Viruses & Vaccinations

[justAnothermuslim]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:06 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Here's an controversial answer: Probably not, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded: يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ إِن جَآءَكُمْ فَاسِقٌۢ بِنَبَإٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوٓا۟ أَن تُصِيبُوا۟ قَوْمًۢا بِجَهَـٰلَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا۟ عَلَىٰ مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَـٰدِمِينَ

O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful. (49:6)

Not only is their critical thinking is atrocious and leaving much to be desired,

https://archive.org/details/dr-jessica-rose

A question for you, my dear bro. 

What’s your first reaction on seeing the above chart?

A crazy ploy from a conspiracy theorist? Or the urge to investigate further to ascertain it’s truthfulness as per the Quran verse you’ve quoted?

On 11/12/2021 at 9:06 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

they are disobeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and being willfully ignorant

Now tell me, who’s disobeying who in this particular instance?

On 11/12/2021 at 9:06 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

They don't know where exactly the theories come from 

It’s not a theory. It’s a study of VAERSs data from a viral immunologist and a biologist with the name Dr Jessica Rose.

On 11/12/2021 at 9:06 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

but still put the idol of QAnon in their heart anyway. They don't give a hoot wherever you have family are that vulnerable to COVID-19, vaccines are a threat to their arrogant and stupid beliefs. You seen how angry and abusive they get if you consider or get the vaccine, did you ever wonder why? It's because deep down inside in their conscience, they know that they are wrong and don't care about the truth, they only care about themselves. If everyone gets vaccinated, they will look stupid. So they protect their ego by connecting the vaccines with NWO or saying you are brain-washed when you give them undeniable facts or get vaccinated yourself. The QAnon conspiracy theories have divided families, do they care? Speaking and gauging from personal experience, the answer seems to be no, not really. Servering of family ties doesn't seem to affect them as badly as the idea that they might be wrong. Truly one of the most arrogant mindsets to have, not too dissimilar to Iblees (la)

Aahhh...my way or the highway.

Islam teaches “be not disunited”. Now we’re heading into 3 classes: the elites, the vaccinated dan the unvaccinated.

On 11/12/2021 at 9:06 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Let me ask you this, Soroush, would you take religious advice from a person who trusts an unknown fasiq over Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Taking a vaccine or not taking a vaccine is your personal choice, nothing to do with disobedience to Allah or obedience to a fasiq.

I’’ve read some people who believe the benefits of covid-19 vaccines far outweigh their risks, use the verse below to justify their taking up the vaccine.

[Shakir 2:195] And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good.

Those who believe the risks of taking the vaccines far outweigh their benefits, use the same verse to justify their positions.

Interesting, ain’t it?

 

[Gaius I. Caesar]

1 hour ago, justAnothermuslim said:

A question for you, my dear bro. 

What’s your first reaction on seeing the above chart?

My intial reaction is that it is data, whether it is truthful or not, depends on the context and its contents. It is probably being misinterpreted but I won't know certain I investigate it. If I was an mindless anti-vaxxer, I'd probably go on an incoherent screed about NWO or aliens or accuse you being a liberal and waste your time. This is far more legit than say some nonsense on Facebook/YouTube. That said, legit doesn't always mean that it is correct, it just means there is evidence or data backing the claim.

1 hour ago, justAnothermuslim said:

It’s not a theory. It’s a study of VAERSs data from a viral immunologist and a biologist with the name Dr Jessica Rose.

Right, and studies come from what exactly? Hypotheses and theories. Speaking of Dr. Jessica Rose, I could not any other studies other than the study you sent me. I did however find something particularly interesting about the study:

Quote

The website credits the findings to Jessica Rose, who was a postdoctoral researcher in biology at the Israel Institute of Technology from 2016-20, according to her resume posted online. She is now a self-described independent researcher.

The blog article cites a paper titled: “Estimating the number of COVID vaccine deaths in America”, which Rose co-authored alongside Mathew Crawford, a statistician. Both appear to be members of a group questioning COVID-19 vaccines .

The document itself states that it used a “simple analysis” of data from the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) – not an in-depth study as the article in question suggests.

VAERS, managed by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), documents suspected reactions to COVID-19 vaccines to detect possible safety issues.

Of more than 390 million doses of COVID-19 shots administered in the U.S. up to Sept. 27, VAERS received 8,164 reports of death (0.0021%) among people who were vaccinated. Healthcare providers are required to report any death after vaccination to VAERS even if there is no indication it was caused by the vaccine, and reported incidents are not evidence of a causal link, according to CDC guidance. It says reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare 

First of all, it looks like Dr. Rose had a bias which affected the way the study was done and how the data was represented; The analysis was quite simplified and sparse, she didn't go in-depth at all. When I read the study, it felt incomplete and now I know why. Secondly, as I highlighted, healthcare is "required to report any death after vaccination to VAERS even if there is no indication it was caused by the vaccine..."  In fact, this study was marred by the fact there was a bias and the flawed logic of  causation equals correlation . For example, the study didn't determine how many of the 8,164 cases had pre-existing health conditions or even had COVID-19 prior to being vaccinated. All you're given is a chart showing 521,667 vaccines produced for 2021 with 7662 deaths for all vaccines combined, strange. I thought this study was only for deaths caused by COVID-19. Going by their data, 68 deaths can be attributed to all vaccines combined,  yet Dr. Rose never measured or determined how many of those 68 deaths were from the COVID-19 vaccine alone, in a study about the risks of COVID-19 vaccine. Interesting isn't it? 

