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How to reply to this argument by atheist?

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Posted

How to reply to this? Please I am lost.

Quote

If God doesn’t exist, no reason to worship.

If God exists and doesn’t care about worship, no reason to worship.

If God exists and demands worship, or threatens eternal damnation if not worshipped, God has some insecurity and immaturity issues and needs to grow up. Not my problem. No reason to worship

 

Guest Pschological Warfare
Posted
32 minutes ago, Guest Help said:

How to reply to this? Please I am lost.

 

Define Worship? 

The fact that someone has this idea that they can dictate to the Creator, is very childish, and they need to get of out the entitlement mentality and not consider The God and poor mommy/daddy whom they can manipulate or dictate to. 

If one acknowledge or not acknowledge The God, it does not have an impact on The God. If one worship The God or not It does not impact the God. The God by definition is Free form ALL such conjecture of ones limited mind. 

It is in our interest to acknowledge The Reality and submit to it, If you had a morning, afternoon and end of day meeting with your boss at work, it keeps you focused and you will have very productive day, as you reported each segments progress and received guidance if there was any shortfall you used it to better you performance in the next segment of that day. You reported and you received continued guidance. Getting up and instead of having your mind wondering in all different direction and be burdened with fears of all kind, its better to stay focused and understand your job for that day, like the corporations or any viable business usually  have a morning huddle or conference call or a meeting to keep the employees focused on the task ( do you know why they do this ? ) Usually the unproductive and lazy ones dread this occasions for the obvious reasons and you know they are not going anywhere in the corporation and we the productive ones avoid these kinds so not to have a negative influence on them. Mid day and  End of day wrap up is also very productive. Next morning, the same routine, lazy ones call it boring, and repetitive bu the productive ones knows it Value.

I would rather wake up with knowing that I am not in charge of everything their are controllable things and there are uncontrollabe things, I have a purpose and I need to focus on that plan, and I have a Guide to get me through. Instead of waking up with fear/anxiety of what is in store an how I will manage all that, may be take an pill to subdue my anxiety /depression and same is true during the day and evening, pill are "Gap fill" to avoid anxiety/depression. 

So, we do not pray and sit idle for some miracle to happen, which is the usual mind of people undermining religion. We pray/(one on one meeting) for guidance and work towards our goals. Using our God giving Intellect. lets say you were to pray to have a productive day. It will not happen unless you actually show up to  work and work without fear/anxiety/depression/stress using your intellect to accomplish what you intend to accomplish with the Help/Guidance of your Manager. 

-------------------------------

Real Worship is to acknowledge/submit to  HIS(عزّ وجلّ) command. Otherwise taking the Name/or reciting it million time, while undermining HIS(عزّ وجلّ) command/instructions is hollow and meaningless. 

If you say to your Father, I acknowledge you and love you. But you do not do as he instructs you to do. First claim is invalid. To acknowledge and love means to follow instructions. 

 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {30}

[Pickthal 2:30] And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the Earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

........

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ {34}

[Pickthal 2:34] And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

  • Forum Administrators
Posted
8 hours ago, Guest Help said:

How to reply to this? Please I am lost.

Worship is not something to address the ego of the Creator, it is rather, an acknowledgement by the created about their position in creation.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
6 hours ago, Guest Help said:

If God exists and doesn’t care about worship, no reason to worship.

This statement comes from lack of understanding of what God is and also from considering worship as a burden.

If a person understands what God is, he would worship Him even if God throws him into hell. 

  • Veteran Member
Posted

Before reading the above responses, here is my suggestion:

"lf God doesn't exist, then there is no reason to worship."  --lsIamicaIly, a kufr position.

"lf God exists and doesn't care about worship, (then there is) no reason to worship."  He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does warn. The decision is ours if we "care" and He-(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). reveals Ayat 45:34 [forget Me-(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). and l-(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). forget you --shortened by editor] on the Last Day.

