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Mohammad313Ali

Circumcision Is Evil

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3 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

You know an intellectual sound and academic response would have been highly appreciated, but a loser like you is unable to entertain thoughts and ideas. You hit the nail on the head by describing yourself to be fanatic in expression. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decrease your likes on this beautiful forum.

I am not here to stroke your intellectual and academic ego. I'm not here for your pleasure or you're entertainment or appreciation. 

Answer the question. Why do you seek appeasement and capitulation from the opposition?

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10 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

1. Humans are born with a perfect design so isn’t this a contradiction

Offhand, whatever idea you have of "perfect" then why do some of us have prayer marks?

Then there is the ageing process . . . "slow wasteage" . . . and if "perfect" then why wudu?

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7 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

You adopt the talking points of Christopher Hitchens. He is your Sheikh . This way you defending him. 

Posing a question similar to what Hitchens had raised on this forum isn't me defending him, it is similar to those when questioned by atheists in the time of Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) went to their blessed Imam and asked the same exact questions that the atheists had raised, not because they believe those claims, but because they lacked the proficiency and knowledge in answering those questions. I came here in hopes of having the brothers/sisters here answer my inquiry with a respectable manner free of any use of condescending terminologies or accusations.

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16 minutes ago, A_A said:

Ah, here we go again. Another self-appointed judge on the behalf of God. I truly wonder how arrogant a "religious" man can become to carelessly label other Muslims as Kuffar. Your remarks are tasteless and have no basis nor logic to them. If you have an argument to make, make it with the backing of the Qur'an otherwise anything else you write is merely speculation. 

Lol sure. You accused me of Vice Regency of God on Earth. This title doesnt belong to me. Never made this claim. Your imposing your Prejudice you have twords Muslims on me. 

Christopher Hitchens is the biggest KAFERrr.

I do not need to be logical and rational this is not my job, do not need to teach you you are not fit to be my student. 

If you read this thread.  I have place every reason points. But you and your friends support the opposition like they are enlightened and they have something to teach us. Never. And I never call musilms KUFARrr. 

 

 

Edited by azizaliallah

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3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Offhand, whatever idea you have of "perfect" then why do some of us have prayer marks?

Then there is the ageing process . . . "slow wasteage" . . . and if "perfect" then why wudu?

You guys seem to miss the point that I am here seeking my questions to be answered and not vice versa, anything I say I will not dogmatically defend it is all speculation.

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14 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

You adopt the talking points of Christopher Hitchens. 

l checked to be sure, but Hitchens was described by The Guardian (2010) as a "hard drinking polemicist and atheist."

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5 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

You guys seem to miss the point that I am here seeking my questions to be answered and not vice versa, anything I say I will not dogmatically defend it is all speculation.

Try Ayats 2:142-144 -changing the direction of the Qibla. So isn't hadith based Khitan a supplement?

Now, l read and in the Wiki source says the Nabi -(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s. was born circumcised according to some hadith.

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42 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

It's not sarcasm this is practical advice. If he follow advice, he will be helped.

You could have just written 'No porn' but instead you wrote it in the maddest way. Nothing else you wrote was practical advice.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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23 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Posing a question similar to what Hitchens had raised on this forum isn't me defending him, it is similar to those when questioned by atheists in the time of Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) went to their blessed Imam and asked the same exact questions that the atheists had raised, not because they believe those claims, but because they lacked the proficiency and knowledge in answering those questions. I came here in hopes of having the brothers/sisters here answer my inquiry with a respectable manner free of any use of condescending terminologies or accusations.

I'm not abusing you, I am not a school teacher and you're not my pupil. 

I'm not threatening you with a big ruler.

For asking the wrong questions don't be silly.

Who call circumcision, genital mutilation. This is condescending. 

Christopher Hitchens and his team call circumcision genital mutilation. 

This tells me you have adopted their terminology which is condescending. 

You are not an atheist asking your Imam questions. 

