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In the Name of God بسم الله
MartyS

Abraham was counted righteous because he believed God

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As a Christian, I believe I am counted righteous before God because Jesus paid the price for my sins--taking my guilt away and giving me His righteousness before God. I only realized tonight, reading this Bible verse, that Abraham, and his descendants (before Jesus), were counted righteous by a different criteria...

And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. - Genesis 15:6

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So by this criteria you’re saying individuals who have not accepted the divinity of Jesus Christ, but subscribe to the belief of God are able to attain righteousness?

If yes, is this not a contradiction to the ecumenical teachings in the sense that it does not introduce belief in the sacrifice of Christ for one’s sins as a fundamental tenant of attaining righteousness, considering that lofty position for those who maintain a heightened state of God-consciousness.

If no, please furthermore elaborate on the statement and premise you’re establishing.

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43 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

So by this criteria you’re saying individuals who have not accepted the divinity of Jesus Christ, but subscribe to the belief of God are able to attain righteousness?

If yes, is this not a contradiction to the ecumenical teachings in the sense that it does not introduce belief in the sacrifice of Christ for one’s sins as a fundamental tenant of attaining righteousness, considering that lofty position for those who maintain a heightened state of God-consciousness.

If no, please furthermore elaborate on the statement and premise you’re establishing.

Yes. This was obviously true for Abraham and his descendants. I am grateful that God made a way for me to obtain righteousness through Jesus, my Lord. Whether it is more lofty or not, I cannot say.

20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."
23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,
24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, - Romans 4:20-24

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1 hour ago, MartyS said:

And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. - Genesis 15:6

It would be interesting to know that the word in Hebrew that was translated to 'believe' means.

In Islam what people translate into believe is actually linked to the word security. They put their security or amn in Arabic, into God alone.

The problem is that Satan also believes in God and the Prophets. He is aware of all that. That's if we use the word believe as meaning 'aware' or being 'conscious of it'. So just knowing isn't enough

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7 hours ago, MuhammadFreeman said:

Jesus didn't die for anybody else's sins. He died because men are mortal and will die before judgment day

Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) didn't die!

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14 minutes ago, starlight said:

Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) didn't die!

Completely Agree. He ascended to heaven. I think I just had a brain smart, tell me if my thinking is correct: He was ascended to heaven, which is why he will return. Otherwise it is reincarnation belief, which goes against the human element of Jesus (عليه السلام). Same with Mahdi (عليه السلام) who is in occultation. That is why these two figures will return! Subhanallah.

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On 4/3/2020 at 7:40 AM, starlight said:

He died because men are mortal and will die before judgment day

The eye witness accounts in the New Testament - Injil - are clear that Jesus died.  The exciting thing that makes his death different from mortal men is that he rose from the dead never to die again by the power of God. Again attested by eye witnesses.  That is why he will return.  Not because of reincarnation or occultation. He will return with the authority to judge. At that point all of us, me, you and Abraham will be judged by the fair, just, impartial judge - the God who knows all people's hearts and has set the critirea for salvation will make the correct and undisbutable decision about our eternal destiny.

May we all hear his welcome on that day!

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On 3/23/2020 at 10:58 PM, MartyS said:

As a Christian, I believe I am counted righteous before God

As a Christian also, I can assure you that No, you're not (Romans 3:10)

"As it is written, there is none righteous. Not even one"

The best of your good deeds are like filthy, stinking rags to God & so are mine. (Isaiah 64:6)

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

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13 hours ago, GD41586 said:

As a Christian also, I can assure you that No, you're not (Romans 3:10)

"As it is written, there is none righteous. Not even one"

The best of your good deeds are like filthy, stinking rags to God & so are mine. (Isaiah 64:6)

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

I completely agree. Before I became a Christian, when I relied on my good works to make me righteous before God, I was without hope. But as Isaiah prophesied, concerning Jesus, in Isaiah 53:11...

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.  - Isaiah 53:11

And as Peter quoted Isaiah 53:5, he said...

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. - 1 Peter 2:24

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So going back to the original post, as Abraham was counted righteous by faith in God, not by works done in his flesh; so, too, we are counted as righteous, having right-standing with God, forgiven of all our filthy sins, not by any good works, but by our faith in Jesus, the one God sent to make an end of sins.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-
22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26

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1 hour ago, MartyS said:

I completely agree. Before I became a Christian, when I relied on my good works to make me righteous before God, I was without hope. But as Isaiah prophesied, concerning Jesus, in Isaiah 53:11...

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.  - Isaiah 53:11

And as Peter quoted Isaiah 53:5, he said...

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. - 1 Peter 2:24

Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

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15 hours ago, GD41586 said:

The best of your good deeds are like filthy, stinking rags to God & so are mine. (Isaiah 64:6)

Interesting. This reminds me of the quote “Hakim Luqmān ((رضي الله عنه)) advised his son in his will. ‘If your deeds equal the good deeds of all men and Jinns, together, you must expect that you may yet be punished by Him. And you must hope in Allah so much that even if you carry the burden of the total sins of men and jinns, and approach Allah for forgiveness, He will pardon you.’ And the Prophet said something like  "The only reason why I'm going to Heaven is because of God's mercy". 

