Islamic Government

[Abu Nur]

Quote

No scholar I know of disagrees with Islamic government or uprising against the thalims.

It always depends on situation.

[TryHard]

4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I have been very patient with you. Alas, my patience is wearing thin. You say I'm disingenuous but you don't explain how,  so I can't help with you with that and regardless of your feelings about me,  I didn't narrate these hadiths out of thin air.  Nobody is above the Imams (عليه السلام) or Muhammad (sawas).  Also, I can clearly see these hadiths having no other interpretation than the one I presented.

The language is very literal. It doesn't take an hadith expert to comprehend that, in the end times, the faqihs will pursue religious knowledge for the sake of power and influence. They will fight Al-Mahdi (afts) and they will accept his rule begrudgingly. 

There are hadiths that say not say the Imam’s(عليه السلام) name I’ve you take things out of context it can lead you astray and the wrong kind of extremism.

reading all your nonsense it is clear how misguided you are. The scholars are definitely more guided than you. Astaghfirullah you sound like someone who follows Ahmad al Hassan nonsense. 

 You unfortunately forget hadiths like this 

وأما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا” فيها إلى رواة حديثنا، فإنهم حجتي عليكم وأنا حجة الله عليهم. "

as for what happens after me go to the narrators of our Hadith for surely they are hujjah (proof) on you and I am hujjah of Allah on them.

your ignoring the command of your Imam (عليه السلام) @Gaius I. Caesar but as long as the Shia do nothing and america is happy maybe that is fine for you. You talk about the scholars fighting the Imam (عليه السلام) though one not saying all scholars are good but if anyone where to go and fight the Imam (عليه السلام) I feel it is people with your messed up mentality. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by TryHard

[TryHard]

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

It always depends on situation.

Well Gauis says it’s wrong completely. That is what I’m arguing against. 
 

though in general all scholars agree it’s permissible to have an Islamic government not only that but it’s good if not wajib to have one. The situation only might only change if it’s wajib or not and not if it is okay or not because it is Always okay albeit the goal of the Prophets (عليه السلام) that’s why shaheed al Sadr (رضي الله عنه) said when Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) succeeded in his revolution “the dream of the Prophets has been realized” 

[eThErEaL]

I never saw the Islamic Republic of Iran as a sacred institution.  This doesn’t mean I hate it or that I don’t like it.  But to me it is just a system of government that is man made.  There is nothing divine or truly religious about it.  
 

like any system, it can be critiqued and praised.  My criticism of it is that those who support it make it sound like it is a divine or a sacred system and that obeying the system is like obeying God’s representative!  This is problematic to me.  But then again, there are many other things that one can find problematic in this world... and so I couldn’t care less.  

Edited February 8, 2020 by eThErEaL

[83838]

26 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

sacred institution.

Is there any sacred institution?

[eThErEaL]

10 minutes ago, 000 said:

Is there any sacred institution?

Depends what you mean by institution.  

[eThErEaL]

55 minutes ago, 000 said:

Is there any sacred institution?

(Government wise?) There isn’t any.  People will project sacredness onto anything.  There are still a number of “Christian” Americans see the US as a sacred government that is favored by God.  Also, Zionist Jews feel that they are fulfilling God’s promise.  Iran makes Shias believe that the regime is like Imam Mahdi (as)‘a govt.
 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by eThErEaL

[83838]

10 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

(Government wise?) There isn’t any.  
 

 

t mean any kind of institution you can think of... not just government.

Edited February 8, 2020 by 000

[Shiawarrior313]

37 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Iran makes Shias believe that the regime is like Imam Mahdi (as)‘a govt.

Iran does no such thing. Iran sets forth the path to Imam Mahdi's (عليه السلام) revolution and government.

A society is made of systems and institutions, these institutions direct a society to a certain path. eg. Usury based economic system is war against Allah and will move the society away from him, hence away from wanting and supporting Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).

There are well over thousands of systems governing a society. The role of the Islamic revolution in Iran and its influence elsewhere is to setup and direct these institution to move the society towards God. The more systems it can convert from Westernized to Islamic, the closer and more ready the society becomes for Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).

This is the purpose of the Islamic revolution that will go on till the revolution of Imam Mahdi. Its a revolution cause its aways revolting against the existing systems.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 2/6/2020 at 2:37 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@Sirius_Bright @Moalfas @Abu Nur @starlight @Ashvazdanghe

So it's with great trepidation that I write this, because I'm not sure I'm giving this subject  the tact and sensitivity that it deserves. Plus, I have no desire to insult any scholars.

To Ashvazdanghe- My views aren't born of the idea that secularism is somehow better than Islam. Rather they are informed by hadiths like this: 

 

“... said the Imam: “Oh Mufaddal, every bay’ah before the reappearance of the Riser is a bay’ah of disbelief, hypocrisy and trickery. God’s curse be upon he who pledges it, and he who takes it.”

 

1. Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 53, pp. 8.

 

In Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 69, pp. 132.

 

al-Imam al-Ṣādiq told Ḥamrān bin Aʾyan: “Whoever opposed you in this matter is a zindeeq,” Ḥamrān said: Even if he was a ʿalawi and a fāṭimi (Sayyid)? He said: “Even if he was a muḥammadi, ʿalawi and a fāṭimi.”

