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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are we infinite consciousness?

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  • Advanced Member
10 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

I am sorry. I think we are not understanding each other.  It is probably my fault.

 

16 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

You don’t know at all what is meant by all merciful but you agreed that thoughts, words and experience are indistinguishable and each of them tell about other. It means you don’t know mercy and therefore you don't know all merciful. In other words, you aren't born. In other words, I'm talking to air so I am going to bang my head on to wall, after this argument with "invisible man". 

"The End".

Salam,

I have an idea of the meaning of the word “all-merciful” because after all it is an idea!  However, I also know that this idea is both, not real and not unreal.  I know that this idea is both not the One and not other than the One.  In other words, I only know that I do not know the One by knowing only what it is not.  This admittance of not knowing is precisely what real submission (Islam) is all about.  Through submitting or letting go of your presumed knowing, you are satisfied that only God knows God.  This unknowing and letting go is in fact a knowing of God, not through your self, but through God’s Self.

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On 2/8/2020 at 8:34 AM, eThErEaL said:

Salam brother,

mind explaining to us what you see is happening in those verses?

Alaikum As-Salam Brother!

On 2/7/2020 at 8:21 PM, Cool said:

Surah Ar-Rahman, Verse 26-27:
كُلُّ مَنْ عَلَيْهَا فَانٍ

وَيَبْقَىٰ وَجْهُ رَبِّكَ ذُو الْجَلَالِ وَالْإِكْرَامِ

So we are not infinite until or unless we identify ourselves as "wajhullah"

Are you claiming that all of us are "wajhullah"?

17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

If one thinks that an individual person (or a group of persons) are themselves the Names of God, then this is obviously Shirk.

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 180:
وَلِلَّهِ الْأَسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَىٰ فَادْعُوهُ بِهَا وَذَرُوا الَّذِينَ يُلْحِدُونَ فِي أَسْمَائِهِ سَيُجْزَوْنَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

And Allah's are the best names, therefore call on Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His names; they shall be recompensed for what they did.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 181:
وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.
(English - Shakir)

Why not you strive to create harmony between your philosophy & the words of God as mentioned in Qur'an Al-Hakeem?

18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Even a Ghafil/ a Heedless individual is nothing but a “Muslim” (in this specific sense) who has submitted to God (after all: God says, there is nothing in the heavens and the Earth that is not submitted or that doesn’t glorify God).  Etc etc.

You forgot to mention طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا (willingly or unwillingly), and that is the difference. How can anyone submitting un-willingly becomes a Muslim? 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 34:
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ

And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
(English - Shakir)

 

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Salam,

I have an idea of the meaning of the word “all-merciful” because after all it is an idea!  However, I also know that this idea is both, not real and not unreal.  I know that this idea is both not the One and not other than the One.  In other words, I only know that I do not know the One by knowing only what it is not.  This admittance of not knowing is precisely what real submission (Islam) is all about.  Through submitting or letting go of your presumed knowing, you are satisfied that only God knows God.  This unknowing and letting go is in fact a knowing of God, not through your self, but through God’s Self.

brother, you accept one thing and then take a u-turn. You accepted before that words, thoughts and experience are connected. Now, you take a reverse gear and say you don’t know to what word mercy refers to, and therefore you don’t know God. 

Besides, you think God cannot give his marifah to us which is actually thinking as if you confine God. 

Islamic belief which came to us from Prophet (PBUHHP) and Ahlebait (عليه السلام), is that you can know God but you cannot comprehend his greatness.

The word existence or non-existence, cannot be in one place which you often  quote and that's notable flaw in your theory. You say "both real and unreal". lola. 

Your theory is incompatible to observations. Have you seen anything which is "real and unreal".

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53 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

brother, you accept one thing and then take a u-turn.

I believe I have been very consistent.  The only times I am not consistent is when I accept that I explicitly accept that I was wrong.  As far as this is concerned I believe I have been pretty consistent.

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You accepted before that words, thoughts and experience are connected.

I said and I still say that that words/ thoughts and the reality of experience (aka Being), are like waves to the ocean.  The waves are not separate entities from the ocean because the waves (or thoughts) and the ocean (Being) are nothing but water. 

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Now, you take a reverse gear and say you don’t know to what word mercy refers to, and therefore you don’t know God. 

