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xx._Proudshia

Homosexuality

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On 2/20/2020 at 1:40 AM, xx._Proudshia said:

Is it true that only the act of homosexuality is haram or is being gay itself a sin? I have heard that Allah doesn't hold us accountable for our thoughts it's only our actions. I hate to admit that I am gay and I didn't chose to be this way. I have these feelings naturally and I am going through a very difficult phase of my life. I haven't committed any act of homosexuality, I fulfill as much of the religious obligations as I can and I don't want to be sent to hell. So is it being a homosexual itself which is a sin or is it only the actual act which is the sin? A lot of Muslims on such posts all over social media say that being gay is haram and if a person is gay they are a sinner. I don't want to live like I sinner every moment of my life however there is nothing I can do about it. I can't just click a button and change my sexuality. I don't have any control over this.

Are they born like that-LGBT

https://www.hubeali.com/articles/AreTheyBornLikeThat_LGBT.pdf

hope this helps you

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:bismillah:

Salam alaykom dear brother

As already stated by others, the feelings themselves are not haram at all. Rather it's haram when you act on those feelings etc. 

Don't forget that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is all-merciful, this is just one of His tests. 

 

لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا

“Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear” (2:286)

 

You also have to remember that you are not alone, there are many people who have gone through this and actually managed to overcome these feelings/desires. Check out this blog by a Shia brother who had the same issue:

 

https://muslimwithssa.wordpress.com

He shares a lot of good articles on the subject and good tips. Feel free to contact him if you want someone to talk with and who has gone through the same things you are doing right now.

There are also many good Christian websites who deals with overcoming same-sex attractions, such as this one:

https://www.livehope.org/?resource=keys-to-recovery-from-same-sex-attractions

 

I pray that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes you stronger and keeps you on the straight path. Don't ever think that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hates you or that you deserve punishment for this, you definitely don't! 

Wsalam

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On 2/21/2020 at 5:08 AM, 3wliya_maryam said:

As long as those thoughts don’t lead to action, then you’re still just as faithful.

Sister, as far as I know, that is not quite true.

If someone INDULGES in those thoughts, in other words spend some tome enjoying those thoughts, it is also a sin.

And that goes also for heterosexuality.

For example, if a man thinks of a woman in a sexual manner and allows himself the continued pleasure of that thought, he is committing a sin. 

It is the same for both homosexuality and heterosexuality.

Of course, the sin of action may be bigger.

But the sin of thought is also a sin. 

On 2/21/2020 at 1:45 AM, xx._Proudshia said:

So basically I am a sinner and I deserve the same

Brother, please don't call yourself a sinner but just try to address the problem you are facing.

All human beings are sinners in some  respect.

And we must all try to improve.

As I have said above, the sin of action may be bigger than the sin of thought, but they are both sins.

And as I have also pointed out above, there is no difference between same sex and opposite sex as far as the sin of thought is concerned.

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2 hours ago, baqar said:

For example, if a man thinks of a woman in a sexual manner and allows himself the continued pleasure of that thought, he is committing a sin

Is there a hadith or link to this? As far as I know men psychologically tend to have these thoughts, so its not so easy to control them. Your intention and action are what matters

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32 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Is there a hadith or link to this? As far as I know men psychologically tend to have these thoughts, so its not so easy to control them. Your intention and action are what matters

As he said, If someone INDULGES in those thoughts, I.e. spends some time enjoying those thoughts, it is a sin.

 

I.e., no fantasizing

 

Also, consider how it leads to other sins and issues.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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8 hours ago, baqar said:

If someone INDULGES in those thoughts, in other words spend some tome enjoying those thoughts, it is also a sin

 

5 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

As he said, If someone INDULGES in those thoughts, I.e. spends some time enjoying those thoughts, it is a sin.

This is a big serious claim. It needs to supported by strong narration. You have any supportive narrations with acceptable isnad? 

Here are two narrations that reject the above notion: 

1. 

