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Does Disney believe in flat Earth theory?

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13 minutes ago, Guest Wag1 said:

it does seem that many a scholar believed in a heliocentric model at that time. Which may I add was largely disproved prior to the U.S.A & discovery of the Antarctic & NASA.

ah interesting. I didn't know that. thanks

Edited by 313 Seeker

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3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Thank you this is the flat Earth model I think I'll save this one.

Mi nah understand how ya take dis to be a flat Earth model, at best it's geocentric maybe.

3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

I am truly greatly thankful that over several years you are the first to bring more confirming hadiths.

Nah brudda, I found it here: https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064348-what-do-you-think-of-flat-earthers/?do=findComment&comment=3250861

1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

ah interesting. I didn't know that. thanks

Pardon, I got mixed up. I meant to say geocentric was the norm and then was disproved by... Mi nuh no his name... Newton? Galileo?

Anyways, I also saw this when searching: https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031257-flat-Earth-concept/?do=findComment&comment=2819153https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031257-flat-Earth-concept/?do=findComment&comment=2819161


Koran only has vague verses relating to God creating the Earth. As another user here said, they had to be relevant to the people of the time and make sense to their lives.

I don't get the debate nowadays tho... like we've seen the redbull guys jumping from space, elon musk's car... I've seen people launching home made rockets into space on Youtube too, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQGjNu6Inak, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8W-auqg024&ab_channel=TomScott (funny), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGyRtL_kO28&ab_channel=MonicaDaniels, though I've seen some more makeshift type stuff too. Also, all the space stuff, all the astronomers. Satellites, photographs. The whole conspiracy is ridiculous on the face of it, innit? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ2cAPx9ML4&ab_channel=NetflixIsAJoke (funny, but look away from badly dressed gyal(s) in audience).

Nobody has posted debunk videos yet, so here are some, but I haven't reviewed them myself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGjFAe018oA&ab_channel=BigThinkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMtx5jVLUaUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLPPE3_DVCwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDy95_eNPzM&ab_channel=ProfessorDaveExplainshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyD8VIK032o

I can safely say this a topic I don't need in my life. Why should we research into the scientific views of a tiny minority? How will this help bring back the Imam of our time.

It seems a lot of flat Earth arguments are "moving the goal post" fallacies, like "but how about X", "scan Y particle". Then again, I can't fault these man. It's like how come people can't see God as the Creator, and why are they very very bad at separating creation from Creator. Like you have to keep reminding people that XYZ is a creation.

So on the one hand, if I'm not willing to engage with flat-earthers why not extend the same logic to mushrik or munafiq. Some people have ridiculous cosmology, some people have ridiculous theology, and this is relative to what I believe. I (we Shias & all Muslims & maybe all Monotheists) believe there can only be one truth, one absolute reality. On the other hand, the specifics of the scientific cosmological debate seems pointless and a distraction to the Shia. If these people have very big mistrust then that's ok for dem to have, isn't it? Let's leave it at that. Also, though, the whole ting could be for clicks and subsequent $$$$$$$$$$$$$. 

Eh mek mi wonder eff wi waste fi wi time wid dem. God knows best. hamdu-Allah. Safe

 

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19 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well the connection between Earth and mountains to our beds and carpets is much more far fetched than adding bodies of water to this. 

Le's look at some words:

Farashna .. that means spread and is still used today among modern Arabic speakers when it comes to spreading a table cloth for instance. I think all translators are in unison about this one.

Madad .. that you mentioned too

Bisaatan (example 71:19)

let's look at all the translations I could find ..

2051611792_ScreenShot2020-03-25at9_15_31AM.thumb.png.5e35e08db0b7a92eedbd71ba3a5fc69f.png

Taha (example 91:6)

Let's look how all translators translate that word

1399965016_ScreenShot2020-03-25at9_21_00AM.thumb.png.f3f4a844b4f2b0a84ea4dfa9b6f30b04.png

When you look at Suni hadiths, you will find they are in agreement with the above Shia one, especially with the whale part. 

