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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Islamic Government

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22 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

I say Ali's rule was Islamic but his subjects were unislamic.

I agree with you on this fully 

24 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

First ask your self this question. Can man be a Muslim? if the answer is no, then your logic makes sense.

If your answer is yes, then your logical doesn't make sense.

However, I'm a little confused by your question. What do you mean by it? Because as I understand it, people are not compelled or forced to follow Islam because the truth is free from misconceptions and falsehood, if a person comes to the truth that is Islam, it's because he or she called upon al Haqq (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and was repentant of their ignorance, therefore He guided that person to Islam (2:256 and 13:27)

As Imam Ali (عليه السلام) once said: "There is enough light for one who wants to see."

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On 1/28/2020 at 3:56 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I agree with you on this fully 

However, I'm a little confused by your question. What do you mean by it? Because as I understand it, people are not compelled or forced to follow Islam because the truth is free from misconceptions and falsehood, if a person comes to the truth that is Islam, it's because he or she called upon al Haqq (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and was repentant of their ignorance, therefore He guided that person to Islam (2:256 and 13:27)

As Imam Ali (عليه السلام) once said: "There is enough light for one who wants to see."

Right, it would have to be a government chosen beforehand by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) e.g. The khalifa of Imam Ali, which was wrongfully usurped by Abu Bakr at Saqifah. 

The policies themselves would be the divine laws of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), timeless, universal and unchangeable.

So going by this, it's quite apparent to me that the return of Imam Mahdi (afts) will bring the first Islamic government since Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

However, that's not to say we can't have Islam inspired government or with Islamic principles but it's not really an Islamic government if not chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), is it? 

Allah Knows best.

First ask your self this question. Can man be a Muslim? if the answer is no, then your logic makes sense.

If your answer is yes, then your logical doesn't make sense.

If I follow your reasoning, I would conclude that I can only truly be a Muslim until the Mehdi shows up, or that only time Muslims truly existed was during Ali rule.

I say Ali's rule was Islamic but his subjects were unislamic.

Edited by Hameedeh
Fixed strikethrough fonts.

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It is incorrect to compare this to the current time where our Imam is not yet appeared so he can make the divine guided Government. In what bases we should even involve to politics when fallible peoples are leading the matters and executions without one who is infallible who could guide them when they are doing wrong and then we are responsible for choosing  and supporting them? I have not seen any government that apply religion that is justice, there is always faults and mistakes.

This is particular point I always have difficulty to understand.

You say "what bases we should even involve to politics"

So what the deal ?

We let a kafir politician making rules against Islam without saying anything just because we are not infaillible Imams ? For me such statement is just irresponsible and even dangerous.

Edited by Mohammadi_follower

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1 hour ago, azizaliallah said:

If I follow your reasoning, I would conclude that I can only truly be a Muslim until the Mehdi shows up, or that only time Muslims truly existed was during Ali rule.

100% This

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1 hour ago, azizaliallah said:

Allah doesn't need to choose . We recognize Allah, through his creations. 

Caliphs are chosen by Allah. Only a divine caliph can be infallible. 

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27 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

This is particular point I always have difficulty to understand.

You say "what bases we should even involve to politics"

So what the deal ?

We let a kafir politician making rules against Islam without saying anything just because we are not infaillible Imams ? For me such statement is just irresponsible and even dangerous.

It is actually very simple. If we suddenly have a kafir ruler who make rules against Islam, we voice against it of course. The same way how it have always been. If we don't have power to do that, we remain silent or trying to find another way to effect it. If we have an Islamic Government, we do the same process if possible, without voting for politicians or supporting their Goverment. What I prefer, of course I prefer Islamic Government even if its not Divine Guided.

Take an example of Iraq. Non Islamic Government, and people are voicing against them and want to have change, this voicing against is reasonable. Stupid Government are making sure to void their voice and you have Shia's joining and supporting this stupid government. These people will be responsible in day of Judgement if they did or support any injustice.

Edited by Abu Nur

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On 1/28/2020 at 4:53 AM, Abu Nur said:

It is actually very simple. If we suddenly have a kafir ruler who make rules against Islam, we voice against it of course. The same way how it have always been. If we don't have power to do that, we remain silent or trying to find another way to effect it. If we have an Islamic Government, we do the same process if possible, without voting for politicians or supporting their Goverment. What I prefer, of course I prefer Islamic Government even if its not Divine Guided.