She doesn't tell you anything other than “There’s an over 1000% increase in the total number of adverse events for 2021 and we are not done with 2021,", which by the way she doesn't prove and the fact she doesn't like vaccines. Very scientific study, not.

3 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

Now we’re heading into 3 classes: the elites, the vaccinated dan the unvaccinated.

Covid-19 doesn't care what class it's victims are. If you don't get a vaccine, you will have a very rough experience and possibly die in a very unpleasant manner.

[iCenozoic]

Regarding VAERS reporting, actually if you go back a couple more years to 2009, there was a massive spike in reporting alongside the flu epidemic.

I've added a couple screenshots for reference. But basically, a year after the flu epidemic, people stopped reporting issues, all the while vaccination rates remained high, demonstrating that people who are making reports to the VAERS system were not actually reporting vaccine issues. But rather they were reporting issues and merely had recently been vaccinated and thus falsely correlated the two without demonstrating causation.

 

 

VAERS data alone just doesn't tell us much. It can be used to generate hypotheses, but it alone doesn't actually take into account causation.

I decided to eat carrots for breakfast this morning, a cat ran across the street, but it would be wrong for me to assume that me eating carrots caused the cat to run across the street.

With VEARS data, some people get vaccinated and some of those same people have medical issues, but it would be wrong, without investigation, to assume that vaccines caused those medical issues.

Edited November 15, 2021 by iCenozoic

[justAnothermuslim]

On 11/15/2021 at 2:25 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

My intial reaction is that it is data, whether it is truthful or not, depends on the context and its contents. It is probably being misinterpreted but I won't know certain I investigate it. If I was an mindless anti-vaxxer, I'd probably go on an incoherent screed about NWO or aliens or accuse you being a liberal and waste your time. This is far more legit than say some nonsense on Facebook/YouTube. That said, legit doesn't always mean that it is correct, it just means there is evidence or data backing the claim.

Right, and studies come from what exactly? Hypotheses and theories. Speaking of Dr. Jessica Rose, I could not any other studies other than the study you sent me. I did however find something particularly interesting about the study:

First of all, it looks like Dr. Rose had a bias which affected the way the study was done and how the data was represented; The analysis was quite simplified and sparse, she didn't go in-depth at all. When I read the study, it felt incomplete and now I know why. Secondly, as I highlighted, healthcare is "required to report any death after vaccination to VAERS even if there is no indication it was caused by the vaccine..."  In fact, this study was marred by the fact there was a bias and the flawed logic of  causation equals correlation . For example, the study didn't determine how many of the 8,164 cases had pre-existing health conditions or even had COVID-19 prior to being vaccinated. All you're given is a chart showing 521,667 vaccines produced for 2021 with 7662 deaths for all vaccines combined, strange. I thought this study was only for deaths caused by COVID-19. Going by their data, 68 deaths can be attributed to all vaccines combined,  yet Dr. Rose never measured or determined how many of those 68 deaths were from the COVID-19 vaccine alone, in a study about the risks of COVID-19 vaccine. Interesting isn't it? 

She doesn't tell you anything other than “There’s an over 1000% increase in the total number of adverse events for 2021 and we are not done with 2021,", which by the way she doesn't prove and the fact she doesn't like vaccines. Very scientific study, not.

Covid-19 doesn't care what class it's victims are. If you don't get a vaccine, you will have a very rough experience and possibly die in a very unpleasant manner.

I quoted the link, just to prove the chart really exists and not my own concoction.

According to one Dr Peter Mc Cullough, previously if there happened to be 20 to 50 deaths following a vaccine roll-out, the program was put to a stop.

 

I understand how you have come to fear the virus so much and have so much faith in the vaccines. I don’t blame you.

You just do what you’ve to do, as long as you’re happy and comfortable with it.

As for me, vaxxed or unvaxxed, you all are my bros in religion/humanity.

If it's ok with you, my advice is: ”Be an ornament and not a disgrace to your Imams (as)”.

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by justAnothermuslim

[Gaius I. Caesar]

2 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

I understand how you have come to fear the virus so much and have so much faith in the vaccines. I don’t blame you.

It doesn't come from a place of fear, I would advise to follow the Imams' words (عليه السلام) yourself, instead of whatever this is supposed to be or mean. You don't want the vaccine, don't take it then. However, I will not tolerate misleading information about the vaccine.

2 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

According to one Dr Peter Mc Cullough, previously if there happened to be 20 to 50 deaths following a vaccine roll-out, the program was put to a stop.

Dr. Peter McCullough is brought by the Republican Party, he is recorded as saying that "People under 50 who fundamentally have no health risks, there’s no scientific rationale for them to ever become vaccinated.", which by the way is completely false, there are many people under 50, myself included, who have pre-existing conditions and are more vulnerable to COVID-19. 

I'll leave you a link for you to read: https://factcheck.afp.com/us-cardiologist-makes-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccination

[slavelight]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:38 PM, iCenozoic said:

With VEARS data, some people get vaccinated and some of those same people have medical issues, but it would be wrong, without investigation, to assume that vaccines caused those medical issues.

What about the people who died with covid and have comorbities? why don't you have the same view on covid death data as you have on VAERS data.

14 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

However, I will not tolerate misleading information about the vaccine.

