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In the Name of God بسم الله
Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Double standards of Shias with azaan/iqamah and Namaz

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13 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

So Khamenai, Bashir Najafi and Sistani and company also allow adding this to Adhan/Iqamah
Whether as mustahab or whatever
Thus it makes them innovators as per your statement

Personally believe this way of allowing it is just academic gymnastics to preserve the sentiment of the masses. If they came out and said it is biddah to say, most Shias would be irate as the practice has become a point of distinction of Shias vs the rest of the Muslim world. Look at how Dhakoo is blackballed in Shia circles for calling it an innovation.

The Ayatollahs say it is not part of the Adhan or Iqamah but we can say it under the niyyat that it is not apart of the adhan or iqamah. Yet, most Shias think it is essential in the Adhan.

On the same token, I have never heard a Shia adhan without it so it is basically a part of the Adhan now—although according to the marajah, it is not. Just goes to show how the subtle loophole is put in place as a happy medium to keep the masses happy and the ulema from being dishonest.

Edited by 786:)

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Basically what I've realized, that you people have failed to defend your azaan/iqamah and its batil according to your own standards.
I do believe it to be a juzz in Azaan/Iqamah and Namaz and thats seperate topic though.
But I don’t see anything writing something worth reply in discussion. Thanks anyways

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15 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

that you people have failed to defend your azaan/iqamah and its batil according to your own standards.

Because there is nothing to defend here. 

As per your logic Shia namaz is also Baatil since Qunoot is also mustahib.

You had no argument to speak of. Hence there is nothing to reply. Better think twice before starting such threads again. 

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Just now, starlight said:

Because there is nothing to defend here. 

As per your logic Shia namaz is also Baatil since Qunoot is also mustahib.

You had no argument to speak of. Hence there is nothing to reply. Better think twice before starting such threads again. 

sometimes, try to use your brain.

How come qunut is batil?
When Imam said Qunut isn't fixed, then it isn't fixed

Now show me that azaan isn't fixed

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Just now, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

sometimes, try to use your brain.

Sometimes try to practice iklhlaq. You have a severe deficiency of this essential component of faith.

1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

How come qunut is batil?

Where did I say Qunut is baatil?

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On 2/17/2020 at 5:42 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

You must listen to Muhammad Hussein Najafi Al-Maroof Dhakko lol

I don't need to listen to Mr... Dhakko while I am listening to Mr... Dhaddu.

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On 2/16/2020 at 8:51 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Azaan and Iqamah are mustahib

Thanks for acceptance the truth,

On 2/16/2020 at 8:51 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Why do you people object Sunnis if you think adding something to mustahab act is not biddah?

Because we are not follower of the second caliph for these words and Traveeh. Some one else may like it but not me.

:grin:

wasalam

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On 2/16/2020 at 8:51 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Why did Imam Ali raza (عليه السلام) term reduction of Hayaala khairil amal from azaan as hate for descendents of Fatimah s.a? Since its mustahab isn't it?

What does your question mean, the statement is confusing.

Do you mean haya Ala Kharil ammal is not part of Adhan?

wasalam

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On 2/17/2020 at 10:24 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Basically what I've realized, that you people have failed to defend your azaan/iqamah and its batil according to your own standards.

 

Basically what I've realized is that you are failed to realize anything. 

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On 2/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Many people here consider namaz to be batil with it.

Since no Imam recited it. (Atc to them)

You should revisit your old threads to know the reasons given there. 

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On 2/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Long time ago we have had a discussion on wilayat e Ali in tashahud

Many people here consider namaz to be batil with it.

Since no Imam recited it. (Atc to them)

May I question which Imam recited it in azaan/iqamah?

If none then congrats, all your azaan/iqamah have been batil till now.

Defend it.

You yourself are doing biddah 5 times a day aren't you?

The whole athan is bidah, come from Omar dream. And Bilal just say everything twice.  Omar the add salat is better then sleep, because he feel he owns athan. Mohammed only approve of this and didnt recommend or invent it. 

So if it came from Muslims dreams and musilms idea, and Muslims add and subtract from it, your athan isnt halal unless you recognize it's a bidahhhhhh hassanah. 

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7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

So Khamenai, Bashir Najafi and Sistani and company also allow adding this to Adhan/Iqamah
Whether as mustahab or whatever
Thus it makes them innovators as per your statement

No, they have all confirmed that it isn't part of the adhan or the prayers, which is consistent with our hadith. 

