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In the Name of God بسم الله
GabrielWithoutWings

What is the line between bidah and self-expression?

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I don't get the concept of bidah.  I understand that it means innovation but what exactly does it mean and where does it stop?  Does Islam allow for personal or cultural expression of faith?  Or is everything that wasn't done during the time of Muhammad bidah?  

I was listening to a YouTube video (Mufti Menk, I think).  He told the story of a recent convert to Islam of about 3 months.  She had on a necklace or rosary, I believe, with some Arabic on it.  Some guy walked up to her and told it was haram and bidah.  He then ripped the necklace off of her and threw it in the trash. 

Sunnis say that Shi'as who strike their chest and mourn Karbala are committing bidah.  Shi'as say that Sunnis who say AMEEN and do wudhu differently and do group Qur'an readings during Ramadan (I think?) are committing bidah.  

If I were Muslim and I were to say the Hail Mary prayer (changed from Mother of God to Mother of Christ), is this bidah? 

If I were Muslim and I chanted the Beatitudes, is this bidah?  What about the Psalms?  

What is bidah? 

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2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

Does Islam allow for personal or cultural expression of faith?

Yes, 100%, so long as it's not Shirk or something else that contradicts with Islamic law.

2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

is this bidah?

Firstly, note that we are talking about religious innovations. It is argued that there are good innovations, neutral innovations, uncertain innovations, bad innovations, etc., etc.

Also, I will be speaking in generalizations from here on out..,

2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

If I were Muslim and I were to say the Hail Mary prayer (changed from Mother of God to Mother of Christ), is this bidah? 

If I were Muslim and I chanted the Beatitudes, is this bidah?  What about the Psalms?  

As far as acts of worship are concerned, this one has no basis in Islam, and should be avoided. Despite it possibly not contradicting with Islamic principles.

The concern with innovation is that it might change the religion over time, and that we should only take what has been (divinely) sanctioned. I.e. We only take from that which has basis in Islam. We take what we know to be correct, avoiding ambiguities in worship, and avoiding divergence from the straight path.
 

2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

Sunnis say that Shi'as who strike their chest and mourn Karbala are committing bidah.  Shi'as say that Sunnis who say AMEEN and do wudhu differently and do group Qur'an readings during Ramadan (I think?) are committing bidah.

The differences (to an extent) arises from what/who we believe is to be followed. (Highly) Simplified, Sunnis say Qu'ran and Sunnah, Shias say Qur'an and Ahlul-Bayt.*

*Edit: We both follow Sunnah and Ahlul-Bayt, but we have very different views as to what that entails. But, you'll always hear Sunnis saying the former, and Shias saying the latter

Edit 3: [This difference may seem trivial, but it's not. This difference is core to our differences, as it is what differentiates our hadith, regarding who to follow after the demise of our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&hf)...

For Sunnis, the Sunnah is following (taking narrations from) the Companions of the Prophet. [Don't want to go further, for risk of misrepresentation]

For Shias, we only follow the 'righteous' companions of the Prophet, meaning those who listened to our Prophet (p) who said that Ali (p) is his successor appointed by God [hold onto ropes of God through the Qur'an and the teachings of my Ahlul-Bayt (progeny)... see Ghadir Khumm, etc.], I.e. the companions of the Prophet who made allegiance to Ali (p), I.e. those who became the Companions of Ali (p) and [later] the other 11 Imams in succession (p).
.......

Edit 2: Should simple doctrinal issues be called innovations? How does it all work?
...Another member should jump off from here.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

*Edit: We both follow Sunnah and Ahlul-Bayt, but we have very different views as to what that entails. But, you'll always hear Sunnis saying the former, and Shias saying the latter

Edit 3: [This difference may seem trivial, but it's not. This difference is core to our differences, as it is what differentiates our hadith, regarding who to follow after the demise of our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&hf)...

For Sunnis, the Sunnah is following (taking narrations from) the Companions of the Prophet. [Don't want to go further, for risk of misrepresentation]

For Shias, we only follow the 'righteous' companions of the Prophet, meaning those who listened to our Prophet (p) who said that Ali (p) is his successor appointed by God [hold onto ropes of God through the Qur'an and the teachings of my Ahlul-Bayt (progeny)... see Ghadir Khumm, etc.], I.e. the companions of the Prophet who made allegiance to Ali (p), I.e. those who became the Companions of Ali (p) and [later] the other 11 Imams in succession (p).

