Circumcision Is Evil?

[Zaydism]

I have two questions which myself and many others have toiled with in regards to circumcision, the first based on Surah 95:4 Indeed we have created mankind in the best design.

The second about the morality of circumcising a child.

1. Circumcision is a once in a lifetime occurrence wherein a certain area of genitalia from the male is cut off, based on the verse I mentioned if we were created in the best design why then do we need to take off a portion of our complete design. Certainly it can't be similar to cutting ones hair and fingernails as these are reoccurrences. 

2. When described outside a religious sense the idea of cutting a young child's genitalia can seem to be abhorrent and evil. I will share a video that relays Christopher Hitchens and his objections that occupy this question, and what would be the Islamic response to such an objection.

[Minute 4:20 and onwards

  @Qa'im @baqar @funklebits @eThErEaL @Sirius_Bright @ShiaChat Mod  @hasanhh @Moalfas@Ashvazdanghe @Ibn Al-Ja'abi @Ibn Al-Shahid @realizm @Mahdavist

Edited May 26, 2022 by Hameedeh
Change in title of this topic.

[azizaliallah]

Secular rebuttal. Keep your Silicone injections and tattoos and I will keep my circumcision.

Religious rebuttal. Circumcisions is a sign of the covenant we keep with Allah in submitting to his will.

That's it. don’t mention hygienic argument,  this is a people who use toilet paper and hand sanitizer. They don’t under stand personal hygiene. 

[al-Muttaqin]

I don't believe that God would make human design purposefully faulty and the idea of mutilating oneself is wholly satanic. Circumcision itself was a pagan tradition that the Jews borrowed.

[Zaydism]

8 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

tattoos

based on my limited knowledge tattoos are halal.

8 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

Circumcisions is a sign of the covenant

yes, the problem is such a covenant is considered evil and immoral due to reasons mentioned in the post and video.

8 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

They don’t under stand personal hygiene.

Brother I think when it comes to genital mutilation we've gone into a whole separate discussion, that is out of the ordinary washroom etiquettes.

[azizaliallah]

Muhammad 313 Ali.

The problem with you in regards to circumcision, is you listen to Kufar, like they teach you something. KUFAR can never teach a Muslim. TATTOOS are not haram, but that doesn't make them halal. I hate this mentally handicapped population we have to babysit.

Why are you calling it genital mutilation?why are you using their terminology. don’t attack your own tradition. Its not evil. What's evil is those old men who hate you, and want you to abandon your faith. I personally not invested in your salvation or damntion. I don't care. What I care about is the fact. 

Don't parents have sovereignty over their children, I say yes I will raise my children however I deem appropriate. But these people that you look up to, who teach you that your purification is called genital mutilation, don’t believe in the sovereignty of parents over there children. 

There's a biomedical technology company that's promising to be able to restructuring forseskins of circumcised men, I will be one of its first patients just so I can circumcised again. 

With no general or local anesthetic.

Inshallah.  The victimhood runs deep in the minds of these monkeys. 

[Zaydism]

7 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

I hate this mentally handicapped population we have to babysit.

Can you elaborate on this it’s missing lots of context and we don’t want any misunderstandings.

7 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

Why are you calling it genital mutilation?why are you using their terminology.

Because that’s what it is technically and I am sorry if you find it offensive.

7 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

don’t attack your own tradition. Its not evil.

Stop getting emotional and I am merely posing questions, because I haven’t reached a rational understanding towards it, if you don’t have anything of value to add to this post then I appreciate it if you can just not add whatever personal opinions you have pertaining to tattoos, certain terminologies, etc.

I don’t see why you’re so upset and emotional.

7 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

But these people that you look up to

This is pathetic.

7 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

There's a biomedical technology company that's promising to be able to restructuring forseskins of circumcised men, I will be one of its first patients just so I can circumcised again. 

That’s cool brother enjoy it. Love to be there and see you scream :P

Dogmatism is dangerous.

[Zaydism]

16 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

TATTOOS are not haram, but that doesn't make them halal.

 

[azizaliallah]

Tattoos are not an Islamic tradition and they never have been, they are the tradition of pirates, sailors, primitive tribes and criminals. That's it.