If you "voice" against it you are basically doing politics. Or you just do some noises which is useless. 

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On 1/28/2020 at 5:00 AM, Mohammadi_follower said:

If you "voice" against it you are basically doing politics. Or you just do some noises which is useless. 

For example in Finland we have this kansalaisaloite.fi, which the definition is 

A new form of participation on the state level, citizens' initiative, was taken into use in Finland on 1 March 2012. It offers citizens a possibility to have their initiative considered by the Parliament. The objective of the new system is to promote free civic activity.

According to the provision in the Constitution, at least fifty thousand Finnish citizens entitled to vote have the right to submit an initiative for the enactment of an Act to the Parliament. The Act on citizens' initiative includes provisions on the procedure to be followed when organising a citizens' initiative.

---

You can sign your name but it does not mean that we are voting and supporting politicians or supporting any of Government Groups.

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11 minutes ago, starlight said:

Caliphs are chosen by Allah. Only a divine caliph can be infallible. 

Humans Choose. Allah Doesn't Choose. Allah is the Creator all, Allah causes all things to speak, its Humans who pretend they can't hear or say they heard something else.

Allah is beyond Choice. Hamdullah . We have options, we have think about what to wear , when to eat, who to marry , who to give our bayah to . Subhanullah

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15 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

Humans Choose. Allah Doesn't Choose. Allah is the Creator all, Allah causes all things to speak, its Humans who pretend they can't hear or say they heard something else.

Allah is beyond Choice. Hamdullah . We have options, we have think about what to wear , when to eat, who to marry , who to give our bayah to . Subhanullah

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does choose:

 “Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men. Verily Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” Surah Al-Hajj – Verses 75 

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On 1/28/2020 at 5:06 AM, Abu Nur said:

For example in Finland we have this kansalaisaloite.fi, which the definition is 

A new form of participation on the state level, citizens' initiative, was taken into use in Finland on 1 March 2012. It offers citizens a possibility to have their initiative considered by the Parliament. The objective of the new system is to promote free civic activity.

According to the provision in the Constitution, at least fifty thousand Finnish citizens entitled to vote have the right to submit an initiative for the enactment of an Act to the Parliament. The Act on citizens' initiative includes provisions on the procedure to be followed when organising a citizens' initiative.

---

You can sign your name but it does not mean that we are voting and supporting politicians or supporting any of Government Groups.

I don't know at all Finland so I will ask a simple question for understanding better your point of view. What do you think about the Safavid conquest of Iran? Is it a good thing or that would be better if they just said silent in their little group? I just want to know this. 

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Quote

What do you think about the Safavid conquest of Iran? Is it a good thing or that would be better if they just said silent in their little group? 

I don't support Safavid conquest, nor I do support Ismael I actions. He is not God chosen nor his Dynasty. I don't need to even give an answer about goodness or evilness which such a leaders and wars.

Edited by Abu Nur

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16 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

Humans Choose. Allah Doesn't Choose. Allah is the Creator all, Allah causes all things to speak, its Humans who pretend they can't hear or say they heard something else.

What are you talking about ? Prophets and Imams (عليه السلام) are divinely appointed.

Allah is As-Samad indeed but He is also All Powerful and controls everything that happens in the universe. 

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

I don't support Safavid conquest, nor I do support Ismael I actions. He is not God chosen nor his Dynasty. I don't need to even give an answer about goodness or evilness which such a leaders and wars.

This is actually a big problem I have with Shias like you. If most Shias thought like you Shia Muslims would be totally unknown in this world and would be just a little minority everywhere (maybe only 0.1% of Muslim world). If there were not people like Safavids and ayatollah Khomeini who were involved in politics Shias would be just a little weak and unknown minority. So to be honnest I am glad that these people existed and had different opinion than you. I am also happy that the people who now govern the biggest Shia country follow the thought of Khomeini and not your thought. 