Don't play that car, don't play games.

I read your questions and I seen the video, you are pushing an agenda. 

You have become an agent of the opposition and you don't know. 

Now you trying to play the victim.

I noticed a lot of times this happen alot on the Shia forum  but I held my tongue.

Because he received resistance from me I'm the bad guy. 

You need bad guys like me. 

 

3plfae.jpg

Edited by azizaliallah

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18 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

But you and your friends support the opposition like they are enlightened and they have something to teach us.

Nobody here is arguing against circumcision, aside from OP. We are just trying to come to the truth by bringing about discussion.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Nobody here is arguing against circumcision, aside from OP. We are just trying to come to the truth by bringing about discussion.

For the love of God I am not arguing against it I am just asking if someone can give a better answer then me or the rabbi :cry:

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I don't see how male circumcision is called genital mutilation. 

If I am correct, to be able to do Hajj correctly one has to be circumcised. 

It's only genital mutilation when circumcision is done on females, which doesn't exist in Shia Islam. And it's done in several different degrees, one which is allowed in Shia Islam and in the western world but isn't considered genital mutilation. If I remember correctly. 

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1 hour ago, AkhiraisReal said:

I don't see how male circumcision is called genital mutilation. 

If I am correct, to be able to do Hajj correctly one has to be circumcised. 

It's only genital mutilation when circumcision is done on females, which doesn't exist in Shia Islam. And it's done in several different degrees, one which is allowed in Shia Islam and in the western world but isn't considered genital mutilation. If I remember correctly. 

What's wrong with Female circumcision. 

Nothing wrong with it. don’t call it, female genital mutilation. This is an insult to millions of musilms and non-Muslim. 

They think circumcision is evil. They probably tell you that Hajj is evil too.

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21 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

What's wrong with Female circumcision. 

Nothing wrong with it. don’t call it, female genital mutilation. This is an insult to millions of musilms and non-Muslim. 

They think circumcision is evil. They probably tell you that Hajj is evil too.

What type of circumcision are you talking about? I am talking about the one where they remove some part of the female genital which not only reduces her pleasure but also puts her in risk. Its condemned in all western worlds and Shias don't do it. That is pure evil and has nothing to do with Islam. 

It's practiced in many Sunni countries especially African ones, where the rates can be 90%+ of the females. 

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3 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

For the love of God I am not arguing against it I am just asking if someone can give a better answer then me or the rabbi :cry:

Apologies, but you named the thread "Circumcision Is Evil'

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46 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

What's wrong with Female circumcision. 

Nothing wrong with it. don’t call it, female genital mutilation. This is an insult to millions of musilms and non-Muslim. 

They think circumcision is evil. They probably tell you that Hajj is evil too.

Quote

In any case, there is enough room to argue that there may not be a legislative istihbab on the topic of female circumcision. As I mentioned earlier to @Qa'im, it is arguable that it is a recommendation of a non-legislative type and completely dependant upon customary practices linked to a very clear purpose. You can see this discussion happening even in the words of past jurists, especially when discussing the narrations that say it is not from the sunnah (I.e. what does this mean). The confusion was apparent, that is why some later jurists began mentioning the term shar'an after mentioning the ruling of istihbab for female circumcision.

For example, Sayyid Ali Ha'iri in his Riyadh al-Masa'il (vol. 12, pg. 136) brings different reasons to say why this is istihbab shar'an (a legislative type), but also makes a remark saying some of the narrations apparently imply that it is not mustahabb in the technical sense (I.e. legislative sense) - even though he disagrees with that interpretation:

و هو و إن احتمل نفي الوجوب، إلّا أنّ بعضها ظاهر في نفي السنّة بالمعنى المصطلح

In any case, there was a difference of opinion on whether this is a legislative practice or not amongst past scholars. Majlisi - the father - explains his opinion in his commentary on al-Faqih of Shaykh Saduq (vol. 8, pg. 616), what it means for female circumcision to be a makrumah:

 و مكرمة في النساء أي حسنة مستحبة قبل البلوغ و بعده، و ليس بواجب، و ليس استحبابه أيضا كاستحباب ختان الصبي فيما كان مستحبا

It is noble deed for women - meaning: Is it a good desirable practice before bulugh and after it, and it is not obligatory. Furthermore, its istihbab (desirability) is also not like the recommendation of circumcision in a boy which is mustahabb (I.e. of a legislative type).