It is something our Islamic brothers have hated over the centuries and never practiced as a society. 

That doesn't make it haram, but for some Muslims everything needs to be haram, because if it's not explicitly haram our mentality handicapped population will Indulge to the point of excess. That's not my problem. That's not my problem musilms like to equate something that is not haram as halal.

7 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

 

[Zaydism]

6 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

if it's not explicitly haram our mentality handicapped population will Indulge to the point of excess.

I apologize on behalf of the mentally handicapped population for not being able to reach the esteemed levels of your piety and knowledge. It was a joke you need to learn to just chill out.

6 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

musilms like to equate something that is not haram as halal.

Because if something is not haram it is halal, maybe you’re referring to things that are makrooh, but what is makrooh is halal, I would highly appreciate it if we can stop talking about this obnoxious issue that you have about tattoos and your superiority towards “the mentally handicapped population”.

if you’re interested in boasting about your non-existent accolades towards the “mentally handicapped population”, feel free to create a thread of your own, because you’ve really plagued this one with your nonsense.

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

6 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

because you’ve really plagued this one with your nonsense

Correction, he has plagued all threads with his nonsense.

[azizaliallah]

But I'll tell you what is our tradition, there is no doubt that is our tradition and that is the tradition of circumcision, it predates the formation of the Muslim nations, and it is an ancient tradition of the abrahamic Heavenly religions.

The circumcision represents covenant with God. What is wrong with this. How could someone call this concept evil? 

Whoever calls this practice evil does not know what anything about science, does not know anything about spirituality, does not know anything about The Human Condition. 

[azizaliallah]

This is an open forum for free thought and discussion, I don't seek the debate anybody. It is not my business to change your mind. You cannot banish me, and you cannot claim that I am causing a plague. Some matters you do not need to be trained in knowledge and piety.

[Ashvazdanghe]

4 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

1. Circumcision is a once in a lifetime occurrence wherein a certain area of genitalia from the male is cut off, based on the verse I mentioned if we were created in the best design why then do we need to take off a portion of our complete design. Certainly it can't be similar to cutting ones hair and fingernails as these are reoccurrences. 

2. When described outside a religious sense the idea of cutting a young child's genitalia can seem to be abhorrent and evil. I will share a video that relays Christopher Hitchens and his objections that occupy this question, and what would be the Islamic response to such an objection.

Salam you founded your argument on wrong basis because Circumcision in Islam & Judaism are different from each other like difference of Kosher & Halal butchering even Shia & Sunni have different ideas about level of Circumcision .

[hasanhh]

Before l read the intervening comments, a couple of points.

Maimonides [ 1135-1205 CC ] is a product of the 12th Century. He wrote a book on aphrodesiacs and other keep-the-sex-up commentaries. Though a prominent physcian in his own time, medical knowledge back then was quite crude. So his knowledge about hormones and neurology interelationships would be non existent.

Edited February 18, 2020 by hasanhh
spelin'

[hasanhh]

4 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

That's it. don’t mention hygienic argument,  this is a people who use toilet paper and hand sanitizer. They don’t under stand personal hygiene. 

Nearly all cicumcisions in the West are done in the hospital. So Hitchens claim of "hundreds" of problems is blatently false.

[azizaliallah]

4 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

I don't believe that God would make human design purposefully faulty and the idea of mutilating oneself is wholly satanic. Circumcision itself was a pagan tradition that the Jews borrowed.

First of all nobody is denying that the foreskin has purpose that is biological.

Tattoos is not mutilating yourself? Injecting silicone in your forehead changing your iris colour is not mutilation ? what logic is this?

Circumcision was practiced by pagans, so was sodomizing youngs boys and child sacrifice to false gods. And the pagans haven't abandon their traditions. 

The difference when we circumcise ourselves, we do it as sign we are ready to submit to Allah. Tell me what problem do you have with me wanting to raise my male children in the path of Allah. don’t answer it, and your friends have no legitimate grounds to attack our tradition. 

OR do prefer to have my children pierce their lips with a bone, dye there hair green, Mutilate their genitalia for the sake of gender neutrality ,the biggest false God of the western times, and have them engage in casual Sodomy. All for the sake of free will? Look they have there deen we have our Deen.

