Fees of speakers [speaker Nakhswani video]

[Panzerwaffe]

http://www.shiatv.net/video/4393fef791f39b1b179b

What are your thoughts?

[Guest]

I think this has been discussed many times before. Speakers have a right to earn a good livelihood just like anyone else. Preparing a one hour lecture takes several day's time and effort. 

[Allah Seeker]

38 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

http://www.shiatv.net/video/4393fef791f39b1b179b

What are your thoughts?

His example of Imam Hussein giving someone pearls for teaching Qur'an was not based on a contract or the teacher charging anything. Then he says that the speakers who don't charge are the problem? What kind of contradiction is this? 

Is this part of the Sunnah of Allah and the Prophet? Did the Prophet ever charge money for a speech? What nonsense is this business with religion innovation? Did Allah tell us that Messengers charged money, or were they ordered to say "my salary is with Allah"??? 

It's enough that he compared ashura speeches to cinemas and sports events! La hawla Wala qowata ila billah. This money is definitely not halal.

Edited March 17, 2020 by 313 Seeker
Auto text thingy, not my fault

[Panzerwaffe]

31 minutes ago, starlight said:

I think this has been discussed many times before. Speakers have a right to earn a good livelihood just like anyone else. Preparing a one hour lecture takes several day's time and effort. 

Sorry I didn't know it was discussed before

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

It's enough that he compared ashura speeches to cinemas and sports events!

What kind of argument is this? People happily pay money for all kind of entertainment but if it comes to spending money on a religious book or lectures they think $15 is too much. Browse around the forum and you will know.

28 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

This money is definitely not halal

You cannot issue this fatwa. 

How else are speakers and lecturers supposed to earn a livelihood?

People will happily pay thousands of dollars for a university degree, they will work in a secular profession and everyone will be saying how successful they are and God forbid a religious speaker asks for a fee and people start pronouncing haram fatwas.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Sorry I didn't know it was discussed before

It's okay. We have repeated discussions

[Panzerwaffe]

I think it depends 

I would have happily pay for substance 

I.e research articles,  books , lectures with academic references.

Infact we should have group funds for academic research projects 

But NOT paying for brand name  showmanship ala speakers zakireen and Sunni equivalents.That is just replacing sports , concerts with another kind of entertainment.

I'm all for taking religious education seriously but it has to meet that criteria 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Panzerwaffe

[Allah Seeker]

20 minutes ago, starlight said:

What kind of argument is this? People happily pay money for all kind of entertainment but if it comes to spending money on a religious book or lectures they think $15 is too much. Browse around the forum and you will know.

You cannot issue this fatwa. 

How else are speakers and lecturers supposed to earn a livelihood?

People will happily pay thousands of dollars for a university degree, they will work in a secular profession and everyone will be saying how successful they are and God forbid a religious speaker asks for a fee and people start pronouncing haram fatwas.

People often gladly pay for their own demise.

Who are we to charge money in the name of Hussein for a speech, when Hussein himself didn't do that? This is bidaa innovation at it's finest that clearly contradicts Qur'an and Sunnah. 

How should speakers earn a living? Check with the likes of Prophet Mohammed Imam Ali, and Jesus. See how they earned it. Like the rest of us halal work!

 

Again you compare religious speech to entertainment.

Edited March 17, 2020 by 313 Seeker
Just added something

[Allah Seeker]

Religious speeches are not part of a circus!

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

11 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

See how they earned it. Like the rest of us halal work!

Don't fool yourself. If we want to take strict criteria, then 'the rest of us' are likely not doing halal work either.

[realizm]

@AmirioTheMuzzy

Then our 'not halal' work would be paying their 'halal wages' ? 

I would tend to agree with the critical ones here. How khums money may finance students / speakers is one thing, how some peole make a large living by being invited around the world is something else. I find this truly anti-quranic.

Look at that brother Imam Assi : 30 years + making speeches on the sidewalk every friday. For free. 

[Panzerwaffe]

1 hour ago, realizm said:

@AmirioTheMuzzy

Then our 'not halal' work would be paying their 'halal wages' ? 

I would tend to agree with the critical ones here. How khums money may finance students / speakers is one thing, how some peole make a large living by being invited around the world is something else. I find this truly anti-quranic.

Look at that brother Imam Assi : 30 years + making speeches on the sidewalk every friday. For free. 

He is the Abu Dharr of our time 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, realizm said:

Look at that brother Imam Assi : 30 years + making speeches on the sidewalk every friday. For free. 

Does he have a job ? What is his source of income? 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, realizm said:

how some peole make a large living by being invited around the world is something else. I find this truly anti-quranic

Brother, if a doctor or engineer gets invited to give a lecture at Harvard, we are okay but if a Islamic speaker like Sayed Ammar does this it's anti-Qur'anic? 

My question is we spend tons of money on clothes, dining out, secular education, entertainment, medical bills lots of times bordering on israaf and never question it but when it comes to paying the religious speakers suddenly it's haram?

