeker said:

Jesus further refers to himself as a Prophet here ..

Again, could be a translation/agenda pushing issue. I've never read the original texts and likely never will, so I can't tell you.

 

 

On 4/9/2020 at 5:24 AM, 313 Seeker said:

In John 27:17 Jesus refers to his God as our God. How can one third of a trinity of One God be God of one of the three? How can we treat Jesus as God, when he himself refers to himself.

Because the "trinity" isn't really three distinct persons, but different aspects of God's character. Like how Allah has 99 names that explain his character, those names and attributes don't divide Allah into 99 different gods. Of course, pointing this out will get me shunned/disfellowshiped from your average church so I only go into my personal interpretations of it when someone asks me privately... or on ShiaChat :)

 

On 4/9/2020 at 5:24 AM, 313 Seeker said:

This sounds like God is one according to the gospels and that Jesus is a mediator, which is kind of like the job of a messenger. Wouldn't you say?

I would also like the point out that according to countless quotes from the Old Testament, the talk is always about "One" God, and never once is there talk about a duality or trinity of godhood.

Yeah, that's what that sounds like & that's why I hold the belief that I do (the "trinity" is just three specific aspects of God's character rather than three distinct beings). Believe me, I've struggled with this my entire life and then realized "Wait-- I can actually believe what makes sense to me without the permission of an old man"

The OT talks about the Ruach/Sophia in addition to "God the father" and interestingly enough, this aspect of God is alluded to as being of a feminine/motherly character that's tied in with breath & the wind. This is commonly understood to be the means by which God creates/calls/selects his prophets & fills them with his wisdom (also a euphemism for the Holy spirit itself) for the mission He has assigned them.

The Qur'an supposedly mentions this concept four times as "Ruh al-Qudus" but assigns this to Gabriel rather than God himself.

 

On 4/9/2020 at 5:24 AM, 313 Seeker said:

I don't believe there is a single quote that says God is 3 , or?

I began reading the bible cover to cover while I was in jail earlier this month. I'm at Psalms now, but if I can find it anywhere I will let you know. Again, I'm pretty sure that this whole trinity thing has something to do with ancient numerology (they love their numbers) but Christianity is different because you don't have to believe any dogma you don't want to aside from the whole "Jesus Christ Is My Personal Lord and Savior©" thing because that's quite literally what the long & short of it is. There are more than a few Modalistic Monarchianist & unitarian Christians. It gives you the privilege to think for yourself, which of course has been tremendously downplayed or outright ignored for the purposes of social cohesion/control.


I don't have the answers and I never will while I am wearing this meat suit, so these are all just my opinions as I work through the absurdities of church dogma and remind myself that God gave me the mind he gave me for a reason & that if he didn't want me to question and examine these ideas, I wouldn't be capable of doing so.


Sorry for the long post brother. I hope that maybe this may help you defuse what is perplexing you, but keep in mind also that my views are from my innermost convictions and not a church hierarchy trying to control or modify my behavior. It causes me to "wrestle with God" almost on the daily, jail was really the thing that renewed my faith but I'm more honest and much less willing to accept a dogma now & that's likely why I don't fit in with any religious tradition.

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6 hours ago, GD41586 said:

1. My idea was that Jesus probably wasn't praying, but meditating/collecting himself or whatever. "Pray" would be the term that they would use as more people would understand that concept than they would meditation, although both are essentially the same when you get down to the brass tacks.

hi you are very near to the truth anyway we don't  have any record that how he prayed God but upmost of mediation & any ritual in any prayer form of every religion is uniting with whole world & having straight connection with real creator of everything & everyone that as I studied that original prayer of jews was very similar to current muslim praying except folding hands that instructed by god to punish jews that said hands of god is closed so he can't do anything in world against sins of jews that sunni muslims inherited it through Zoroastrian Iranian prisoner that they were learnt it from resident jew in Iran before Islam at conclusion way of prayer of prophet Muhammad (pbu) through shia Imams & their followers preserved until know that great spiritual shia scholars like Allama Qazi (رضي الله عنه) & his students like  Allma Tabatabaei (رضي الله عنه) & sheikh Behjat through this simple act of prayer & pure intention reached to upmost spirituality & connection to God/Allah that ou call it "meditating/collecting himself or whatever. "