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16 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

This is actually a big problem I have with Shias like you. If most Shias thought like you Shia Muslims would be totally unknown in this world and would be just a little minority everywhere (maybe only 0.1% of Muslim world). If there were not people like Safavids and ayatollah Khomeini who were involved in politics Shias would be just a little weak and unknown minority. So to be honnest I am glad that these people existed and had different opinion than you. I am also happy that the people who now govern the biggest Shia country follow the thought of Khomeini and not your thought. 

You can be happy and glad about your belief, and I'm also happy and glad about mine and I only believe in Kings, Imams (عليه السلام) that are choosed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to form an Government that is worthy to support and follow, I'm not alone in such a belief and there have been many Shia scholars who believe also on this.

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50 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You can be happy and glad about your belief, and I'm also happy and glad about mine and I only believe in Kings, Imams (عليه السلام) that are choosed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to form an Government that is worthy to support and follow, I'm not alone in such a belief and there have been many Shia scholars who believe also on this.

These people would be probably not Shias if such persons didn't act politically at the first point. 

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1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

These people would be probably not Shias if such persons didn't act politically at the first point. 

If you think so, then you can call Sistani and others Scholars (Abu al-Qasim al-Khoei, Muhammad Hossein Naini, Borujerdi, Muhsin al-Hakim and others) who disagree with fallible governments non-Shias with that mentality. They agree and I also agree that we can not have true Islamic Government if Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) is not yet appeared and is with us. But at same time it is fine to advice the government for following best way, which I clearly referred in my previous post.

You need to get it in your mind, not all Shia's accept Iranian Government and you don't call them not Shias.

Edited by Abu Nur

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51 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

If you think so, then you can call Sistani and others Scholars (Abu al-Qasim al-Khoei, Muhammad Hossein Naini, Borujerdi, Muhsin al-Hakim and others) who disagree with fallible governments non-Shias with that mentality. They agree and I also agree that we can not have true Islamic Government if Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) is not yet appeared and is with us. But at same time it is fine to advice the government for following best way, which I clearly referred in my previous post.

You need to get it in your mind, not all Shia's accept Iranian Government and you don't call them not Shias.

We could never have a perfect Islamic government without an infaillible but this is is just a fact that if such people I talked before didn't involve politically Shias would be nowadays just little ethno-religious minorities like druzes and Alawites. And most Sunni Muslims would never hear about Shia Muslims in most of the globe. Let recognize this fact. Also just voicing is not sufficient. It is visible in Europe. Christian communities protested against same sex marriages but at the end of the day they achieved nothing. So yes thanks to Allah we had such scholars like ayatollah Khomeini who contrary so some scholars gave to shiism an international voice and stopped shiism to be a simple folklore without any presence in our societies. So yes I thanks Allah that we have such system in the biggest Shia country and not a secular one wich would led to a degenerate society like de see in some countries where they put religion out of politics. Finally hopefully Ayatollah Khomeini was in disagreement with the scholars you talked. Because these scholars criticized pahlavi but that didn't change his determination to westernized Iran so if not Khomeini Iran would be desislmaized today. 

Edited by Mohammadi_follower

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We have been surviving 1400 years, even before Safavid and so on, it is God who increase us or decrease us, the quality is more important. What does it even matter if we have international voice from fallible government, when the same government can bring us with this same voice more shame because of the human prone to error judgement. Let's keep it very clearly, Iran Government does no represent Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) Government where all Shias are prone to follow. Iran Government represent what  Iran nation and it's people have choosed. We as Shias are not wajib to follow such a government, nor vote for it etc. Same goes with Iraq if they choose to have Islamic Government.

Edited by Abu Nur

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11 hours ago, starlight said:

What are you talking about ? Prophets and Imams (عليه السلام) are divinely appointed.

Allah is As-Samad indeed but He is also All Powerful and controls everything that happens in the universe. 

 

12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does choose:

 “Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men. Verily Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” Surah Al-Hajj – Verses 75 

I'm talking about man in the Shadow of Allah.

Do we say Allah has ears and eyes, In the same manner as humans? No. Allah Chooses, not in the same manner as humans do. Our choose is predicated on our realty, environment, and perceptions. If we say Allah has chosen, it requires man to not lie on the signs of God, and recognize what has been decreed.  

Inshallah wa mashallah.