From a Sunni Sheikh (I forget his name right now, but he's well known) 'exposing' how "Qu'ran and Sunnah" is only mentioned in weak hadith, whereas "Qur'an and Ahlul-Bayt" is frequently mentioned, yet Sunnis have made this "Qur'an and Sunnah" doctrine seem so essential [in order to justify not following wilyat and to justify exaggerating the status of the companions]:

I don't think I've ever fully seen this video, but it seems legit. You might want to watch it sped up. Also, people tend to dislike this guy, so don't hesitate to watch a different video:


And there are many many more videos, articles, books, etc., outlining this stuff.

Edit: Sunnah means the doings and sayings [actions] of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

This is implied in following the Ahlul-Bayt, they are divinely appointed to protect the Sunnah through their knowledge and leadership.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Should simple doctrinal issues be called innovations?

The answer is likely no, but somebody please explain the line between simple doctrinal issues/differences [assuming these innovations did not enter into Islam nefariously] and innovations worthy of condemnation.

My guess is that the distinction is made IF 1) Sunni/Shia brings forward proof that X was added to Sunni/Shia jurisprudence nefariously. 2) It is a substantial jurisprudential difference, and not something like "how many times you should say the takbir in the adhan? Once, twice, four times?". Thus, something more to do with theological beliefs.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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On 3/16/2020 at 9:40 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Yes, 100%, so long as it's not Shirk or something else that contradicts with Islamic law.

Firstly, note that we are talking about religious innovations. It is argued that there are good innovations, neutral innovations, uncertain innovations, bad innovations, etc., etc.

Also, I will be speaking in generalizations from here on out..,

As far as acts of worship are concerned, this one has no basis in Islam, and should be avoided. Despite it possibly not contradicting with Islamic principles.

The concern with innovation is that it might change the religion over time, and that we should only take what has been (divinely) sanctioned. I.e. We only take from that which has basis in Islam. We take what we know to be correct, avoiding ambiguities in worship, and avoiding divergence from the straight path.
 

The differences (to an extent) arises from what/who we believe is to be followed. (Highly) Simplified, Sunnis say Qu'ran and Sunnah, Shias say Qur'an and Ahlul-Bayt.*

*Edit: We both follow Sunnah and Ahlul-Bayt, but we have very different views as to what that entails. But, you'll always hear Sunnis saying the former, and Shias saying the latter

Edit 3: [This difference may seem trivial, but it's not. This difference is core to our differences, as it is what differentiates our hadith, regarding who to follow after the demise of our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&hf)...

For Sunnis, the Sunnah is following (taking narrations from) the Companions of the Prophet. [Don't want to go further, for risk of misrepresentation]

For Shias, we only follow the 'righteous' companions of the Prophet, meaning those who listened to our Prophet (p) who said that Ali (p) is his successor appointed by God [hold onto ropes of God through the Qur'an and the teachings of my Ahlul-Bayt (progeny)... see Ghadir Khumm, etc.], I.e. the companions of the Prophet who made allegiance to Ali (p), I.e. those who became the Companions of Ali (p) and [later] the other 11 Imams in succession (p).
.......

Edit 2: Should simple doctrinal issues be called innovations? How does it all work?
...Another member should jump off from here.

Sorry for the late reply.  This sickness has had me busy. 

I can understand that an "act of worship" could be off limits, same as adding in turning to the left and right during salat, since salat is a formal act of worship.  The Hail Mary prayer and the Beatitudes aren't acts of worship.  They're more devotionals.  Intercessory prayer is allowed in Shi'ism, from what I can see.  As long as nothing violates La illaha il Allah - Muhammad ar-Rasulallah, I don't see why it matters.  People say their own personal du'as all the time.  Jesus was a messenger, David was a messenger... just because the Bible and the Psalms are said to be corrupted, that doesn't mean that every single word in them is corrupt.  

I have a very difficult time finding the dividing lines between bidah, ijtihad, and fiqh, to be honest.