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On 2/17/2020 at 11:40 AM, azizaliallah said:

The whole athan is bidah, come from Omar dream. And Bilal just say everything twice.  Omar the add salat is better then sleep, because he feel he owns athan. Mohammed only approve of this and didnt recommend or invent it. 

So if it came from Muslims dreams and musilms idea, and Muslims add and subtract from it, your athan isnt halal unless you recognize it's a bidahhhhhh hassanah. 

Salam it's a fabrication that made in Sunni sources to justify distorting of Azan by three caliphs but in Shia narrations it's a revelation that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) taught it to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & he taught it to Bilal (رضي الله عنه) that later " Ali an wali o' Allah" at time of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) , it recited by some companions such as Salman Farsi (Muhammadi) (رضي الله عنه) & Abuzar ghafari (رضي الله عنه) after Ghadeer event that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) confirmed their recitation that this mentioned in Sunni sources too but rejection of Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) was for objecting of Ghulat at his era but he also confirmed saying it is a Fazilat (bonus) not Kamal (promoting ) of Azan but generaly saying  ‘Aliyun Waliullah’ is autonomous after " Muhammadun Rasullah) 

On 2/17/2020 at 10:14 AM, 786:) said:

Personally believe this way of allowing it is just academic gymnastics to preserve the sentiment of the masses. If they came out and said it is biddah to say, most Shias would be irate as the practice has become a point of distinction of Shias vs the rest of the Muslim world. Look at how Dhakoo is blackballed in Shia circles for calling it an innovation.

The Ayatollahs say it is not part of the Adhan or Iqamah but we can say it under the niyyat that it is not apart of the adhan or iqamah. Yet, most Shias think it is essential in the Adhan.

On the same token, I have never heard a Shia adhan without it so it is basically a part of the Adhan now—although according to the marajah, it is not. Just goes to show how the subtle loophole is put in place as a happy medium to keep the masses happy and the ulema from being dishonest.

I never heard a Sunni Azan with "Hayya Ala Khayril Amal " although its a wajib part that can't be neglected but first caliph easily removed it from Azan that his innovative Azan is now official Sunni Azan.

On 2/17/2020 at 10:04 AM, 786:) said:

I say ‘Hayya Ala Khayril Amal’ in my adhan and iqamah. Please tell me what is incomplete about my adhan.

I do not say ‘Aliyun Waliullah’ or ‘Asalaatu Khairul Min al Naum’. Both are deviations from the original Adhan of our master Muhammad (saw)—even if both statements are true.

it's your style like Shias can recite ‘Aliyun Waliullah’  or not recite it but ‘Asalaatu Khairul Min al Naum’ is pure innovation from second caliph 

http://wikifeqh.ir/مشروعیت_اشهد_ان_علیا_ولی_الله_در_اذان

https://iqna.ir/fa/news/3781757/أشهَدُ-أَنّ-عَلیاً-ولی‌َّالله-در-اذان-مستحب-است-یا-بدعت

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14 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

No, they have all confirmed that it isn't part of the adhan or the prayers, which is consistent with our hadith. 

show a hadith that says say Ali-un-wali-ullah in azaan but not as a part,
at least a nas on mustahab action please go ahead and write.
else its an innovation according to your standards.

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19 hours ago, Hassu93 said:

In this whole argument the OP has presented 0 facts. 0 sources and it's fully based on his own assumption.

I am demanding proof for Ali-un-wali-ullah in azaan/iqamah
how am I supposed to quote any source?
instead you people should've which you failed to do so.
also I demanded a hadith that allows addition of Ali-un-wali-ullah in azaan authentic as per usooli standards.
which you failed to present.
so this is what you people have done not me

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4 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

show a hadith that says say Ali-un-wali-ullah in azaan but not as a part,
at least a nas on mustahab action please go ahead and write.
else its an innovation according to your standards.

As I mentioned already it isn't part of the adhan nor is it part of the salah.

