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In the Name of God بسم الله
Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Double standards of Shias with azaan/iqamah and Namaz

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Just now, Flying_Eagle said:

Yeah best deed is from Allah and are not Ahlebait from Allah? And aren't they best?

The best deed here refers to the Salah you are about to pray.

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Just now, Flying_Eagle said:

One of Imam said this, it's not my quote brother.

Wouldn't that logic also apply to 'hasten to salvation' (haya ala falah)

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3 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Wouldn't that logic also apply to 'hasten to salvation' (haya ala falah)

Salah without accepting Ahlebait is devoid of its essence, your salah lacks spirit if you do not know what falah is. Falah is sticking to Prophet and Ahlebait.

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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23 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

One of Imam said this, it's not my quote brother.

Exactly brother.

I am surprised to see, the logic people made here is based on assumptions:

The answer given to me was:

1. If mujtahid allows its ok if he doesn't then you shouldn't.

How this serves as an evidence?

Mujtahid cannot allow anything by his opinion else his fatwa would be batil and he would become one of innovators. Since in hadith of taqleed, one quality of faqih of whom we should do taqleed is muti anli amr e mola

Please show  amr of Mola (عليه السلام) allowing sahahadat e salisa as optional , mustahab , with intention of non-juzz in azaan/iqamah on which fatwa of your favorite mujtahid is based

Else its batil and mujtahid is an innovator

Jazak'Allah

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23 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Exactly brother.

I am surprised to see, the logic people made here is based on assumptions:

The answer given to me was:

1. If mujtahid allows its ok if he doesn't then you shouldn't.

How this serves as an evidence?

Mujtahid cannot allow anything by his opinion else his fatwa would be batil and he would become one of innovators. Since in hadith of taqleed, one quality of faqih of whom we should do taqleed is muti anli amr e mola

Please show  amr of Mola (عليه السلام) allowing sahahadat e salisa as optional , mustahab , with intention of non-juzz in azaan/iqamah on which fatwa of your favorite mujtahid is based

Else its batil and mujtahid is an innovator

Jazak'Allah

Mujtahids don't say anything from themselves. It's TRUE that in Azan Aliyun waliullah is not a literary juzz because its covered in Haya ala khairul amal. But since Ahlebait (عليه السلام) did not consider it unlawful to Pronounce Aliyun waliullah so that people may understand haya ala khairul amal. Therefore, it become like you are allowed to pronounce Subhan-Allah rabiul azeem wa bi Hamidhi three times or one times in Ruku. Likewise, if you say Aliyunwaliullah its barakah, if you do not say but say haya ala khairul amal, its covered in it like if you say subhan rabiul azeem wa bihamdhi.

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On 2/20/2020 at 2:33 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

How this serves as an evidence?

Their rulings comes based on Qur'an and hadith. Jurist are the learned scholars not an ordinary person like me . Since yourself seems unable to grasp the reality and you intend to keep moving in circles of own conjectures to build a hypothetical / false permission for third testimony in salah during tahsud but still no progress or any helpful comments you have got. Is not so?

wasaalm

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2 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Mujtahids don't say anything from themselves. It's TRUE that in Azan Aliyun waliullah is not a literary juzz because its covered in Haya ala khairul amal. But since Ahlebait (عليه السلام) did not consider it unlawful to Pronounce Aliyun waliullah so that people may understand haya ala khairul amal. Therefore, it become like you are allowed to pronounce Subhan-Allah rabiul azeem wa bi Hamidhi three times or one times in Ruku. Likewise, if you say Aliyunwaliullah its barakah, if you do not say but say haya ala khairul amal, its covered in it like if you say subhan rabiul azeem wa bihamdhi.

point to be noted:

1. Ahlebait (عليه السلام) also never considered it un lawful to pronounce Ali un wali ullah in Tashahud of Namaz.
2. Darood was recited by Ahle-Sunnah as well so third testimony is needed to expalin it there as well.
3. If azaan is correct with that logic, how is namaz batil?
these are double standards!

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Their rulings comes based on Qur'an and hadith. Jurist are the learned scholars not an ordinary person like me . Since yourself seems unable to grasp the reality and you intend to keep moving in circles of own conjectures to build a hypothetical / false permission for third testimony in salah during tahsud but still no progress or any helpful comments you have got. Is not so?

wasaalm

lol but no hadith says salah is batil with third testimony.
also tashahud isn't fixed and has testimonies of jannah, jahanum etc as well

And also Tashahud of Imam e Sadiq in Fiqh e kamil and Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) in Fiqh-e-Raza is there so don’t call it a false permission.
And hadith of Ehtejaj e Tabrisi where Imam said say Ali un wali ullah whenever you say la ilaha illalah Muhammad ur Rasool ullah is there

now try to defend that your mujtahids used hadiths to give fatwa that namaz is batil with third testimony.
else at least accept they use Qias!