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1 hour ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

same as adding in turning to the left and right during salat

I get what you mean, but this is a bad example, lol. This is allowed, though unusual. I've seen Ayatollah Makarem do it before. Once your Salah is over, you can do anything.

1 hour ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

As long as nothing violates La illaha il Allah - Muhammad ar-Rasulallah, I don't see why it matters.  People say their own personal du'as all the time.  Jesus was a messenger, David was a messenger... just because the Bible and the Psalms are said to be corrupted, that doesn't mean that every single word in them is corrupt.  

I agree. People just worry about transmitting extra stuff to the future generations and accidentally eventually sinning (the concern being that maybe some will start to think it's part of the religion... so then the future people's intention and understanding is all wrong). I think this claim makes little sense, as this is simply the problem with culture in general, and it's unavoidable.

The problem though is that this isn't really a personal du'a, right? I mean, you're saying something relatively long in a particular way, and it's well established as foreign to Islamic practice. It would sorta ruin the idea of having authenticated duas. It's not a spurious supplication to God, is what I'm saying. If it was a particularly good dua, the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) would have likely taught it to their followers. Also, it might be wrong simply because it is associated with imitating Christians/Christianity.

It's all confusing, and you should likely email the office of Makarem Shirazi (they also have whatsapp, and for both they respond relatively quicker than most) or Sistani (though they take at least a month to reply). That is, if you want a strictly jurisprudential halal/haram answer. Akhlaaq (etiquette) is a completely different matter altogether. It sounds like a question that probably has been answered before, so you will get a response for sure.

1 hour ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

I have a very difficult time finding the dividing lines between bidah, ijtihad, and fiqh, to be honest.

I completely agree. There's got to be books out there on the topic, so I'll let you know if I find anything.

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34 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

The problem though is that this isn't really a personal du'a, right? I mean, you're saying something relatively long in a particular way, and it's well established as foreign to Islamic practice. It would sorta ruin the idea of having authenticated duas. It's not a spurious supplication to God, is what I'm saying. If it was a particularly good dua, the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) would have likely taught it to their followers. Also, it might be wrong simply because it is associated with imitating Christians/Christianity.

That still doesn't make sense.  If Jesus is a messenger, mentioned in the Qur'an, then what is the point of learning who he was, that he brought a Kitab of guidance, that his mother was holy, etc., if it's just merely there to make mention of?  It seems like a waste of tradition to me. 

It would probably be more palatable to Christians who want to convert if they could keep the prayers that their families have taught them for centuries.  Is everyone supposed to take down the framed needlepoint Bible verses that their grandmothers made them?  

I could completely understand this argument for people that came after Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, for example.  Not saying Baha'I prayers would completely make sense.  

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2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

That still doesn't make sense.  If Jesus is a messenger, mentioned in the Qur'an, then what is the point of learning who he was, that he brought a Kitab of guidance, that his mother was holy, etc., if it's just merely there to make mention of?  It seems like a waste of tradition to me. 

Concisely,
[As you know] The idea is that Muhammad (s) came with the final uncorrupted message of God for all of mankind and jinnkind. The Imams know and protect this message perfectly.

Detailed,
The Shia doctrine of hierarchy is that Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is of highest authority, followed by his Ahlul-Bayt (a) because they are protectors of his message, and they are both of a higher authority than Jesus (عليه السلام) [note: I am not saying piety/greater, I am saying authority/rank], and Jesus along with Moses, Abraham, Noah --the other "Ulul Azm"s [arch-Prophets] (I.e. the Prophets who came with divine books and legislation for the people of their time and place), are of higher authority than the other Prophets who are not Ulul Azm.

Among Shia school, majority say it is the Imams after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in authority [as I mentioned] and a minority says it is actually the ulil azm Prophets who are higher in authority than the Imams, because they are both Imams and Prophets and Messengers. The rank of Imamate being higher than that of Prophethood is explained by this ayah: "And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind.”(Qur’an 2:124). Abraham (عليه السلام) was already a Prophet and then granted the status of Imam after passing a test. Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a Prophet, the final Messenger and an Imam so he is the highest in authority.


The teachings of Muhammad (s) sufficiently cover the teachings of Jesus (عليه السلام), as does God in the Qur'an, as does our extra-textual works (note: there are a lot of extra Shia works on Jesus (عليه السلام), his twelve disciples (رضي الله عنه), his noble mother Mary (sa), Prophet John the Baptist (as)). The teachings regarding Jesus (s) in the Qur'an are beautiful and plentiful.