What's the misleading part? We have shared sources and so have you. What makes you think that your are more right. You have scientists on your side, so does the other group who are against all these interventions. What makes you think that your scientist are more correct? is it because of the censorship and defamation from the media against those who dare to speak out?

[iCenozoic]

30 minutes ago, slavelight said:

What about the people who died with covid and have comorbities? why don't you have the same view on covid death data as you have on VAERS data.

 

I don't know what you mean in your first paragraph. 

All people who die of covid die with comorbidities. Covid-19 doesn't kill people on its own. For example, people might die of a heart attack because of covid-19, or people might die of pneumonia because of covid-19. And so the comorbidities would be heart attack and pneumonia. Or some kind of heart condition or something similar. 

 

Consider the following (annual deaths in the United States of all causes, including things like car accidents and heart attacks and diabetes etc.):

2015 - 2.69 Million deaths

2016 - 2.73 (increase of 40,000 from prior year)

2017 - 2.81(increase of 80,000 from prior year)

2018 - 2.84 (increase of 30,000 from prior year)

2019 - 2.85 (increase of 10,000 from prior year)

2020 - 3.40 (increase of 0.55 or 550,000 from prior year).

 

All of the people, of that 550,000 increase, dies with some kind of co morbidity. Oftentimes it would be some kind of pneumonia, or a heart attack.

But regardless of if pneumonia is the cause of death, that's still 550,000 people that would not have died of pneumonia had they not contracted the disease of COVID-19. And thus we blame Covid-19.

To be fair, we could argue that maybe 100k of that 550k died of natural aging, but it's obvious that when you have 4 years straight with under 100k annual increase, and then you jump to 550k fatalities above background levels, that Covid-19 is to blame.

Not only that, but of that 550,000, The number of deaths has surged simultaneously with cases of COVID-19 in the United States. Meaning that there is a direct correlation between the two. Which further demonstrates that covid-19 is to blame.

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by iCenozoic

[Gaius I. Caesar]

1 hour ago, slavelight said:

What's the misleading part? We have shared sources and so have you. What makes you think that your are more right. You have scientists on your side, so does the other group who are against all these interventions. What makes you think that your scientist are more correct?

The misleading part is you quoting people like Dr. Jessica Rose and Peter McCullough who clearly have some ulterior motives  and are willing to lie about the reality of this pandemic. Accepting people who confirm your suspicions about a subject is not research but blind following.  What makes you think you know more about the COVID-19 vaccine than a immunologist? On what basis do you distrust the scienists involved with Pfizer or Moderna? 

 Look at this tweet from Sayed Saleh Qazwini, and realize a few scary anecdotes about the vaccine are not a valid reason to not take it; Anecdotes are not evidence, you are far more likely to die without a vaccine than getting the vaccine. That is a proven fact. No, the vaccine isn't a cure but it is a protection from a deadly experience with COVID-19. There's a lot of nonsense on the Internet in regards to the vaccine; Islam is a religion of reason and truth, it encourages critical thinking. The two links you gave me were alarmist and misconstruting the dangers of vaccines and exaggerating the effectiveness of the human immune system.  

In fact, even Ayatullah Sistani said:

Quote

1. Those who fear infection from touching or mingling with others because they may be harmed greatly, even if its not death, must avoid doing so. Unless they are able to take the necessary precautions, such as sterilization, using medical face masks and gloves to the point that they are content that they will not contract the illness. However, if one does not adhere to the preceding instructions and as a result contracts the illness then they will not be excused from a religious standpoint.
2. It is not permissible for such a person to be around others such that there is a probability that the person is contagious and will infect them. If he was to do so, causing those who do not know of his state of health to be infected then he will be held religiously liable for any harm that he caused that person, and if that they were to die from the illness then it is obligatory upon him to pay the diyah (religious fine).
3. Yes, it is mandatory for him to do so, taking into account the directions of the respective authorities.
4. It is acceptable to spend from the portion of Sabeel'llah from the Zakat and from the Sahm (portion) of the Imam (a) in the case of the Khums while taking into account the religious criteria.
5. We advise the gracious believers (may Allah increase their status) to:
a. Turn to Allah Almighty and ask Him to push away this tribulation, increase doing righteous deeds such as giving charity to the poor, helping the weak, reciting the Holy Qur'an, and the supplications of the Prophet (s) and his immaculate Holy Household (a).
b. Take precautions that are proportionate to the size of this pandemic without panic and distress. Take all of the necessary preventative precautions and treatment based on what is determined by the medical experts while staying away from unscientific methods.

c.Work hard to educate others of the dangers of belittling the dangers of this virus and encourage them to adhere to and not ignore the directions of the authorities on this matter.
d. Help the families that have been harmed as a result of the the current situation because their livelihoods have been effected by the stoppage of work and the restrictions on people's movement.
f. Take care of those infected no matter their affiliations in religion or sect, with the goal of easing their burden and supporting them in their needs.

https://www.sistani.org/english/archive/26405/

[slavelight]

4 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

All people who die of covid die with comorbidities. Covid-19 doesn't kill people on its own. For example, people might die of a heart attack because of covid-19, or people might die of pneumonia because of covid-19. And so the comorbidities would be heart attack and pneumonia. Or some kind of heart condition or something similar. 

If they have comorbidities then why is it listed as covid death? This is my issue, that the data can't be trusted. Even normal flu could have killed them, but still every death as long as they are covid infected is listed as covid death. Even though the testing for the virus is not 100% accurate, in some cases edibles tested positive. So you can't say with confidence that covid is to be blamed for the major increase in deaths, if the death data are correct.