 

In a long tradition in Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 30, pp. 18, the Prophet says,

 

“…Whoever makes an uprising and he is not one of my household, [then] they are the dajjāliya…”

 

فأيَّما راية خرجت ليست من أهل بيتي فهي الدجالية

 

“Had our Riser risen, he would’ve began with those who claim [arrogate] our love, so he would hit their necks.”

 

«لو قد قام قائمنا بدأ بالذين ينتحلون حبنا فيضرب رقابهم»

 

[al-Iḍhāḥ, pp. 208-209].

 

As a Muslim, reading these hadiths has made me apprehensive and cautious of supporting wilayat al-faqih in general. Especially since the current understanding of it is only fourty years old. Personally, when it comes to the people of Nuh (عليه السلام), I find more similarity with some members who quick to judge anyone as non Shias for disagreeing with the current WF theory and yet, they always preach about unity. 

 

Unity is good, but one cannot be so quick to label his own brothers with takfir and plead with our Sunni selves for unity at the same time. That's what is truly disingenuous and damaging for the Ummah. There's no other word for it except unacceptable. 

 

The verse 4:59 doesn't imply the authority of the fuqaha, but rather the authority of the Imamah and the Prophet's deputy as per my previous post. Again, "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O' people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification." [33:33]

 

This purification is needed for a true Islamic government.

 

 To everyone else- If I wanted to justify WF, I wouldn't know what to do about the hadiths like this: “When al-Imam al-Mahdi emerges, he won’t have any clear enemy other than the religious authorities [jurists], he and his sword are brothers, and if it wasn’t by the sword in his hand, they would have have delivered verdicts to kill him, but God will support him by the sword and by generosity. They [the jurists] will obey him and will be fearful [of him]. Thus, they would be accepting his rule without faith, but they will have enmity against him.”

 

1. Bayān al-Aʾimmah, vol. 3, page 99. 

 

Or: Imam Ali sa

On 2/5/2020 at 6:36 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

From Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as):

(٣٣٠٩٢) ٣ - وعن عدة من أصحابنا، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن أبي عبد الله المؤمن، عن ابن مسكان، عن سليمان بن خالد، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: اتقوا الحكومة فان الحكومة إنما هي للإمام العالم بالقضاء، العادل في المسلمين لنبي (١) أو وصي نبي

“Beware of the government, for the government surely is for the Imam who is knowledgeable of law, the just among the Muslims - a Prophet, or the Trustee of a Prophet [is the only authority].”

References:

1. Al-Kāfī, vol. 6, pp. 406.
2. Wasāʿil al-Shīʿah, vol. 27, pp. 17.

I stay far, far away from what you and many others associate our religion with. It doesn't matter if the people are Shia or kuffar, government is strictly in the domain of the Mahdi (afts).

 

On 2/7/2020 at 4:32 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

So essentially, nobody agrees with Imam Sadiq  (عليه السلام) that the Islamic government and the matters involved with it are for the Mahdi (afts) alone? A sad sign of the upcoming end times.

I think if people are going to establish a government  with Islamic principles, it will probably be under a shura but regardless of what I think, it seems any human attempt of establishing an "Islamic government" is a transgression against the Mahdi (afts) and by extension, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

id: “...and everyone who rises from my sons before al-Mahdi, then he is a jazūr (slaughtered camel), beware of the dajjāls from the children of Fatima, for indeed there are dajjāls from the children of Fatima, and a dajjāl shall emerge from the dajjāls of Basra, he’s not from me, and he’s at the front of all dajjāls.”

 

1. al-Malāḥim wal-Fitan, tradition 362, pp. 246.

 

I'm not sure what to think of these hadiths but it gives me pause and much reflection of my previous views I know I'll probably get more flack for this post but I don't want to blindly support  or believe  in anything without full, proper understanding as a revert. If it's too long or controversial, feel free to edit it.

Salam nobody denies that true government belongs to Imam Mahdi(aj) that even both  of Imam Khomeini(رضي الله عنه) & Imam Khamenei confirmed it but in other hand Imam Mahdi (aj) ordered us that during occultation we must follow his deputies until his reappearance & as @Abu Nur said Imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) supported any uprising such as Zaid (رضي الله عنه) for giving back the right to our Imams (عليه السلام) that current Iran policy is same as intention of Zaid(رضي الله عنه) but any uprising or establishing government for just personal or political gain without intention of giving back right to Imam Mahdi(aj) is not confirmed as you provided it's hadiths.

On 2/2/2020 at 10:54 PM, Abu Nur said:

People of Iran are different than government of Iran. I love and respect my Iranian believer brothers and sisters and same goes with other Shi'as. About fallible Governments we may disagree partially or totally.

people of Iran are not separable from their government the idea of separation of Iranian people from their government is a secularist idea & slogan that is spreading everywhere by anti Iranian opposition that backs to American & Israeli think tanks.

[eThErEaL]

4 hours ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Iran does no such thing. Iran sets forth the path to Imam Mahdi's (عليه السلام) revolution and government.