Anyways, I fail to see what this has to do with supplicating. If you don't take those traditions (I.e. Hail Mary, Beatitudes) to be from Jesus (a) than they are of little value. Also, as far as dua alone is concerned, we have Jesus mentioned in several, including sending peace upon him in Ziyarat of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

It would probably be more palatable to Christians who want to convert if they could keep the prayers that their families have taught them for centuries.

Completely agree. This is a good argument for keeping such prayers, and is probably why it's halal or should be (assuming no shirq contents). Especially considering the stupid Shia cultural practices with bizarre gatherings with bizarre recitations, it would nice to have something beautiful instead. This is 'urf (culture) and allowed. The concern is when it is treated as part of the religion--which is easily avoidable and shouldn't be of concern. Furthermore, I remember a few different posts from Ibn al-Hussain, who said that the research has shown that at the Prophet's time, the Bedouin and Nomad Muslims [I guess because they lived on the outskirts] were oftentimes not held to the same standard as the Tribal Arabs, and were given exceptions to their practice. He gave the example of the hijab covering of women not being worn by these groups [though this post was deleted for I presume it's controversy]. Maybe the same idea could apply here.

2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

Is everyone supposed to take down the framed needlepoint Bible verses that their grandmothers made them?  

Nobody is suggesting this, there's nothing wrong with bible verses. We're talking about supplicating here.

2 hours ago, GabrielWithoutWings said:

I could completely understand this argument for people that came after Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, for example.  Not saying Baha'I prayers would completely make sense.

I completely completely completely agree. No arguments here. :)

Let's go back to something I said earlier in this very post... 

Quote

We have Jesus mentioned in several [dua], including sending peace upon him in Ziyarat of Imam Hussain

This takes me back to my very first Shia post. I found this:

On 1/25/2019 at 10:21 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:
On 1/25/2019 at 10:03 AM, S.M.H.A. said:

"Of the several prescribed Ziyarat of Imam al-Hussain ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), one was recited by Imam al-Mahdi ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and reached us through one of his four special deputies. For that reason, it is known as the Ziyarat that was issued from the sacred side (Ziyarat al-Nahiya al-Muqaddasa).

 

'Allamah Majlisi (Bihar v. 98) say that Ziyarat Nahiya is the words of Sayyid al-Murtada (and possibly Shaykh Mufid and even another scholar). It is not the Ziyarat of Imam Mahdi (a) [which was a misattribution made by Ibn Mashhadi]. I wonder why you cannot find it in Mafatih al-Jinan either. Please don't rely on random internet websites for your faith.

.

On 1/25/2019 at 10:51 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:
On 1/25/2019 at 10:36 AM, S.M.H.A. said:

"and possibly Shaykh Mufid and even another scholar"

Can you provide proof? 

 

Allamah Majlisi, before citing the Ziyarah:

زِيَارَةٌ أُخْرَى لَهُ صَلَوَاتُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ أَوْرَدَهَا السَّيِّدُ وَ غَيْرُهُ وَ الظَّاهِرُ أَنَّهُ مِنْ تَأْلِيفِ السَّيِّدِ الْمُرْتَضَى رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ فِي مِصْبَاحِ الزَّائِرِ زِيَارَةً بِأَلْفَاظٍ شَافِيَةٍ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا بَعْضُ مَصَائِبِ يَوْمِ الطَّفِّ يُزَارُ بِهَا الْحُسَيْنُ صَلَوَاتُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ وَ سَلَامُهُ زَارَ بِهَا الْمُرْتَضَى عَلَمُ الْهُدَى رِضْوَانُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ وَ سَأَذْكُرُهَا عَلَى الْوَصْفِ الَّذِي أَشَارَ هُوَ إِلَيْهِ قَال‏

After citing the Ziyarah:

و الظاهر أن هذه الزيارة من مؤلفات السيد و المفيد رحمهما الله

When he cites it again on page 328 of v. 98:

فظهر أن هذه الزيارة منقولة مروية و يحتمل أن لا تكون مختصة بيوم عاشوراء كما فعله السيد المرتضى ره. و أما الاختلاف الواقع بين تلك الزيارة و بين ما نسب إلى السيد المرتضى فلعله مبني على اختلاف الروايات و الأظهر أن السيد أخذ هذه الزيارة و أضاف إليها من قبل نفسه ما أضاف. و في روايتي المفيد و المزار الكبير بعد قوله المخصوص بإخوته قوله السلام على صاحب القبة السامية و الظاهر أنه سقط من النساخ الزيارة التي ألحقناها من رواية السيد ره

As for "even another scholar" then that is deduced from the fact that parts of it do not appear in the citation of Sayyid al-Murtada and were found in manuscripts of other works.

Wasalam

.
In my opinion, if it's good for our classical scholars to have made their own personal dua involving Jesus (عليه السلام) and the other Prophets (عليه السلام), only to be misattributed to Imam al-Mahid (عليه السلام), which then in our times appears on the culturally most popular Shia dua site listed as authentic from Imam al-Mahdi during minor occultation [though it isn't], then it's plenty fine for you to recite appropriate versions of the Hail Mary and the Beatitudes.

My conclusion, this shouldn't be a problem except for possible community backlash, or lack of full acceptance by some.

Wasalam.

Note: I am not a knowledgeable member, I am only 20 years old, you probably shouldn't be taking advice from me.

Edit: It just occurred to me that the embedded link I sent you Tuesday probably did not show up for you, so I will send you a text link instead:
https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235065762-aspects-of-tashayyu/?do=findComment&comment=3271531

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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مرکز پاسخگویی به سوالات

Tracking Code : en9901050017

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah؛

Answer: If you mean those Christians who have converted into Islam, there would be no problem for them to utter reliable supplications so that become familiar with their important contents.
Question: Is it permissible to recite inauthentic supplications, provided that they do not contain Shirk or Haram contents? For instance, is it allowed for Christian reverts to continue reciting [modified versions of] their Hymns, which have been passed down in their families for generations, in order for those traditions to not disappear from their cultural heritage? Especially those traditions that venerate Jesus (p) in a Halal manner. May God bless you.

Wishing you all the success

Ayatollah Makarim Shirazi’s Office

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So, they either avoided answering my question or genuinely misunderstood it. :hahaha: Importantly, this means its (most likely) allowed since they didn't have an answer prepared. 

Haha, all the response really says is "It is permissible to recite reliable supplications". Duh! But how about unreliable supplications? "..."

Oh well, I sent two emails, one a few days earlier but they didn't respond. That's the problem with asking from Offices of Maraji, where they need to be overly cautious when responding. When I find the time, I'll pose my questions to some Scholarly websites (like IslamQuest or al-Islam). Here was the email I sent that got no response from Makarem Shirazi's office... to be fair, it's a bad question and I should have ended it after the second sentence (maybe I'll send it again revised when I find the time): 

"Is it permissible to supplicate to God using Christian Hymns? For example, is it permissible to chant the Beatitudes, or the Psalms, or the Hail Mary prayer (if changed from Mother of God to Mother of Christ). Would it constitute a personal supplication rather than a prohibited innovation? Additionally, is intercession with previous Prophets, such as Jesus (p) allowed? Are there any authentic Islamic [Shia Jafari] supplications that use the status of Jesus (p) to seek closeness to God? If so, could you please refer me to the names of those supplications? Thanks and God bless."

I also sent these two questions to Sistani & M.S. Hakeem offices, but they will take forever to respond. Other Clerical offices (that answer English) would likely take even longer, but if I find the time, I'll ask them too.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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Edit: See post below, the original question I sent in was answered yesterday, much to my surprise.

Apologies, I never got around to sending in the new questions. That being said, 

I found this which is of interest:
http://www.bliis.org/essay/lords-prayer-Islam/

Note, italicized brackets are my doing, not part of the original article. 

It importantly says (bolded):

Quote

When it comes to the strength of chains of transmission, Imāmī scholars have usually been liberal in the acceptance of supplications as long as they fit the normative theological and devotional narrative of Imāmī Shīʿism [...]

However, it wrongly states:

Quote

[...] yet nothing in the Islamic version of the Lord’s Prayer is controversial by Imāmī or any normative standard in the discursive tradition of Islam.