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11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

We have been surviving 1400 years, even before Safavid and so on, it is God who increase us or decrease us, the quality is more important. What does it even matter if we have international voice from fallible government, when the same government can bring us with this same voice more shame because of the human prone to error judgement. Let's keep it very clearly, Iran Government does no represent Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) Government where all Shias are prone to follow. Iran Government represent what  Iran nation and it's people have choosed. We as Shias are not wajib to follow such a government, nor vote for it etc. Same goes with Iraq if they choose to have Islamic Government.

Just for ask again a question. don’t you think that without these political figures among Shia communities I talked about we would be maybe nowadays not 10-15% of Muslims in this world but probably only something like 0,5% only in very few countries? I am personaly convince of that. Because contrary to what you say I never said that we would not survive without them. I said we would we an unknown religion with few followers like some small ethno religious groups. As for Shias in general following or not what iranian government do. I personally saw most Shias from Lebanon, Pakistan, India, Afghanistan and Africa following it. 

Edited by Mohammadi_follower

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18 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

Humans Choose. Allah Doesn't Choose. Allah is the Creator all, Allah causes all things to speak, its Humans who pretend they can't hear or say they heard something else.

Allah is beyond Choice. Hamdullah .

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ مِن ذُرِّيَّةِ آدَمَ وَمِمَّنْ حَمَلْنَا مَعَ نُوحٍ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْرَائِيلَ وَمِمَّنْ هَدَيْنَا وَاجْتَبَيْنَا ۚ إِذَا تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا - 19:58

Those were the ones upon whom Allah bestowed favor from among the Prophets of the descendants of Adam and of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah, and of the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose. When the verses of the Most Merciful were recited to them, they fell in prostration and weeping.

وَإِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ آيَةٌ قَالُوا لَن نُّؤْمِنَ حَتَّىٰ نُؤْتَىٰ مِثْلَ مَا أُوتِيَ رُسُلُ اللَّهِ ۘ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ حَيْثُ يَجْعَلُ رِسَالَتَهُ ۗ سَيُصِيبُ الَّذِينَ أَجْرَمُوا صَغَارٌ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَعَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ بِمَا كَانُوا يَمْكُرُونَ - 6:124

And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah ." Allah is most knowing of where He places His message. There will afflict those who committed crimes debasement before Allah and severe punishment for what they used to conspire.

 قُلِ الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ وَسَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ عِبَادِهِ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَىٰ ۗ آللَّهُ خَيْرٌ أَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ - 27:59

Say, [O Muhammad], "Praise be to Allah, and peace upon His servants whom He has chosen. Is Allah better or what they associate with Him?"

^The Qur'an says otherwise, brother.

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18 hours ago, starlight said:

Caliphs are chosen by Allah. Only a divine caliph can be infallible. 

we all have the ability not to sin. It does not make sense for Allah to ask us not to sin. He says" لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا ۚ " Surah 2 verse 286

Allah does not put a duty upon a soul except according to its ability. So it is possible for us, not only certain scholars (you know who I am talking about) to be sinless but it is also possible for Muslims who work at it to avoid sins and be sinless. Of course the infallibility of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is on a different level and different in nature in a way. Their level is not reachable by us. 

Imam Ali(عليه السلام) appointed governors who we can say had a sinless state like Malik Al Ashtar(رضي الله عنه) and Salman al Farsi(رضي الله عنه) (remember the hadith Salman mina ahlul bay(as)) but they were still not infallible like the Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) were. The point is they achieved a level of purification high enough that we can say from the point of view of running a government the issue of infallibility would not be a problem.

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20 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ مِن ذُرِّيَّةِ آدَمَ وَمِمَّنْ حَمَلْنَا مَعَ نُوحٍ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْرَائِيلَ وَمِمَّنْ هَدَيْنَا وَاجْتَبَيْنَا ۚ إِذَا تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا - 19:58

Those were the ones upon whom Allah bestowed favor from among the Prophets of the descendants of Adam and of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah, and of the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose. When the verses of the Most Merciful were recited to them, they fell in prostration and weeping.

وَإِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ آيَةٌ قَالُوا لَن نُّؤْمِنَ حَتَّىٰ نُؤْتَىٰ مِثْلَ مَا أُوتِيَ رُسُلُ اللَّهِ ۘ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ حَيْثُ يَجْعَلُ رِسَالَتَهُ ۗ سَيُصِيبُ الَّذِينَ أَجْرَمُوا صَغَارٌ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَعَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ بِمَا كَانُوا يَمْكُرُونَ - 6:124

And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah ." Allah is most knowing of where He places His message. There will afflict those who committed crimes debasement before Allah and severe punishment for what they used to conspire.

 قُلِ الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ وَسَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ عِبَادِهِ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَىٰ ۗ آللَّهُ خَيْرٌ أَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ - 27:59

Say, [O Muhammad], "Praise be to Allah, and peace upon His servants whom He has chosen. Is Allah better or what they associate with Him?"

^The Qur'an says otherwise, brother.

you don’t understand the way he is speaking though. I mean both brother Aziz and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Ill try to explain. Brother Aziz is speaking metaphorically and so is the Qur'an in a sense. Like when Allah says he has a hand or when he says "The East and the West belong to God. Whichever way you turn, there is the Face of God. God is all pervading and all knowing." surah baqarah verse 115. These verses don't mean God has a face and similarly the verses you qoute don’t necessarily imply God had a thought than said hmmm a or b I choose b. Allah chose those people in the verse based upon their action just like brother Aziz said

18 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

Humans Choose. Allah Doesn't Choose. Allah is the Creator all, Allah causes all things to speak, its Humans who pretend they can't hear or say they heard something else.

Think about what happens when humans don't pretend they can’t hear. They start to follow Islam they start to hear they sort of become chosen in a sense. because of their choices to follow Allah

That is my understanding hope it made sense.

And Allahu Alam

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On 1/28/2020 at 3:30 AM, azizaliallah said:
  1. Allah doesn't need to choose . We recognize Allah, through his creations. lmam Ali cannot be usurped, Ali did not humiliate himself fighting Abi Bakr over a Title of "Khalife". 
  2. Fire burns flesh, can this be changed ? no. What would the law be? Don't play with fire. Simple. Now try that with human society with more complex issues . Difficult.
  3. No "Islamic Government" means no Muslims, the last time we had Muslims was during Imam Ali? I don't no who is going to agree to this.
  4. Who is going to be Inspired by Islam other than Muslims? Allah creates and causes all thing to speak, and we know Allah through His creations. Allah doesn't choose.

Allah knows best 

 

On 1/28/2020 at 4:51 AM, starlight said:

Caliphs are chosen by Allah. Only a divine caliph can be infallible. 

 

On 1/28/2020 at 5:27 AM, Abu Nur said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does choose:

 “Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men. Verily Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” Surah Al-Hajj – Verses 75 

 

On 1/28/2020 at 5:56 AM, starlight said:

What are you talking about ? Prophets and Imams (عليه السلام) are divinely appointed.

Allah is As-Samad indeed but He is also All Powerful and controls everything that happens in the universe. 

 

On 1/28/2020 at 11:25 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ مِن ذُرِّيَّةِ آدَمَ وَمِمَّنْ حَمَلْنَا مَعَ نُوحٍ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْرَائِيلَ وَمِمَّنْ هَدَيْنَا وَاجْتَبَيْنَا ۚ إِذَا تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا - 19:58

Those were the ones upon whom Allah bestowed favor from among the Prophets of the descendants of Adam and of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah, and of the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose. When the verses of the Most Merciful were recited to them, they fell in prostration and weeping.

وَإِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ آيَةٌ قَالُوا لَن نُّؤْمِنَ حَتَّىٰ نُؤْتَىٰ مِثْلَ مَا أُوتِيَ رُسُلُ اللَّهِ ۘ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ حَيْثُ يَجْعَلُ رِسَالَتَهُ ۗ سَيُصِيبُ الَّذِينَ أَجْرَمُوا صَغَارٌ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَعَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ بِمَا كَانُوا يَمْكُرُونَ - 6:124

And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah ." Allah is most knowing of where He places His message. There will afflict those who committed crimes debasement before Allah and severe punishment for what they used to conspire.

 قُلِ الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ وَسَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ عِبَادِهِ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَىٰ ۗ آللَّهُ خَيْرٌ أَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ - 27:59

Say, [O Muhammad], "Praise be to Allah, and peace upon His servants whom He has chosen. Is Allah better or what they associate with Him?"