Here I found a website discussing it from a suni perspective. (I know some hate this website called wikiislam, but maybe you can just look at the references and ignore the rest)

Did Muhammad and the Earliest Muslims know the Earth is Round?

So these suni hadiths are in unison with the Shia hadith and the Qur'an.

 

I think we can conclude from the Qur'an examples given by both sides of the argument, that there is much more evidence of flat spread-out world, with 7 layers below us and 7 layers above us, with the sky as a roof, than having the heliocentric model of today. To me anyway.

“Farsh”  basically conveys the meaning of plain surface weather it is carpet, bed, table cloth or land

Bisata: expanded and even ,and wide or spacious

And Allah has made for you the land expanse so that you can pass  through it the wide roads (71:19-20)

In the above verse Nuh(عليه السلام) was talking to his people and reminding them the bounties of Allah on them.

So Nuh(عليه السلام) was saying to his people that the land is so vast that you can make the wide roads through it . Like the following verse

Was not the land of Allah spacious for you to emigrate there in? 4:97

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Disney also made Wall E which kinda clearly showed Earth is elliptical/round 

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2 hours ago, Hassu93 said:

Disney also made Wall E which kinda clearly showed Earth is elliptical/round 

Both Disney & Pixar made Wall-E. Frozen 2 was made only by Disney. Wall-E hit theatres in 2008. Flat-Earth movement didn't take off until 2014. 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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On 3/25/2020 at 5:27 AM, 313 Seeker said:

Of the things that raise suspicion among some:

  1. Richard Byrd explores the Antarctic on behalf of the US government and states that it is full of resources and riches.
  2. After that they suddenly decide that Antartica is off limits for any kind of mining or permanent presence
  3. After Richard Byrd's last exploration called Operation Deep Freeze, he dies and the Soviets and US start nuking the atmosphere. The US operation was called Operation Fishbowl, with a missile called Thor.

Adding to the Darwinist evolution, and the whole LGBTQ mania + the "do as thou wilt" mentality initiated by the self-proclaimed beast 666 Alistair Crowly, and the heliocentric model, etc etc .. you just have more and more anti Bible/Qur'an beliefs that make people treat the religions of God as fairytales.

Crowleys beliefs were incompatible with Islam on the basis that they reject submission to a monotheistic deity, the full quote for do what thou wilt included shall be the whole of the law under love, so it's closer to Indian indigenous faiths in that regard.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

Quote

Islamic astronomy

Islamic astronomy was developed on the basis of a spherical Earth inherited from Hellenistic astronomy.[85] The Islamic theoretical framework largely relied on the fundamental contributions of Aristotle (De caelo) and Ptolemy (Almagest), both of whom worked from the premise that the Earth was spherical and at the centre of the universe (geocentric model).[85]

Early Islamic scholars recognized Earth's sphericity,[86] leading Muslim mathematicians to develop spherical trigonometry[87] in order to further mensuration and to calculate the distance and direction from any given point on the Earth to Mecca. This determined the Qibla, or Muslim direction of prayer.

Quote

Al-Ma'mun

Around 830 CE, Caliph al-Ma'mun commissioned a group of Muslim astronomers and geographers to measure the distance from Tadmur (Palmyra) to Raqqa in modern Syria. They found the cities to be separated by one degree of latitude and the meridian arc distance between them to be 662⁄3 miles and thus calculated the Earth's circumference to be 24,000 miles (39,000 km).[88][89]

Another estimate given by his astronomers was 562⁄3 Arabic miles (111.8 km) per degree, which corresponds to a circumference of 40,248 km, very close to the currently modern values of 111.3 km per degree and 40,068 km circumference, respectively.[90]

Quote

Ibn Hazm

Andalusian polymath Ibn Hazm stated that the proof of the Earth's sphericity "is that the Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth".[91]