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48 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

point to be noted:

1. Ahlebait (عليه السلام) also never considered it un lawful to pronounce Ali un wali ullah in Tashahud of Namaz.
2. Darood was recited by Ahle-Sunnah as well so third testimony is needed to expalin it there as well.
3. If azaan is correct with that logic, how is namaz batil?
these are double standards!

1. Are you a mujtahid? If you are a mujtahid and base your opinion after exhausting various channels of knowledge then perhaps I may agree that you need not be a Muqalid. But if you are not then I would suggest you not to consider Mujtahids as lower in knowledge than yours because you and I both know it's not truth.

2. Ahlesunnah read it but I have concern whether they honor it or not, because I see that many of them considered taking away of Fadak from Hazrat Zahea (عليه السلام) by first caliph to be ok. So, do they really honor this salwat? 

3. There is consensus among various Mujtahids that there are various hadith confirming that our Imams read Tashud as is read by majority of them right now. 

4. If for example: - you think that those hadith are wrong and what you say are true. Even then you are not an Imam. For these close unclear differences Qur'an says: "Do not cause mischief because of differences rather wait for our intermediation". Do not be in hurry brother, let Imam-e-Zamana come and we will know it until then refer to knowledgeable people.

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

lol but no hadith says salah is batil with third testimony.
also tashahud isn't fixed and has testimonies of jannah, jahanum etc as well

And also Tashahud of Imam e Sadiq in Fiqh e kamil and Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) in Fiqh-e-Raza is there so don’t call it a false permission.
And hadith of Ehtejaj e Tabrisi where Imam said say Ali un wali ullah whenever you say la ilaha illalah Muhammad ur Rasool ullah is there

now try to defend that your mujtahids used hadiths to give fatwa that namaz is batil with third testimony.
else at least accept they use Qias!

I doubt that you have met the Mujtahids that tell that there are books where Tashud is until Muhammadur Rasol-Allah. The reason of this is that you just quote your opinion and don't post answers of Mujtahids that have different opinion than yours. You would have been absolutely truthful if you have shown that other Mujtahids have quoted false statements without any proof like we debate about Ahlebait and compare with books of our opposite party to their satisfaction.

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On 2/20/2020 at 6:03 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Please show  amr of Mola (عليه السلام) allowing sahahadat e salisa as optional , mustahab , with intention of non-juzz in azaan/iqamah on which fatwa of your favorite mujtahid is based

Else its batil and mujtahid is an innovator

Salam reciting Shia Azaan/Iqamah was not common even after major occultation of Imam Mahdi (aj) until establishing Shia governments like Safavids but as in every era at least one Mujtahid & Marja could visit Imam Mahdi (aj) which Imam Mahdi (aj) not ordered them to stop saying Shahadat Salisa in Azan & Iqama but all Maraji as deputies of Imam Zaman (aj) are against saying it in Namaz so Imam confirms them until now.

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17 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam reciting Shia Azaan/Iqamah was not common even after major occultation of Imam Mahdi (aj) until establishing Shia governments like Safavids but as in every era at least one Mujtahid & Marja could visit Imam Mahdi (aj) which Imam Mahdi (aj) not ordered them to stop saying Shahadat Salisa in Azan & Iqama but all Maraji as deputies of Imam Zaman (aj) are against saying it in Namaz so Imam confirms them until now.

For being a deputy, you need to have some proof
sorry but without evidence, one who claims to be a deputy is a liar.
None of Imams were against Shahadat e salisa in Namaz as well.

Marajae are nothing but people who have taken responsibility of providing people with the rulings and
teachings of Aima (عليه السلام), not use qias and do anything they want. they have not been sent from sky to
guide us.

 

Also hadith of Taqleed has 4 conditions, on which taqleed should be done:
one of them is Mutee an li amr e Mola (عليه السلام)
Please provide me with single hadith that salat is batil with Ali-un-wali-ullah in Tashahud
Please provide me with single hadith that any Imam in azaan recited or ordered Ali-un-wali-ullah
Else conditions of taqleed aren't satisfied since That Mullah isn't following Imam's hadiths, rather
innovating deen with his personal views.