From Ibn Bukayr from Abī `Abd Allāh or Abī Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: Verily Ādam (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Lord, you have made shayṭān have mastery over me, and he (shayṭān) flows in my bloodstream, so make something for me’ So He said: ‘O Ādam, I will make for you that whoever intends from your progeny a bad (deed), he will not have anything written against him, and If does the act, a bad (deed) will be written against him. And whoever from them intends to do a good (deed), and if he does not do it, a good (deed) will be written for him, and if he does it, ten good deeds will be written for him’ He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, give me more!’ He said: ‘I have made for you that whoever from them does a bad deed, then seeks forgives for it, I will forgive him’ He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, give me more!’ He said: ‘I have made for them tawbah (repentance) or (the Imām said) He said: ‘I have expanded for them tawbah (repentance) until the sould reaches this (I.e. throat) He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, this is enough for me’

 

2. 

 From Abī Baṣīr from Abī `Abd Allāh (عليه السلام) said: “Verily, the mu’min (believer) intends to do a good (deed), but he does not act by it, then a good (deed) will be written for him. And if he acts upon it, ten good (deeds) will be written for him. If a mu’min intends to do a bad (deed) and act upon it, but if he does not act upon it, there will be nothing written against him”

Quote

 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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6 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Is there a hadith or link to this? 

Sister, I can only tell you what I know but unfortunately, I do  not have the reference you ask for.

You should consult with a hadith expert.

6 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

 As far as I know men psychologically tend to have these thoughts, so its not so easy to control them. 

You are right.

Submitting to God is not easy.

But that does not quite remove something from being a sin.

6 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

 Your intention and action are what matters

.And why wouldn't evil thoughts which you are encouraging and enjoying matter?

They should and they do.

And this was always so.

It is nothing specific to Islam.

I think Jesus also said something to that effect - if you are enjoying looking at sexually desirable stuff, pluck out your eyes. (Mathew 5:29 )

Anyway, for your hadith reference, as I said, do  please consult with a hadith expert. 

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20 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

This is a big serious claim. It needs to supported by strong narration. You have any supportive narrations with acceptable isnad? 

Here are two narrations that reject the above notion: 

1. 

From Ibn Bukayr from Abī `Abd Allāh or Abī Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: Verily Ādam (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Lord, you have made shayṭān have mastery over me, and he (shayṭān) flows in my bloodstream, so make something for me’ So He said: ‘O Ādam, I will make for you that whoever intends from your progeny a bad (deed), he will not have anything written against him, and If does the act, a bad (deed) will be written against him. And whoever from them intends to do a good (deed), and if he does not do it, a good (deed) will be written for him, and if he does it, ten good deeds will be written for him’ He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, give me more!’ He said: ‘I have made for you that whoever from them does a bad deed, then seeks forgives for it, I will forgive him’ He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, give me more!’ He said: ‘I have made for them tawbah (repentance) or (the Imām said) He said: ‘I have expanded for them tawbah (repentance) until the sould reaches this (I.e. throat) He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, this is enough for me’

 

2. 

 From Abī Baṣīr from Abī `Abd Allāh (عليه السلام) said: “Verily, the mu’min (believer) intends to do a good (deed), but he does not act by it, then a good (deed) will be written for him. And if he acts upon it, ten good (deeds) will be written for him. If a mu’min intends to do a bad (deed) and act upon it, but if he does not act upon it, there will be nothing written against him”

 

Brother, I stand by what I said. 

I suggest that you should consult with a senior Shia scholar as to the veracity of my assertion.

My personal view is that even if a hadith is absolutely true, it could also have a context and a literal reading could be very misleading.  

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9 minutes ago, baqar said:

Brother, I stand by what I said. 

I suggest that you should consult with a senior Shia scholar as to the veracity of my assertion.

My personal view is that even if a hadith is absolutely true, it could also have a context and a literal reading could be very misleading.  

In other words, what you're saying is that, even in the face two strong narrations, you choose to stick to your own opinion, which clearly goes against the narrations, and instead of presenting a reason to support your opinion, you evade the question. 

I suggest you contact a senior scholar, and if they share your opinion, ask them to show you why they do. Subsequently, bring their supporting evidence to this forum and post it here. 

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40 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

In other words, what you're saying is that, even in the face two strong narrations, you choose to stick to your own opinion, which clearly goes against the narrations, and instead of presenting a reason to support your opinion, you evade the question. 

It is not my opinion, brother.

It has been the opinion of Islamic scholarship for ever and for ever and for ever.

If you wish to interpret those hadiths the way you have done, you are welcome to do so.

I have no objections.

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

1. 

