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starlight

Does Disney believe in flat Earth theory?

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38 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

unless there is clear evidence for that from the Qur'an and ahl bayt.

You must consider all aspects of a Hadith that needs becoming expert in Arabic but you are insisting on your biased view from your misunderstanding the hadiths .

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It’s your misunderstanding not fault in hadith but you are trying to hide your fallacy behind name of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

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Just now, Ashvazdanghe said:

You must consider all aspects of a Hadith that needs becoming expert in Arabic but you are insisting on your biased view from your misunderstanding the hadiths .

Biased? Maybe it's you who is biased, or? Those hadiths are very clear Arabic and if you want you can bring it here and we can go word by word, and ask all the scholars what each word means.

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@313 Seeker  This is the most I could find

https://en.shafaqna.com/60252/shaykh-Yusuf-al-baḥrani-argued-flat-Earth/

Quote

There is substantial evidence that shows many Muslim polymaths and astronomers as early as the 3rd and 4th century believed the Earth was spherical. Al-Baḥrānī, however, is adamant that the Earth is flat. While his argument may sound comical to us today, it nevertheless serves as a good case-study for the various hermeneutical theories out there, as his words give us a glimpse of the mindset of one of the prominent Akhbārī scholars of his time and how significantly his presumptions played a role in interpreting traditions or Qurānic verses.

Quote

I say: [...] Every day of the week or every month of the year has a specifically known time which exists ontologically. Like the traditions that signify the merits of Friday and what should be done during the day and those that speak about its sanctity [...] All of those traditions are apparent in conveying that these times are specific and ontological, and therefore proponents of a spherical-Earth have to say (I.e. are forced to interpret these traditions) the days are (mental) constructs of a group of people, but not another.

And like the traditions that speak about the sun at the zenith and what should be done when the sun reaches the meridian. [...] Based on the view of a spherical-Earth, the sun will remain at the meridian between sunrise to sunset and it would not have any special significance with a specific time because the meridian would be different for every group of people when compared with another group of people.

All in all, the invalidity of this view (I.e. spherical-Earth) after considering the evidence from the narrations and the Prophetic traditions is clearer than what could remain hidden, and as well as due to the consequences of what occurs in this type of an issue (if one were to accept the view of a spherical-Earth). [...]

Source: al-Ḥadāiq al-Nāḍirah fī Aḥkām al-‘Itrah al-Ṭahirah, vol. 13, pg. 266-267

To know more about Yusuf al-Bahrani:
http://en.wikishia.net/view/Yusuf_al-Bahrani
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Bahrani

On the other hand, I also found this:
https://en.shafaqna.com/66663/what-shape-is-the-Earth-2/

Quote

the qur’an makes certain statements that led Muslim scientists to understand long before their European counterparts that the Earth is spherical. when Europe was in the dark ages thinking that the Earth was flat, Muslim students were using globes for studying the Earth in Islamic universities.

since it was not the purpose of the qur’an to teach science, the qur’an did not need to state explicitly that the Earth is spherical in shape (or more precisely, a geoid). but some of what the qur’an says stimulates you to think of the world as a globe. take, for example, the following verse: “have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night?” (qur’an 31:29).

another verse tells us that God coils the day and night around: “He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night” (qur’an 39:5).

the word ‘coils’ in the verse above is a translation of the Arabic verb kawwara which is used in describing the action of coiling a turban around the head. to understand this statement fully, readers of the qur’an had to think of the Earth as a sphere.

to fully appreciate the above two statements in the qur’an, try this experiment at home: you need a flashlight and a globe. take these items into a dark room. using the flashlight to simulate the light of the sun, shine the light upon the globe. notice that only one half of the globe is lighted up. the other half is in darkness. half the world is having day, the other half is having night. now, recall that the Earth is continuously rotating on its axis and will go around completely in twenty four hours. slowly turn the globe around to simulate this rotation. notice that as the globe turns, the day is going around the globe to light up the other half of the world. the night is also going around the globe to give rest to the other half of the world.

the day and night are perpetually coiling around the Earth with some degree of interpenetration. this is exactly how it appears to astronauts during their space flights.

Dr.. bucaille makes the following remark: “this process of perpetual coiling, including the interpenetration of one sector by another, is expressed in the qur’an just as if the concept of the Earth’s roundness had already been conceived at the time—which was obviously not the case.” (the bible, the qur’an and science, p. 165).

how do we explain the presence of this knowledge in the qur’an? this obviously did not reflect the level of learning of the time, but was helpful in stimulating Muslim scientists to conceive of the Earth in its real shape.

Also, you can check this out, it is only somewhat relevant, but pretty interesting nonetheless:
http://www.shiavault.com/books/a-history-of-Muslim-philosophy-volume-2-book-5/chapters/18-chapter-63-mathematics-and-astronomy

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19 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Thanks, as you can see there is not much proof from Qur'an and ahadeeth from one side. I've asked so many people for Islamic sources on this you can't imagine!

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21 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

It's hard for laymen to find original Islamic sources. All I can find are articles.