"lf God demands . . . "   As writ, He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). warns. The idea of "demand" carries with it "force of personality" for which He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). has no need because He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). reveals the attributes al-Haqq -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). and al-Qadyr -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Finally, rhetroically, how can al-Khalaq -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). of All Things be "insecure"?

  • 3 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
On 3/1/2020 at 12:22 PM, eThErEaL said:

 

 

To make this more concrete:

When someone is so good to you, your natural response is to be thankful.  For example, someone paid for your college, or someone paid for your surgery when you needed it (and when you couldn’t afford it), gave you food when you were hungry. Etc.  imagine if you were to not appreciate it or acknowledge it.  What does that say about you?  Would you not feel shameful if you were to look at yourself objectively?  

Now, what has a God not given us?  

Worshipping God is nothing but practicing thankfulness.  God has prescribed it to us for our own good not for Himself.

One should in fact be thankful for being thankful to God (for worshipping God).


 

Sometimes a child is not thankful, when a parent feeds and clothes them. But this doesn't make it reasonable for a parent to spank their child if the child doesn't say thank you. Regardless of the question of if a child should say thank you, is the question of if mankind should be punished by hellfire (potentially forever, burning skin, pain etc.) for not being thankful.

Edited by iCenozoic
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Sometimes a child is not thankful, when a parent feeds and clothes them. But this doesn't make it reasonable for a parent to spank their child if the child doesn't say thank you. Regardless of the question of if a child should say thank you, is the question of if mankind should be punished by hellfire (potentially forever, burning skin, pain etc.) for not being thankful.

Disobedience or ungratefulness to your parents may land one in the hellfire (assuming their commands don't go against God's law, then the opposite is true, unless one is being forced against their will, or assuming lack of genuine repentance) ... and God gives us much more than our parents do. Everything is from the mercy of God, and belongs to God. Submission to other than God is the issue here. It corrupts the soul and society (even though we might not see it). Plus, it's only the obstinate unbelievers that will be punished for their disbelief, I.e. those who knew the truth but arrogantly rejected it.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Disobedience or ungratefulness to your parents may land one in the hellfire (assuming their commands don't go against God's law, then the opposite is true, unless one is being forced against their will) ... and God gives us much more than our parents do. Everything is from the mercy of God, and belongs to God. Submission to other than God is the issue here. It corrupts the soul and society (even though we might not see it). Plus, it's only the obstinate unbelievers that will be punished for their disbelief, I.e. those who knew the truth but arrogantly rejected it.

The question is, if someone chooses not to pray, should God send them to burn in hell?

If God didn't do so, the it would suggest that the OP lists a false premise. In which case, the best response would be to point out the falsehood that God sends people to hell for not praying.

If God does send people to hell for not praying, then the original question would remain. Should a parent beat their child, if the child doesn't appreciate what the parent has given them?

And should a child say thank you, if they believe that doing otherwise would result in a spanking?

Edited by iCenozoic
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Sometimes a child is not thankful, when a parent feeds and clothes them. But this doesn't make it reasonable for a parent to spank their child if the child doesn't say thank you. Regardless of the question of if a child should say thank you, is the question of if mankind should be punished by hellfire (potentially forever, burning skin, pain etc.) for not being thankful.

Yes.  We can learn a lot about God from how parents generally behave with their beloved children.  It is not God who punishes us, it we who punish ourselves.  Hell is a creation of our inner states.  Let me give you an example.  When you keep thinking about someone or something all day long, and you fall asleep and you dream.  You might even have dreams about what you were thinking about during the day.  The dream is the outward manifestation of your the subconscious.  So, in an analogous way, Hell and Paradise is the outward manifestation of our inward disposition.  If we were miserable because we have been  ungrateful and unappreciative, this disposition will become manifest to us in a concrete way.  

Edited by eThErEaL
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Should a parent beat their child, if the child doesn't appreciate what the parent has given them?