From Ibn Bukayr from Abī `Abd Allāh or Abī Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: Verily Ādam (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Lord, you have made shayṭān have mastery over me, and he (shayṭān) flows in my bloodstream, so make something for me’ So He said: ‘O Ādam, I will make for you that whoever intends from your progeny a bad (deed), he will not have anything written against him, and If does the act, a bad (deed) will be written against him. And whoever from them intends to do a good (deed), and if he does not do it, a good (deed) will be written for him, and if he does it, ten good deeds will be written for him’ He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, give me more!’ He said: ‘I have made for you that whoever from them does a bad deed, then seeks forgives for it, I will forgive him’ He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, give me more!’ He said: ‘I have made for them tawbah (repentance) or (the Imām said) He said: ‘I have expanded for them tawbah (repentance) until the sould reaches this (I.e. throat) He (Ādam) said: ‘O Lord, this is enough for me’

2. 

 From Abī Baṣīr from Abī `Abd Allāh (عليه السلام) said: “Verily, the mu’min (believer) intends to do a good (deed), but he does not act by it, then a good (deed) will be written for him. And if he acts upon it, ten good (deeds) will be written for him. If a mu’min intends to do a bad (deed) and act upon it, but if he does not act upon it, there will be nothing written against him”

 

The hadiths you have quoted have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I was referring to the continued derivation of pleasure from sensual thought.

The hadiths are talking about an intention to do something that would be a sin if carried out.

For example, if I have been hurt by someone and I wish to kill him, that is an intention that I could carry out.

What I have described above is totally different.  

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@SoRoUsH

 

Quote

This is a legal ruling - I.e. there is no sin or punishment, but ethically, even thinking about fornication/adultery is harmful and corrupting.

محمد بن يعقوب ، عن عليّ بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن أبي العبّاس الكوفي جميعا ، عن عمرو بن عثمان ، عن عبدالله بن سنان ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : اجتمع الحواريون إلى عيسى (عليه السلام) فقالوا له: يا معلم الخير أرشدنا، فقال لهم: إن موسى كليم الله (عليه السلام) أمركم أن لا تحلفوا بالله تبارك وتعالى كاذبين وأنا آمركم أن لا تحلفوا بالله كاذبين ولا صادقين، قالوا: يا روح الله زدنا، فقال: إن موسى نبي الله (عليه السلام) أمركم أن لا تزنوا وأنا آمركم أن لا تحدثوا أنفسكم بالزنا فضلا عن أن تزنوا، فإن من حدث نفسه بالزنا كان كمن أوقد في بيت مزوق فأفسد التزاويق الدخان وإن لم يحترق البيت

Jesus said, "Moses, the Prophet of Allah, commanded you to not fornicate, whereas I command you to not have thoughts of fornication in your mind, in addition to not fornicating. For one who has thoughts of fornication in his mind is like on who kindles a fire in a decorated house. The smoke ruins the decorations, even if the house does not burn."

 

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@AmirioTheMuzzyBoth you and @baqar mentioned very explicitly that "it's a sin." (Check your posts.) Clearly, as you must have noticed by now, based on brother Qa'im's post, it's not a sin. Claiming something is a sin, when it's not is a serious issue. 

Neither you nor @baqarhave presented any textual evidence to show that it's a sin. It's not. Is it morally corrupting and harmful? Yes. But it's not a sin. There's a big difference there. 

1 hour ago, baqar said:

The hadiths you have quoted have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I was referring to the continued derivation of pleasure from sensual thought.

If you have any textual evidence (ie. Narrations) to support your opinion, please present them. Otherwise, you should be very careful attributing sinfulness to something that is not. 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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4 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

evidence to show that it's a sin

Quote

Sayyid Khamenei:

If these thoughts lead to excitement and sin, they are not permissible.

Ayt. Wahid Khorasani:

Thoughts that produce sexual excitement are not permissible.

Ayt. Makarem:

If they don't lead to sin, they are not haram, but certainly have bad effects on one's soul.

http://hadana.ir/فکر-گناه-چه-حکمی-دارد/

Quote

Sayyid Sistani:

It is not prohibited if it does not lead to a forbidden act. (FM, p. 431)

It appears that for some of our maraji, such as Khamenei & Khorasani, it is not only ethical, but also legislative. Whereas for other maraji, such as  Makarem Shirazi & Sistani, it is only an ethical issue.