^The Qur'an says otherwise, brother.

 

On 1/28/2020 at 11:54 PM, TryHard said:

you don’t understand the way he is speaking though. I mean both brother Aziz and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Ill try to explain. Brother Aziz is speaking metaphorically and so is the Qur'an in a sense. Like when Allah says he has a hand or when he says "The East and the West belong to God. Whichever way you turn, there is the Face of God. God is all pervading and all knowing." surah baqarah verse 115. These verses don't mean God has a face and similarly the verses you qoute don’t necessarily imply God had a thought than said hmmm a or b I choose b. Allah chose those people in the verse based upon their action just like brother Aziz said

Think about what happens when humans don't pretend they can’t hear. They start to follow Islam they start to hear they sort of become chosen in a sense. because of their choices to follow Allah

That is my understanding hope it made sense.

And Allahu Alam

 

On 1/28/2020 at 5:46 PM, azizaliallah said:

 

I'm talking about man in the Shadow of Allah.

Do we say Allah has ears and eyes, In the same manner as humans? No. Allah Chooses, not in the same manner as humans do. Our choose is predicated on our realty, environment, and perceptions. If we say Allah has chosen, it requires man to not lie on the signs of God, and recognize what has been decreed.  

Inshallah wa mashallah.

We say Inshallah Al-Mahdi returns, when he does return how many of us are going to say Mashallah. How many of us are going to deny the signs of Allah. Only after the fact will most of us say God has Chosen this man. Prior to that, do we know Gods plan?  No. God is the best of planners. Does he plan out of ambition, to achieve goals like his creations? Or is it Gods plans manifest with his free will, while the created will within his creation. He determines without pressure of time, environment and need no advice from his creation. Allah indeed Chooses, do we recognize his signs.

A system of Governance pleasing to God, requires men who don't deny the signs of Allah. Does one exist somewhere on this Earth?

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3 hours ago, TryHard said:

Imam Ali(عليه السلام) appointed governors who we can say had a sinless state like Malik Al Ashtar(رضي الله عنه) and Salman al Farsi(رضي الله عنه)

^This is wrong, they were anointed because they were just, capable and gave bayah to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). They were never recipients of ismah, therefore how can one say they were in a sinless state?

Infallibility belongs to the Imamah, which belongs to the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) only as spiritual and political successors of Muhammad (sawas)

Quote

Certainly, this was not because of their physical relationship with the Prophet; rather their spiritual attributes, intellectual abilities and so forth became the reason that Allah chose them alone from among the people to succeed the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family), just as the Qur’an says about the successors of the Prophets as well:

إِنَّ اللهَ اصْطَفَى آدَمَ وَنُوْحًا وَآلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَآلَ عِمْرَانَ عَلَى الْعَالميِنَ.

“Verily Allah chose Adam, Nuh, the family of Ibrahim, and the family of `Imran over all the people of the world.1

If the people want to tread the true path in all matters, they must follow them and regard them as wali al-amr (guardians of the believers’ affairs), must consider it obligatory to obey them, and must respect their commands just like the commands of the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family).

 

3 hours ago, TryHard said:

Brother Aziz is speaking metaphorically and so is the Qur'an in a sense. Like when Allah says he has a hand or when he says "The East and the West belong to God. Whichever way you turn, there is the Face of God. God is all pervading and all knowing." surah baqarah verse 115. These verses don't mean God has a face and similarly the verses you qoute don’t necessarily imply God had a thought than said hmmm a or b I choose b.

I know that, I'm not a literalist but they were chosen so we may know and worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He has no need of us, yet He perfected our religion for us on Ghadeer Khumm after Muhammad (sawas) designated Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor.

Which further proves my point that the only legitimate Islamic government after Imam Ali (عليه السلام) will be with al-Mahdi (afts).

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1 minute ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

^This is wrong, they were anointed because they were just, capable and gave bayah to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). They were never recipients of ismah, therefore how can one say they were in a sinless state?

I did not say they were elected solely on the basis of being sinless they did do all those things as well. Because of their high spiritual level which they reached with purification done by avoiding sins and doing the right thing (like some of the things you mentioned) we can say they were able to eventually reach a level where they can stay away from sins. You don't Ismah as a gift that is a misunderstanding. Ismah is earned. Through purification.