Circumcision is bad, because I didn't consult an infant about it?  

Will the Children of the West consult their parents before they embark on a path of self-destruction? No.

I don’t need to consult you or a doctor or an atheist KUFArrrr or my infant child about circumcision.

May Allah hasten this biomedical company so I can get my foreskin biologically engineered onto my penis, so I can circumcise myself a second time, hamdullah.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by azizaliallah
Misspelled

[hasanhh]

3 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

Tattoos are not an Islamic tradition and they never have been, t

l do not know what Shi'a hadith there are, but Sahih aI-Bukhari, Book 34 #299 , forbids anything concerned with tattoos or tattooing.

[hasanhh]

5 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

First of all nobody is denying that the foreskin has purpose that is biological

l read on this for this thread.

"Debate" is the characterizing word used to describe the medical side of this discussion.

The "foreskin has nerves" is pointed out as if this was somehow a unique determining factor. However, the entire body has nerve endings, not just a piece of skin. There are nerves under it.

[Ashvazdanghe]

Benefit of Circumcision: To Cut or Not

Circumcision - Indications, Controversies, Complications & More | Dr.... Jennifer Singer - UCLA Urology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraKXVUyoLE

Circumcision | Nucleus Health

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7T9muqv7bY

https://www.al-Islam.org/philosophy-Islamic-laws-nasir-makarim-shirazi-jafar-subhani/question-25-circumcision

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ashvazdanghe

[azizaliallah]

10 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Benefit of Circumcision: To Cut or Not

Circumcision - Indications, Controversies, Complications & More | Dr.... Jennifer Singer - UCLA Urology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraKXVUyoLE

Circumcision | Nucleus Health

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7T9muqv7bY

Mashallah praise be to Muhammed and his family. (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  my Allah bless this child and his family. I handing out chocolates. Hamdullah.

[Zaydism]

@hasanhh brother could you enlighten me on the first question that I posed, us being a complete design and the necessity of altering that design. I read a Hadith which is very important to note. 

Imam Al-Sadiq was born Circumcised.

So why then did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with all his majesty and knowledge not create every male as such and if someone states it’s a covenant between man and God, I respectfully object and say that is nonsensical. How can a child who 9/10 times is not over the age of five when receiving such a procedure understand or conceptualize the idea of a covenant, the child did not make that decision the family did on his behalf (not saying I disagree I am not against this practice at all and will circumcise my sons if I am blessed with such progeny after marriage) I believe these are important inquiries that need a very direct answer which sufficient he meticulous objections and concerns raise.

1. Humans are born with a perfect design so isn’t this a contradiction

2. Imam Al-Sadiq was born as such so why not all males

3. It clearly isn’t a covenant since when are covenants established with infants/toddlers

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

8 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

This is an open forum for free thought and discussion, I don't seek the debate anybody. It is not my business to change your mind. You cannot banish me, and you cannot claim that I am causing a plague. Some matters you do not need to be trained in knowledge and piety.

I was referring to how you answer posts sarcastically, which is quite annoying:

 

[Zaydism]

11 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

I don't believe that God would make human design purposefully faulty and the idea of mutilating oneself is wholly satanic. Circumcision itself was a pagan tradition that the Jews borrowed.

brother could you furthermore elaborate 

[A_A]

I commend you for the good question. Considering it isn't mentioned in the Qur'an and people do it for the sake of hygiene, under the pretense of it being religiously mandated I will assume it's just a tradition. But perhaps a helpful tradition though not compulsory. 

"We have certainly created man in the best of stature" 95:4 ~ Qur'an

The question should be in the best of stature for what? Surely in terms of biology we are not the best, we are merely mortals that become feeble sick and die. Our hair grows, we cut it, our nails grow, we cut them too. We administer vaccines to our children to avoid sickness, we take medications and use handicaps if required. We perform surgeries to remove dangerous tissues we have been born with. In terms of life, trees live longer than us. So God created us in the best of stature for what and relative to what because we surely aren't biological gods.