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Hey guys,

I just wanted to jump in as a Christian to try to help make the theology of the Trinity a little bit clearer. First of all, I think the Trinity is a difficult doctrine that we cannot fully understand But God has said, " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

I believe that God is one God but three distinct persons. This is absolutely vital to our understanding of God. Before God created anything, how could He be defined? As Christians we believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I'd also like to point to the fact that we say that God is love. Before God created anything "He could not be love if there were nobody to love. He could not be a Father without a child. And yet it is not as if God created so that He could love someone. He is love, and does not need to create in order to be who He is. If He did, what a needy, lonely thing He would be! "Poor old God," we'd say. If He created us in order to be who He is, we would be giving Him life." (Delighting in the Trinity pg 26) God is all sufficient and so does not need anyone or anything to be who He is but if He were only one person, this would not be the case.

Also, we can see clearly from the beginning of the Bible that God is more than one person. If you look at Genesis 1:26, it says "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." This points to two things. One, that God the Father was not alone. The Son was also there as well as the Spirit. And two, though each member of the Trinity is distinct, they are of the same character and mind. 

I could probably go on forever but I'll stop here. I'd love to hear your responses to this. :)

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi you are very near to the truth anyway we don't  have any record that how he prayed God but upmost of mediation & any ritual in any prayer form of every religion is uniting with whole world & having straight connection with real creator of everything & everyone that as I studied that original prayer of jews was very similar to current muslim praying except folding hands that instructed by god to punish jews that said hands of god is closed so he can't do anything in world against sins of jews that sunni muslims inherited it through Zoroastrian Iranian prisoner that they were learnt it from resident jew in Iran before Islam at conclusion way of prayer of prophet Muhammad (pbu) through shia Imams & their followers preserved until know that great spiritual shia scholars like Allama Qazi (رضي الله عنه) & his students like  Allma Tabatabaei (رضي الله عنه) & sheikh Behjat through this simple act of prayer & pure intention reached to upmost spirituality & connection to God/Allah that ou call it "meditating/collecting himself or whatever. "

Hello Ash! Glad to see that you're still around with everything that's happening with COVID19 over in the Islamic Republic :) because I did legitimately worry about you and the rest of the Iranian brothers and sisters that post here after I had heard what I had heard in the news.

Don't mistake my words as being frivolous, I was on the verge of falling asleep (first full night's sleep I've gotten since before I was incarcerated, praise God!:yahoo:) and my brain was pretty much shutting down by that point.

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@GD41586

Thank you for your kind response and hope that all is well.

Just wanted to say that I can understand how you see the three as we see the 99 names of God. The difference, however, is that we don't say one Name of God sent the other, while one is the son of the this one. Or that one manifestation prays to the other one, or that one manifestation worships another. Also, we don't have one manifestation claiming to be inferior to the other, by saying that one is good, while the other isn't.

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3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

@GD41586

Thank you for your kind response and hope that all is well.

Just wanted to say that I can understand how you see the three as we see the 99 names of God. The difference, however, is that we don't say one Name of God sent the other, while one is the son of the this one. Or that one manifestation prays to the other one, or that one manifestation worships another. Also, we don't have one manifestation claiming to be inferior to the other, by saying that one is good, while the other isn't.

I actually agree with you, and that's what gets me kicked out of churches in my area:shifty:.

I mean, I've said pretty much what you've just written & argued it to them using the words of the Nicene creed (one being, consubstantial with the father... proceeds from the father & son, etc). Remember also that the protestants have removed I think it was seven books from the OT canon because they couldn't refute them, so organized Christianity has a tendency to cherry pick & ignore whatever is inconvenient to whatever doctrine they are pushing.

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4 hours ago, GD41586 said:

Remember also that the protestants have removed I think it was seven books from the OT canon because they couldn't refute them, so organized Christianity has a tendency to cherry pick & ignore whatever is inconvenient to whatever doctrine they are pushing.