Not necessarily. The premise doesn't follow the conclusion. You are equating worldly punishment that doesn't take all factors and nuances into consideration, with God's punishment--God knows best. God is all-knowing, all-beneficent, all-merciful, all-just, almighty. God is the Creator/Sustainer/Lord of His creation, thus beyond this creation. He is beyond space, time, matter, location, images, imaginations, conceptions, limitations, etc., and has always existed since before his creations, and will always exist. In this way, He is absolute, One, reality, eternal, omnipresent, boundless.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
  • Advanced Member
Posted
6 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Not necessarily. The premise doesn't follow the conclusion. You are equating worldly punishment that doesn't take all factors and nuances into consideration, with God's punishment--God knows best. God is all-knowing, all-beneficent, all-merciful, all-just, almighty. God is the Creator/Sustainer/Lord of His creation, thus beyond this creation. He is beyond space, time, matter, location, images, imaginations, conceptions, etc., and has always existed since before his creations, and will always exist. In this way, He is absolute, One, reality, eternal, omnipresent.

I'm just repeating the premise laid out in the original post.

If God does not send non-prayers to hell, and if we agree that God should not send non-prayers to hell, then this is the response for the OP.  Because the OP suggests that God sends people to hell for not praying 

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

I'm just repeating the premise laid out in the original post.

If God does not send non-prayers to hell, and if we agree that God should not send non-prayers to hell, then this is the response for the OP.  Because the OP suggests that God sends people to hell for not praying 

Those who know they should pray will be held accountable / punished for not praying [otherwise you argue that there is no one attainable truth]. Source: https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa283 
Those who don't know, won't be held accountable. God doesn't need our prayers, it's for our own good, to gain God consciousness, to seek closeness to God.

On 3/1/2020 at 3:34 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Worship is not something to address the ego of the Creator, it is rather, an acknowledgement by the created about their position in creation.

 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
  • Advanced Member
Posted
14 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  We can learn a lot about God from how parents generally behave with their beloved children.  It is not God who punishes us, it we who punish ourselves.  Hell is a creation of our inner states.  Let me give you an example.  When you keep thinking about someone or something all day long, and you fall asleep and you dream.  You might even have dreams about what you were thinking about during the day.  The dream is the outward manifestation of your the subconscious.  So, in an analogous way, Hell and Paradise is the outward manifestation of our inward disposition.  If we were miserable because we have been  ungrateful and unappreciative, this disposition will become manifest to us in a concrete way.  

This is a different response than your original as well. It suggests that damnation isn't necessarily hellfire and brimstone. It almost sounds like damnation is a product of our ourselves, or as you put it, our own inward disposition. As opposed to being something externally created by God for the purpose of punishment. This is a better answer than simply suggesting that people ought to be grateful or thankful. It points out an issue with the premises of the original post.

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

This is a different response than your original as well. It suggests that damnation isn't necessarily hellfire and brimstone. It almost sounds like damnation is a product of our ourselves, or as you put it, our own inward disposition. As opposed to being something externally created by God for the purpose of punishment. This is a better answer than simply suggesting that people ought to be grateful or thankful. It points out an issue with the premises of the original post.

True, but this may be from your confusion as to what eschatology (afterlife) entails in Islam. We believe we will be in our graves going over our life and all our actions and regretting until judgment day occurs, where we will then be placed in {heaven} or {hell} or {hell then heaven}. Also, through repentance to God in this world, He will absolutely remove our sins, except for Shirk which God forgives conditionally.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
  • Advanced Member
Posted
1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

True, but this may be from your confusion as to eschatology (afterlife) entails in Islam. We believe we will be in our graves going over our sins and regretting until judgment day occurs, where we will then be placed in {heaven} or {hell} or {hell then heaven}. Also, through repentance to God in this world, He will absolutely remove our sins, except for Shirk which God forgives conditionally.