Right.  This is precisely what I meant.  

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by eThErEaL

[eThErEaL]

5 hours ago, 000 said:

t mean any kind of institution you can think of... not just government.

I think wilayatul-faqih in general can be an example of a sacred institution because it is part of the Shiite tradition (which is sacred).  The question then becomes who are these fuqaha?  Can there be just ONE faqih?  I think it it depends on the level of one's spiritual degree.  In theory it is possible for there to be a one absolute faqih (also known as wilayatul faqih al-mutlaq).  Absolute wilayat is certainly NOT in the Shiite tradition (at least not explicitly).  Traditionally such an authority was the sole prerogative of the Imam of the time.  

Was Khomeini (r-a) such a wali-al-mutlaqi?  Hmm

No comment.

By the way, this entire subject is very tricky( because it involves an understanding of (jurisprudence, philosophy, and Irfan) .  to be honest with you, I am don't know what to think about this sometimes.  I will just say that theoretically, wilayatul faqih is possible and is no doubt part of the Shiite tradition.  What better way to govern based on a council of wise men who understand the traditions and who are able to implement traditions in the context we are faced with?  This is wonderful if such a group of people were in authority!  So in theory it is a wonderful and beautiful system!  And even this wont be perfect because the world is simply not perfect!  

Is this the way Iran currently is?

Perhaps they are trying.... ?

 And so it is commendable.  But like I said, it can be critiqued and it can be praised.  I am not in apossition to judge those who are presently in authority, I can only criticize their actions if they are blameworthy and praise their actions if they are praiseworthy.  But about their spiritual degree and sincerity, this is outside the scope of my capacity.  And frankly it is none of my business.  

As an American Muslim (and that also, a Sunni) accepting the authority of wilayatul faqih in Iran is none of my concern.  I would say it shouldn't be anyone's concern if they live in the West.  Just follow their fiqh as it concerns you and thats it!  after all, I don't think Khameinei wants anything else form Shiites in the West!  (which is good!).    

 

And God knows best!

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by eThErEaL

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Was Khomeini (r-a) such a wali-al-mutlaqi?  Hmm

No comment.

yes, he was & now Imam Khamenei

 

18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

As an American Muslim (and that also, a Sunni) accepting the authority of wilayatul faqih in Iran is none of my concern.  I would say it shouldn't be anyone's concern if they live in the West.  Just follow their fiqh as it concerns you and thats it!  after all, I don't think Khameinei wants anything else form Shiites in the West!  (which is good!).  

because you are a wahabi/Salafi not a Sunni also you can read his letter to youth to understand his tought about Shiite and real Sunnis in west 

https://www.leader.ir/en/content/13964/Ayatollah-Khamenei-issues-a-second-letter-to-the-youth-in-Western-countries

(Excellent animation) A Letter For Truth - English

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCwjv-Zkapc&list=PLSaaFm9_7F_JCsxrUZpJX_2cDFLqWQ4xO

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Was Khomeini (r-a) such a wali-al-mutlaqi?  Hmm

No comment.

yes, he was & now Imam Khamenei

 

18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

As an American Muslim (and that also, a Sunni) accepting the authority of wilayatul faqih in Iran is none of my concern.  I would say it shouldn't be anyone's concern if they live in the West.  Just follow their fiqh as it concerns you and thats it!  after all, I don't think Khameinei wants anything else form Shiites in the West!  (which is good!).  

because you are a wahabi/Salafi not a Sunni also you can read his letter to youth to understand his tought about Shiite and real Sunnis in west 

https://www.leader.ir/en/content/13964/Ayatollah-Khamenei-issues-a-second-letter-to-the-youth-in-Western-countries

(Excellent animation) A Letter For Truth - English

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCwjv-Zkapc&list=PLSaaFm9_7F_JCsxrUZpJX_2cDFLqWQ4xO

[TryHard]

On 2/8/2020 at 12:06 AM, Abu Nur said:

Because there is no clear statement, you will have always some doubts and two sided camps. From wikishia:

{Zayd's revolt occurred during the imamate of Imam al-Sadiq (a), but the Imam (a) did not participate in the revolt, and there are no clear statements by Imam al-Sadiq (a) regarding the revolt. Some maintain that the fact that the Imam (a) did not participate in the revolt indicates his disagreement with it, however some others believe that while the Imam (a) was supportive of the revolt, he did not regard it beneficial to participate directly in the revolt. Some scholars such as al-Shahid al-Awwal, Ayatollah Khoei, and Mamaqani believe that Zayd b. Ali was permitted by Imam al-Sadiq (a) to revolt. In this regard, a hadith is adduced, which reports that Zayd consulted with Imam al-Sadiq (a) and the Imam (a) told him, "If you wish to be the one who will be hung in the midden of Kufa, this is the way." Adducing the same hadith, some other scholars hold that, although Zayd truly intended to hand over the caliphate to Imam al-Sadiq (a), the Imam (a) prohibited him from the revolt. Based on a hadith, Allama Tihrani too holds that Zayd's revolt was conducted without the Imam's (a) permission.