Number two, Tashahud of Imam e Raza (عليه السلام) is there and Imam e Sadiq is there,
while you don't have even a weak hadith to support your stance while above hadiths,
are inline with Qur'an and Against the AHle-Sunnah as well.
 

A fatwa against saying of Masoom (عليه السلام) is not qol-e-Masoom  brother.  

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On 2/21/2020 at 10:57 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

now try to defend that your mujtahids used hadiths to give fatwa that namaz is batil with third testimony.
else at least accept they use Qias!

 

15 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Marajae are nothing but people who have taken responsibility of providing people with the rulings and
teachings of Aima (عليه السلام), not use qias and do anything they want. they have not been sent from sky to
guide us.

The failing to get ant logical answer for your conjectures / qiyas about third testimony the comments are obviously turning against the taqleed of learned jurist and marajey. This is quite common in few less educated areas in  Punjab Pakistan . It is not a new phenomena but a paid one by the enemies of Islam and Shiite who have tried to turned it against the Marajey kram instead they have been ordered to be consulted by Imams during the days of occultation.

No helpful comments or logical evidences to recite a third testimony as mandatory in Tashahud or Namaz. Its a compete failure of thinking still in this thread by the follower of non jurist mullah and alike who have been paid to make foolish statements at the Mimber whom do not represent the true followers of Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام)

wasalam

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17 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

The failing to get ant logical answer for your conjectures / qiyas about third testimony the comments are obviously turning against the taqleed of learned jurist and marajey. This is quite common in few less educated areas in  Punjab Pakistan . It is not a new phenomena but a paid one by the enemies of Islam and Shiite who have tried to turned it against the Marajey kram instead they have been ordered to be consulted by Imams during the days of occultation.

No helpful comments or logical evidences to recite a third testimony as mandatory in Tashahud or Namaz. Its a compete failure of thinking still in this thread by the follower of non jurist mullah and alike who have been paid to make foolish statements at the Mimber whom do not represent the true followers of Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام)

wasalam

People hopefully who have eyes can see how much confused you are now since you ran out of dalaaeil. Sorry but had to say this.

I questioned you people to prove your azaan/iqamah based on your own standards and you failed to do so. 

You talk about punjabi non certified mullahs?

I can give you names of 10+ Mujtahids who allowed recital based on Fiqh e Kamil and 50+ how allowed it in tashahud based on hadiths. Are they jahil Pakistani punjabi zakirs? 

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3 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

People hopefully who have eyes can see how much confused you are now since you ran out of dalaaeil. Sorry but had to say this.

I questioned you people to prove your azaan/iqamah based on your own standards and you failed to do so.

So  you are a Shia whose Azan and Iqama are not defined?

Pretty sure confused statements because of no supportive evidence for the conjectures is found in these threads for  conjectures considering 3rd testimony as mandatory in Namaz / tahsud.

No way out found yet by OP but disrespect of learned jurist and marajey by the support of non jurist mullah and alike whose foolish action to amuse the audience with every possible trick displayed at Mimber to make the 3rd testimony mandatory in namaz / tashud.

:grin:

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

So  you are a Shia whose Azan and Iqama are not defined?

Pretty sure confused statements because of no supportive evidence for the conjectures is found in these threads for  conjectures considering 3rd testimony as mandatory in Namaz / tahsud.

No way out found yet by OP but disrespect of learned jurist and marajey by the support of non jurist mullah and alike whose foolish action to amuse the audience with every possible trick displayed at Mimber to make the 3rd testimony mandatory in namaz / tashud.

:grin:

wasalam

Actually you are a Shia whose azaan/iqamah aren't defined since you say 3rd testimony isn't a part of Azaan/iqamah.
I say azaan/iqamah are fixed.

I proved using two hadiths that addition/reduction from Azaan/iqamah without taqiiyah is biddah
you didn't come up with any proof that Azaan/Iqamah aren't fixed and we can add to them.

Is Ayatullah Sheikh sanad a jahil punjabi zakir or a learned Jurist?
He allows third testimony as a juzz of Tashahud hahahah I will wait for non-political answer.

I didn't come here to prove anything so I didn't have to bring any evidence lol.
I questioned you Azaan/Iqamah as per your standards which you failed to prove.

 

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On 2/22/2020 at 3:47 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam reciting Shia Azaan/Iqamah was not common even after major occultation of Imam Mahdi (aj) until establishing Shia governments like Safavids but as in every era at least one Mujtahid & Marja could visit Imam Mahdi (aj) which Imam Mahdi (aj) not ordered them to stop saying Shahadat Salisa in Azan & Iqama but all Maraji as deputies of Imam Zaman (aj) are against saying it in Namaz so Imam confirms them until now.

which marja visits him in present day? Bring proof that Imam Mahdi was in contact with marjas in every era.