Yes the only ones I found I had stumbled upon in Al kafi volume 8. I've also asked all hadith enthusiasts on this site to help find more, but it seems nobody is interested.

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14 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well for me it's Qur'an and hadeeths that don't contact Qur'an. 

Just to clarify, is your concern simply with what Islam and classical scholars have said on the issue? Because you don't need Islam to tell you that the Earth isn't flat. That's an observable truth.

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1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Just to clarify, is your concern simply with what Islam and classical scholars have said on the issue? Because you don't need Islam to tell you that the Earth isn't flat. That's an observable truth.

Well scientifically there are two sides of the story too actually. I've looked into that first actually.

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well scientifically there are two sides of the story too actually. I've looked into that first actually.

?  But you can see from space what the Earth looks like too...

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Guest Walt Misery
6 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well scientifically there are two sides of the story too actually. I've looked into that first actually.

 

5 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

?  But you can see from space what the Earth looks like too...

 

5 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

According to the "space agencies" that I don't trust. It would be possible to fake those pictures.

So let's look at the two scientific "sides".

1. The Earth is a globe just like all the other planets and moons that can be observed through a telescope. Multiple pictures have been taken of the Earth as a globe by astronauts, satellites and space probes. It is possible to observe the curvature of the Earth when you see a ship disappear below the horizon or from high altitude flight. You can also see the Earth is a globe when its shadow eclipses the Moon.

2. There is a vast conspiracy involving everyone from the 16th century explorer Magellan, astronomers, geographers, airline pilots, mariners, astronauts and Walt Disney to hide the fact that the Earth is a flat disc. They have been spending all this money and effort for centuries to hide this fact from the public because they want to.....?

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10 minutes ago, Guest Walt Misery said:

2. There is a vast conspiracy involving everyone from the 16th century explorer Magellan, astronomers, geographers, airline pilots, mariners, astronauts and Walt Disney to hide the fact that the Earth is a flat disc. They have been spending all this money and effort for centuries to hide this fact from the public because they want to.....?

Completely agree :hahaha:

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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7 minutes ago, Guest Walt Misery said:

 

 

So let's look at the two scientific "sides".

1. The Earth is a globe just like all the other planets and moons that can be observed through a telescope. Multiple pictures have been taken of the Earth as a globe by astronauts, satellites and space probes. It is possible to observe the curvature of the Earth when you see a ship disappear below the horizon or from high altitude flight. You can also see the Earth is a globe when its shadow eclipses the Moon.

2. There is a vast conspiracy involving everyone from the 16th century explorer Magellan, astronomers, geographers, airline pilots, mariners, astronauts and Walt Disney to hide the fact that the Earth is a flat disc. They have been spending all this money and effort for centuries to hide this fact from the public because they want to.....?

if you want to be serious about it, then you can check the countless youtubes, and read the comments below to see the debate, check the countless websites from both sides, and maybe you can start pressing the following link:

The Flat Earth Society

The reasons behind it can be many, and I have my theories, and others have their theories too. Most people find it hard to believe that such a big conspiracy can exist. That we could be fooled on such a scale.

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

@AmirioTheMuzzy I have observed in conversations with you that you are intelligent. Why would you disagree with the concept of researching an issue, or studying both sides of a debate? That is all I am saying in my previous post. 

Flat Earth theory is observably untrue and absurd in our modern age. Don't let your brain fall out for the sake of debate and research. Not everything needs to be seriously debated. 

Also, we keep having this conversation repeatedly on this site and it amounts to nothing.

 

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1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Flat Earth theory is observably untrue and absurd in our modern age. Don't let your brain fall out for the sake of debate and research. Not everything needs to be seriously debated. 

Also, we keep having this conversation repeatedly on this site and it amounts to nothing.

 

Maybe it amounts to nothing to you, but surely you are aware that others might feel differently about it. In other words, your opinion does not represent everyone. 

And I am not talking about debating actually. I am talking about researching and at least seriously considering the other side of any argument. I think that people who don't know both sides of an argument actually don't have a strong grasp of what they believe. 

It is better to always consider both sides of a story fairly and without mocking. Wouldn't you say?

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

I am talking about researching and at least seriously considering the other side of any argument.

This is a scientific issue. The research is in scientific journals, and academic sources. This isn't an argument, and it isn't a debate either. It's a manufactured "political" debate. There aren't any legitimate scientific alternatives to our current model of Earth that I know of, and there certainly isn't one that promotes a flat Earth.

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@AmirioTheMuzzy

Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

This is a scientific issue. The research is in scientific journals, and academic sources. This isn't an argument, and it isn't a debate either. It's a manufactured "political" debate. There aren't any legitimate scientific alternatives to our current model of Earth that I know of, and there certainly isn't one that promotes a flat Earth.

Ah that is like sunis saying Shia don't have sahih hadiths, and vice versa.