According to some hadiths from Imam al-Sadiq (a) and Imam al-Rida (a), Zayd intended to transfer the caliphate to Imam al-Sadiq (a). Al-Shaykh al-Mufid states that Zayd led his revolt to bring to power "the pleased one from the family of the Prophet (s)", and did not seek the caliphate for himself. Al-Allama al-Majlisi attributes this opinion to the majority of Twelver Shiite scholars and adds that he has not seen a different opinion from them.

According to al-Shaykh al-Mufid, when Imam al-Sadiq (a) was informed of the murder of Zayd, he was deeply affected and ordered that an amount of money be distributed among the families of those who had been killed in the revolt.}

- It is possible that the Imam (عليه السلام) supported it. It is also possible that he did not. It is also possible that he supported it and at same time deny because of Taqiyah.

Imam (عليه السلام) saying he will be hanged is prophecizing his martyrdom. Anyways based on the above info the majority of scholars save a few of them believed in Zayd's revolt. Most of the evidence there shows it. Anyways this is not a matter of fiqh a person can clearly see the majority of scholars support this idea especially the power houses like Al MUfeed (رضي الله عنه) and shaheed al awal(رضي الله عنه). Also just based onthe above there is more evidence for the Imam's (عليه السلام) supporting zayds uprising than for not supporting in fact aside from the few scholars  who disagree the hadiths and everything else above seems to indicate the Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) supported zayd (رضي الله عنه).

Anyways. Lets say I and all those scholars are wrong. There is still Mukhtar al Thakafi(رضي الله عنه) uprising, and this hadith here destroys the argument against having an uprising

“O my uncle, if a black slave rises for us, Ahlul Bayt, it is obligatory upon the people to assist him. I appointed you for this affair. Do what you want.” 

They went out after hearing the Imam’s speech saying: Zayn al-‘Abidin and Muhammad ibn Hanafiyah permitted us.”

Ibn Nama Hilli, Ja'far, Dhub al-Nadar fi Sharh al-Thar, p. 96; Bahar al-Anwar, vol.45, p. 365; Khuii, Sayyed Abu al-Qasim, Mu'jam al-Rijal al-Hadith, vol.18, p. 101.

https://www.al-Islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-12-no4-winter-2012/history-Shia-time-Imam-sajjad-part-2-Sayyid-ahmad-reza-0

 

Also before the Imam (عليه السلام) arrives we have hadiths that talk about the uprising of the Khurasani and Yemani are these not uprisings that the Imam approves of brother @Abu Nur?Certain sources also talk about the Khurasani being a scholar who rules Iran. Now that is not to say such and such scholar is the Khurasani but it goes to show that not only do the Imams(عليه السلام) approve of uprisings before the Mahdi (عليه السلام) but also scholars leading a country based on the Khurasani and possibly the Yemani.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by TryHard

[TryHard]

On 2/8/2020 at 5:23 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

people of Iran are not separable from their government the idea of separation of Iranian people from their government is a secularist idea & slogan that is spreading everywhere by anti Iranian opposition that backs to American & Israeli think tanks.

see why brother I say he is spreading propaganda and serving America. I don't know if he is n agent or anything but reading his posts reminds me of reading something from the BBC or other anti Iran/Resistance news news like this.

[Mohammadi_follower]

On 2/2/2020 at 6:16 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

It might be the best attempt there currently is, but it is not a 'true Islamic government', and there is no way it ever could be. It is a nation-state, something that didn't exist before the Treaty of Westphalia. This nation-state concept has many far-reaching consequences, and as a result, Iran violates many Islamic rules.

This is true this I why I often said I would be among the first one to welcome foreign Shia to do their hijra to Iran contrary to what we have now in Iran. However like I also said there is the problems we have now in Iran which don’t permit to welcome many foreigners to go now in Iran (there is also the problem of potential spies tryhard talked about).

[Mohammadi_follower]

On 2/6/2020 at 12:07 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@Sirius_Bright @Moalfas @Abu Nur @starlight @Ashvazdanghe

So it's with great trepidation that I write this, because I'm not sure I'm giving this subject  the tact and sensitivity that it deserves. Plus, I have no desire to insult any scholars.

To Ashvazdanghe- My views aren't born of the idea that secularism is somehow better than Islam. Rather they are informed by hadiths like this: 

 

“... said the Imam: “Oh Mufaddal, every bay’ah before the reappearance of the Riser is a bay’ah of disbelief, hypocrisy and trickery. God’s curse be upon he who pledges it, and he who takes it.”

 

1. Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 53, pp. 8.

 

In Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 69, pp. 132.

 

al-Imam al-Ṣādiq told Ḥamrān bin Aʾyan: “Whoever opposed you in this matter is a zindeeq,” Ḥamrān said: Even if he was a ʿalawi and a fāṭimi (Sayyid)? He said: “Even if he was a muḥammadi, ʿalawi and a fāṭimi.”

 

In a long tradition in Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 30, pp. 18, the Prophet says,

 

“…Whoever makes an uprising and he is not one of my household, [then] they are the dajjāliya…”

 

فأيَّما راية خرجت ليست من أهل بيتي فهي الدجالية

 

“Had our Riser risen, he would’ve began with those who claim [arrogate] our love, so he would hit their necks.”