As far as I am aware, I see people critique the formation of the Bible, but I've never really known anything of the details of how the Quran was constructed. Such as, where individual manuscripts came from (who were the scribes, where they came from, what verses they memorized, how well they carried the message etc.). There are disputes relating to when the Quran was codified, and concepts related to Uthmans destruction of alternative versions and what are essentially apocryphal texts that were for whatever reason, deemed inaccurate. Of course these are further disputes among Hadith as well, and yet Hadith really play a significant role in our understanding of Islam today.

Only by denying alternative accounts has the history of Islam not involved gray areas of unknown details and dispute.

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3 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

I've never really known anything of the details of how the Quran was constructed. Such as, where individual manuscripts came from (who were the scribes, where they came from, what verses they memorized, how well they carried the message etc.)

my understanding is that the Qur'an wasn't actually written down until a decent amount of time had elapsed, as the word quite literally means "the recitation". It was memorized by Muslims specifically so that it could not become corrupted and packed full of agendas like the Bible has been over the past 1700 years. The prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was could not read or write, which is what made the Qur'an so special.

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1 hour ago, GD41586 said:

my understanding is that the Qur'an wasn't actually written down until a decent amount of time had elapsed, as the word quite literally means "the recitation". It was memorized by Muslims specifically so that it could not become corrupted and packed full of agendas like the Bible has been over the past 1700 years. The prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was could not read or write, which is what made the Qur'an so special.

Exactly.

So, what I am saying is that, at least to my knowledge, I've never known or read who those Muslims were that memorized the Prophets words. Nor how those ideas were later conveyed to Uthman (or whomever) who later compiled the Quran. Nor am I familiar with the extent in which Uthman had destroyed alternate manuscripts. And even further with the Hadith, there are ongoing disputes for which, I'm not sure that clarity exists.

Ideally there would be a list of books, each book with it's specific scribe that is known. Details of the scribes transfer of information. Agreement on what documents were accepted vs rejected and why. 

Edited by iCenozoic

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5 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I actually agree with you, and that's what gets me kicked out of churches in my area:shifty:.

I mean, I've said pretty much what you've just written & argued it to them using the words of the Nicene creed (one being, consubstantial with the father... proceeds from the father & son, etc). Remember also that the protestants have removed I think it was seven books from the OT canon because they couldn't refute them, so organized Christianity has a tendency to cherry pick & ignore whatever is inconvenient to whatever doctrine they are pushing.

Whatever you do, even if you convert to Islam, please do one thing that most converts don't do. PLEASE! Please hold on to the good you have learned in Christianity, which is kindness, humility, affection, love, beauty, etc which Jesus was a champion of. I believe that every messenger came with unique strengths and perks. Jesus has very unique characteristics that really resonate with forgiveness, merci, gentleness and very high levels of spiritual ranks. Most people who go from being Christians to Muslims, kind of discard everything and start totally new ( they actually end up rejecting the Spirit of God without knowing it, I believe ). But I urge you not to discard the good, which you will find in the Muslim world lacking. Muslims are very inferior when it comes to certain refined aspects, because most of them don't seek the truth outside one prophet's wisdom. Ideally we should learn from all prophets and adapt all their characteristics and strengths. Anyway, please keep me personally posted on your progress, and also maintain the best possible ties with all your churches and family and Christian friends. Keep me informed by either replying to me on any thread, or tagging me, or PM-ing me, please. I would like to know more about your evolution. Thanks

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4 hours ago, GD41586 said:

The prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Does the forum automatically format this honorific? I ask because I have no Arabic keyboard (and certainly cant write it) and attempted to put the honorific in English as I have seen many English language Islamic authors do, so if I offended anyone I am truly sorry for that and had no intention of doing so.

I can just copypaste that from now on if its not automatic.

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3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Whatever you do, even if you convert to Islam, please do one thing that most converts don't do. PLEASE! Please hold on to the good you have learned in Christianity, which is kindness, humility, affection, love, beauty, etc which Jesus was a champion of.