Fine, you want to label all the arguments from one side as "non scientific" (without explaining why), then that kills the debate for sure. Personally I went and challenged every idea I could think of to support the Earth I thought I lived on, and for me I saw more light and truth on one side. It's about truth, and "Science" .. whatever you may classify as such .. is far from being infallible in any way.

I am not interested in proving whether the Earth is flat or spherical. Here I am just discussing the idea of looking at both sides of an argument without mocking or have pre-judgments. 

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

"non scientific" (without explaining why)

Because it isn't backed up by any science... Why do I get the feeling you've never even read an academic journal before, or know what a primary source is (not trying to be mean). Again, you are making it into a manufactured political debate. Look to peer reviewed scholarship. Understand the importance of the scientific method. I don't think you did any research except for reading flat-earther arguments against non- flat earthers (which is a mistake in itself). Anybody can make any contrived argument they want, but it doesn't change what is naturally observed. I urge you to read up on the scientific method. If you're not willing to do that, perhaps some of the users with a science career can enlighten you on the subject.

12 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

I think that people who don't know both sides of an argument actually don't have a strong grasp of what they believe. 

I think the problem is that the evidence is so overwhelming for non-flat earthers, that they don't even know where to begin with flat-earthers. Everything we do in modernity disproves the flat-Earth idea. 

And if you were seriously considering researching the issue, you wouldn't be doing so on ShiaChat of all places. These non-Muslims live for disproving flat-earthers. The proof against it is abundant. Yes other topics can be discussed on this site, but this is primarily a religious forum.

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@starlight I don't know why you created this post in the first place (no offence). You should have predicted what it would devolve into. It's not like we can even get back on topic, it was a joke topic to begin with.

:locked:?

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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9 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

@starlight I don't know why you created this post in the first place (no offence). You should have predicted what it would devolve into. It's not like we can even get back on topic, it was a joke topic to begin with.

:locked:?

Sometimes a little levity is called for in this world.  

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@AmirioTheMuzzy I don't know if I should say it's funny or it's sad that you make all these assumptions that sound kind of disrespectful to me. 

Pity, because I thought you were a smart guy. By the way I have a science degree and worked in nuclear science labs and worked as a science teacher. Just goes to show the level and reliability of your judgment masha Allah! 

23 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

And if you were seriously considering researching the issue, you wouldn't be doing so on ShiaChat of all places.

lol :D researching on shiachat? That is funny actually! I don't know how I can take you seriously after this rant of yours

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17 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

@starlight I don't know why you created this post in the first place (no offence). You should have predicted what it would devolve into. It's not like we can even get back on topic, it was a joke topic to begin with.

:locked:?

doesn't suit your dogmatic mental dictatorship. Some people can't tolerate others having different opinions and beliefs. Discussing existence of Allah, wilaya of Imam Ali, whether Allah has a son, those threads are ok, and please don't disrespect any mushriq or munafiq! But talking about a physical shape of an object! Oh no .. close the thread .. start throwing personal insults! Don't even discuss the issue, just express your opinion without any substance, insult everyone who believes otherwise and ideally also mock. Then try to find comfort in the majority .. 

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3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

the level and reliability of your judgment masha Allah!

Says the one who can't read something blatantly propagandist (wikiIslam) and realize it as so. That site was literally referring to us as apologists, pedophiles, rapists.

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2 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

@313 Seeker So you admit your goal wasn't research but to promote an ideology? You can't say we are dismissing flat-earthers just because we disagree with them.

Admit? Why would I "research" something in a place where there is no information on the topic? Actually discussing flat Earth on ShiaChat  is very boring, because people definitely aren't interested in give-and-take discussions. Neither religiously, nor scientifically. Actually one very educated scholarly member secretly contacted me and we together researched it outside of this site. So that was one success story alhamdulilah. But discussing with people like you? You aren't even discussing. You are just boasting!

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2 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

doesn't suit your dogmatic mental dictatorship. Some people can't tolerate others having different opinions and beliefs.

That's not what I said. This thread wasn't made for you to start promoting flat-Earth in the guise of 'researching into the other's side arguments'.

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1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Says the one who can't read something blatantly propagandist (wikiIslam) and realize it as so. That site was literally referring to us as apologists, pedophiles, rapists.

I linked you to Qur'an verses. Any intelligent person will look at the Qur'an verses and try to prove their points through the verses, and not look beyond that. That is a discussion. Not just labeling me as this, labelling them as that, and labelling yourself as whatever. That is boring. 

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Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

That's not what I said. This thread wasn't made for you to start promoting flat-Earth in the guise of 'researching into the other's side arguments'.

Well your disrespectful tone and words are definitely not called for in any thread. I can equally tell you that this thread wasn't made for promoting ball-earthness and bashing people who believe otherwise, in the guise of imposing your beliefs without encouraging considering both sides of the story.

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6 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Says the one who can't read something blatantly propagandist (wikiIslam) and realize it as so. That site was literally referring to us as apologists, pedophiles, rapists.

And in addition I linked you to a thread that is my thread on the topic. Why didn't you argue with me there like an intelligent person and bring up whatever point you have?

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