We work because we think it's important for us to have a comfortable life, not luxurious but comfortable at least but the religious speakers should be happy barely getting by because that's how one lives on khums. 

Engineers can make hundreds of thousands, doctors and Lawyers can make millions,no problem, people working in IT can be rich but a religious speaker should be okay with hand outs? 

[Haji 2003]

15 hours ago, starlight said:

Speakers have a right to earn a good livelihood just like anyone else.

I generally agree with this.

Where the logic falls down is that in most other professions you get paid more for pleasing your audience better.

The problem is that often religious speakers need to say things that are uncomfortable for their audiences. 

[eThErEaL]

17 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

http://www.shiatv.net/video/4393fef791f39b1b179b

What are your thoughts?

Not a fan of this speaker.  But I do believe that people are unnecessarily critical of him accepting money to give a lecture.  Would I give him money?  No.  I have better things to spend money on -- like  a movie at a theater.  

Edited March 18, 2020 by eThErEaL

[Haji 2003]

1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

The problem is that often religious speakers need to say things that are uncomfortable for their audiences.

Just to expand a little on this.

The Qur'an refers in multiple places to the notion of being a warning and the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) being a warner. Now my understanding is that a warning is telling people about a danger which they may not be aware of or even if they are they are not paying sufficient attention to it.

Warnings are typically necessary where behaviour change is required and people are generally unwilling to do that, so warners are not going to be the most popular of people.

[eThErEaL]

24 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

Just to expand a little on this.

The Qur'an refers in multiple places to the notion of being a warning and the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) being a warner. Now my understanding is that a warning is telling people about a danger which they may not be aware of or even if they are they are not paying sufficient attention to it.

Warnings are typically necessary where behaviour change is required and people are generally unwilling to do that, so warners are not going to be the most popular of people.

Well, putting aside fame or popularity, can someone still charge a fee for something one is truly passionate about teaching?  One may not be popular to the world, but he is still popular to those that share his interests, even if it is among 5, 10, 20 people.   

[eThErEaL]

16 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Again you compare religious speech to entertainment.

What is wrong with entertainment?  Religion should be entertaining.  

[Allah Seeker]

27 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

What is wrong with entertainment?  Religion should be entertaining.  

According to whom? 

[Allah Seeker]

1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

Just to expand a little on this.

The Qur'an refers in multiple places to the notion of being a warning and the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) being a warner. Now my understanding is that a warning is telling people about a danger which they may not be aware of or even if they are they are not paying sufficient attention to it.

Warnings are typically necessary where behaviour change is required and people are generally unwilling to do that, so warners are not going to be the most popular of people.

Warning and giving glad tidings is the duality of their speech. But there were probably instances when Imam Ali would (for instance) give Friday speeches where he wouldn't directly warn. The point is that the best speakers in humanity would not charge for their teachings, or for their speeches.

Unless we find any instance of a Prophet or saint charging for their speeches, then this should make the issue clear.

But I totally agree that the truth is hated by most people, unless it is not direct or sugar coated.

[eThErEaL]

20 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

According to whom? 

Why should religion be boring?  Religion should be fun & entertaining.  

Answer: According to our fitrah.

Who in his right mind would like to be bored to death?  

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by eThErEaL

[Allah Seeker]

1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

Why should religion be boring?  Religion should be fun & entertaining.  

Answer: According to our fitrah.

Who in his right mind would like to be bored to death?  

 

Did Allah in His book, and the Prophet in his ways and speeches, ever say that religion should be fun and entertainment? Did they say that speech should be entertainment?

Fun and entertainment is in the category of mutah and Hawa. Zeena as well.

[Haji 2003]

18 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Warning and giving glad tidings is the duality of their speech.

Agreed. My point is that when people charge they may become more inclined towards giving the glad tidings part of the message.

[eThErEaL]

7 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Did Allah in His book, and the Prophet in his ways and speeches, ever say that religion should be fun and entertainment? Did they say that speech should be entertainment?

Fun and entertainment is in the category of mutah and Hawa. Zeena as well.

Yes.  Why else would the Qur'an talk about Paradise, houris, rivers of honey, and milk.  The entire world is an entertainment.  Why else did God create it?  Except to entertain.  

Do you think He created all this in vain?  No!  for entertainment purposes.  

[Allah Seeker]

Just now, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  Why else would the Qur'an talk about Paradise, houris, rivers of honey, and milk.  The entire world is an entertainment.  Why else did God create it?  Except to entertain.  

Do you think He created all this in vain?  No!  for entertainment purposes.  

That's in the next life. Entertainment as a life purpose is a very ummayyad dynastic way of thinking. Along with any other fake Islamic rules. That's why we had Imam Ali and Prophet Mohammed and Jesus lead such exceptionally boring lives according to most people's standards. 

The purpose of our lives according to Islam is to worship God. And that's pretty much the opposite of entertainment and fun. Fasting, praying, giving away things you love, sacrifice your time and belongings for others. Doing jihad isn't much fun either.