Quote

Al-Farghānī

Al-Farghānī (Latinized as Alfraganus) was a Persian astronomer of the 9th century involved in measuring the diameter of the Earth, and commissioned by Al-Ma'mun. His estimate given above for a degree (562⁄3 Arabic miles) was much more accurate than the 602⁄3 Roman miles (89.7 km) given by Ptolemy. Christopher Columbus uncritically used Alfraganus's figure as if it were in Roman miles instead of in Arabic miles, in order to prove a smaller size of the Earth than that propounded by Ptolemy.[92]

Quote

Biruni

Abu Rayhan Biruni (973–1048) used a new method to accurately compute the Earth's circumference, by which he arrived at a value that was close to modern values for the Earth's circumference.[93] His estimate of 6,339.6 km for the Earth radius was only 31.4 km less than the modern mean value of 6,371.0 km.[94] In contrast to his predecessors, who measured the Earth's circumference by sighting the Sun simultaneously from two different locations, Biruni developed a new method of using trigonometric calculations based on the angle between a plain and mountain top. This yielded more accurate measurements of the Earth's circumference and made it possible for a single person to measure it from a single location.[95][96] Biruni's method was intended to avoid "walking across hot, dusty deserts," and the idea came to him when he was on top of a tall mountain in India. From the top of the mountain, he sighted the angle to the horizon which, along with the mountain's height (which he calculated beforehand), allowed him to calculate the curvature of the Earth.[97][98] He also made use of algebra to formulate trigonometric equations and used the astrolabe to measure angles.[99][100][101]

According to John J. O'Connor and Edmund F. Robertson,

Important contributions to geodesy and geography were also made by Biruni. He introduced techniques to measure the Earth and distances on it using triangulation. He found the radius of the Earth to be 6339.6 km, a value not obtained in the West until the 16th century. His Masudic canon contains a table giving the coordinates of six hundred places, almost all of which he had direct knowledge.[102]

Quote

Applications

Muslim scholars who held to the round Earth theory used it for a quintessentially Islamic purpose: to calculate the distance and direction from any given point on the Earth to Mecca.[103] This determined the Qibla, or Muslim direction of prayer.

A terrestrial globe (Kura-I-ard) was among the presents sent by the Persian Muslim astronomer Jamal-al-Din to Kublai Khan's Chinese court in 1267. It was made of wood on which "seven parts of water are represented in green, three parts of land in white, with rivers, lakes etc."[104] Ho Peng Yoke remarks that "it did not seem to have any general appeal to the Chinese in those days".[105]

 

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4 hours ago, MuhammadFreeman said:

Crowleys beliefs were incompatible with Islam on the basis that they reject submission to a monotheistic deity, the full quote for do what thou wilt included shall be the whole of the law under love, so it's closer to Indian indigenous faiths in that regard.

Crowley pretended to follow the religion of ancient Egypt by claiming that an entity called Horus came to him and dictated to him his holy book inside the "Kings Chamber" of the great pyramid of Gizah. Of course we know now that it's not a tomb, but anyway. This book he wrote, and the religion he followed did not have anything to do with ancient Egyptian religion, which does not encourage people to do as they want. They get judged after dying in front of a balance, just like Islam. And if their heart is heavier than a feather, then they're doomed. So the state of the heart determines our success in both Islam of our time and the Islam of the ancient Egyptians. 

Same goes for the ancient native Americans:

This is a very rough estimate of major tribes of native Americans ..

native_american_map.thumb.jpg.244602340aed17dcfd7e6cc37e3d538a.jpg

We know from the Qur'an that Allah sent Prophets to all people. The Americas were like a world in of itself, so you had probably a majority of bad people like all other places, sacrificing and eating children, while there were good people who held on to the rope of Allah. Each Prophet and setting has a unique twist to it. In the native American Islam I feel it was connectedness to spirits, ancestors and animals/nature. So they definitely were very strict about respecting boundaries of respect of others and nature. They had strict codes of honor, and actually they still do today. Just look at the protests happening in Canada because of those polluting pipelines being built through their holy lands. They have/had mujahedeen just like us, and very respectable people full of wisdoms.