 

2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

The misleading part is you quoting people like Dr. Jessica Rose and Peter McCullough who clearly have some ulterior motives  and are willing to lie about the reality of this pandemic. Accepting people who confirm your suspicions about a subject is not research but blind following.  What makes you think you know more about the COVID-19 vaccine than a immunologist? On what basis do you distrust the scienists involved with Pfizer or Moderna? 

I don't remember quoting those. Maybe I did in some pages earlier or maybe you are mistaking me for someone else.

As for the ulterior motives, you don't think pharma have $$ motives? You don't think the congress who owns stocks in these sectors don't have ulterior motives? Don't you see the conflict of interest?

2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

What makes you think you know more about the COVID-19 vaccine than a immunologist? On what basis do you distrust the scienists involved with Pfizer or Moderna? 

I have never claimed that i know more. I have just provided sources from other experts and scientist who know more than both of us.

On what basis do you distrust  ex employees from pfizer & moderna or the thousands of other scientist who are speaking out against the mandates and coercion.

2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 Look at this tweet from Sayed Saleh Qazwini

Yes islam advocates for the use of reason. 2 years has passed since the start of the pandemic, I am not vaccinated, nothing has happened to me. Why would I vaccinate now? Am I danger to others? how can I be danger to others when they are vaccinated? Are you aware of that even vaccinated people does spread to each other, and the numbers are not small.

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

There's a lot of nonsense on the Internet in regards to the vaccine; Islam is a religion of reason and truth, it encourages critical thinking.

I 100% agree.

 

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

The two links you gave me were alarmist and misconstruting the dangers of vaccines and exaggerating the effectiveness of the human immune system. 

I don't know which links you are talking about.

 

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

It is not permissible for such a person to be around others such that there is a probability that the person is contagious and will infect them. If he was to do so, causing those who do not know of his state of health to be infected then he will be held religiously liable for any harm that he caused that person, and if that they were to die from the illness then it is obligatory upon him to pay the diyah (religious fine).

Why do you have to use religious ruling for this? Is common sense not enough?

 

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Take precautions that are proportionate to the size of this pandemic without panic and distress. Take all of the necessary preventative precautions and treatment based on what is determined by the medical experts while staying away from unscientific methods.

This doesn't say anything. This's just a general answer to the public from the office. It doesn't say take vaccine.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

2 hours ago, slavelight said:

Why would I vaccinate now? Am I danger to others? how can I be danger to others when they are vaccinated?

You are not a danger to me, a vaccinated person, but as long as you are unvaccinated, you are a danger to other unvaccinated people and yourself.  It is haram to infect people if they don't know the state of your health;  If they die, you will pay the diyah and be held accountable for their deaths. I shouldn't have to quote Ayatullah Sistani to make myself clear on what should be common sense to you. It's an health issue, not a fiqhi issue. You cannot use Islam to justify not getting vaccinated, it is not a valid excuse. Two years is too long of a wait, you shouldn't endanger yourself.

2 hours ago, slavelight said:

On what basis do you distrust  ex employees from pfizer & moderna or the thousands of other scientist who are speaking out against the mandates and coercion.

On the basis that they make unfounded claims about the vaccines, "mandates" and "coercion" that contradict the reality and statistics of the pandemic. Anecdotes are not evidence nor are coincidences "cause and effect". Big pharma is scum, but anti-vax activists are bigger scum, especially since they lie and  prey on the fears of gullible people; They play with people's emotions and mix facts with lies to conceal the truth. If there is anything about the Internet I truly dislike, it is this anti-science conpiracy nonsense. Truth mixed with falsehold is still falsehood.

2 hours ago, slavelight said:

Why do you have to use religious ruling for this? Is common sense not enough?

Re-read the first part of my comment. Common sense should dictate that you should not blindly accept conspiracy theories on the Internet or refuse a vaccine, unless you have a legimate medical reason not to take the vaccine.

2 hours ago, slavelight said:

This doesn't say anything. This's just a general answer to the public from the office. It doesn't say take vaccine.

Don't lie to me, that is exactly what is meant by taking preventive measures and staying away from unscientific methods (e.g. getting a vaccine and being cautious of conspiracy theories on the Internet.)

2 hours ago, slavelight said:

I 100% agree.

If you agree with me, why are you arguing with me about the safety and effectiveness of vaccinations and the COVID-19 vaccine in particular?  If you have doubts, you can always ask your doctor about the safety of vaccines. Disagreeing with medical experts for the sake of disagreeing is not a good use of critical thinking.

2 hours ago, slavelight said:

I don't know which links you are talking about.

 These, remember?: https://archive.org/details/dr-jessica-rose and https://michaelsavage.com/top-doctor-warns-about-covid-vaccine/

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Gaius I. Caesar

[iCenozoic]

4 hours ago, slavelight said:

If they have comorbidities then why is it listed as covid death? .

Because covid-19 caused the comorbidity to kill the individual.

For example, let's say in an average year 10 people die of pneumonia. Then covid-19 comes around, exacerbates pneumonia, and results in 100 pneumonia deaths. Even though pneumonia is what the person dies of, covid-19 is ultimately responsible for breaking down the individuals immune system, thereby causing the person to succumb to something that otherwise would have never happened.