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14 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Actually you are a Shia whose azaan/iqamah aren't defined since you say 3rd testimony isn't a part of Azaan/iqamah.
I say azaan/iqamah are fixed.

So you Finally Agree to our stance about the third testimony is recited in Aazan and Iqama as permitted by jurist, scholars and marajey.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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11 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

So you Finally Agree to our stance about the third testimony is recited in Aazan and Iqama as permitted by jurist, scholars and marajey.

wasalam

I don't know what to say to you brother

You just don't want to say anything regarding your marajey

They lack evidence to prove these things while jahil punjabi zakirs at least use hadiths to back their claim up.

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food for thought chaps, but don't you think Umar would of removed the third testimony instead/as well as 'haya 'ala khayril amal' if it existed? However, 'Ali ('a) only complained about haya 'ala khayril 'amal being removed ;)

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On 2/25/2020 at 1:49 AM, ali47 said:

food for thought chaps, but don't you think Umar would of removed the third testimony instead/as well as 'haya 'ala khayril amal' if it existed? However, 'Ali ('a) only complained about haya 'ala khayril 'amal being removed ;)

Its Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) who was asked about removal of Haya Ala Khair il Amal from Azaana and he replied to it.
His (عليه السلام) answer is according to the question.

Also what about Tafseer e Imam Hassan Askari (عليه السلام) and Azaan given on the day of judgment? Will you answer?
(Under Tafseer of verse 91 of Surah Al Baqarah)

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On 2/25/2020 at 1:49 AM, ali47 said:

food for thought chaps, but don't you think Umar would of removed the third testimony instead/as well as 'haya 'ala khayril amal' if it existed? However, 'Ali ('a) only complained about haya 'ala khayril 'amal being removed ;)

Hence one who says, I believe in Muhammad’s prophethood but not in the Wilayat Ali ((عليه السلام).), is like one who does not have faith on the Prophethood of Muhammad (S) also, because when Allah raises the people on Judgment Day, an announcer will call out through which their faith and infidelity will be distinguished. They will say: Allaahu Akbar Allaahu Akbar.

Another announcer will say: O people, you join in saying this. At that time the atheists will become dumb and not be able to say anything whereas other people will repeat the words. Thus the atheists will be separated from people of religion.

After that the announcer will say: Ashhado Anlaa ilaaha illallaah’. All will repeat this but polytheists will become dumb and thus they will be separated. Then again the announcer will say: ‘Ashhado Anna Muhammadan Rasoolillaah.’ All Muslims will utter and Jews, Israelis and all polytheists will become dumb and not be able to utter this. A voice will come: Take them to Paradise, but another voice will come from Allah:

وَقِفُوهُمْ إِنَّهُم مَّسْئُولُونَ

And stop them, for they shall be questioned. Surah Saffat 37:24

The angels will ask: O Lord! Why are they stopped? Another revelation will come from Allah: “And stop them, for they shall be questioned about the Wilayat of Ali Ibne Abi Talib ((عليه السلام).).”

That is, they will be asked about the Wilayat of Ali Ibne Abi Talib and the Wilayat of Aale Muhammad. O My servants and maidservants, I ordered to give one more testimony with the testimony for Muhammad, if they fulfill it, they will get more rewards and increase in good deeds.

If they don’t fulfill it, they will not gain anything for giving witness to the prophethood of Muhammad (S) and My Lordship. One who brings this testimony will be successful and one who does not bring it, will be destroyed.
https://www.al-Islam.org/tafseer-Imam-Hasan-askari/exegesis-surah-baqarah-verses-63-92#exegesis-surah-baqarah-verse-291

here man read and let me know.
The books has been used by Sistani and Khamenai as well when they quoted hadith  of Taqleed from this book.

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Since the Imam is in ghaibat his hujjat upon us are the marjas. 

If  marja under which I am in taqleed of allows it then we can read else we can't. 

Forget this dispute and let it be resolved once Imam reappears. The more we fight more our enemies will be happy. Our enemies just want to end us and will use every single opportunity to create discord among us. 

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7 minutes ago, Nadeemsayyed110 said:

If  marja under which I am in taqleed of allows it then we can read else we can't. 

We are. 

In regards to Ayatullah Sistani a.r third testimony is not part of azaan and iqamah. But it is good to say it to get sawaab and even azaan and iqamah is mustahab to read unlike tashahud

 

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