 

«لو قد قام قائمنا بدأ بالذين ينتحلون حبنا فيضرب رقابهم»

 

[al-Iḍhāḥ, pp. 208-209].

 

As a Muslim, reading these hadiths has made me apprehensive and cautious of supporting wilayat al-faqih in general. Especially since the current understanding of it is only fourty years old. Personally, when it comes to the people of Nuh (عليه السلام), I find more similarity with some members who quick to judge anyone as non Shias for disagreeing with the current WF theory and yet, they always preach about unity. 

 

Unity is good, but one cannot be so quick to label his own brothers with takfir and plead with our Sunni selves for unity at the same time. That's what is truly disingenuous and damaging for the Ummah. There's no other word for it except unacceptable. 

 

The verse 4:59 doesn't imply the authority of the fuqaha, but rather the authority of the Imamah and the Prophet's deputy as per my previous post. Again, "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O' people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification." [33:33]

 

This purification is needed for a true Islamic government.

 

 To everyone else- If I wanted to justify WF, I wouldn't know what to do about the hadiths like this: “When al-Imam al-Mahdi emerges, he won’t have any clear enemy other than the religious authorities [jurists], he and his sword are brothers, and if it wasn’t by the sword in his hand, they would have have delivered verdicts to kill him, but God will support him by the sword and by generosity. They [the jurists] will obey him and will be fearful [of him]. Thus, they would be accepting his rule without faith, but they will have enmity against him.”

 

1. Bayān al-Aʾimmah, vol. 3, page 99. 

 

Or: Imam Ali said: “...and everyone who rises from my sons before al-Mahdi, then he is a jazūr (slaughtered camel), beware of the dajjāls from the children of Fatima, for indeed there are dajjāls from the children of Fatima, and a dajjāl shall emerge from the dajjāls of Basra, he’s not from me, and he’s at the front of all dajjāls.”

 

1. al-Malāḥim wal-Fitan, tradition 362, pp. 246.

 

I'm not sure what to think of these hadiths but it gives me pause and much reflection of my previous views I know I'll probably get more flack for this post but I don't want to blindly support  or believe  in anything without full, proper understanding as a revert. If it's too long or controversial, feel free to edit it.

I want to ask two questions when I read such narrations.

If we are not supposed to rise before the coming of last Imam (عليه السلام) are we supposed to do nothing if a brutal dictator rule us ? So that mean we let a kaffir making anti-Islamic laws against us or we let isis rule us ?

You talked about bayah made to other than to the infaillible Imams (عليه السلام) but the suprem leaders of Iran don’t also say themselves they are inferior to them and also pledge to them ? What about hadith saying scholars are successors of infaillible Imams when they are not physically here ?

I don’t want to say you are wrong when I ask that. I just want to understand better.

[eThErEaL]

On 2/9/2020 at 3:13 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

yes, he was & now Imam Khamenei

 

because you are a wahabi/Salafi not a Sunni also you can read his letter to youth to understand his tought about Shiite and real Sunnis in west 

https://www.leader.ir/en/content/13964/Ayatollah-Khamenei-issues-a-second-letter-to-the-youth-in-Western-countries

(Excellent animation) A Letter For Truth - English

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCwjv-Zkapc&list=PLSaaFm9_7F_JCsxrUZpJX_2cDFLqWQ4xO

I regard you an extremist in your ways of thinking.  I dissociate from you.  I am proud to be an American Muslim.  I am happy where I am and have benefitted a lot from my country.  So God bless America!

lol

[Gaius I. Caesar]

6 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

If we are not supposed to rise before the coming of last Imam (عليه السلام) are we supposed to do nothing if a brutal dictator rule us ? So that mean we let a kaffir making anti-Islamic laws against us or we let isis rule us ?

وَاللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الْأَرْضَ بِسَاطًا - 71:19

لِّتَسْلُكُوا مِنْهَا سُبُلًا فِجَاجًا - 71:20

"And Allah has made for you the Earth an expanse, that you may follow therein roads of passage."

وَمَن يُهَاجِرْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ يَجِدْ فِي الْأَرْضِ مُرَاغَمًا كَثِيرًا وَسَعَةً ۚ وَمَن يَخْرُجْ مِن بَيْتِهِ مُهَاجِرًا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ ثُمَّ يُدْرِكْهُ الْمَوْتُ فَقَدْ وَقَعَ أَجْرُهُ عَلَى اللَّهِ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا - 4:100

"And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the Earth many [alternative] locations and abundance. And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him - his reward has already become incumbent upon Allah . And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful."

وَالَّذِينَ هَاجَرُوا فِي اللَّهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا ظُلِمُوا لَنُبَوِّئَنَّهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً ۖ وَلَأَجْرُ الْآخِرَةِ أَكْبَرُ ۚ لَوْ كَانُوا يَعْلَمُونَ - 16:41

"And those who emigrated for [the cause of] Allah after they had been wronged - We will surely settle them in this world in a good place; but the reward of the Hereafter is greater, if only they could know."

يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّ أَرْضِي وَاسِعَةٌ فَإِيَّايَ فَاعْبُدُونِ - 29:56

"O My servants who have believed, indeed My Earth is spacious, so worship only Me."

The best we can do in this regard, is emigrate to places where there are no tyrants and we are allowed to worship freely and pray for the return of al-Mahdi (afts). There is no shame in emigrating, it is a sunnah and a form of worship.

7 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

What about hadith saying scholars are successors of infaillible Imams when they are not physically here ?

^As I understand it, that is in regards to fiqhi matters and spiritual guidance, not necessarily politics.

[root]

Two types of Shias

1. sit at home, say zikr, discuss fiqh and history all day and night.....this is the sort of Islam that noone has a problem with, not even Muawiyah had a problem with this type of Islam, stay in sajda until your head turns blue, or walk around kabah until your head spins. As long as you don't get involved in people robbing you empty. 

2. fights for the rights of Muslims, in a resistant and revolutionary way, and for this to happen, you need a government and a good and steadfast leader. And to attain this you will have to give blood, and sacrifice, and you will meet with hardships and traitors and still you have to endure. 

Simplified version ofc........but in the end, this is how it is, whether it hurts admitting it or not. 

[Mohammadi_follower]

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

وَاللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الْأَرْضَ بِسَاطًا - 71:19

لِّتَسْلُكُوا مِنْهَا سُبُلًا فِجَاجًا - 71:20

"And Allah has made for you the Earth an expanse, that you may follow therein roads of passage."

وَمَن يُهَاجِرْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ يَجِدْ فِي الْأَرْضِ مُرَاغَمًا كَثِيرًا وَسَعَةً ۚ وَمَن يَخْرُجْ مِن بَيْتِهِ مُهَاجِرًا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ ثُمَّ يُدْرِكْهُ الْمَوْتُ فَقَدْ وَقَعَ أَجْرُهُ عَلَى اللَّهِ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا - 4:100

"And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the Earth many [alternative] locations and abundance. And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him - his reward has already become incumbent upon Allah . And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful."

وَالَّذِينَ هَاجَرُوا فِي اللَّهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا ظُلِمُوا لَنُبَوِّئَنَّهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً ۖ وَلَأَجْرُ الْآخِرَةِ أَكْبَرُ ۚ لَوْ كَانُوا يَعْلَمُونَ - 16:41

"And those who emigrated for [the cause of] Allah after they had been wronged - We will surely settle them in this world in a good place; but the reward of the Hereafter is greater, if only they could know."

يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّ أَرْضِي وَاسِعَةٌ فَإِيَّايَ فَاعْبُدُونِ - 29:56

"O My servants who have believed, indeed My Earth is spacious, so worship only Me."

The best we can do in this regard, is emigrate to places where there are no tyrants and we are allowed to worship freely and pray for the return of al-Mahdi (afts). There is no shame in emigrating, it is a sunnah and a form of worship.

 

You will probably find me very harsh but I find your statement quite absurd for not say irresponsible. So basically if tyrants and ennemy of our faith take power in the few Shia countries (Iran/Iraq) we must just emigrate to some kafir countries and let our holy places in the hand of such tyrants ? 

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 

^As I understand it, that is in regards to fiqhi matters and spiritual guidance, not necessarily politics.

I am actually not a theologian so I don’t want at all to say you are false here. But on the narrations I remember it said "successor" not "successor only in fiqhi questions".

[Mohammadi_follower]

2 hours ago, root said:

Two types of Shias

1. sit at home, say zikr, discuss fiqh and history all day and night.....this is the sort of Islam that noone has a problem with, not even Muawiyah had a problem with this type of Islam, stay in sajda until your head turns blue, or walk around kabah until your head spins. As long as you don't get involved in people robbing you empty. 

2. fights for the rights of Muslims, in a resistant and revolutionary way, and for this to happen, you need a government and a good and steadfast leader. And to attain this you will have to give blood, and sacrifice, and you will meet with hardships and traitors and still you have to endure. 

Simplified version ofc........but in the end, this is how it is, whether it hurts admitting it or not. 

Well I think you explained very well the situation. It is also true that ennemies of Islam and nawassibs generally don’t have problem with the first category you mentionned.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

@Mohammadi_follower

You don't have to agree with me but there's also this: 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنفُسِهِمْ قَالُوا فِيمَ كُنتُمْ ۖ قَالُوا كُنَّا مُسْتَضْعَفِينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ قَالُوا أَلَمْ تَكُنْ أَرْضُ اللَّهِ وَاسِعَةً فَتُهَاجِرُوا فِيهَا ۚ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا - 4:97

إِلَّا الْمُسْتَضْعَفِينَ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ وَالنِّسَاءِ وَالْوِلْدَانِ لَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ حِيلَةً وَلَا يَهْتَدُونَ سَبِيلًا - 4:98

فَأُولَٰئِكَ عَسَى اللَّهُ أَن يَعْفُوَ عَنْهُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا - 4:99

“Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, “In what [condition] were you?” They will say, “We were oppressed in the land.” The angels will say, “Was not the Earth of God spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?” For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination. [97] Except for the oppressed among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan nor are they directed to a way - [98] For those it is expected that God will pardon them, and God is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. [99] 

 

36 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

You will probably find me very harsh but I find your statement quite absurd for not say irresponsible. So basically if tyrants and ennemy of our faith take power in the few Shia countries (Iran/Iraq) we must just emigrate to some kafir countries and let our holy places in the hand of such tyrants ? 