Consider the following:

2015 - 2.69 Million US deaths

2016 - 2.73 (increase of 40,000 from prior year)

2017 - 2.81(increase of 80,000 from prior year)

2018 - 2.84 (increase of 30,000 from prior year)

2019 - 2.85 (increase of 10,000 from prior year)

2020 - 3.40 (increase of 0.55 or 550,000 from prior year).

 

All 550,000 (minus maybe 50,000 for aging) people died from some comorbidity, some by heart failure, some pneumonia etc. But these comorbidities in an average normal year would never cause such a vast amount of deaths. Not even close. But when the pandemic began, covid-19 caused people to succumb to these conditions and therefore covid-19 takes the blame.

Covid-19 alone is never a cause of death. Covid-19 always works in conjunction with comorbidities. But the comorbidities cannot be considered the blame because in a normal year, 550,000 people would have never died. 

 

The flu has never been known to kill 550,000 people in a single year for example. So we know that the flu is not to blame despite the fact that many have the flu as a covid-19 comorbidity.

Edited November 18, 2021 by iCenozoic

[iCenozoic]

11 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Because covid-19 caused the comorbidity to kill the individual.

For example, let's say in an average year 10 people die of pneumonia. Then covid-19 comes around, exacerbates pneumonia, and results in 100 pneumonia deaths. Even though pneumonia is what the person dies of, covid-19 is ultimately responsible for breaking down the individuals immune system, thereby causing the person to succumb to something that otherwise would have never happened.

Consider the following:

2015 - 2.69 Million US deaths

2016 - 2.73 (increase of 40,000 from prior year)

2017 - 2.81(increase of 80,000 from prior year)

2018 - 2.84 (increase of 30,000 from prior year)

2019 - 2.85 (increase of 10,000 from prior year)

2020 - 3.40 (increase of 0.55 or 550,000 from prior year).

 

All 550,000 people died from some comorbidity, some by heart failure, some pneumonia etc. But these comorbidities in an average normal year would never cause such a vast amount of deaths. Not even close. But when the pandemic began, covid-19 caused people to succumb to these conditions and therefore covid-19 takes the blame.

Covid-19 alone is never a cause of death. Covid-19 always works in conjunction with comorbidities. But the comorbidities cannot be considered the blame because in a normal year, 550,000 people would have never died. 

 

The flu has never been known to kill 550,000 people in a single year for example. So we know that the flu is not to blame despite the fact that many have the flu as a covid-19 comorbidity.

And I can further simplify it like this. We know that comorbidities are not to blame because no comorbidity would ever cause half a million deaths above background levels in a single year.

[slavelight]

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You are not a danger to me, a vaccinated person, but as long as you are unvaccinated, you are a danger to other unvaccinated people and yourself.

How am I danger to other people when during these 2 years nothing has happened to me. Why would I suddenly be endangering other people now.

Do you think you being vaccinated is not endangering other people? Did you not see the many links that says being vaccinated doesn't stop the spread.

 

 

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You cannot use Islam to justify not getting vaccinated, it is not a valid excuse. Two years is too long of a wait, you shouldn't endanger yourself.

I don't. It's common sense to me if I don't get sick for 2 years, why world would I jeopardize my health now. So many people have been injured by the vaccine, people who had no prior issues. So tell me why would I jepordize my health now, when nothing happened for 2 years.

 

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Don't lie to me, that is exactly what is meant by taking preventive measures and staying away from unscientific methods (e.g. getting a vaccine and being cautious of conspiracy theories on the Internet.)

Then why didn't the office simple say to take the vaccine?

 

 

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

If you agree with me

8 hours ago, slavelight said:

There's a lot of nonsense on the Internet in regards to the vaccine; Islam is a religion of reason and truth, it encourages critical thinking.

I agree with ^

 

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

These, remember?: https://archive.org/details/dr-jessica-rose and https://michaelsavage.com/top-doctor-warns-about-covid-vaccine/

No, I don't remember. Nor do I have time to go through them.

[slavelight]

4 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Because covid-19 caused the comorbidity to kill the individual.

I am talking about pre-existing comorbidities.

[iCenozoic]

3 hours ago, slavelight said:

I am talking about pre-existing comorbidities.

Same deal. Take for example, a heart condition that causes a heart attack. X number of people die every year due to some form of heart failure due to pre existing conditions. Covid began, that average annual number of heart failure deaths skyrocketed. 

As noted above, nobody dies just of Covid-19. But rather Covid-19 arrived and all of a sudden hundreds of thousands of people above the average annual number began dying. Covid essentially amplified the risk of dying due to underlying conditions.

And I just want to be clear:

Consider the following:

 

2015 - 2.69 Million deaths

2016 - 2.73 (increase of 40,000 from prior year)

2017 - 2.81(increase of 80,000 from prior year)

2018 - 2.84 (increase of 30,000 from prior year)

2019 - 2.85 (increase of 10,000 from prior year)

2020 - 3.40 (increase of 0.55 or 550,000 from prior year).

Diabetes is a pre existing condition, but diabetes would never kill half a million additional people for no apparent reason. It wasn't pre existing conditions that caused this, rather it was Covid that causes this extra half million people, in conjunction with pre existing conditions.

The same logic applies across the table.

And to clarify, one simple and easy way to understand that pre existing conditions are not to blame, is that never in the history pre existing conditions, had such an exceedingly high quantity of deaths occurred.

Not only that, but this exceedingly high quantity of deaths also occurred in multiple waves. Waves that if you live in America, of course in March, the late summer then again in the winter.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

10 hours ago, slavelight said:

No, I don't remember. Nor do I have time to go through them.