Oh absolutely. I'm of the opinion that universal truths do exist, so when I find something good that seems real to me, I claim it. I have already done this with some Islamic values that American culture tries to denigrate and shame people for (ex: living with my mother because she is a divorced woman who never remarried and doesn't want to, and she's getting older now. She fell last year and although she only got a bad bruise, I IMMEDIATELY began rethinking my decision to move in with my then-girlfriend and her son & have struggled with the conviction that I need to help my mother and protect her while she ages into a senior citizen).

 

 

3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

I believe that every messenger came with unique strengths and perks. Jesus has very unique characteristics that really resonate with forgiveness, merci, gentleness and very high levels of spiritual ranks

Believe it or not, so do I. I recently began reading the Bible from Genesis (straight through, like a novel) & although I am at Psalms now, I have already been able to compare Abraham, Noah, Elijah, David, Solomon, and noticed that they all had their strengths and weaknesses. I had read the Gospels before, but upon reading the OT I noticed that Jesus/Isa/Yahoshua was very different from the rest of these. I did the whole "Accept Jesus Christ Into Your Heart As Your Personal LORD & Savior©" thing many times as a teenager to make sure that salvation would "stick", but I've always had very extreme doubts as to what the Gospels say that Jesus taught versus what my priests, pastors, and other church leaders had taught me that he taught (he called himself the Son of Man rather than the Son of God, he prayed in Gethsemane in desperation, and my personal favorite that my local church leadership loathes to talk about because they are always selling books & DVDs: he drove the merchants out of the temple in disgust).

 

3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Most people who go from being Christians to Muslims, kind of discard everything and start totally new ( they actually end up rejecting the Spirit of God without knowing it, I believe )

I can kind of understand this, as Islam does seem to be very demanding when all you are exposed to is Salafism. However, I do not know anyone who has ever gone from Christian to Muslim, so I can't speak from experience but yeah, I definitely get what you mean.

 

4 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

I urge you not to discard the good, which you will find in the Muslim world lacking. Muslims are very inferior when it comes to certain refined aspects, because most of them don't seek the truth outside one prophet's wisdom. Ideally we should learn from all prophets and adapt all their characteristics and strengths

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I know exactly three Muslims on a personal basis, two are girls & none of them are particularly pious or devout people, although they definitely don't drink, date, etc but have always been very warm to me (the youngest one, a coworker, was inviting me to the masjid and wanted me to meet her dad & brother). I've never been to the Muslim world either (never even been to Canada, USA all my life) so I have no frame of reference for how people are. I think I get what you mean about not seeking truth outside one prophet's wisdom though, that's always been a very baptist/pentecostal/evangelical trait-- that the Bible quite literally fell out of the sky in 1611, in English, and that you don't need to look for wisdom or truth anywhere external to it.

One of my biggest fears/barriers is that I am kind of in love with Jesus and don't want to give him up, and it's already been somewhat difficult for me to imagine walking away from him... but there is *something* about Islam, something that I can't exactly put words to or describe; that has appealed to me since I was a much younger man and was given a pocket "Complete Idiot's Guide to Islam" (with the words "complete idiot" scratched out & drawn over with black ink) by a high school classmate from Iran.

But yeah, I'll do my best to keep you posted and let you follow my journey.

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17 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

@GD41586

Thank you for your kind response and hope that all is well.

Just wanted to say that I can understand how you see the three as we see the 99 names of God. The difference, however, is that we don't say one Name of God sent the other, while one is the son of the this one. Or that one manifestation prays to the other one, or that one manifestation worships another. Also, we don't have one manifestation claiming to be inferior to the other, by saying that one is good, while the other isn't.

Thanks for your response! I wanted to make it clear that though there is some disagreement in the Christian community, that I believe that the Bible clearly shows that there is no level of hierarchy of the Trinity. They simply have different roles. "The action of the Trinity in our world reflects this same order: the Father does all things through the Word (Christ) in the Holy Spirit. We likewise find here the order of sending: the Father sends His Son and His Spirit." (The Trinity by Emery Gilles) John 13:31-32 says, "When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. "If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once." So you see, the Father glorifies (makes much of) the Son and the Son glorifies the Father and the Spirit brings glory to both of them. I pray that this makes sense to you.