 

6 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Infallibility belongs to the Imamah, which belongs to the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) only as spiritual and political successors of Muhammad (sawas)

Answer the rest of my post I answered this. And no infallibility from sins does not only belong to Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Bring evidence to prove your point as I have brought mine. Bring me one hadith that says only the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) wont commit sins. I just want one. Ill repeat why would Allah ask us to do something we can’t do when he says in the Qur'an he does not put a burden on a soul that it cannot bear. 

9 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I know that, I'm not a literalist but they were chosen so we may know and worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He has no need of us, yet He perfected our religion for us on Ghadeer Khumm after Muhammad (sawas) designated Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor.

Which further proves my point that the only legitimate Islamic government after Imam Ali (عليه السلام) will be with al-Mahdi (afts).

none of what you said proves your point. I agree that Allah chose them as our leaders and our Imams. How does that contradict Islamic government or what me and brother Aziz have been saying?

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On 1/29/2020 at 4:49 AM, TryHard said:

none of what you said proves your point. I agree that Allah chose them as our leaders and our Imams. How does that contradict Islamic government or what me and brother Aziz have been saying?

Because what brother Aziz  said was that Allah doesn't choose His messengers or his Imamah when this contradicts the Qur'an  and what the Imams have said about their role. What I have been trying to say is that a true Islamic government has already been chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and all "Islamic governments" after  Ali's (عليه السلام) death are not legitimate and I also agree with Abu Nur that Iran doesn't speak for the Ummah.

 

On 1/29/2020 at 4:49 AM, TryHard said:

Ill repeat why would Allah ask us to do something we can’t do when he says in the Qur'an he does not put a burden on a soul that it cannot bear. 

He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wouldn't, He already sent the Prophet (sawas) and the Imams (عليه السلام) so that we may be know Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If we were meant to establish Islamic government by ourselves , then the Imamah would be redundant and pointless, astaghfirillah.

 

On 1/29/2020 at 4:49 AM, TryHard said:

Answer the rest of my post I answered this. And no infallibility from sins does not only belong to Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Bring evidence to prove your point as I have brought mine. Bring me one hadith that says only the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) wont commit sins.

I'll do you one better,  an ayah straight from Al-Qur'an: "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O' people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification." [33:33] 

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا - 33:33

Last time I checked, Salman al-Farsi (رضي الله عنه) and Malik al-Ashtar (رضي الله عنه) weren't under the cloak with Muhammad (sawas)

And here are the hadiths: 

"Ali is with the truth and the truth is with Ali." [Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 38, pp. 358].

"Ali is with the truth and Qur'an, and the truth and Qur'an are with Ali." [Rabi' al-Abrār, vol. 1, pp. 828 and Farā'id al-Simṭayn, vol. 1, pp. 177].

Narrated Alī bin Ibrāhim, from his father, from Hammād ibn ‘Isa, from Ibrāhim ibn Omar al-Yamānī, from Sulaym ibn Qays al-Hilālī, from Amīr al-Mū‘minīn, who has said the following:

“Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, cleansed us, granted us protection against sins, made us to bear witness to the activities of His creatures and granted us Divine authority on Earth. He made us to be with the holy Qur'an and the Holy Qur'an to be with us. We do not depart the Holy Qur'an and the Holy Qur'an does not depart us.”

References:

1. al-Kāfī, vol. 1, pp. 191.
2. Kamāl al-Dīn, vol. 1, pp. 268.

Why is the truth with Ali (عليه السلام)? Because according to 33:33, Allah intended only for the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) to be purified to receive the ismah. Therefore, an Islamic government must be established by someone who is just, pure, sinless and chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Gods Choice is his dominion. We cannot explore this subject in depth. Most Definitely he chooses. Its upon us to recognize the signs of Allah or be confronted with his Warith. 

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50 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

Gods Choice is his dominion. We cannot explore this subject in depth. Most Definitely he chooses. Its upon us to recognize the signs of Allah or be confronted with his Warith. 