I don't believe that for a second. You do remember, these were the sources that you sent me and made me go through them, and I told you that they aren't entirely truthful, in fact they are openly lying about the pandemic. What is the point of sending me sources to back your claim, if you aren't willing to go through them yourself?

10 hours ago, slavelight said:

Then why didn't the office simple say to take the vaccine?

It did, getting the vaccine is one of preventive measures. You can re-read it again. It's not hard.

[slavelight]

48 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I don't believe that for a second. You do remember, these were the sources that you sent me and made me go through them, and I told you that they aren't entirely truthful, in fact they are openly lying about the pandemic. What is the point of sending me sources to back your claim, if you aren't willing to go through them yourself?

I don't care what you believe. What's it for me lie about not remembering. If I did provide those sources, I am sure you can find those in this thread right? If you do find them, let me know and perhaps I will check them out and provide the reason for why I posted them here, If I did do so. No need to reply back unless you find my post with those 2 links. And stop with your accusations. Yet you are calling me conspiracy theorist....

 

48 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

It did, getting the vaccine is one of preventive measures. You can re-read it again. It's not hard.

No it didn't. Where did the office say ´take the vaccine´? Taking preventive measures doesn't mean taking the vaccine. If it did, why didn't they simply say so?

You have to understand that the muslim populations are very anxious & obedient compared to other races. They were seeking answers from the office of their high leaders on what measures to take while at the same time being bombarded with mainstream media of covid19. The muslim population being highly anxious and obedient, you can clearly understand that the office had no choice but to come with a general answer.

The office don't want to take responsibility neither from the vaccine damages or from covid damages. So they gave a very general answer. They neither mentioned to take the vaccine nor that you shouldn't. That's up to the individual. But if you want to read their statement as ´take the vaccine´, well I got some good news for you fella, before the end of 2022 you probably will have to take minimum 5 jabs to have the same rights as you had pre pandemic.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

8 hours ago, slavelight said:

I don't care what you believe. What's it for me lie about not remembering. If I did provide those sources, I am sure you can find those in this thread right? If you do find them, let me know and perhaps I will check them out and provide the reason for why I posted them here, If I did do so.

 I don't care about what you believe either. You haven't once made a valid point about why we need be wary of taking the COVID-19 vaccine. No need for you to find your own sources, I did it for you:

On 11/14/2021 at 8:53 PM, justAnothermuslim said:

https://archive.org/details/dr-jessica-rose

A question for you, my dear bro. 

What’s your first reaction on seeing the above chart?

A crazy ploy from a conspiracy theorist? Or the urge to investigate further to ascertain it’s truthfulness as per the Quran verse you’ve quoted?

 

On 11/16/2021 at 7:09 PM, justAnothermuslim said:

 I quoted the link, just to prove the chart really exists and not my own concoction.

According to one Dr Peter Mc Cullough, previously if there happened to be 20 to 50 deaths following a vaccine roll-out, the program was put to a stop.

 

^There's no reason for you to lie to me nor is there any reason why you shouldn't able to remember what you posted two to four days ago.  I am getting impatient with you.

8 hours ago, slavelight said:

You have to understand that the muslim populations are very anxious & obedient compared to other races. They were seeking answers from the office of their high leaders on what measures to take while at the same time being bombarded with mainstream media of covid19. The muslim population being highly anxious and obedient, you can clearly understand that the office had no choice but to come with a general answer.

I am going to stop you right here for a moment: What is this nonsense about Muslims being a more obedient and anxious "race"?, we are not the Jews. We are not a race, any man or woman can accept Islam, last time I checked, I did not suddenly become an Arab, Iranian or Pakistani when I converted to Islam.  Secondly I think the anxiety and stress level has been about the same for all communities in this pandemic. We are all on edge. Thirdly, it is the office's responsibility to guide us in legal matters in regards to Islam. As I explained to you earlier, preventive measures include wearing masks, getting the vaccine and Ayatullah Sistani also said that it is also mandatory for you to quarantine when you travel. These are very specific answers from an Ayatullah.

8 hours ago, slavelight said:

well I got some good news for you fella, before the end of 2022 you probably will have to take minimum 5 jabs to have the same rights as you had pre pandemic.

Not a problem for me, pal, I'm already vaccinated. Might be a problem for you though if you decide to go on ziyarah next year. Why not get vaccinated now and save yourself the hassle, instead of crying in 2022 about how you have no rights because you didn't get vaccinated. Anyway, do you have a source for this claim as well?

[slavelight]

12 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I don't care about what you believe either. You haven't once made a valid point about why we need be wary of taking the COVID-19 vaccine. No need for you to find your own sources, I did it for you:

12 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

^There's no reason for you to lie to me nor is there any reason why you shouldn't able to remember what you posted two to four days ago.  I am getting impatient with you.

I didn't lie, nor had any reason to lie.

You were not being truthful. You quoted another member and accused me of lying when I say I didn't remember making those posts. You should have checked who made the post before accusing me of something I didn't do.

12 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I am going to stop you right here for a moment: What is this nonsense about Muslims being a more obedient and anxious "race"?, we are not the Jews. We are not a race, any man or woman can accept Islam, last time I checked, I did not suddenly become an Arab, Iranian or Pakistani when I converted to Islam.  Secondly I think the anxiety and stress level has been about the same for all communities in this pandemic. We are all on edge.

When I said muslims I targeted the islamic countries. You got my point what I meant. The muslim countries are generally more obedient and anxious compared to the western countries.