Mirza Qumi enters into a long and interesting discussion on this topic in his جامع الشتات, volume 4, pg. 614. Even though he agrees that it has istihbab (shar'an) - you will have to read his full argument to see how he concludes that, but even he admits that some of the reports are explicit in implying it does not have any istihbab:

و امّا السؤال عن خفض الجوارى فلا خلاف فى استحبابه، و عدم ظهور الخلاف يكفى للمسامحة فى السنن. و ان كان الاخبار ليست بصريحة فى الاستحباب، بل فى بعضها نفى كونه من السنة

  Quote

Who is the muhaqiq of al-Kafi?

Ali Akbar Ghaffari, but he was actually quoting the words of 'Allamah Majlisi from his Mirat al-'Uqul:

قوله عليه السلام:" و ليس على النساء" أي لا يجب عليهن، و ليس سنة مؤكدة فيهن، فلا ينافي استحبابه كما ذكره الأصحاب

'Allamah Majlisi also says in his commentary on Tahdhib al-Ahkam of Sh. Tusi (vol. 12, pg. 428):

قوله عليه السلام: مكرمة أي: موجب لكرامتها و محبوبيتها عند زوجها، و هذا أمر مرغوب، و لعل المعنى أنها ليست من السنن بل من التطوعات. و يحتمل أن تكون من الآداب و الأوامر الإرشادية للمصالح الدنيوية، و الأول أظهر

His usage of the phrase أظهر is crucial, because it shows that both these meanings are apparent for him (the second one being that this was just hukm irshadi, and not a legislative recommendation), but he believes that the first prima-facie is more apparent than the other.

Yusuf al-Bahrani, one of the last major Akhbari scholars, writes:

قال بعض مشايخنا: مكرمة أي موجبة لحسنها و كرامتها عند زوجها، و المعنى ليست من السنن بل من التطوعات. أقول: و يؤيده ما يأتي إن شاء الله تعالى في حديث أم حبيب

Even more interesting is this discussion by Shahid Sayyid Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr in his Ma Wara' al-Fiqh, volume 6, pg. 222 onwards. It has a lot of technical terminology and I don't know how much the brothers and sisters who even know Arabic will understand, but maybe give it a shot:

 

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4 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

For the love of God I am not arguing against it I am just asking if someone can give a better answer then me or the rabbi :cry:

This is not an explanation, but:

Quote

It is Mustahabb for the parents of a boy, or guardians in general, to get him circumcised. It is not Wajib on them. However, circumcision is a necessary condition for the validity of Tawaf (whether Umrah or Hajj) - can't think of any other place where something else is dependent on it.

 

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28 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

This is not an explanation, but:

 

Don't go around telling Muslims that something is Mustahabb, they'll abandon it right away. Lol

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3 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

What's wrong with Female circumcision. 

lt is mutilation.

Several years ago, l saw this program but l forget in which country. What l do remember is that the girls called the woman who did this -for a fee of course- "the Alligator" . . . and the father who after a few years was still blaming himself because he took his two daughters to have it done and the youngest at age 5 died from contracting gangrene.

ln the hadith l read yesterday, it existed in the Time of lgnorance but hadith only deals with circumcision. l do not know of any FGM related hadith other than in my read, and that it has existed for a long time.