The question is how to respond to commentary of the OP. It's not about what I think, it's about how to respond to what is essentially the question of if God should send people to hell for not worshipping. And I think Ethereal last response is more appropriate than his first because it changes the entire discussion and even the understanding of what damnation is.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
2 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

The question is how to respond to commentary of the OP. It's not about what I think, it's about how to respond to what is essentially the question of if God should send people to hell for not worshipping. And I think Ethereal last response is more appropriate than his first because it changes the entire discussion and even the understanding of what damnation is.

Not really, he was making an analogy that helps us understand heaven/hell.

39 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

It is not God who punishes us, it we who punish ourselves.  Hell is a creation of our inner states.  Let me give you an example.

He likely doesn't mean this literally. He is basically saying that sin is punishment in itself.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
On 3/1/2020 at 6:11 PM, Guest Help said:

How to reply to this? Please I am lost.

 

The statements by the atheist contain mocking and blasphemy. In such cases we are ordered by God in the Qur'an to get up and go unless they change the subject.

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

The statements by the atheist contain mocking and blasphemy. In such cases we are ordered by God in the Qur'an to get up and go unless they change the subject.

This is true insofar as I refuse to believe that Atheists genuinely believe what that Atheist said to OP. It's simply a lazy dismissive argument. As if they couldn't possibly have considered that worship is commanded for our own benefit, and that we must be grateful to God [for providing us with everything, including the most appropriate/beneficial situations through His mercy/love/compassion, despite us failing His tests]. Instead, they disparage believers by making a creation of God with wants and needs. On the flipside, you do have people with genuine intentions.

Edit: the stuff in [brackets] is not reasonable for somebody to expect, but the rest is.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
  • Advanced Member
Posted
1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Not really, he was making an analogy that helps us understand heaven/hell.

He likely doesn't mean this literally. He is basically saying that sin is punishment in itself.

I don't know, maybe he can elaborate 

  • Advanced Member
Posted
1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

This is true insofar as I refuse to believe that Atheists genuinely believe what that Atheist said to OP. It's simply a lazy dismissive argument. As if they couldn't possibly have considered that worship is commanded for our own benefit, and that we must be grateful to God [for providing us with everything, including the most appropriate/beneficial situations through His mercy/love/compassion, despite us failing His tests]. Instead, they disparage believers by making a creation of God with wants and needs. On the flipside, you do have people with genuine intentions.

Edit: the stuff in [brackets] is not reasonable for somebody to expect, but the rest is.

I want to thank you and completely agree and like and send prayer to you at the same time. I guess the level of technology on this forum doesn't allow it yet, so I tell you in writing instead :)

  • Advanced Member
Posted
24 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

I want to thank you and completely agree and like and send prayer to you at the same time. I guess the level of technology on this forum doesn't allow it yet, so I tell you in writing instead :)

I wish the same to you. :)

  • Advanced Member
Posted
3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

despite us failing His tests

Also, we are able to pass any of God's tests that He gives us, no matter how difficult, as God doesn't burden a soul beyond its capacity.

Posted
4 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

This is a different response than your original as well. It suggests that damnation isn't necessarily hellfire and brimstone. It almost sounds like damnation is a product of our ourselves, or as you put it, our own inward disposition. As opposed to being something externally created by God for the purpose of punishment. This is a better answer than simply suggesting that people ought to be grateful or thankful. It points out an issue with the premises of the original post.

I believe there will be an experience of an actual Hell Fire or Paradise.  It is analogous to the dream analogy.  The dream is your inward disposition displayed in a images and forms of a world.  The life after death will be an entire world (a real concrete world) created by our own state of being.  God isn’t punishing us here, it is we who punish ourselves.  

 

  • Advanced Member
Posted
21 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I believe there will be an experience of an actual Hell Fire or Paradise.  It is analogous to the dream analogy.  The dream is your inward disposition displayed in a images and forms of a world.  The life after death will be an entire world (a real concrete world) created by our own state of being.  God isn’t punishing us here, it is we who punish ourselves.  

 

Interesting.