I am actually not a theologian so I don’t want at all to say you are false here. But on the narrations I remember it said "successor" not "successor only in fiqhi questions".

Only the Mahdi (afts) is qualified to rule the Shi'a, although he is currently in the ghayba, he's very much alive, so nobody succeeded him politically speaking. 

Therefore, I want to pose a question to you.

(1. What do you personally think of the fitnah between the Shirazis and those support WF? In a time where certain people want to Shias keep divided, do you think it's wise for scholars to be in  polarizing positions that incite hatred in people and cause further fitnah? 

(2. What do think of people exaggerating status of Khamenei  and Khomeini?

[Ashvazdanghe]

6 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

(1. What do you personally think of the fitnah between the Shirazis and those support WF? In a time where certain people want to Shias keep divided, do you think it's wise for scholars to be in  polarizing positions that incite hatred in people and cause further fitnah? 

(2. What do think of people exaggerating status of Khamenei  and Khomeini?

Salam ,

1. it's necessary to separate real followers of Imam Mahdi (aj) and his faithful Shias from people that just have lable of Shia like era of Prophet Noah (عليه السلام) & rest of Prophets specially Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) that he had many followers when he passed Nile but except  few ones of Bani Israel many of them failed in every test from golden calf test to test of entering to promised land that only a few handpicked of Bani Israel remaind loyal to Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) & his brother Harun (عليه السلام) that same trials happened & still is happening until people specially Shia Muslims  can purify themselves & prove their loyality to Imam Mahdi (aj) that based on Shia hadiths near to reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) only Qom (Hawza of Qom) is the only true lighthouse in this way even Hawza of Najaf with all of it's glorious history doesn't has any rule in this matter.
2. everyone ,specially me are against such people because both of them are fallible humans but in other hand until now both of them didn't make any mistake in leadership of Shia Muslims.

   11 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

   The best we can do in this regard, is emigrate to places where there are no tyrants and we are allowed to worship freely and pray for the return of al-Mahdi (afts). There is no shame in emigrating, it is a sunnah and a form of worship.

   for this emigration you must emigrate to a place that you freely practice your religion by support of that country like Prophet Muhammad (pbu) migrated to Medina after he became sure that all people & tribes of Medina will support him with every means that as a Shia only you can this support only in two Shia countries of Iraq & Iran or maybe Lebanon but except Iran both Iraq & Lebanon will suffer from advent of Sufyani (la) & other major disasters until time of reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) that Iran only will face minor disasters that are necessary to prepare people of Iran for reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) like battle of Khandaq Trench) that for a period put Muslims in Medina  in hardship but at the prepared them for conquering of Mecca.

[Mohammadi_follower]

9 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@Mohammadi_follower

You don't have to agree with me but there's also this: 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنفُسِهِمْ قَالُوا فِيمَ كُنتُمْ ۖ قَالُوا كُنَّا مُسْتَضْعَفِينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ قَالُوا أَلَمْ تَكُنْ أَرْضُ اللَّهِ وَاسِعَةً فَتُهَاجِرُوا فِيهَا ۚ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا - 4:97

إِلَّا الْمُسْتَضْعَفِينَ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ وَالنِّسَاءِ وَالْوِلْدَانِ لَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ حِيلَةً وَلَا يَهْتَدُونَ سَبِيلًا - 4:98

فَأُولَٰئِكَ عَسَى اللَّهُ أَن يَعْفُوَ عَنْهُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا - 4:99

“Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, “In what [condition] were you?” They will say, “We were oppressed in the land.” The angels will say, “Was not the Earth of God spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?” For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination. [97] Except for the oppressed among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan nor are they directed to a way - [98] For those it is expected that God will pardon them, and God is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. [99] 

 

Only the Mahdi (afts) is qualified to rule the Shi'a, although he is currently in the ghayba, he's very much alive, so nobody succeeded him politically speaking. 

Therefore, I want to pose a question to you.

(1. What do you personally think of the fitnah between the Shirazis and those support WF? In a time where certain people want to Shias keep divided, do you think it's wise for scholars to be in  polarizing positions that incite hatred in people and cause further fitnah? 

(2. What do think of people exaggerating status of Khamenei  and Khomeini?

The shirazis are also for wf. As for your second question I would just say that you will always find extremist everywhere. 

For the verses you quoted that was revealed for people living with kuffars who make difficult for Muslims to practice their religion to go to Muslim territories . Here you are saying that if tyrants take power in Shia lands we must fled to kaffir countries. 

[Gaius I. Caesar]

8 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Here you are saying that if tyrants take power in Shia lands we must fled to kaffir countries. 

^Except I never did or intended to say that. You inferred it from my previous posts and assumed that's what I'm saying.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

8 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

The shirazis are also for wf. As for your second question I would just say that you will always find extremist everywhere. 