The opening of the prayer is:

Quote

O Lord God who is in heaven,

Of course, this is not by Imami standards. God is beyond space, time, matter, location, limations, imaginations, and everything else, as these are created by Him, thus He is not bound to them, I.e. God is independent and unlimited, and there is no comparison to Him.

As the article mentions,

Quote

The tradition [in Islam] is originally [reported] by Abū Dāwūd (d. 275/888) but is surprisingly utilized by Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728/1328) for theological purposes[3] suggesting that its contents – in his view – are reliable at some level.[4] The tradition exists almost verbatim in Shīʿī traditions but is attributed to ʿAlī who states that the prayer was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad by the archangel Gabriel as a healing for his physical pain.[5]

If anyone skipped reading the footnotes they would get the wrong impression of the article, so I don't think the following should have been put as a footnote:

Quote

[3] Ibn Taymiyyah is utilizing the tradition to show that God is literally in the heaven, it is likely intended to be used as evidence against those who subscribe to [what he considers as] panentheism (waḥdat al-wujūd). See Taqī al-Dīn Aḥmad Ibn Taymiyyah, Majmūʿah al-Rasāʾil al-Kubrā (al-ʿAqīdah al-Wāsiṭiyyah), 2 vols. (Beirut: Dār li-Iḥyāʾ al-Turāth al-ʿArabī, n.d), I, 399.

[4] Although many Sunnī scholars have had qualms with the tradition, dismissing its chain of transmission as weak (ḍaʿīf), others have considered it as reliable (ḥasan), see for example Muḥāmmad b. Khalīl al-Harrās, Sharḥ al-ʿAqīdat al-Wāsiṭiyyah (Cairo: Dār Ibn ʿAffān, 1423/2002), 208.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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مرکز پاسخگویی به سوالات

Tracking Code : en9901020045

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah؛

Answer: 1. There would be no problem to recite these Psalms and supplications and even have reward if they are quoted from Jesus (عليه السلام) in reliable sources provided that they do not contradict foundations of belief. 2. The intercession of all Prophets and Allah’s friend would be accepted by Allah’s permission if the person has the condition (to be interceded). 3. Some duas, supplications and wise quotes from Jesus (عليه السلام) and other Prophets have mentioned in shi’a and Sunni sources. In this case, you can refer to book ‘حكمت نامه عيسى بن مريم (عليهما السلام)’ published by ‘موسسه علمى فرهنگى دار الحديث‏ قم’.
Question: Is it permissible to supplicate to God using Christian Hymns? For example, is it permissible to chant the Beatitudes, or the Psalms, or the Hail Mary prayer (if changed from Mother of God to Mother of Christ). Would it constitute a personal supplication rather than a prohibited innovation? Additionally, is intercession with previous Prophets, such as Jesus (p) allowed? Are there any authentic Islamic [Shia Jafari] supplications that use the status of Jesus (p) to seek closeness to God? If so, could you please refer me to the names of these supplications? Thanks and God bless.

Wishing you all the success

Ayatollah Makarim Shirazi’s Office

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^100% halal. Alhamdulillah. 

No need for me to send in any new questions, good thing I forgot about it, lol. 

This is the most definitive response anyone could ever ask for :grin: from the office of a top cleric.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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5 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

you can refer to book ‘حكمت نامه عيسى بن مريم (عليهما السلام)’ published by ‘موسسه علمى فرهنگى دار الحديث‏ قم’

Translation: "The Wisdom Letter of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him)" published by "Qom Dar Al-Hadith Scientific and Cultural Institute"

Book Title: The Wisdom Letter of Jesus son of Mary (p)
Author: Mohammed Mohammadi Rey Shahri
Translator (into Farsi): Hamidreza Sheikhi
in Collaboration with: Mojtaba Faraji
Publisher: Dar al-Hadith
Place of publication: Qom
Year published: 2013
Cut: Vaziri
Print: Second
Pages: 322

The book is originally in Farsi-Arabic (both languages in the same book, I presume). Apparently the book has been translated into Armenian, Italian, Spanish, French, English, and Russian. But, I can only find it for purchase in Farsi-Arabic. 