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Guest Pschological Warfare
On 2/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Long time ago we have had a discussion on wilayat e Ali in tashahud

Islamic Acts/Laws

Quote

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect I.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof. However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

    I) The man concerned should be a Mujtahid (jurist)1 himself and should know the Articles of Acts on the basis of Ijtihad2 and reason (I.e. he should be a man of such high learning and scholarship that he can solve problems from his study of the Qur’an and Hadith).

    ii) If he is not a jurist himself, he should follow a jurist I.e. he should act according to the judgment (fatwa) of the jurist without demanding proof.

    iii) If he is neither a jurist nor a follower (muqallid) he should act after taking such precaution that he should become sure of his having performed his religious duty. For example, if some jurists consider an act to be unlawful and some others say that it is not unlawful, he should not perform that act and in case some jurists consider an act to be obligatory (wajib) and others consider it to be recommended (mustahab) he should perform it. Hence it is obligatory for those persons who are not jurists and cannot also take precautionary measures (ihtiyat) to follow a jurist.3

https://www.al-Islam.org/Islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

If you do not follow a Mujtahid( I will use a simple term so there is not confusion- SME(Subject Matter Expert) , Very Learned person who has complete command of what is required and have studied what is not usually availabe to the layman(average ) people, like a Phd with extensive experience in the field. 

So, (ii) above says, if you do not follow, you need to be one. If you are one- your opinion is only yours - unless you are looking for followers, which which be circular logic. 

So, this matter is for the experts, and you can follow any one of them you like. 

Here are some old threads

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235038954-bida-in-adhan/

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235050103-the-real-Shia-adhan/

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

so you do a biddah by adding it into them whether as mustahab shahadat
its settled.

As already stated many times in the thread that Adhan are Iqama are Musteheb acts and not wajib or mandatory already agreed by yourself in this thread. Jurists / Maraje kram have permitted the third testimony in these as musteheb but not as part of Adhan or iqahmah that I believe and follow.

But this third testimony is not permitted (even as Musteheb by Marajey as there was no hadith found for its authenticity I think)  in the prayer in Tashud  being part of the prayer,  and that has not been permitted in it. But as per your thought third testimony is to be recited in Tahsud being wajib/ mandatory.

Yes you do have right to disagree since you dot not believe in the jurists or marajey kram to be consulted in the period of occultation / ghayba of 12th Imam.

I have concluded the discussion carried out so far in an amicable way.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

so you do a biddah by adding it into them whether as mustahab shahadat
its settled.

And why do you assume that all biddah is bad?

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Basically what I understand from the general sentiment of this thread is that you can basically “add” whatever you want to the Adhan as long as you know what you are saying is not a part of the Adhan.

Respectfully, this makes no sense to me. One could add “ashuduanna Trump Idiotullah” as long as they know this is not a part of the Adhan. Just sounds foolish.

Those who disagreed with my post earlier about the Ulema, please provide substance as to why my position is not valid.

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On 2/14/2020 at 3:43 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Long time ago we have had a discussion on wilayat e Ali in tashahud

Many people here consider namaz to be batil with it.

Since no Imam recited it. (Atc to them)

May I question which Imam recited it in azaan/iqamah?

If none then congrats, all your azaan/iqamah have been batil till now.

Defend it.

You yourself are doing biddah 5 times a day aren't you?

If one is truthful and honest then you will know the the third shahada has never been part of the azan or iqama since the early days of Shi'ism. Read the paper by Liyakat Takim http://www.ltakim.com/Adhan.pdf

Unfortunately we Shi'is have now become known for ashadu ala Ali waliulah instead of hayya 'ala khayril 'amal. I personally do not understand why the Ulema don't just say it as it is, but then again I imagine it's not top priority. I hear Grand Ayatollah Allama Shaikh Muhammad Hussain Najafi has a similar view and it not afraid to call out the cultural practices - he sounds like a good alim. Remember, Imam 'Ali's (a) main issue with 'Umar concerning furu ud deen was his innovations of tarawih and changing the azan - we can't just come along and do the same!

Edited by ali47

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6 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

so you do a biddah by adding it into them whether as mustahab shahadat
its settled.

You don’t have monopoly on bidah.

It being fabricated or bidah in not good enough.  When Omar have dream, musilms create Azan. This is Sahih  Ahadith.

3pl5kg.jpg

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Guest Hussain O Minni
2 hours ago, ali47 said:

If one is truthful and honest then you will know the the third shahada has never been part of the azan or iqama since the early days of Shi'ism. Read the paper by Liyakat Takim http://www.ltakim.com/Adhan.pdf

Unfortunately we Shi'is have now become known for ashadu ala Ali waliulah instead of hayya 'ala khayril 'amal. I personally do not understand why the Ulema don't just say it as it is, but then again I imagine it's not top priority. I hear Grand Ayatollah Allama Shaikh Muhammad Hussain Najafi has a similar view and it not afraid to call out the cultural practices - he sounds like a good alim. Remember, Imam 'Ali's (a) main issue with 'Umar concerning furu ud deen was his innovations of tarawih and changing the azan - we can't just come along and do the same!