All thoughts and ideas are nothing but waves on this ocean of Being.  They ALL express Being / God.  But this expression can only be seen as an expression if you see that this wave or thought is not God and also not other than God.  Notice the double negatives.

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Besides, you think God cannot give his marifah to us which is actually thinking as if you confine God. 
 

how can God “give” marifa when our essential Self is none other than God Himself?  There is nothing for Him to give, and we only come to know that there is nothing for Him to give once we know who we really are!  
Now look, I am not saying all this through speculation.  I am not philosophizing here.  I am not “arguing” with you.  Please understand this.  I am sorry if I am unable to articulate myself adequately.  

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Islamic belief which came to us from Prophet (PBUHHP) and Ahlebait (عليه السلام), is that you can know God but you cannot comprehend his greatness.

you can know God but knowing that you always already knew God since the the “You” that knows God is none other than God.  Those who don’t know God mistake themselves for other than God.  

 

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The word existence or non-existence, cannot be in one place which you often  quote and that's notable flaw in your theory. You say "both real and unreal". lola. 

Your theory is incompatible to observations. Have you seen anything which is "real and unreal".

It is not a theory dear brother.  But, like I said, I am not able to write clearly.  So I am to be blamed perhaps.  And God knows Best.

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On 2/8/2020 at 8:02 PM, eThErEaL said:

I am clearly not doing a good job explaining this:  my apologies.

And my apologies for being a dumb student who invite extraordinary efforts for understanding things. 

On 2/8/2020 at 8:02 PM, eThErEaL said:

”We” is not a collective of individuals.  “we” is literally the names of God.  

If this is what you & the OP means by "WE" , then I don't think anyone would disagree. The problem here is still that does "We" really means "names of God"? 

 

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17 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

@Ashvazdanghe O! The lonevwarrior save me. :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

 

6 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

And my apologies for being a dumb student who invite extraordinary efforts for understanding things. 

If this is what you & the OP means by "WE" , then I don't think anyone would disagree. The problem here is still that does "We" really means "names of God"? 

 

Salam @eThErEaL said that he is is his Imam so he can refers to himselsf as " Name of God" too because he has self praising belief with mixing of Sufi & Salafi ideas  that calls himself as "we" here but in Shia Islam we believe to being in between of "Free will" & and "being Autonomous with pre planned   destination " that Imams & Prophet Muhammd (pbu) are Wajhullah as caliphs of Allah on Earth (world) that can do everything with permission of Allah that their limit is reaching to Allah status but they are not demigods .

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10 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

@Logic1234

Isn’t that what the Sayings of the Imam says? 

Imams call themselves as Ayaat or signs but did not considered themselves as partners. When Allah says we, it shouldnt be taken for two meanings:

1. Appreciation of his creation that obeys him, or

2. Linguistical etiquette, where in if you imply some highest being, we don’t use "you" but by "we".

brother, the worst fear is that you are taking lava of salafism in the Antarctica of sufism. May Allah (عزّ وجلّ) help you.

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3 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Imams call themselves as Ayaat or signs but did not considered themselves as partners. When Allah says we, it shouldnt be taken for two meanings:

Alright.....But did I ever say that they consider themselves as partners?  
???  ???  :)  

 

 

3 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

1. Appreciation of his creation that obeys him, or

2. Linguistical etiquette, where in if you imply some highest being, we don’t use "you" but by "we".

brother, the worst fear is that you are taking lava of salafism in the Antarctica of sufism. May Allah (عزّ وجلّ) help you.

I am just want to be true to myself.  I cannot accept what I cannot verify.  So, if Salafism and Wahhabism is the truth then Alhamdulillah, I am happy to be the greatest wahhabi.  And if Sufism is the truth, I am happy to be the greatest Sufi.  If Shiaism is true then Alhamdulillah, I am happy to be the greatest Shia.  If Atheism is true, I am happy to be the greatest Atheist.  

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21 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

@Logic1234

Isn’t that what the Sayings of the Imam says? 

What I understand from that hadith is that Imam (عليه السلام) was talking about the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

The "Nehno" in Nehno asma Allahul husna & "Nehno" in Nehno wajhullah are pointing towards them only. Although, in a sense, we can assume ourselves as "Asma Allah" too. 

