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MuhammadFreeman

On the feminist protests in Pakistan

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I understand I have previously spoken ill of Pakistan before.

I am actually a Pakistani citizen. I have since read over a hundred books and have come a long way. I saw the post "Pakistan should be declared a Sunni nation" as soon as I logged in. Actually, my post was going to be along these lines. We have come such a long way!

Right now, the feminists there are standing up against the mullah parties. Remember that Pakistani women's decline in education is strongly linked with US intervention in Afghanistan and Pakistan under Operation Cyclone. I have heard Sunnis oppose our traditions on the basis that women do matam. I do not agree with the Western feminist doctrines which disguise capitalist interjection of the family unit as feminist rebellion. However, this is an excellent opportunity for Shias in Pakistan to call for an independent state.

Looking back towards, various revolutionary movements, and Pakistan's flaws seem to be the same flaws of any democratic society, that the needs and rights of the minorities are neglected in lieu of the majority. Any discourse regarding a change in the mode of government is met with "But we are an Islamic state". No, we are not. Muslims live in fear of intimidation for doing majalis.

I used to criticize the Pakistani Shia for never having resisted using armed struggle and consenting to the democratic system of a nation which clearly does not share its values. However, I have since learned that they have tried to resist, in Gilgit, but the uprising was put down swiftly.

A strong case can be built to put the Pakistani government on trial for crimes committed against the Shia.

As we have observed with Israel, building a nation based on religion leads, with absolute certainty, to ethnic cleansing of minorities. Thus, the new nation will not be based on the rules of a particular religion, but religion will play an organizational and emblematic role.

What is important right now is forging the identity of Shiism to the extent that we have our own flags, anthems, and spirits. Begin by dumping everything Pakistani. Refuse to integrate entirely with the enemy culture, this includes Western culture as well as the notorious anti-Shia culture. Understand the struggle of other Muslims such as the Ahmadiya. Today, many Shia Muslims, including my parents, support apartheid against Ahmadis. However, anybody who seeks to resist both Western colonialism as well as Sunni colonialism must be willing to fight alongside others who share this struggle.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, MuhammadFreeman said:

this is an excellent opportunity for Shias in Pakistan to call for an independent state.

Lots of people now are coming up with their own ideas for creation of new states, like Urduistan. 

Edited by Liggel

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Guest Ali Ali

After seeing all of the persecution of Muslims in India, you really want to call for the creation of a separate state for Shia Muslims or non-cooperation and destabilization of Pakistan? 

The modern anti-Shia attitude of some segments of Pakistani society is due to Saudi funding and propagation of Wahhabi and Salafi thinking among Sunnis not because Pakistanis are bad people or because they are out to get Shias. The Sauds have a deliberate policy of spreading anti-Shia rhetoric and anti-Shia propaganda in Sunni majority countries in order to mitigate what they view as Iranian influence. Many of these extremists would normally never be taken seriously or get much funding but because of Saudi funding these extremist preachers thrive and are able to teach this poison to anyone that's simply willing to listen.

Pakistanis face a situation that other Muslim countries don't and that's the reality of being the minority in the face of an overwhelming Hindu majority among South Asians. Any disunity among South Asian Muslims only goes one step forward to being subjugated by Hindutva ideology and Hindus and turned into second and even third class citizens in our own homeland by Hindus who want to erase all traces of Islamic history and culture from South Asia. 

You are calling for armed struggle or complete separation from a democratic state for Twelver Shia Muslims when armed uprising for political power isn't even part of Twelver doctrine. To my knowledge there are very few if any Zaidi Muslims in Pakistan, and Twelver Muslims aren't supposed to even have political or nationalist ambitions. 

You seem ignorant of Imamiyyah which leads me to believe that you aren't even a Pakistani Shia. You want to delegitimize Shia Islam even further by associating with fringe extremist groups like the Ahmadiyya. 

You just seem like a BJP IT Cell employee or a RAW agent, no sensible Muslim or Pakistani would post such nonsense. You are putting Shia in danger by validating extremist accusations of Shia Treachery. 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Guest Ali Ali said:

You seem ignorant of Imamiyyah which leads me to believe that you aren't even a Pakistani Shia. You want to delegitimize Shia Islam even further by associating with fringe extremist groups like the Ahmadiyya. 

You just seem like a BJP IT Cell employee or a RAW agent, no sensible Muslim or Pakistani would post such nonsense. You are putting Shia in danger by validating extremist accusations of Shia Treachery. 