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16 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I've always had very extreme doubts as to what the Gospels say that Jesus taught versus what my priests, pastors, and other church leaders had taught me that he taught

Hi dear GD,

Nice to read your words, and I'm glad to see you are being a good son and supporter of people around you. After all, that's what religion is about.

Please keep this criticism as it's good. The religions are made up of texts, and the only job of scholars/priests/sheikhs/pastors/rabbis/etc is to point people towards those texts. They are basically people who have simply read more and can help people find shortcuts to information that ideally should have nothing to do with their personal opinions. Unfortunately most of those people will not do that today, and will give opinions and rulings without giving direct reference to their choice. In some cultures people and especially women are discouraged from accessing and reading those texts alone, because once people have read them themselves, their roles will be less powerful. They will have less sway over people around them, so it's natural that some people want to keep knowledge to themselves. Knowledge is power, but this is the polar opposite of what the Prophets and holy books say. We are required to teach and spread the truth as much as we can, to anybody who is willing to listen. So from my point of view I want to give you the advice of reading the Quran yourself cover-to-cover, and also to read the narrations we have from the Prophet and his household. Once you have read them like a novel, you will feel an empowerment that priests and sheikhs feel. Now you will be in the position of judging and knowing what resonates with God and His prophet, and what not. Just as you are doing in the Bible now, and please continue till the end. The same should be done by every man, woman, and child who is capable and willing to read.

16 hours ago, GD41586 said:

he called himself the Son of Man rather than the Son of God, he prayed in Gethsemane in desperation, and my personal favorite that my local church leadership loathes to talk about because they are always selling books & DVDs: he drove the merchants out of the temple in disgust

Very good points! Thank you.

 

16 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I can kind of understand this, as Islam does seem to be very demanding when all you are exposed to is Salafism. However, I do not know anyone who has ever gone from Christian to Muslim, so I can't speak from experience but yeah, I definitely get what you mean.

The Salafis have their equivalent in the Christian world, and they happen to be allied politically as well. And those two are allied with the equivalent among the Jews as well. 

 

16 hours ago, GD41586 said:

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Sure! Well, I'll give you an example that I see with my plain eyes. Many Christians are actually in contact and immersed in the Spirit of God, because their intentions are good, even though they are unknowingly assigning partners to God. I don't know if you know this, but God refers to Jesus as the Spirit of God and the Word of God in the Quran as well. So you find many good things in the Christian world that you wont find in the Muslim world. One of those things is how they treat animals with merci in comparison to Muslims. For some reason almost all Muslim countries suffer from fear of animals and animal abuse. You can see it in how they handle their livestock, how they don't seem to be able to connect with the spirit in nature and the animals as much as Christians do. There is a divine spark in all animals, and this is a spiritual entity. Muslims really are not in touch with this, and therefore many of them have problems even reading the language of the animals, and the environment. Now I am generalizing, as we obviously have Muslim animal lovers, while there are Christian animal abusers, but as a general rule one can see it when visiting Muslim countries vs. Christian countries. Christians have more compassion in many ways, and this is just an example of something that I would like you to carry with you if you decide to venture into the world of Islam.

What most Christians who convert do, is they see Islam as a social club, and a society. Islam actually is a process, and a personal path one takes towards ones God. There is no society in between us and God. Most people who convert do so out of the need of having friendship and the sense of belonging. So they go to Islamic centers and find it there. Meeting Muslims isn't at all necessary for us to be Muslims, or to benefit from the many texts we have. Especially in this day and age, there are enough videos and online books, that meeting people isn't a must at all. Also keep in mind that the prophet has said according to a very well known narration, that the people claiming to be Muslims will be divided into 73 groupings, and that 72 of them will go to hell. And that out of the 73, you have 13 who claim to be Shia (followers of the prophetic family), and 12 of those are going to hell. The same narration talks similarly about 72 and 71 groups of Christian and Jews, respectively, out of which only one also is saved. So even thinking that one is Muslim is no guarantee of anything.