 

12 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Thirdly, it is the office's responsibility to guide us in legal matters in regards to Islam. As I explained to you earlier, preventive measures include wearing masks, getting the vaccine and Ayatullah Sistani also said that it is also mandatory for you to quarantine when you travel. These are very specific answers from an Ayatullah.

You can interpret their statement however you want. But don't make your interpretation universal, because it isn't. As said before, they gave a general statement without saying to take the vaccine or not to take it. They did so because they most likely don't want liability and felt forced to release a statement because the public expected a statement from them. That's why in the statement it says

On 11/17/2021 at 8:55 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Take precautions that are proportionate to the size of this pandemic without panic and distress. Take all of the necessary preventative precautions and treatment based on what is determined by the medical experts while staying away from unscientific methods.

There are thousands of medical experts against vaccines who have spoken out, likewise there are thousands of medical experts that commend the vaccine. A general statement.

12 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Not a problem for me, pal, I'm already vaccinated. Might be a problem for you though if you decide to go on ziyarah next year. Why not get vaccinated now and save yourself the hassle, instead of crying in 2022 about how you have no rights because you didn't get vaccinated. Anyway, do you have a source for this claim as well?

What's the point of going to ziyarah when one is obedient to the fasiqs who have no empathy for human lives & gradually give them more authority.

[justAnothermuslim]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:00 AM, slavelight said:

I don't remember quoting those.

It was mine. Sorry for the inconvenience caused.

[iCenozoic]

Looks around to see no responses to his data*

[slavelight]

7 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Looks around to see no responses to his data*

Your data if true say only that more people died in 2020. It doesn't say more than that. Because the increase of death happened during the pandemic doesnt mean that it was due to the pandemic. There are millions of other ways to die and also millions of other reasons that can explain the jumps in death rate.

My issue here is not to talk about the death rates, but rather the harms vs the benefits of the soon to be mandatory vaccine and the agenda behind it & the restrictions we are observing around the world.

[iCenozoic]

5 hours ago, slavelight said:

Your data if true say only that more people died in 2020. It doesn't say more than that. Because the increase of death happened during the pandemic doesnt mean that it was due to the pandemic. There are millions of other ways to die and also millions of other reasons that can explain the jumps in death rate.

My issue here is not to talk about the death rates, but rather the harms vs the benefits of the soon to be mandatory vaccine and the agenda behind it & the restrictions we are observing around the world.

Yea sure, it's possible that China dropped a nuclear bomb on a city killing half a million additional people. But obviously there isn't any evidence for that.

Consider the following:

 

2015 - 2.69 Million deaths in the US.

2016 - 2.73 (increase of 40,000 from prior year)

2017 - 2.81(increase of 80,000 from prior year)

2018 - 2.84 (increase of 30,000 from prior year)

2019 - 2.85 (increase of 10,000 from prior year)

2020 - 3.40 (increase of 0.55 or 550,000 from prior year).

It's possible that McDonald's changed their recipe and killed off half a million people. But the truth is that there is no evidence for this idea either.

The majority of deaths have also been reported at the exact times in which covid cases went up, in March, late summer, then into November as well.

In truth, the only logical explanation for this is that covid-19 is causing people to die of comorbidities and preexisting conditions at rates never seen before in the history of the world.

And once we acknowledge that covid-19 killed half a million people in 2020 in the US, then we can use this understanding to investigate further topics.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by iCenozoic

[slavelight]

@iCenozoic

9 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

And once we acknowledge that covid-19 killed half a million people in 2020 in the US, then we can use this understanding to investigate further topics.

But we don't even know if it's true. And even if it's true, so what? I am not here to discuss how many people died 2020 compared to previous years. You keep replying with the same data again and again. Do you want me to aknowledge the data? I don't have any issue doing so.

 

 

Don't you think that if covid19 was so deadly that the entire world would vaccinate themselves, and that there would be no need to coercion. Is this what we are seeing? no. We are seeing the opposite, mandatory and coercion being used. That enough tells me something is wrong. Imagine a virus so deadly that the authorities have to coerce people into taking the jab...

[iCenozoic]

3 hours ago, slavelight said:

@iCenozoic

But we don't even know if it's true. And even if it's true, so what? I am not here to discuss how many people died 2020 compared to previous years. You keep replying with the same data again and again. Do you want me to aknowledge the data? I don't have any issue doing so.

Great, we are making progress. The data is important because it highlights how deadly the virus is. Understanding every problem begins by acknowledging that there is a problem to begin with. Half a million Americans died, a problem exists, and the next step is to investigate options to resolve the issue.

The truth is that many Americans simply aren't aware that half a million US citizens died on 2020. They seem to think that Covid is imaginary and that maybe it's just like the flu. When in fact, the flu has never killed 500,000 people on a single year, nor anything even close to such a number. The deadliest of flu years don't even amount to 1/5th of such a number.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by iCenozoic

[slavelight]

5 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Great, we are making progress. The data is important because it highlights how deadly the virus is.

No, the data at best only says that more people died. Correlation does not equal causation. Maybe it was known that there was going to be a jump in death rate during 2020 (can be many natural reasons for this) and the ones behind the wuhan lab decided to release the virus during these time periods.

As I voiced before, if the virus was so deadly and dangerous millions wouldn't be hesitant on taking the vaccine.