EDIT: I found it in Italian: https://www.amazon.it/parole-sapienza-Gesù-nellIslam-tradizionale/dp/8884745160
ISBN-10: 8884745160
ISBN-13: 978-8884745163
Copertina flessibile: 112 pagine
Editore: Il Cerchio (25 aprile 2018)

EDIT: I found it in Spanish: https://www.amazon.es/SENTENCIAS-SABIDURÍA-JESÚS-MARÍA-AMBOS/dp/8417168680
ISBN-10: 8417168680
ISBN-13: 978-8417168681
Tapa blanda: 780 páginas
Editor: Mandala Ediciones; Edición: 1 (6 de agosto de 2018)

EDIT: I found info for French (but no purchase link found): https://libislam.fr/produit/sagesses-de-jesus-fils-de-marie/
ISBN: 978-1-909285-72-9
Nombre de pages: 133
Avril 2019
Dar al-Hadith et The World Federation of KSIMC

Book Info written in Farsi: http://www.reyshahri.ir/post/53086/حکمت-نامه-عیسی-بن-مریم-ع, http://www.darolhadith.ir/post/39398/حکمت-نامه-عیسی-بن-مریم-علیه-السلام/
Purchase in Farsi-Arabic (Third Edition): http://shop.darolhadith.ir/حکمت-نامه-ها/102-حکمت-نامه-عیسی-بن-مریم-علیه-السلام.html
ISBN: 978-964-493-652-4
Read full book Online in Farsi-Arabic (Sign-up required): https://www.noorlib.ir/View/fa/Book/BookView/Image/25461
Citations for Farsi-Arabic: http://www.lib.ir/books/?ids=70519862,65110181&p=1

Armenian Translation by: Varja Khachaturi Parsa Danian, Yerevan: Edit Print, first edition, 2015, Roghaee, 214 p., Armenian.
http://www.reyshahri.ir/post/49121/ترجمه-ارمنی-کتاب-حکمت-نامه-عیسی-بن-مریم-ع-رونمایی-شد 

Italian Translation: Il-Cherkivi Publishing House. 169 pages, along with some texts of verses and hadiths in Arabic. Translated by Ms Nasma Mohammed Taher Mostafa Al-Saakan (Egyptian), Professor and Orientalist at the University of Palermo, Islamic [Studies].

Book Title: "Le parole di sapienza di Gesù"; A cura di Ayatollah Mohammed Mohammadi Rey Shahri; In collaborazione Mujtabà Faraji; Introduzione, traduzione dall'arabo in italiano e note a cura di Nesma ElSakaan
https://hawzahnews.com/news/448570
Note: 500 copies published at 20 Euros each (at the time the article was written).

Spanish Translation: Published by Mandala Publications in Madrid, by the Organization of Islamic Culture and Communication, in Spain. 
Book Title: "Sentencias de sabiduría de Jesús hijo de María - con ambos sea la paz"; Àrabe-Español; Compilado por Muhammad Muhammadi Rey Shahri; Traducio del àrabe por: Sumeia Younes Abdulhadi.
mehrnews.com/xLKjT

French Translation: The book was published in Paris on April 7, 2019 in collaboration with the World Federation of Khoja and unveiled at the Conference on Dialogue of Religions.
Book Title: "Sagesses de Jésus fils de Marie"; Ayatullah Mohammadi Reyshahri
http://www.reyshahri.ir/post/65489/رونمایی-از-کتاب-حکمت-نامه-عیسی-بن-مریم-در-فرانسه

English & Russian Translations: 

Quote

It is worth mentioning that [in addition to French] this work has already been published in Armenian, Spanish and Italian languages and its English translation has also been completed. Also, the Russian translation of this book is underway. (Written: Jan 20, 2019 on reyshahri.ir [See French Translation link above])


All articles on reyshahri.ir that mention the book: http://www.reyshahri.ir/Tag/10513/حکمت-نامه-عیسی-بن-مریم-ع. Also: air.ir/ZrqihXq mentions IT, ES, FR translations.

Similar books in English: 

Quote

[3] It is worth mentioning that several hadiths have been published about Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) before, including:

- Jesus (peace be upon him) to the Muslims, Tarif al-Khalidi. This work was published by Harvard University in 2001 in English in the United States, in which the Arabic text of Sunni narrations about Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is collected.

- Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in the narrations of the Shiite Muslims, Mehdi Montazer Ghaem. The book was published in Beirut in 2006 by the Encyclopedia of Wisdom and translated into English by Muhammad Legenhausen.

- Jesus Al-Masih (peace be upon him) in Al-Ahadith Al-Mushtarak, between Sunnah and Shiism, Mahdi Montazer Al-Qaim. This work was published in Arabic by Al-Majma 'Al-Alami in the Middle East between the Islamic Schools, in 1426 AH, in Tehran.

It is also worth mentioning that the character and teachings of Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) based on ancient Persian texts (especially mystical, moral, educational and interpretive texts) have been collected by Qamar Arian (Zarrin Koob) in a book called The Face of Christ in Persian Literature. (Tehran: Moin, 1990).

I also found a similar book in Arabic, read full online, no-signup:
https://www.alameli.net/شمعون-الصفا-وصي-المسيحع-وجد-الإمام-الم/

Pictures of
'Wisdom Letter of Jesus son of Mary' translations:
1936468990_image(1).jpg.dcfdbb8a509e29555394580b412bd00d.jpg2056925641_51TdwqEqQHL._SX358_BO1204203200_.jpg.2e2b39353025f7c41bd841fa07429277.jpg1291902739_51yht5dwIIL._SX342_BO1204203200_.jpg.75412d4afb381f6942748aa4550ce89e.jpg219921659_image(5).thumb.jpg.a73239cf3be0f396d26179f0dcd44374.jpg

L0686-images-2.jpgL0686-images-3.jpg.e214169dbfac492bdac333e4f5d8a57d.jpg

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
Added pictures

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23 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

EDIT: I found info for French (but no purchase link found): https://libislam.fr/produit/sagesses-de-jesus-fils-de-marie/

This is similar, but not the same, if anyone is interested:

https://www.al-Islam.org/fr/propos-de-jesus-sur-lethique/jésus-fils-de-marie-cité-dans-le-saint-coran

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Acts fall into 5 broad categories

Halal

Mustahab (encouraged)

Mukru (discouraged)

Haram 

Mubba (neutral)

If an act doesn't fall into the first 4 the it's mubba.

Mubba act can change I.e folding hands is neutral but Inroducing it to prayer is now a bidda.

This is an overview I'm sure there are lots of grey areas. 

 

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On 4/9/2020 at 9:19 AM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Answer: 1. There would be no problem to recite these Psalms and supplications and even have reward if they are quoted from Jesus (عليه السلام) in reliable sources provided that they do not contradict foundations of belief. 2. The intercession of all Prophets and Allah’s friend would be accepted by Allah’s permission if the person has the condition (to be interceded). 3. Some duas, supplications and wise quotes from Jesus (عليه السلام) and other Prophets have mentioned in shi’a and Sunni sources. In this case, you can refer to book ‘حكمت نامه عيسى بن مريم (عليهما السلام)’ published by ‘موسسه علمى فرهنگى دار الحديث‏ قم’.

This is Makarem Shirazi's office's response. Just to clarify! :grin: (I sorta spammed this thread)
@GabrielWithoutWings
You may keep your Christian supplications! No problem! :clap: (edit: I mean anyone, not you specifically ☺)

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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In the Name of God, the Most High

Seeking intercession of all prophets is allowed and you pray in your own language to ask for help and assistance from Allah.

May Allah grant you success

www.sistani.org

Istifta Section - Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Sistani

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
Sent: Saturday March 21, 2020 at 20:49 Najaf time. Recieved: Saturday April 25, 2020 at 9:10 Najaf time.

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I should probably have mentioned:

For those interested in purchasing this book visit shop.darolhadith.ir 
For purchasing a book and inquiries into other language editions, contact DarolHadith phone no. 02537740545 [You must speak Farsi].
For other inquiries email them at darolhadith.20@gmail.com [You must write in Farsi].
 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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In the Name of God, the Most High

As long as they do not contain anything wrong, there is no problem in it.

May Allah grant you success.

www.sistani.org

Istifta Section - Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Sistani

RE: Is it permissible to recite inauthentic supplications?

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
Sent: Tuesday March 24, 2020 at 14:37 Najaf time. Recieved: Thursday May 14, 2020 at 4:07 Najaf time.

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