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11 hours ago, A_A said:

Ah, here we go again. Another self-appointed judge on the behalf of God. I truly wonder how arrogant a "religious" man can become to carelessly label other Muslims as Kuffar. Your remarks are tasteless and have no basis nor logic to them. If you have an argument to make, make it with the backing of the Qur'an otherwise anything else you write is merely speculation. 

Lol if only you see how easily nowadays a Shi'a can label other Shia as kafir (or even kill) based on merely politics :grin:

Edited by Abu Nur

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On 2/17/2020 at 10:44 PM, Mohammad313Ali said:

I have two questions which myself and many others have toiled with in regards to circumcision, the first based on Surah 95:4 Indeed we have created mankind in the best design.

The second about the morality of circumcising a child.

1. Circumcision is a once in a lifetime occurrence wherein a certain area of genitalia from the male is cut off, based on the verse I mentioned if we were created in the best design why then do we need to take off a portion of our complete design. Certainly it can't be similar to cutting ones hair and fingernails as these are reoccurrences. 

2. When described outside a religious sense the idea of cutting a young child's genitalia can seem to be abhorrent and evil. I will share a video that relays Christopher Hitchens and his objections that occupy this question, and what would be the Islamic response to such an objection.

 

  @Qa'im @baqar @funklebits @eThErEaL @Sirius_Bright @Hameedeh @hasanhh @Moalfas@Ashvazdanghe @Ibn Al-Ja'abi @Ibn Al-Shahid @realizm @Mahdavist

Salam,

The real question that needs to be asked is where does our morality come from?  What does it even mean to say something like "our morality"?

You mentioned:  "When described outside a religious sense X can seem to be abhorrent and evil"

What does "outside a religious sense" mean?  Is there an "outside" of religion?  Yes, we typically refer to this as "secular".  But is "secularism" a real and independent frame of reference?

Where do our moral standards of what is right vs what is wrong come from?  What are its underlying implications or underlying assumptions (if any)?

  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 2/18/2020 at 11:47 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I read the decision of the Sistani, don’t blame him, I accept.

There is a campaign against female circumcision, In the hundreds of millions and its sole purpose is to eradicate this tradition, calling it backwards and born of ignorance and a prejudice against female sexuality. 

And I don't dispute anybody who says this is wrong based on these facts, but the question is "are these facts actually Factual"?

I say no.

If people are introduced to the right sources they will come to my conclusion ,that there is nothing wrong with female circumcision. 

 

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On 2/19/2020 at 3:47 PM, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

The real question that needs to be asked is where does our morality come from?  What does it even mean to say something like "our morality"?

You mentioned:  "When described outside a religious sense X can seem to be abhorrent and evil"

What does "outside a religious sense" mean?  Is there an "outside" of religion?  Yes, we typically refer to this as "secular".  But is "secularism" a real and independent frame of reference?

Where do our moral standards of what is right vs what is wrong come from?  What are its underlying implications or underlying assumptions (if any)?

  

 

Secularism is a religion without a God,

So the attributes of God are delegated to ideals, institutions, Ministries, and People.

It's an invisible Shirk system.

Secularists like to tell people to keep their God in a small Corner in their house.

I replied by telling them keep your secularism in a small Corner in your house.

Edited by azizaliallah
Missing words

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On 2/23/2020 at 6:17 AM, azizaliallah said:

I read the decision of the Sistani, don’t blame him, I accept.

There is a campaign against female circumcision, In the hundreds of millions and its sole purpose is to eradicate this tradition, calling it backwards and born of ignorance and a prejudice against female sexuality. 

And I don't dispute anybody who says this is wrong based on these facts, but the question is "are these facts actually Factual"?

I say no.

If people are introduced to the right sources they will come to my conclusion ,that there is nothing wrong with female circumcision. 

 

Ayatollah Sistani did not beat around the bush when it comes to this topic and directly discussed the issues which cause such a practice to be impermissible, why are you creating your own conclusion which falls behind all that he stated? what right sources are you speaking of, you are creating a straw man.

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