[iCenozoic]

5 hours ago, slavelight said:

No, the data at best only says that more people died. Correlation does not equal causation. Maybe it was known that there was going to be a jump in death rate during 2020 (can be many natural reasons for this) .

No explanations for this exist but covid-19. 

The reason we know this is simple:

A. No natural cause of death has ever reached anywhere even remotely near half a million excess deaths in any given year and for no apparent reason. For example, in a given year, the flu might cause 30,000-70,000 deaths but this is far short of 550,000. Even if the flu tripled in deadliness, it would still fall short hundreds of thousands of deaths below covid-19. The same holds true for heart conditions, diabetes, vehicle accidents etc.

Nothing in nature could feasibly be responsible for what we see except covid-19.

B. Deaths recorded occured at the same time in which covid-19 cases grew in the spring, summer and winter waves. Meaning that the more people who have covid-19 the more people die. And I agree that correlation does not equate to causation, however watching deaths precisely trail covid-19 cases up and down multiple times over the year demonstrates a direct relationship. More covid-19 cases = more deaths.

C. And obviously these people are dying in hospitals where they are observed first hand. So this allows is to rule out many causes of death such as suicide or death by drowning, or other things that might occur elsewhere.

D. The only common denominator is that 100% of these deaths occur in people who have covid-19.

2015 - 2.69 Million deaths in the US.

2016 - 2.73 (increase of 40,000 from prior year)

2017 - 2.81(increase of 80,000 from prior year)

2018 - 2.84 (increase of 30,000 from prior year)

2019 - 2.85 (increase of 10,000 from prior year)

2020 - 3.40 (increase of 0.55 or 550,000 from prior year).

We don't see half a million people randomly dying who don't have covid-19 either. They die after cases rise and after they get infected.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by iCenozoic

[Haji 2003]

On 11/17/2021 at 11:00 PM, slavelight said:

Why do you have to use religious ruling for this? Is common sense not enough?

So you don't believe in taqlid?

[slavelight]

12 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

No explanations for this exist but covid-19. 

Many explanations exists, you just have accepted to limit your spectrum.

[iCenozoic]

3 hours ago, slavelight said:

Many explanations exists, you just have accepted to limit your spectrum.

Go ahead and name one and let's see how rational it is.

Actually, don't even worry about it. If you want to believe in some underground society of lizard people abducting old people and forging death certificates in an effort to control the world, that's fine.

I'll leave ya with the last word, all the best!

Edited November 21, 2021 by iCenozoic

[justAnothermuslim]

On 11/20/2021 at 9:24 PM, slavelight said:

Don't you think that if covid19 was so deadly that the entire world would vaccinate themselves, and that there would be no need to coercion. Is this what we are seeing? no. We are seeing the opposite, mandatory and coercion being used. That enough tells me something is wrong. Imagine a virus so deadly that the authorities have to coerce people into taking the jab...

Well said bro, just what the picture below sums it up.

Any idea to explain how he got it all wrong? Thanks.

https://stevekirsch.substack.com/

 

[Haji 2003]

Jesus wept.

John 11:35.

 

[Haji 2003]

37 minutes ago, justAnothermuslim said:

Well said bro, just what the picture below sums it up.

No it doesn't.

It ignores the reality that no medical treatment is 100% effective or safe. And that includes the medical treatment that unvaccinated people get in ICU's once they contract the virus.

Yes you heard that right.

Unvaccinated people go to hospital get treatment and then die, because no treatment is 100% effective.

[justAnothermuslim]

23 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

No it doesn't.

Well, it does to me, according to this article. 

23 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

It ignores the reality that no medical treatment is 100% effective or safe. And that includes the medical treatment that unvaccinated people get in ICU's once they contract the virus.

This can’t be true. It has to be effective AND safe.

Surely it cannot be effective if it wanes after 6 months.

As for safety, you can read it here.

An excerpt:

Now, in the comments of that tweet, you’ll see people say that “these events happen all the time.” True, they do. For example, this death of Piermario Morosini that happened in 2012.

But they don’t happen at this rate. No way. That’s the thing nobody can explain. The vaccine advocates find this super-irritating. They have no rational excuse on this. They can’t use ad hominem attacks. They can’t use goofball hand waving arguments. Nothing.

All of these cases have been properly reported and are documented. No mentions (except one case) of vaccinations since the press doesn’t want to create vaccine hesitancy. But the numbers speak for themselves.

23 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Yes you heard that right.

Unvaccinated people go to hospital get treatment and then die, because no treatment is 100% effective.

I heard you right man. But I think you got it all wrong.

Data from UK shows the death ratio vaxxed to unvaxxed is 4:1.  

Source.

 

[slavelight]

During the start of the pandemic there was much discussion about herd immunity. Now there's literally zero mention of herd immunity. What happened?

I can tell you what I think happened. In many (too many) regions there's about an equal amount of covid positive that are vaxxed and unvaxxed. Meaning that being vaxxed in many regions haven't stopped spreading the virus,. Then why are why trying to force people into taking the jab? If taking the vax doesn't stop the virus, why this rush to get everyone vaccinated? Can someone please answer this question?

If you don't believe me, then please ask the people you know who work in hospital. The people that I know, have told me this themselves & also told me that the amount of young people with heart related issues has increased. Not long ago I got hands on data from my local area which also confirmed that there was an equal amount of covid positive individuals amongst the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Let me also not mention the cases where there was a surge of new cases of covid when over 80% were double vaxxed.

It started as a fight against this virus, but now it's a fight against the people.