Yes, but as I understand it, it's a different model than the current WF. As for extremism, aren't we supposed enjoin good and forbid evil as Shia? Extremism is a form of evil. Is it not alarming that people elevate Khamenei to an inappropriate status and say he is above criticism and comparable to the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in spiritual status?

This is beginning to sound like shirk. Scholars are meant to guide or advise on political matters, not participate in it.

 

[Mohammadi_follower]

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

^Except I never did or intended to say that. You inferred it from my previous posts and assumed that's what I'm saying.

I said what we must do if tyrant take control of our countries and you quoted verses saying we must emigrate. 

[Mohammadi_follower]

1 minute ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Yes, but as I understand it, it's a different model than the current WF. As for extremism, aren't we supposed enjoin good and forbid evil as Shia? Extremism is a form of evil. Is it not alarming that people elevate Khamenei to an inappropriate status and say he is above criticism and comparable to the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in spiritual status?

This is beginning to sound like shirk. Scholars are meant to guide or advise on political matters, not participate in it.

 

Actually not so much. They say we must have many faqih and not just one and they say also that the faqi must have less power than what we have in Iran but that it. 

As for the other point this is not because some idiot exist that we must blame everything they love. By this logic everything is bad. 

[azizaliallah]

(00) Messianic Occult Movement waiting for the end of days to establish government... (: yes let's do it, I'm feeling irrationally fanatical tonight.

Do you think the Mehdi will legalize cocaine?

[Celtic Twilight]

Politics is a necessity in this fallen world. 

What are the real world actual alternatives to the current system in Iran that would serve the Iranian people better? I cannot think of any. From my reading the current set up happened almost by accident, there really does seem to have been something genuinely Providential in the real sense of that term about Khomeini. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

According to Ahl al-Bayt News Agency (عليه السلام), Abna; the will of the commander of the Revolutionary Guards Corps, Qasim Soleimani, was released.

Sardar Soleimani's will section will about  country's politics is as follows:

Addressing the country's politics ...

I have a brief point on the politics of the country: either those who call themselves reformists or those who  call themselves principled. What I was constantly suffering from is that we generally forget about God and the Qur'an and values at , but we sacrifice. Beloved ones, you compete with each other, and you fight with each other, but if your actions and your words or your debates were in any way debilitating religion or revolution, know that you cause anger of  the Prophet of Islam and the martyrs of this path; separate the borders. If you want to be together, the condition of being together, is expressing agreement and principles. The principles are not straightforward and detailed. The principles are several important principles:

1.The first is the practical belief in the WF; that is, to hear his advice, act with your heart and mind on his point  and advice as the true adviser of religious and scientific doctrine. Anyone who wishes to assume responsibility in the Islamic Republic must have a genuine belief in and practice of the WF. I say neither oven WF nor I say legal guardianship; neither of these solves the problem of unity; legal guardianship is specific to the general public, both Muslim and non-Muslim, but the prarctical  WF is specifically for officials who want to bear the country's important burden. And the Islamic country with so many martyrs.

2.The true belief in the Islamic Republic and what it has been based on - from ethics and values to responsibilities - whether to the nation or to Islam.

3. Employing the faithful and serving the nation, not those who, even if they reach the table of a village, evoke the memory of former kings.

4. Combat corruption and avoid corruption and luxury in their own way.

5. In the period of his rule and in any responsibility, respect and serve the people and respect the people and be a true servant, a developer of values, not boycotting values with illusory justifications.

Officials are like fathers of society, should take care of their responsibility to educate and protect the community, not by negligence support the morals and by empowering some of the fleeting emotional voices that promotes divorce and corruption in the community and breaking up families. Governments are a major factor in family solidarity and, on the other hand, an important factor in breaking up the family. If the principles are followed, then everyone is on the path of the leader, the revolution, and the Islamic Republic, and a fair competition will be based on the same principles for the election of the best.

https://fa.abna24.com/news/اخبار-ایران/وصیت‌نامه-شهید-سردار-سلیمانی-منتشر-شد_765541.html

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fa&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Ffa.abna24.com%2Fnews%2Fاخبار-ایران%2Fوصیت%e2%80%8cنامه-شهید-سردار-سلیمانی-منتشر-شد_765541.html

[ali_fatheroforphans]

May Allah bless those who are paving the path for Imam Mahdi's(عليه السلام) return. 

[ali_fatheroforphans]

On 2/14/2020 at 3:10 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Is it not alarming that people elevate Khamenei to an inappropriate status and say he is above criticism and comparable to the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in spiritual status?

Where are you getting this from? Shiachat is not even a representative of the entire Shia community. Have you done some sort of survey where every WF supporter shares his/her opinion regarding Imam Khamanei?

Alhumdulillah at this point in time, Shias need to unite and show their love towards a leader who is selflessly devoting his time and energy to serve Islam to the best of his ability. 

We can waste our time dwelling into insignificant matters which don't even matter in the Shia world or those matters which further cause disunity, such as those who think Imam Khamanei is infallible. The real issue are those put all these baseless accusations on Imam Khamanei.

Edited February 16, 2020 by ali_fatheroforphans