Listen to this Native American Scholar who talks about end times and religious obligations from Hopi perspective. It's definitely not "do as thou wilt"


The "Do as thou" wilt culture that was so propagated, and still is, by modern media and education, is purely Satanic Culture and Religion. Adam was told you can't do as thou wilt. You can't come close to that tree. The culture of Satan was to tell Adam "no, do as thou wilt". See the difference?

The funny thing is - actually it's not funny at all - is that for some reason all Satanics usually also worship the sun. (I suspect this could be a main reason why they push the heliocentric model that makes us look extremely tiny orbiting the sun like a speck of dust around it as if we go around the Kaaba or something) The way they operate is that they usually let the 'peasants' worship the sun, because that is easy for them to understand and follow without thinking. They see the sun and its benefit and greatness. So now also the Europeans up till recently used to work hard to pay for holidays in the sun. 

Then the higher level priests used to think that the dog star sirius is their God. This star is very important for many reasons. It is the brightest star in the sky, and all calendars and fertility are linked to it. In ancient Egypt it represented ISIS in gemeni (hence the obsession with twin towers), while being a straight line from the belt of Orion. Anyway, so the higher level satanics in certain hierarchies of secret societies, and ancient satanic societies would worship stars this way. And then the highest levels would worship Satan directly. (So in this case the higher level echelons know about the flat Earth, and are on purpose deceiving us 'peasants' under specific orders) Satan lingers in the dark. In the shadows. He sees you from where you don't see him. So only very few initiated people from among his family and soldiers deal with him and his generals directly. Even they are being tricked by the way. So, anyway Alister Crowly fell in that trap and basically went mad! 

And this man is basically the base of todays' mainstream science, culture and religion. 

Edited by 313 Seeker
I just added the words in the bracket about suspicion about heliocentrism being a result of imposed sun worship

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3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

NASA was an ancient civilization? Islamic is monolithic? African is a thing? Indian is a thing? Australian is a thing? etc. etc.

well that picture isn't really made by the most educated. Obviously when they write African, they meant African cosmology, and probably there are hundreds or thousands of variations, because Africa is very big. Actually there is a conspiracy theory that Africa is much bigger than they tell us. Or show us on the modern map.

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3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

All ancient civilizations believed in flat Earth, therefore the Earth must be flat. :einstein:

Did you know that Einstein was a plagiarising fraud according to most people today who look at alternative information without a made-up fixed mind. Look it up. Google Einstein plagiarise. Things are not always how they seem.

But when you have basically all the world religions, from Islam to Babylonia, and everything in-between all over the world, saying the same thing, then it's worth considering.

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3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

yes I read this one before. Those are just a few people who might have controlled the majoriy, like Ma'amun. Where was Imam Reza in all this? The ahl bayt narratives that we have show a flat Earth that resonates with the Qur'an as well. The list of 6 or 7 people who pioneered ball Earth theory among Sunni Muslims I believe, have their opinion, while others had theirs. An article like the one above has purely scientific basis, and not Islamic from Qur'an or ahadeeth. In this case we need to see what flat Earth people have to say about each point. I am bored of this story and don't feel like doing the research. Also I am older than most of you, so you guys have fun and figure it out! 

 

3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

spherical Earth inherited from Hellenistic astronomy.

I think this one tell a lot as well. It's not like they inherited it form Jesus. Moses, Abraham, Gospels, Torah and stuff. It's not like they inherited it from the sayings of ahl bayt or the Qur'an. I think that sentence says it all. For me it weakens it. Also, note that not all Greeks believe in ball Earth. Most of them probably thought it was flat, but that's just a guess.