[eThErEaL]

18 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

That's in the next life. Entertainment as a life purpose is a very ummayyad dynastic way of thinking. Along with any other fake Islamic rules. That's why we had Imam Ali and Prophet Mohammed and Jesus lead such exceptionally boring lives according to most people's standards. 

The purpose of our lives according to Islam is to worship God. And that's pretty much the opposite of entertainment and fun. Fasting, praying, giving away things you love, sacrifice your time and belongings for others. Doing jihad isn't much fun either.

Alright.  Then that’s too bad for you that you want to be bored till death.  That sounds pretty depressing.  
 

 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Did Allah in His book, and the Prophet in his ways and speeches, ever say that religion should be fun and entertainment?

Did they ever say religion had to be a consrant torture or life has to suck non stop?

We celebrate birth of Imams, that is entertainment. Celebrating Eids is entertainment.Breaking the fast together in Ramadan at the hussainya is entertainment. Hearing enlightening talks by a lecturer is entertainment. 

[Hassu93]

I have no problem with him charging huge money but it's absolutely stupid he thinks people who don't charge are problem. 

[Allah Seeker]

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Alright.  Then that’s too bad for you that you want to be bored till death.  That sounds pretty depressing.  
 

 

Actually what might seem boring according to most is exciting, but most can not see. What can be more exciting than being close to God?

[Allah Seeker]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

Did they ever say religion had to be a consrant torture or life has to suck non stop?

We celebrate birth of Imams, that is entertainment. Celebrating Eids is entertainment.Breaking the fast together in Ramadan at the hussainya is entertainment. Hearing enlightening talks by a lecturer is entertainment. 

To some it's entertainment. For others it's something totally different. Our role models from ahl bayt weren't into the whole religious events being entertainment part. Even Moses making miracles to debunk the magic tricks of magicians wasn't for fun, as the magicians were faced with death and torture after choosing Moses' side, and willingly did so. Just like Hussein going to Karbala, or ghadir khum speech are not for purpose of fun. Those events have one purpose, and no other purpose: Worship of God. And worshipping is not entertainment. Worshipping is remembering, worship is sacrifice, worship is patience, worship is charity, worship is studying, worship is fighting against desires, worship is doing good.

[Panzerwaffe]

Comparison to doctors engineer is not valid 

Professionals have to give advice based on

1 peer reviewed research , industry standards 

2 held legally accountable incase their advice is substandard

3 in best interest of their client 

4 they are certified to INTERPRET data to make judgements 

NONE of these apply to religious speakers esp not to showmen like Mr... nakhswani,  zakir naik, etc

Better comparison would be with Dr... Oz [ and we know how credible he is ] 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Panzerwaffe

[Panzerwaffe]

4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Not a fan of this speaker.  But I do believe that people are unnecessarily critical of him accepting money to give a lecture.  Would I give him money?  No.  I have better things to spend money on -- like  a movie at a theater.  

Ofcourse not you follow a different brand or team 

Would a Sox fan pay $25 for a Cubs Jersey? No

But the point is charging $25 for a lousy impractical piece of clothing is a rip off 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Actually what might seem boring according to most is exciting, but most can not see. What can be more exciting than being close to God?

Can you see how are you being contradictory here?? 

Anything pleasing is entertaining to me and to most people. I am sorry you see religion as something dreary. 

Just now, Panzerwaffe said:

peer reviewed research , industry standards

So you think preparing for a religious lecture doesn't require research? It's a lot more research work because it doesn't involve sitting on your desktop and clicking through pubmed.

2 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

held legally accountable incase their advice is substandard

And religious speakers won't be held accountable. Is worldly accountability all that matters? 

It's sad. People are willing to pay for a doctor's visit, for a comfortable house, SUVs,  holidays, universities but God forbid someone expects money for a lecture on religion. 

[Panzerwaffe]

8 minutes ago, starlight said:

Can you see how are you being contradictory here?? 

Anything pleasing is entertaining to me and to most people. I am sorry you see religion as something dreary. 

So you think preparing for a religious lecture doesn't require research? It's a lot more research work because it doesn't involve sitting on your desktop and clicking through pubmed.

And religious speakers won't be held accountable. Is worldly accountability all that matters? 

It's sad. People are willing to pay for a doctor's visit, for a comfortable house, SUVs,  holidays, universities but God forbid someone expects money for a lecture on religion. 

Have you heard a nakhswani lecture ? Compare it to a small one page article in Brills encyclopedia of Islam and you can see how much research / citations lecture has vs article

Oh so now worldly accountability bothers you, as you want it in Akirah

maybe we should pay them in akirah $$$$ as well , I'm sure they are worth  a lot more.Or better still let's pay these preachers with duas , collective prayers from audiences for their long life , sustenance and forgiveness.

 

Personally I condemn spending money on SUV luxuries vacations too just as harshly but blowing it on soulless preachers is plain stupid 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Panzerwaffe