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

Relevant: 

Quote

Who said sins of insignificantly of few years does not make the person to deserve eternal hell? How did you measure the value of sin? This is only people imagination and reasoning that is far from the truth. People make these reasoning and imaginations about what can God be or not, as limiting him, and all of these limitations is not God and have nothing to do with Him.

5 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Not necessarily. The premise doesn't follow the conclusion. You are equating worldly punishment that doesn't take all factors and nuances into consideration, with God's punishment--God knows best. God is all-knowing, all-beneficent, all-merciful, all-just, almighty. God is the Creator/Sustainer/Lord of His creation, thus beyond this creation. He is beyond space, time, matter, location, images, imaginations, conceptions, limitations, etc., and has always existed since before his creations, and will always exist. In this way, He is absolute, One, reality, eternal, omnipresent, boundless.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
  • Advanced Member
Posted
22 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

God isn’t punishing us here, it is we who punish ourselves.

But how will we be made aware of our sins? Through God. So God is punishing us... it's God's wrath, it's God's action.

Also, source for us punishing ourselves?

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

But how will we be made aware of our sins?

Through “tajassum al-a’mal”

let me quote you a selection from Sheikh shomali:

Quote

Heaven and hell

There are many facts about heaven and hell. We try to explain only those facts which help us in our project. Heaven and hell have been created now. If we had purified ourselves, we would be able to see them. Imam ‘Ali says about the pious: “To them paradise is as though they have seen it and are enjoying its favours. To them hell is also as if they have seen it and are suffering punishment in it.

The Glorious Qur'an also speaks about hell: “Nay! If you had known with a certain knowledge you should most certainly have seen hell” (102:5,6)

In this way we can say that our future is now present. Whoever is good, is now in heaven and criminals or sinners are now in hell. I hope the reader remembers that the companion of the Noble Prophet (S) who reached certainty said that he could declare among those who were with the Prophet who were people of hell and who were people of heaven. The Prophet (S) has also said that during the ascension, 'miraj' he saw workers (angels) planting trees. Sometimes they were working and sometimes they stopped working. Then he was told that when a person recites certain invocations of God a tree is planted for him and when he stops no tree is planted for him. This tradition like many other traditions shows that punishments and rewards are synchronous with the actions.

Three kinds of relationships can be conceived between acts and rewards or punishments:

Conventional relationship: Ordinary rewards or punishments are decided (defined) by some law-refiners. So they vary in different societies. For example, penalties for breaking traffic laws are from this kind.

Causal relationship: Sometimes rewards or punishments are effects of the acts. For example, when a person drinks wine, one of his punishments is loss of his health; or if a student studies well one of his rewards is to learn his lessons. The loss of health and knowledge are effects brought into being by those acts.

Unity: Sometimes rewards or punishments are nothing other than the actions. They are just the realities of those actions made manifest in another universe.

According to the Glorious Qur'an in the Hereafter the realities of the acts will be seen. This is what we mean by the embodiment of deeds (tajassum al-a 'mat): “On that day men shall come forth in sundry bodies that they may be shown their works. So he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it', (99:&8) “(As for) those who swallow the property of the orphans unjustly, surely they only swallow flre~into their bellies and they shall enter burning fire.” (4:10)

According to these and some other verses we will see our acts themselves. if we had that sight today we would be able to see their realities today. Whoever is swallowing the property of the orphans unjustly is really swallowing fire now. Whoever is back-biting is really eating the flesh of his dead brother or sister now. So we should take care of our acts, otherwise we will enter hell just now (not only in the future). if we think constantly about the ugliness of the sins and their realities we will not commit any sin.

 

Quote

 

Through God. So God is punishing us... it's God's wrath, it's God's action.

It is true that everything happens through, by and with God.  Nothing happens on its own.  Everything is God’s.  We should however ponder on the fact that there is a reason we can say that Mercy is a name of God’s Essence but we cannot say that about wrath.  
 

In the Fatiha we recite:

”not those of who have earned wrath”.  The passive “maghdoob” is used.  It doesn’t say “not the path of those that Thou is wrathful upon”.  