Notice the stipulation though: If it does not lead to a forbidden act.

This condition seems essentially impossible to satisfy. 

Wasalam

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6 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

It appears that for some of our maraji

There's a clear difference of opinion there, as you can see. Meaning, there isn't a clear textual evidence, narrations, to settle the matter. 

Plus, you should ask Khamenei and Khorasani, what does "not permissible" mean. Does it mean it's haram? Does it mean it's sinful? I strongly doubt it, but you can check.

Again, so far, we have no narrations from our Imams (عليه السلام) to settle the matter. We have clear narrations, however, that show thoughts and intentions aren't sinful, only actions could be. 

So, considering the clear narrations from our Imams (عليه السلام), the safest route is to listen to our Imams (عليه السلام), and do not place sinfulness where there's none. 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

There's a clear difference of opinion there, as you can see. Meaning, there isn't a clear textual evidence, narrations, to settle the matter. 

It's not that big of a difference... it's sexual excitement itself being haram VS sexual excitement that leads to haram being haram. Also,*

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Plus, you should ask Khamenei and Khorasani, what does "not permissible" mean. Does it mean it's haram? Does it mean it's sinful? I strongly doubt it, but you can check.

When reading fatawa, "not permissible" = haram

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Again, so far, we have no narrations from our Imams (عليه السلام) to settle the matter. We have clear narrations, however, that show thoughts and intentions aren't sinful, only actions could be. 

This is true to an extent, but there is likely a distinguishment made between thoughts in passing and indulgence in thoughts. [though source/citation is needed here]

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

So, considering the clear narrations from our Imams (عليه السلام), the safest route is to listen to our Imams (عليه السلام), and do not place sinfulness where there's none. 

Again, it is basically sinful. For practical purposes, it seems fine to call fantasizing 'sinful' when the only distinction being made is 'it in itself being haram' versus 'it being haram if it leads to haram' (practically-speaking, it will almost always lead to haram). Though I agree with you that we can't say for sure wether this particular immorality (fantasizing) is punishable or not by God.

*Also, you can't simply find clear narrations or lack thereof and leave it at that. A fiqhi ruling is more useful for our practicing of the deen.

......
Allahu A'lam
Wasalam

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9 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Sayyid Sistani:

It is not prohibited if it does not lead to a forbidden act. (FM, p. 431)

 

9 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Sayyid Khamenei:

If these thoughts lead to excitement and sin, they are not permissible.

As far as I understand these two statement say the same thing; If you feel the urge to commit any kind of sin it is only haram if you follow the urge. So don't. Allah is the most merciful, the most forgiving.

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16 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

If you feel the urge to commit any kind of sin it is only haram if you follow the urge.

Very true.

But me, baqar, SoRoUsH were debating something else entirely. We are discussing 'fantasizing' as indulging in sexual thoughts, not the 'feeling an urge but not following it'. Edit: I.e. voluntarily engaging oneself with certain (sexual) thoughts in order to derive sexual pleasure.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

baqar, SoRoUsH were debating something else entirely. We are discussing 'fantasizing' as indulging in sexual thoughts, not the 'feeling an urge but not following it'.

But isn't that kind of the same thing? fantasizing about doing sinful acts is just playing with fire. The fantasizing most often lead to the urge which may or may not lead to the act. So at some point you have to decide when to stop on this slippery slope. And the further you go, the harder it is.

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37 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

But isn't that kind of the same thing? fantasizing about doing sinful acts is just playing with fire. The fantasizing most often lead to the urge which may or may not lead to the act. So at some point you have to decide when to stop on this slippery slope. And the further you go, the harder it is.

I agree, though something that involuntarily pops into the mind which you then reject (you don't go further with it) is not blameworthy. At best you can say you need to find a way to improve yourself so those thoughts lessen and are rejected easier.

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1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

there is likely a distinguishment made between thoughts in passing and indulgence in thoughts. [though source/citation is needed here]

Yes. A source is definitely needed. And before accepting something to be a sin, we ought to be certain. Because, generally, what's not specifically pointed out to be Haram is Halal. So, it's important to not make an unjustified leap, based on our own opinions or inclinations. 

1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

it is basically sinful

No. It's not. And I don't know why you're insistent. The definition of Bid'ah is making what's halal Haram, and what's Haram halal. 

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