Agreed

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How about the Shia of Pakistan instead demand for an independent state carved out of Hindustan as well as end of atrocities upon the Muslims there with such reparations and pardon from every last pagan living there not just Modi and RSS?

 

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Guest WanderingNomad

Lol makes a thread about women protests but gets shifted toward Shia independent state. 

If this women march is about girls having intimacy whenever they want with whoever they want then it's about destabilizing Pakistan. A society will be destroyed if adultry is normalized.

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13 minutes ago, Guest WanderingNomad said:

Lol makes a thread about women protests but gets shifted toward Shia independent state. 

If this women march is about girls having intimacy whenever they want with whoever they want then it's about destabilizing Pakistan. A society will be destroyed if adultry is normalized.

Agreed

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I think this whole thing labeling the womens march as some " free sex " march is pure Wahabi propaganda. One or two transgenders slogans or placards dosnt make the whole movement gay.

Last time I went to Pakistan I could see how Pakistani men treat women. Basically men are to lazy to even get up and get water for themselves. Wife's are treated as servants. 

What really is sad is when you see women who went to medical school treated as maids. 

Pakistani men really needs to show more respect to women. It's a shame. Who here hasnt heard about a relative getting married and being treated like crap or being blamed for giving birth to a disabled child or inability to have boys.

Edited by pakistanyar

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9 hours ago, pakistanyar said:

I think this whole thing labeling the womens march as some " free sex " march is pure Wahabi propaganda. One or two transgenders slogans or placards dosnt make the whole movement gay.

Last time I went to Pakistan I could see how Pakistani men treat women. Basically men are to lazy to even get up and get water for themselves. Wife's are treated as servants. 

What really is sad is when you see women who went to medical school treated as maids. 

Pakistani men really needs to show more respect to women. It's a shame. Who here hasnt heard about a relative getting married and being treated like crap or being blamed for giving birth to a disabled child or inability to have boys.

Who raises these men who treat women like this? This sounds like a vicious cycle to me... 

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You think hazaras will get along with Shias of tohkar niaz beg ? And either with rizvia of Karachi?

Language shared culture and local identify will always be more important than sectarian orientation.

This is a non-starter your Shia state.Even if we cobble together something like this,  it will lead to Shia extremism with one marja followers dominating over others with ismaili,  khojas etc sidelined and further splinter groups being formed.

Regarding women's march it's a little late to be concerned about that, we let the genie out of the bottle when a woman like Benazir became the PM.Once you let woman out of the house she will demand more and more.If you want to solve this problem tell the WOMEN to stay in their houses at all times, remove them from politics workplace,  education etc.

Empowering them economically is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL 

 

 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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22 hours ago, Guest WanderingNomad said:

Lol makes a thread about women protests but gets shifted toward Shia independent state. 

If this women march is about girls having intimacy whenever they want with whoever they want then it's about destabilizing Pakistan. A society will be destroyed if adultry is normalized.

Right on buddy , massive human rights violations of poor and  minorities ,  epidemic of corruption , scarcity of basic amenities like clean water , illiteracy and perennial nepotism but what would destroy society is showing cleavage and ankles?

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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19 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

but what would destroy society is showing cleavage and ankles?

Well they're certainly not helping solve those aforementioned issues when they focus on "showing cleavage and ankles".

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So its ok to embrace moral poverty if you are economically poor? This movement has no intentions of easing the sufferings of poor women. They are practically limited to and targeting the burghers. There are close to a thousand illegal loose woman houses set up in the city of Lahore alone and these women want such things to be constitutionally and socially protected, tired of bribing the police.

Islam was/is a religion of economically poor. Moral poverty stays with the rich.

 

Edited by The Green Knight

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On 3/10/2020 at 4:39 AM, Liggel said:

 

Lots of people now are coming up with their own ideas for creation of new states, like Urduistan. 

On 3/10/2020 at 4:14 AM, MuhammadFreeman said:

However, this is an excellent opportunity for Shias in Pakistan to call for an independent state.

Salam you must read story of Abbasids that how they fooled Shia Muslims for overthrowing Ummayids but after their success, they started oppressing of Shia Muslims worser than Ummayids that such seperationist groups will start oppression of Shia Muslims after their success worser than current governments of India & Pakistan. 