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24 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Actually there is a conspiracy theory that Africa is much bigger than they tell us. Or show us on the modern map.

Please stop calling everything a conspiracy theory. That's just the Mercator projection.

16 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

The ahl bayt narratives that we have show a flat Earth that resonates with the Qur'an as well.

Why do we have to conform to these supposed narratives?

20 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

It's not like they inherited it from the sayings of ahl bayt or the Qur'an. I think that sentence says it all. For me it weakens it.

If you think that, then entire chunks of the Shia scholarly tradition are weakened. 

E.g. http://en.mobile.wikishia.net/index.php/Islamic_Philosophy

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3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

What do you suggest I call it? Satanic deception? 

How do you propose to map a 3D globe onto a 2D map? (Without distortion in some aspect) I think Galls-Peters projection is better as it's not rooted in colonialism which emphasizes the global north.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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2 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Why do we have to conform to these supposed narratives?

we don't have to conform to Qur'an and ahl bayt, we just have to deal with consequences of our decisions. 

 

3 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

If you think that, then entire chunks of the Shia scholarly tradition are weakened. 

E.g. http://en.mobile.wikishia.net/index.php/Islamic_Philosophy

Well whatever from ancestors is in line with Qur'an and Ahl Bayt is fine. But first comes Qur'an and Ahl Bayt. And then whatever Greeks, Romans, Africans and Asians

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Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

How do you propose to map a 3D globe onto a 2D map?

Actually the "flat Earth" model isn't 2D .. There are 7 layers of Earth and mountains and pilars  and a firmament with lamps and sun and moon spinning around etc etc 

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Just now, 313 Seeker said:

You or I have not gone up in the heavens like Prophet Mohammed did. We have not observed Earth from a distance.

So you're saying the Earth appears round, but in actuality it is flat.

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Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

So you're saying the Earth appears round, but in actuality it is flat.

No I am saying that pictures can be doctored. Also before Photoshop was invented. You and I have not seen Earth for ourselves. And I am sure 100% that what is written in the Qur'an is true, just like the ahl bayt descriptions. That's just me it seems, with a very small minority.

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

@AmirioTheMuzzy you didn't answer me. What do we call deceptions of Satan / Conspiracy theories?

I told you, that particular 2D projection is rooted in Colonialism (in my opinion). Anything you dislike is not a conspiracy or shaitani.

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Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I told you, that particular 2D projection is rooted in Colonialism (in my opinion). Anything you dislike is not a conspiracy or shaitani.

dislike? I don't dislike spherical shapes. I don't get how can a model be 2D when it has layers and firmaments and below it creatures and a huge amount of perspective and depth.

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2 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

And I am sure 100% that what is written in the Qur'an is true

And I am sure 100% that your interpretation of these verse is 100% wrong. Insofar as they have nothing to do with cosmology. God would not have made the verses vague if a cosmological point was being proved. Read these verses in the in-text context, read the verses before and after. Perhaps in some instances, God's using it as an example to not be arrogant.

Note: I don't actually mean 100%, God forbid. I'm just using to make a point.

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9 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

dislike? I don't dislike spherical shapes. I don't get how can a model be 2D when it has layers and firmaments and below it creatures and a huge amount of perspective and depth.

It's meant to be useful for us. Not an accurate depiction. It shows the countries, the oceans, the seas.

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1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

made the verses vague

Actually to me it is not vague. Imagine if you were a clean slate and had no idea about anything from any of the TV movies, schools, media, parents and education. If you read the Qur'an and somebody asked you to map out the Earth, you'd definitely make it flat with 7 layers, and 7 heavens and lamps and firmament and angels flying up and down with God's commands, and the shooting stars targeting Jinn who try to listen, etc.

It's just confusing with what we have been taught. To me anyway, I think the Qur'an, Bible and hadiths are clear on this issue. They are described with multiple words used to describe the same thing, in multiple contexts and no real contradictions. To me anyway. 

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