Thank for sharing that verse

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9 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

“Hakim Luqmān ((رضي الله عنه)) advised his son in his will. ‘If your deeds equal the good deeds of all men and Jinns, together, you must expect that you may yet be punished by Him. And you must hope in Allah so much that even if you carry the burden of the total sins of men and jinns, and approach Allah for forgiveness, He will pardon you.’ And the Prophet said something like  "The only reason why I'm going to Heaven is because of God's mercy". 

Whoa... the Prophet (peace & blessings) legit said that??

That sounds very close to the Christian concept of grace...

9 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

Thank for sharing that verse

No, thank you.
I've got some pondering to do...

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9 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

When we read the life and teaching of Jesus in the Gospels there are so (many) clues to its authenticity.

Are there really? What are they? Because a lot of the gospels seem like they've been manipulated & edited to force a specific perspective on who Yeshua/Ieosus/Isa/Jesus was and what he taught, and I'll tell you this: what he taught never seems to square up with what any church I've been to teaches it's congregation in regards to how to live.

Shucks, I can show you how Christians haven't used the full canonical bible since at least the Protestant reformation began & how the Catholic church is so riddled full of dogmas that they can't admit to very simple, common sense concepts like Mary having other children aside from Jesus (Jesus had a brother, if not brothers) & Mary being a mortal woman who was perfectly obedient to God upon meeting with Gabriel/Jibrail (I have a byzantine style icon of Gabriel and many of Mary with the infant Jesus, they are beautiful and looking at them gives me comfort when my mental health is particularly low, but they have no power in and of themselves).

As far as Jesus dying, I was always taught that Jesus "had to die to atone for the sins of mankind" but this never made sense to me as to why the ONE God of literally everything would be powerless enough that he would NEED a condition to be fulfilled in order to forgive sins rather than just being able to forgive them in his infinite grace and mercy... because He is the ONLY God that exists and is mighty beyond human understanding. Maybe Jesus died because he was teaching a way that upset the religious leaders of his day, so they conspired against him to frame him up for a "crime" that the Roman authorities didn't care about; that is, IF Jesus actually died and wasn't simply saved by God who put the "other Jesus" (Jesus bar-Abbas aka 'Barabbas') on the cross or even Simon of Cyrene, who was forced to carry the cross.

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22 hours ago, GD41586 said:


Are there really? What are they? Because a lot of the gospels seem like they've been manipulated & edited to force a specific perspective on who Yeshua/Ieosus/Isa/Jesus was and what he taught,

 

It's a common view, but even if accepted simply kicks the can down the road. Why did the Early Church think these things about Jesus? What events created this group with the particular set of beliefs they had?

what he taught never seems to square up with what any church I've been to teaches it's congregation in regards to how to live.

Churches are full of people who fail on an ongoing basis. It's best when they are aware of this, because then they actually get how much they need God.

As far as Jesus dying, I was always taught that Jesus "had to die to atone for the sins of mankind" but this never made sense to me as to why the ONE God of literally everything would be powerless enough that he would NEED a condition to be fulfilled in order to forgive sins rather than just being able to forgive them in his infinite grace and mercy... because He is the ONLY God that exists and is mighty beyond human understanding.

Because sin needed to be excluded rather than forgiven, and that was the only way to do it. God hates sin and wants to see it removed rather than tolerated. That's the gist of the word translated as 'righteous' in the Bible.

IF Jesus actually died and wasn't simply saved by God who put the "other Jesus" (Jesus bar-Abbas aka 'Barabbas') on the cross or even Simon of Cyrene, who was forced to carry the cross.

Jesus was crucified, that is a historical fixed point. The evidence is overwhelming.

 

Which retro games do you like?

 

 

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17 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Because sin needed to be excluded rather than forgiven, and that was the only way to do it. God hates sin and wants to see it removed rather than tolerated. That's the gist of the word translated as 'righteous' in the Bible.

I agree! Just as sin entered the world of mankind through Adam in the Garden of Eden, sin was excluded when Jesus, who being God, perfect and sinless, became a man and crucified sin on behalf of all mankind who would believe in Him! To assure us that sin was defeated, and mankind was restored to right relationship with God (righteousness), God the Father raised Jesus, God the Son, from the dead, so we can know we will be raised from the dead, also!

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On 3/24/2020 at 1:48 AM, Mohammad313Ali said:

So by this criteria you’re saying individuals who have not accepted the divinity of Jesus Christ, but subscribe to the belief of God are able to attain righteousness?

If yes, is this not a contradiction to the ecumenical teachings in the sense that it does not introduce belief in the sacrifice of Christ for one’s sins as a fundamental tenant of attaining righteousness, considering that lofty position for those who maintain a heightened state of God-consciousness.

If no, please furthermore elaborate on the statement and premise you’re establishing.

I do find it interesting that while Jesus' body lie in the tomb for three days, He went in the Spirit to preach the gospel (good news) to the "spirits in prison" who drowned in the flood during Noah's time. 

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. - 1 Peter 3:18-20

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