God is Absolute Mercy.  True and Absolute Mercy is is so absolute and pure and infinite that it has no opposite or contrary.  It is a non-duality.  Just as God has no opposite, His Mercy (which is what He is) has no opposite.  Nor can we say that that He is a duality comprising of both Mercy and of Wrath.  Things in the creation have opposites, like day and night, good and bad, mercy and wrath, hell and paradise. But not God.  God manifests Himself  through the creation, and the creation is the creation of opposites. 

The only way wrath can be attributed to God is if we consider wrath inasmuch as it is a hidden mercy of God.  But before ascribing it to God, it should be truly appreciated as a hidden mercy (as something beautifully-majestic and love inspiring—-not just rationally or conceptually but feeing wise). ICenonozic (and most of us) do not see Hell and Punishment as a hidden mercy or as a mercy “at all”.  So how can I ascribe Hell and Punishment to God?  

 

Quote

Also, source for us punishing ourselves?

إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لِأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاءَ 
17:7

whether you do good or evil it is to your own souls––”

Edited by eThErEaL
Guest someone
Posted
On 3/1/2020 at 5:34 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Worship is not something to address the ego of the Creator, it is rather, an acknowledgement by the created about their position in creation.

I think that is a beautiful answer

  • 1 month later...
  • Advanced Member
Posted
On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

Define Worship? 

The fact that someone has this idea that they can dictate to the Creator, is very childish, and they need to get out of the entitlement mentality and not consider The God and poor mommy/daddy whom they can manipulate or dictate to. 

If one acknowledge or not acknowledge The God, it does not have an impact on The God.

It is in our interest to acknowledge The Reality and submit to it,

Based on other parts of your post, in essence, this seems fatalistic, since you compare Islam to a corporation.

On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

a morning, afternoon and end of day meeting with your boss at work

it keeps you focused

you will have very productive day

each segments progress and received guidance

if there was any shortfall you used it to better you performance in the next segment of that day.

You reported and you received continued guidance.

It is interesting to note that you use analogies from the world of business and apply them to religion. A common atheist refrain is that religion merely reflects the structures and institutions of society.

On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

Getting up and instead of having your mind wondering in all different direction and be burdened with fears of all kind,

its better to stay focused and understand your job for that day,

There are many narrations that point to fear and anxiety as being benefits meant to spur further obedience to the God. So this statement is contradictory.

On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

like the corporations or any viable business usually have a morning huddle or conference call or a meeting to keep the employees focused on the task ( do you know why they do this ? )

Usually the unproductive and lazy ones dread this occasions for the obvious reasons and you know they are not going anywhere in the corporation

and we the productive ones avoid these kinds so not to have a negative influence on them. Mid day and  End of day wrap up is also very productive.

Next morning, the same routine, lazy ones call it boring, and repetitive but the productive ones knows it Value.

Again, I see the same theme: Islam as corporation.

On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

I would rather wake up with knowing that I am not in charge of everything there are controllable things and there are uncontrollable things, I have a purpose and I need to focus on that plan, and I have a Guide to get me through. Instead of waking up with fear/anxiety of what is in store an how I will manage all that,

maybe take a pill to subdue my anxiety /depression and same is true during the day and evening, pill are "Gap fill" to avoid anxiety/depression.

But there are many studies and other things that point to the negative impact of medications and pharmaceuticals on spirituality via the pineal gland.

So “taking pills” will merely add side effects that outweigh the benefits. The statement does not help people who actually have anxiety or depression.

On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

So, we do not pray and sit idle for some miracle to happen, which is the usual mind of people undermining religion.

We pray/(one on one meeting) for guidance and work towards our goals. Using our God giving Intellect.

let’s say you were to pray to have a productive day. It will not happen unless you actually show up to work and work without fear/anxiety/depression/stress using your intellect to accomplish what you intend to accomplish with the Help/Guidance of your Manager. 