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2 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

What I understand from that hadith is that Imam (عليه السلام) was talking about the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

The "Nehno" in Nehno asma Allahul husna & "Nehno" in Nehno wajhullah are pointing towards them only. Although, in a sense, we can assume ourselves as "Asma Allah" too. 

So, how do you make sense of this contradiction? 

It is really something very clear and obvious.  You and I both know very well that the Names of God are everything and all there is!  The moment you make the Names of God a distinct reality set apart from other things then that means we don’t know what we are talking about.  The Names of God are, in reality, not compartmentalized - they are not disparate! They are, with respect to their referent (Misdaq), One Reality!  This is your fundamental Shiite Theology regarding the nature of God’s Names.  There is certainly a Hierarchy of Names.  Names encompass each other.  For example the All-Encompassing Name is “Allah”, and second to which is “Rahman”.  But these names of God are a seamless unity.  They are not to be “set-apart” from each other.  They are contained in each other.  Most importantly, the names of God are certainly (WITHOUT DOUBT) not individuals or persons!!!

So, when the Imams are saying “we are the most beautiful names of God”, they are not saying anything extraordinary.  The only thing special about them is that they realize it.  Even you and I (we) can say it!  But “who” is the “you”, “I” or “we” that would be saying it?  

 

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On 2/11/2020 at 12:37 PM, eThErEaL said:

So, how do you make sense of this contradiction? 

It is really something very clear and obvious.

There is no contradiction in it. We know that who is "Kalimatullah" in Qur'an, who is Wajhullah, who is Lisanullah, who is Janbullah etc. Do you have any doubt about that? 

So what I said is that we can "assume" ourselves as the "Asma Allah" in a sense. And for that "in a sense" I need to interpret situation as well as the verse in my own words. If all of us are "Asma Allah" according to that verse of Qur'an, what you have to say about the phrase "وَذَرُواْ الَّذِينَ يُلْحِدُونَ فِي أَسْمَآئِهِ" ? 

There is no contradiction, in fact the very next verse also explains the hadith in which Imam (عليه السلام) has said "Nehno asma Allah ul Husna":

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ 
And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.

These specific people are the Asma Allah... guide with truth, do justice with truth.

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:24 PM, eThErEaL said:

“he who knows himself, knows His Lord”

Salaam,
Couldn’t this also be interpreted to mean that once we no the limitations of ourselves, we will understand that there is a Unique, Unlimited/ Infinite Creator or Mover or Sustainer.

e.g.

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“How is He hidden from you when He showed you His Omnipotence in your own self? He brought you into being when you did not exist. His Omnipotence is shown in your old age after youth, in your strength after weakness, and in your weakness after strength; in your illness after health, and your health after illness; in your pleasure after anger, and your anger after pleasure; in your sadness after happiness, and your happiness after sadness; in liking after disliking, and in disliking after liking; in deciding after refusing, and in refusing after deciding... in your hope after despair, and your despair after hope; in the idea which was not in your imagination, and in the removal of what you had as a belief.”

 

Ibn Abu al-’Awja’ said, “He was still counting to me (the proofs of) His Omnipotence in my own self, which I could not reject, until I started believing that Allah would appear between me and him.”42”


Also, wouldn’t this hadith tie into the earlier discussion of manifestation (not the discussion of consciousness) or I am missing something?

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28 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Salaam,
Couldn’t this also be interpreted to mean that once we no the limitations of ourselves, we will understand that there is a Unique, Unlimited/ Infinite Creator or Mover or Sustainer.

e.g.

Wa Alaykum Salam!


This Hadith is meant for everyone to benefit from in their own way and at their own level.  One who is dualistic will interpret that Hadith dualistically. So, yes, it can also be interpreted in that way. But there are interpretations which are based on an even higher level of understanding (a non-dual understanding).  The one inclined towards non-duality affirms even the dualistic understanding as well, but the one who is dualistic is unable to affirm the understanding of the one who is non-dualistically inclined.  

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Also, wouldn’t this hadith tie into the earlier discussion of manifestation (not the discussion of consciousness) or I am missing something?

Which discussion on manifestation?

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16 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Which discussion on manifestation?

The one on “do we manifest Allah’s attributes”. Isn’t it related to that more?

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