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19 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

So its ok to embrace moral poverty if you are economically poor? This movement has no intentions of easing the sufferings of poor women. They are practically limited to and targeting the burghers. There are close to a thousand illegal loose woman houses set up in the city of Lahore alone and these women want such things to be constitutionally and socially protected, tired of bribing the police.

Islam was/is a religion of economically poor. Moral poverty stays with the rich.

 

Economic poverty is not the issue read my posts again

U only see immortality in women's fashion and personal character?

If you make reforms on Marco level then we can empower men economically and then we can ban women from work , education , public place altogether and this movement will die from within 

Without that u are fighting a losing battle 

 

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14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you must read story of Abbasids that how they fooled Shia Muslims for overthrowing Ummayids but after their success, they started oppressing of Shia Muslims worser than Ummayids that such seperationist groups will start oppression of Shia Muslims after their success worser than current governments of India & Pakistan. 

Tsk tsk bro atleast be kinder to Abu Muslim khorasani 

In any case abbassids atleast got rid of Arab fascists ummayyads 

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On 3/11/2020 at 8:45 AM, habib e najjaar said:

Who raises these men who treat women like this? This sounds like a vicious cycle to me... 

Bhai in Pakistan liberals employ kids as servants in their homes , their wives would hit their maids.while they debate voltaire and Kant over chai and samosas ( my personal experience)

Its like Victorian England with its facade of ostentatious piety  hypocrisy , economic exploitation of weak and some elements of moral depravity 

Where is our oscar wilde?

But Pakistan was very good to my family despite being Shia and "muhajir " so can’t complain , just grateful we were born in the right time 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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4 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Bhai in Pakistan liberals employ kids as servants in their homes , their wives would hit their maids.while they debate voltaire and Kant over chai and samosas ( my personal experience)

Its like Victorian England with its facade of ostentatious piety  hypocrisy , economic exploitation of weak and some elements of moral depravity 

Where is our oscar wilde?

But Pakistan was very good to my family despite being Shia and "muhajir " so can’t complain , just grateful we were born in the right time 

My specific worry is that it is these very oppressed women are raising the next generations of oppressive men. So who is at the core of a system that is oppressive to women? Is it women, or were they forced into such behavior in the first place by economic disadvantage etc? I have heard at least two stories of oppressed women from Pakistan on ShiaChat, and a significant proportion of their oppression was caused by mothers in law, sisters in law, mistresses/girlfriends/female cousins of the man. Do women contribute very significantly to the cycle of oppression?

Edited by habib e najjaar

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4 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Bhai in Pakistan liberals employ kids as servants in their homes , their wives would hit their maids.while they debate voltaire and Kant over chai and samosas ( my personal experience)

That's the thing. Its just those liberal women. Those poor maids that get mistreated will eat status quo while the ugly burgher ladies get the right to wear less, fornicate more and act macho in public. Stuff like that. Have you read their placards or the sorts of thems in their little march? If it were a genuine movement powered by indigenous people for the actually downtrodden women there would be no criticism. The movement and its atheist founder specifically target Islam and eastern cultural values while being funded by foreign countries.

Women in Pakistan are allowed to and have been working peacefully for decades. They have plenty of representation in assembly and senate, universities and elsewhere, everywhere. And they receive supportive legislation now and then (without such "movement"). The poor ones have some of their problems which they have had throughout history. But this movement is not at all going to lead to something like the French revolution. Far, far from all that as I wrote.

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10 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Tsk tsk bro atleast be kinder to Abu Muslim khorasani 

In any case abbassids atleast got rid of Arab fascists ummayyads 

Salam I didn’t say anything against Abu Muslim Khorasani , anyway he was an Iranian that he gathered Iranians from Sunni & Shia under  one banner with slogan of “ bringing back power to family of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) “ but Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) exposed lie of Abbasids & didn’t make allegiance with him that at the end Abbasids betrayed him & all Iranians from both Shia & Sunni even they massacred whole of Barmaki family that were their Iranian advisors & replaced Turks instead of them but they kept them as Arab elites over all of them. 

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51 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam I didn’t say anything against Abu Muslim Khorasani , anyway he was an Iranian that he gathered Iranians from Sunni & Shia under  one banner with slogan of “ bringing back power to family of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) “ but Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) exposed lie of Abbasids & didn’t make allegiance with him that at the end Abbasids betrayed him & all Iranians from both Shia & Sunni even they massacred whole of Barmaki family that were their Iranian advisors & replaced Turks instead of them but they kept them as Arab elites over all of them. 