-------------------------------

Again, numerous narrations point to the benefits of fear, anxiety, and (positive) stress as motivators.

On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

Real Worship is to acknowledge/submit to  HIS(عزّ وجلّ) command.

Otherwise taking the Name/or reciting it million time, while undermining HIS(عزّ وجلّ) command/instructions is hollow and meaningless.

Yet many narrations advocate both submission and reciting the Names many times. The two activities are not mutually exclusive.

On 3/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

If you say to your Father, I acknowledge you and love you. But you do not do as he instructs you to do. First claim is invalid. To acknowledge and love means to follow instructions.

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {30}

[Pickthal 2:30] And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the Earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

........

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ {34}

[Pickthal 2:34] And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

Yet the language is contradictory. If the Absolute is also Needless and does not depend on His creation, then atheists often argue that the Absolute would not require anything of His creation. This point needs to be addressed better if Islam is to rebut atheism.

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

For example, how does one address these following atheist, materialist arguments (notably the bolded and italicised sections) against Islam?

Quote

Reisner maintains that the Koran portrayed Allah as "a rich, powerful and smart capitalist".[8] In Medina, Muhammad acted not so much as a prophet and preacher but as a skillful organizer. He was successful not because people were eager to join a new religion but because they longed for a law that would unite them.[9] The Koran, Reisner continues, only guarantees the right to property and creates a “World Trade Company of Believers” (mirovaia torgovaia kompaniia veruiushchikh) under God's own leadership. Many elements in the Koran reflect a merchant's position: the prayers and rituals are not very complex and do not require “spiritual contortions”; the pilgrimage to Mecca (ḥajj) is linked to a trade fair; tithes (zakāt) is restricted to a moderate level, and believers are exhorted not to squander their money; while usury is forbidden, Muslims are encouraged to make moderate profits; and, of course, the Koran emphasizes the importance of oaths, correct measurements, and the faithful return of the deposit.[10]

The authors detected a “primitive communism” already in the activities of some of Muhammad's companions, but they found that communism was even more prominent in the tradition of Islamic Sufism. Under the cover of Sufism communist ideas and movements emerged that had nothing to do with Islam and religion whatsoever. These movements were driven by Muslims—poor nomads as well as peasants and urban craftsmen—longing to overthrow the feudal order of their times, i.e., the Abbasid, Seljukid, and Ottoman dynasties in the Near East. As examples the Navshirvanovs mentioned the Shiʿi Ismailites, the Anatolian Futūwa and Akhī organizations, and the Bektashi order of dervishes. The climax of this supposed anti-feudal Sufi communist movement was Sheikh Bedreddin of Simavna who was executed by the Ottomans in 1416 as a heretic; his disciples led peasant rebellions against Ottoman rule and set up what the Navshirvanov called the “first revolutionary government of Anatolia”.[5]

Evgenii Beliaev (1895–1964) was the only professional trained in Oriental languages among all participants in the early Soviet discourse on Islam. In his contribution to the 1930 special issue of Ateist on the origins of Islam, Beliaev argued that Islam emerged from the merchant environment of Mecca.[12] The pagan religion served the purpose of trade, and the authority of the gods in the kaaba grew with the wealth of the merchants. Islam emerged in the late 6th century as a movement of the less wealthy, “intermediary and lower Meccan bourgeoisie” against this “‘aristocracy’ of avaricious traders and pitiless usurers.”[13]

According to Beliav, a similar struggle was taking place in Medina, where some clans became dependant upon others, and especially upon the Jewish clans, whose wealth was based on “usury capital (rostovshchicheskii kapital). The gradual dissolution of the ancient tribal and clan structures in Muslim Medina must not be ascribed to the religion of Islam but rather to the development of Meccan trade capital, and in general to the transition to private property in slaves, cattle, and other possessions. “With an eagerness and love for detail that is characteristic for the petty bourgeoisie, the boring, depressing and dull Suras of the Medinan period lay down the regulations for property and inheritance as well as buying and selling”. In Medina Muhammad changed the prayer direction from Jerusalem to Mecca; “praying to the Muslim God, they bow down before the only god that they respect, namely capital.” When the “medium wealthy” traders finally took over Mecca, they reached their goal: together with the rich “Quraysh of the Center” they found themselves at the helm of the “trade capitalist organization of the Hijaz” which eventually united the tribes of Arabia.