Alhumdulillah. Thank you for this link--it is very informative. I have always had my skepticism for the 3rd testimony, but this gives me closure.

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3 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

You don’t have monopoly on bidah.

It being fabricated or bidah in not good enough.  When Omar have dream, musilms create Azan. This is Sahih  Ahadith.

OP isn't Sunni...

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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19 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

so you do a biddah by adding it into them whether as mustahab shahadat
its settled.

This is what we already informed you previously. Alhamdulillah you have corrected your stance and realized that it isn't part of salah or adhan. 

Edited by Mahdavist

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I used to live in Lahore and used to love it. Then I started to really hate that place as it became totally foreign as refugees from other cities with totally different brains settled into my city. So I left it on my own accord. Now the place is a cesspool. Dishonest shop keepers, traders, everyone a fraud, criminals, fornicator, drinker, corrupt bribery loving usurpers. I feel stumped how quickly the place turned into a zombie land full of satanic undead who so quickly lost their humanity. How education is lost on them. Its political party and their supporters are exactly the same and defy all evidence, all logic and root for the world's most corrupt politicians ever. Money is their religion. Its useless talking to such people. Only the Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) will fix them. I don't know what but there is something very wrong with most Lahoris. They eat donkey meat and their shwarma burgers are made of frog meat. Surprising how a squad of pan selling zakirs became most learned ayatullahs of the galaxy. Not. Of all the enemies of Shi'ism these guys are the worst because they just keep on spewing nonsense and are immune to all evidence and logic. Be it religion, politics, whatever.

 

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30 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

 Only the Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) will fix them. I don't know what but there is something very wrong with most Lahoris. They eat donkey meat and their shwarma burgers are made of frog meat. Surprising how a squad of pan selling zakirs became most learned ayatullahs of the galaxy. Not. Of all the enemies of Shi'ism these guys are the worst because they just keep on spewing nonsense and are immune to all evidence and logic. Be it religion, politics, whatever.

They seem try to make a tyfon in the cup of tea. Is not so?

1427268603_Cupoftea.thumb.jpg.a61e42aca50cb6bc8ac81dbca57875a0.jpg

Regards

 

Edited by Muslim2010

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Some of their network leaders recently received funding from a western ambassador. We have names and full details. We see the whole plumbing, the sewage pumps, everything.

 

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20 hours ago, 786:) said:

Basically what I understand from the general sentiment of this thread is that you can basically “add” whatever you want to the Adhan as long as you know what you are saying is not a part of the Adhan.

Respectfully, this makes no sense to me. One could add “ashuduanna Trump Idiotullah” as long as they know this is not a part of the Adhan. Just sounds foolish.

It is believed to have originated out of others attacking Imam Ali (A) in their adhan, and this was used to combat it.

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On 2/14/2020 at 8:43 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Long time ago we have had a discussion on wilayat e Ali in tashahud

Many people here consider namaz to be batil with it.

Since no Imam recited it. (Atc to them)

May I question which Imam recited it in azaan/iqamah?

If none then congrats, all your azaan/iqamah have been batil till now.

Defend it.

You yourself are doing biddah 5 times a day aren't you?

Answer is as follows :D

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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On 2/17/2020 at 9:24 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Basically what I've realized, that you people have failed to defend your azaan/iqamah and its batil according to your own standards.
I do believe it to be a juzz in Azaan/Iqamah and Namaz and thats seperate topic though.
But I don’t see anything writing something worth reply in discussion. Thanks anyways

I came to an answer. 

In adhzan Aliyun waliullah became a bayah to whom you follow after Prophet as it isnt clear who is Shia and who is non-Shia. However, there is also haya ala khairul amal which refers to Imams who should be followed after Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

However, in prayer, this is done by salwaat and no salaat is complete without salwaat.

It's not necessary every worship be similar, fast and Hajj are different but if you don’t believe in Ali (عليه السلام), it's not acceptable, even though you don’t have to pronounce Imam Ali's name in fast and Hajj.

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