"Indeed, I will make upon the Earth a successive authority." 2:30

That is our function. We are the custodians of this Earth and have been designed to be the custodians of this Earth. Of all life on this Earth it was man who was chosen to determine the fate of this world because that is what we were designed for. The world was put under our care. Do not be mistaken, we weren't created to be tested because we all know that Iblis rebelled after our creation. This is our function and this is why we were designed so. 

[Haji 2003]

On 12/14/2006 at 7:04 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Circumcision can cut the rate of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 50%, results from two African trials show.

The findings are so striking, the US National Institutes of Health decided it would be unethical to continue and stopped the trials early

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6176209.stm

[azizaliallah]

17 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

On 12/14/2006 at 12:04 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Circumcision can cut the rate of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 50%, results from two African trials show.

The findings are so striking, the US National Institutes of Health decided it would be unethical to continue and stopped the trials early

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6176209.stm

Circumcision is good for Zina. Mashallah.

[azizaliallah]

1 hour ago, A_A said:

 

Don't circumcise your kids, if you and other people on this forum feel so strongly against some thing monotheists have done for 5000 plus years.

[azizaliallah]

On 2/18/2020 at 8:50 AM, Mohammad313Ali said:

1. Humans are born with a perfect design so isn’t this a contradiction

2. Imam Al-Sadiq was born as such so why not all males

3. It clearly isn’t a covenant since when are covenants established with infants/toddlers

1. You think Muslims do circumcision because we think there's something wrong with foreskin?

2. Yes, because we all give birth to sons like Imam Jafar As-Sadiq.

3. YES BROTHER, Circumcision has nothing to do with Covenant. Mashallah. We stupid Muslim masses just like chopping off little penis skin from babies just like Sheikh Christopher Hitchens says our irrational religion causes us to maintain barbaric practices.

Death to Genital Mutilation.

[A_A]

20 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

Circumcision is good for Zina. Mashallah.

Trolling on a site like this, what a pious man you are. No one is going to fall for your nonsense "Keyboard warrior".

[Zaydism]

On 2/18/2020 at 3:35 PM, azizaliallah said:

1. You think Muslims do circumcision because we think there's something wrong with foreskin?

2. Yes, because we all give birth to sons like Imam Jafar As-Sadiq.

3. YES BROTHER, Circumcision has nothing to do with Covenant. Mashallah. We stupid Muslim masses just like chopping off little penis skin from babies just like Sheikh Christopher Hitchens says our irrational religion causes us to maintain barbaric practices.

Death to Genital Mutilation.

Stupid Muslim masses? Sheikh Hitchens?

You are incompetent and missed the point of question two.

[azizaliallah]

6 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I was referring to how you answer posts sarcastically, which is quite annoying:

 

It's not sarcasm this is practical advice. If he follow advice, he will be helped.

[azizaliallah]

6 minutes ago, A_A said:

Trolling on a site like this, what a pious man you are. No one is going to fall for your nonsense "Keyboard warrior".

 I'm exposing the stupidity of this argument. Some Muslims love adopting the talking points of those who hate us. The champions of this anti-circumcision movement are kufar. 

[Zaydism]

3 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

I'm exposing the stupidity of this argument.

You know an intellectual sound and academic response would have been highly appreciated, but a loser like you is unable to entertain thoughts and ideas. You hit the nail on the head by describing yourself to be fanatic in expression. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decrease your likes on this beautiful forum.

[A_A]

Ah, here we go again. Another self-appointed judge on the behalf of God. I truly wonder how arrogant a "religious" man can become to carelessly label other Muslims as Kuffar. Your remarks are tasteless and have no basis nor logic to them. If you have an argument to make, make it with the backing of the Qur'an otherwise anything else you write is merely speculation. 

[azizaliallah]

8 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Stupid Muslim masses? Sheikh Hitchens?

You are incompetent and missed the point of question two.

You adopt the talking points of Christopher Hitchens. He is your Sheikh . This way you defending him. 

Do you not understand the anti-Islamic talking points in your questions. 

I expect this from non-Muslims ,why would you adopt their talking points? I want to ask you a simple question? Why do you seek capitulation and appeasement from the opposition?

They will not celebrate you, they will use you and parade you as an enlightened idiot.