According to Ditiakin, Marx and Engels understood that pre-Islamic Arabia was characterized by two different environments, that of nomadic Bedouins and that of settled urban traders. As the correspondences of the two thinkers show, the Bedouins could hardly be characterized as bearers of high culture, whereas the population of the southwestern Arabian peninsula was a “civilized” Oriental high culture. Obviously, Engels had access to publications on petroglyphs from Yemen, which, in his mind, reflected “the ancient, national Arabic tradition of monotheism”. However, in the centuries immediately before Muhammad the old culture of Yemen was destroyed by incursions of the Ethiopians, and consequently also the Arabian trade route to the north via Mecca was in decay. This decline of trade in the period before Muhammad was, as Engels wrote to Marx in 1853, “one of the chief factors in the Muhammadan revolution.”

Due to the course of the Islamic expansion, however, the emergent religion of Islam was soon adapted to the foundations of urban economy. Accordingly, Islam eliminated the relics of the clan-based society and became the ideology of an urban society. The old nomadic and Bedouin cultural heritage of Islam, however, turned out to be strong enough to prevent Islam from becoming dominant in Europe.

Soviet view of Islam

@AmirioTheMuzzy @Muhammed Ali

Edited by Northwest
Audience
  • Advanced Member
Posted
On 3/1/2020 at 4:11 PM, Guest Help said:

If God exists and demands worship, or threatens eternal damnation if not worshipped, God has some insecurity and immaturity issues and needs to grow up. Not my problem. No reason to worship

If a person who talks like this, then how likely are they to open and honestly listen to you in an objective way. 

Dawah is not arguing for the sake of being right. It's about calling others to the truth. I'd not respond to him to be honest as he is openly insulting Allah. Offer him some books to read or lectures to watch etc than distance yourself from such a person. 

In terms of answering his questions on a personal level. There gave been a lot off good answers already posted. And thus us a topic adresed by a Muslim scholars and the Qur'an. So easily accessible.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
20 hours ago, Northwest said:

Again, I see the same theme: Islam as corporation.

hi Islam is just not a corporation but also has more power & influence in our whole life even after death  anyway any corporation has it's influence in our worldly life but can't control us after death & Islam uses hope & reward & mercy beside fear & punishment that in worldly life these are mixed together but after death we only have  hope & reward & mercy or fear & punishment based on what we did in worldly life that key factor for acceptin our deeds is acceptance of of God/Allah & worshiping him that for prefetc reward we must choose the most prefect religion.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
On 5/5/2020 at 7:25 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi Islam is just not a corporation but also has more power & influence in our whole life even after death  anyway any corporation has it's influence in our worldly life but can't control us after death & Islam uses hope & reward & mercy beside fear & punishment that in worldly life these are mixed together but after death we only have  hope & reward & mercy or fear & punishment based on what we did in worldly life that key factor for acceptin our deeds is acceptance of of God/Allah & worshiping him that for prefetc reward we must choose the most prefect religion.

@Ashvazdanghe

First, please try to improve your level of English. You have been here long enough to learn English. It is hard for me to read run-on sentences. (Perhaps you are using Google Translate.)

Second, I was not actually calling Islam a corporation, but pointing out that “Guest Psychological Warfare” seemed to be analogising, that is, using corporate comparisons to Islam. Obviously, corporations do exert influence on this-worldly human life, whereas Islam is not about changing the structure of society for economic ends, but about reforming individuals in this life to prepare them for the Hereafter. In this sense Islam is opposed to all social welfare that is not based on Islam.

Otherwise, your post is spot on.

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