One of the most important things where the Church deviated in my opinion, is in the topic of fear. The Bible talks clearly about the importance of fearing God, yet the churches teach the opposite. In Islam we are likewise encouraged to fear God, because we can never be sure of our own standing in front of God, until the final Judgment day. This kind of mentality helps us be humble and not look at others in an arrogant way. Because we are aware that they could be among the saved ones, while we might not be!

I see the prophets a bit like X-Men - even if X-Men was not made by very pious people, but you know what I mean. Each Prophet, like all of us, had unique strengths. And by studying them, and trying to assimilate them, we gain their super powers to some extent. The prophets are a continuation of each other. Like Jesus said his last words of advice, that we should sell our coat to buy a sword, and then came a prophet with a sword. This sword of prophet Mohamed was and is a spiritual sword that is centered in the heart of every believer and follower of prophet Mohamed. That's why you find little strains of this fight spirit in Muslims today, such as Cashius Clay (Mohamed Ali), Mike Tyson, Habib Nure-something, etc. Muslims by nature are a warring nation, a bit like some of the honorable native American tribes who also had their prophets. If you read the stories of Ali bin Abi Taleb, you will find the definition of chivalry, courage, and divine use of the sword. So, this was ordered, and brought by the next prophet like a baton given from one prophet to the other. This also reminds of how Jesus basically predicted the advent of someone who would come after him, and even the start of the Quran is basically quoted in the Bible if I'm not wrong about it. The part where Angel Gabriel (عليه السلام) asks the prophet to read, and the prophet refuses saying that he's illiterate. Jesus talks about a "comforter" coming, and so this can not be himself. A person who would make everything clear and finish his work. Poor Prophet Jesus didn't have many tools and followers to protect him to complete his work. He left haphazardly and all of a sudden. Prophet Mohamed, on the other had the power and tools to really cement and finish this religion. Therefore, he was called the seal of the Prophets, as he basically sealed the work of the previous partners of his. 

6 hours ago, Nathan said:

the Father does all things through the Word (Christ) in the Holy Spirit. We likewise find here the order of sending: the Father sends His Son and His Spirit." (The Trinity by Emery Gilles) John 13:31-32 says, "When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. "If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once." So you see, the Father glorifies (makes much of) the Son and the Son glorifies the Father and the Spirit brings glory to both of them. I pray that this makes sense to you.

Well, it is very confusing to say the least!

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Worshiping Jesus is shirk according to the Old Testament:

“You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(Exodus 20:3-6)

All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together. The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house
(Isaiah 44:9-20)

Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves any gods of cast metal: I am the Lord your God.
(Leviticus 19:4)

Pay attention to all that I have said to you, and make no mention of the names of other gods, nor let it be heard on your lips.
(Exodus 23:13)

“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
(Leviticus 23:19)

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
(Hosea 11:9)

Don't forget Deuteronomy 13:

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder,
and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”
you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,
gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.
You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.
Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
(Deuteronomy 13:1-11)

What does the Old Testament say about God, specifically?:

"To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. (Deuteronomy 6:4-6)

'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19)

For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, he is God!, who formed the earth and made it, he established it;
he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited! “I am the Lord, and there is no other (Isaiah 45:18)

“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’ (Isaiah 45:22)

To whom can you compare Me Or declare Me similar? To whom can you liken Me, So that we seem comparable? (Isaiah 46:5)

Bear in mind what happened of old; For I am God, and there is none else, I am divine, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah 46:9)

For the sake of My name I control My wrath; To My own glory, I am patient with you, And I will not destroy you. See, I refine you, but not as silver; I test you in the furnace of affliction. For My sake, My own sake, do I act— Lest [My name] be dishonored! I will not give My glory to another. Listen to Me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am He—I am the first, And I am the last as well. My own hand founded the earth, My right hand spread out the skies. I call unto them, let them stand up. (Isaiah 48:9-13)

"O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20)

 

The New Testament:

 

Jesus explicitly teaching the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4 - a mirror of Surah Ikhlas ayah 1 and Tawhid in general)

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment greater than these.” “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. (Mark 12:28-34)

 

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
 

All of this alone is enough to clean the plate with false doctrines in Christianity and their deeply sinful deviation from the Pure Monotheism of Abraham. 

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