Yes 

I'm very intrigued by BEhafarid the enigmatic iranian Prophet of that time 

Persians are the french of Middle East always at the forefront of philosophy arts culture 

Turks are the germans[ brave soldiers and administrators] and arabs are the British [ traders and merchants]

 

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On 3/11/2020 at 4:36 AM, Guest WanderingNomad said:

If this women march is about girls having intimacy whenever they want with whoever they want then it's about destabilizing Pakistan.

Having intimacy wherever, whenever and with whoever is a trait of the libertarian ideology. They want to detach the individual from all community including family. Some feminists is like that too but far from all. Some feminists want all women to be lesbians. Some Feminists want to ban prostitution. Feminism is a lot of things. Not all of it is bad even though some are misguided.

On 3/11/2020 at 4:36 AM, Guest WanderingNomad said:

A society will be destroyed if adultry is normalized.

I would say that the family is destroyed when adultery is condoned, but adultery is pretty much normalized in most western societies.

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Pakistani culture is more misogynistic than any other Islamic country that I know of. I grew up in Saudi Arabia. In the eastern province and in Medina, the majlis are segregated properly by gender. In Pakistan they still need the women to cook clean and serve the food to the men, so there isn't proper segregation. In Saudi Shia cultures the men serve and make food for other men while the women do the same for other women. My point is, Pakistani misogyny is rooted more in Hindu tradition than it is on the basis of religion.

 

And yes, we Shia share one struggle with the feminist of Pakistan and that is, the struggle against the mullah way. Imagine the damage we can cause to the Sunni extremists in that country by bringing this up.

 

And to the people saying I'm a Hindu troll or whatever, I've called out the Indians on their Hindu nationalism before when discussing treatment of Shias in kashmir.

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On 3/10/2020 at 11:36 PM, Guest WanderingNomad said:

Lol makes a thread about women protests but gets shifted toward Shia independent state. 

If this women march is about girls having intimacy whenever they want with whoever they want then it's about destabilizing Pakistan. A society will be destroyed if adultry is normalized.

This forum is for Shia Muslims to have a space and no such space exists. We have no voice in the so called Muslim community. So expect every single one of my posts to relate back to the Shia struggle

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wear a burka and go out to see how women are treated in the public sphere. from market places to public transport. if you’re seeing placards of women asking men to be gentle in the bed is because there’s many cases of newly wed women ending up in the hospital because of their men. 

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3 minutes ago, MuhammadFreeman said:

In Pakistan they still need the women to cook clean and serve the food to the men, so there isn't proper segregation

I have lived my whole life in Pakistan and I have never been to any majlis where women served food to men!! If it's a big majlis then professional cooks are hired, if it's a small scale then women might cook but there is nothing misogynist about that.  

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https://images.dawn.com/news/1184782

I am scared. Imran Khan is so much like Zia ul Haq. I was very young during his rule but I am now experiencing how religious hypocrites can be so dangerous. The only difference is that Zia ul Haq was against Shias, and Imran Khan's party is against women. We are really going backwards regarding rights of women. I cannot believe I used to complain during Peoples party and especially Nawaz league times. They were much much better than Imran Khan. The most scary thing is that he is still so popular, so he will remain in power for a long time.  The way people are supporting the bakwas of this man Khalil ur rahman qamar is shocking. It's as if they have become blind and deaf and they cannot see how clear is it that this man did something wrong. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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Funny thing is that Pakistani women have always been more religious than men. Men don't pray or fast, they commit all the sins which women cannot even think about and they are mostly against mullahs. But now since mullahs have started preaching misogynist teachings, all of a sudden all the men have become super religious and they are acting like asking for women's rights is equal to opposing Islam. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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7 hours ago, Triggered said:

wear a burka and go out to see how women are treated in the public sphere. from market places to public transport. if you’re seeing placards of women asking men to be gentle in the bed is because there’s many cases of newly wed women ending up in the hospital because of their men. 

What do u expect? Most Pakistani men are virgin on their wedding night 

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2 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

Funny thing is that Pakistani women have always been more religious than men. Men don't pray or fast, they commit all the sins which women cannot even think about and they are mostly against mullahs. But now since mullahs have started preaching misogynist teachings, all of a sudden all the men have become super religious and they are acting like asking for women's rights is equal to opposing Islam. 

Ummm what a horrible generalization 

Btw mullahs in the west constantly support women's rights and other feminist mumbo jumbo 

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