Agreed, so be careful and try to refrain from saying:

On 1/28/2020 at 6:10 AM, azizaliallah said:

Humans Choose. Allah Doesn't Choose. Allah is the Creator all, Allah causes all things to speak, its Humans who pretend they can't hear or say they heard something else.

 

On 1/29/2020 at 12:54 AM, TryHard said:

necessarily imply God had a thought than said hmmm a or b I choose b. Allah chose those people in the verse based upon their action just like brother Aziz said

@TryHard He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn't choose like how we choose and He certainly didn't choose the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) based on their actions, they were purified because of their inherent spirituality and nearness to Him. Hence, your statement about Salman al-Farsi (رضي الله عنه) and Malik al-Ashtar (رضي الله عنه) is wrong.

 

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2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Because what brother Aziz  said was that Allah doesn't choose His messengers or his Imamah when this contradicts the Qur'an  and what the Imams have said about their role. What I have been trying to say is that a true Islamic government has already been chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and all "Islamic governments" after  Ali's (عليه السلام) death are not legitimate and I also agree with Abu Nur that Iran doesn't speak for the Ummah.

So you will choose to ignore my entire explanation? That just proves my point about you being disingenuous. 

 

2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wouldn't, He already sent the Prophet (sawas) and the Imams (عليه السلام) so that we may be know Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If we were meant to establish Islamic government by ourselves , then the Imamah would be redundant and pointless, astaghfirillah.

Again the argument I was making was about Isma. I was not going over Islamic government yet. But for whatever reason you chose to ignore that and bring it up. I'm getting sick of falling for your trolling an baiting. 

2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I'll do you one better,  an ayah straight from Al-Qur'an: "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O' people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification." [33:33] 

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا - 33:33

Last time I checked, Salman al-Farsi (رضي الله عنه) and Malik al-Ashtar (رضي الله عنه) weren't under the cloak with Muhammad (sawas)

And here are the hadiths: 

"Ali is with the truth and the truth is with Ali." [Biḥār al-Anwār, vol. 38, pp. 358].

"Ali is with the truth and Qur'an, and the truth and Qur'an are with Ali." [Rabi' al-Abrār, vol. 1, pp. 828 and Farā'id al-Simṭayn, vol. 1, pp. 177].

Narrated Alī bin Ibrāhim, from his father, from Hammād ibn ‘Isa, from Ibrāhim ibn Omar al-Yamānī, from Sulaym ibn Qays al-Hilālī, from Amīr al-Mū‘minīn, who has said the following:

“Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, cleansed us, granted us protection against sins, made us to bear witness to the activities of His creatures and granted us Divine authority on Earth. He made us to be with the holy Qur'an and the Holy Qur'an to be with us. We do not depart the Holy Qur'an and the Holy Qur'an does not depart us.”

References:

1. al-Kāfī, vol. 1, pp. 191.
2. Kamāl al-Dīn, vol. 1, pp. 268.

Why is the truth with Ali (عليه السلام)? Because according to 33:33, Allah intended only for the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) to be purified to receive the ismah. Therefore, an Islamic government must be established by someone who is just, pure, sinless and chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Lol. 

None of what you said is better or even satisfactory to say the least again read my request COMPLETELY.

On 1/29/2020 at 4:49 AM, TryHard said:

 And no infallibility from sins does not only belong to Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Bring evidence to prove your point as I have brought mine. Bring me one hadith that says only the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) wont commit sins. I just want one. 

I asked for a hadith or Qur'an that says ONLY the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) wont commit sins. You have failed to bring that specifically like I knew you would. Note I never said Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) were not sinless ever! and never argued that. I also know of ayat al tattheer.  Allah granted their infallibility because they earned it they were special. Of course we both know that. What you seem to misunderstand is that the infallibility the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is at a much higher level than not committing sins as we understand them though even that aspect of it is higher than we know. 

However there is no hadith or verse from the Qur'an that says normal Muslims who work hard can’t achieve a state where they are free from sins. Dude this is not even a WF thing really. I have heard from hawza students and knowledgeable people on this subject. They all agree. This idea of yours that only Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are free from sins and the rest of us can never be free from them till death is not a correct aqeeda regardless of Islamic government or not. But this also is quite telling of the mentality you have and why you think the way you do. I know you are disingenuous and wont answer all my points just the ones that you want. 

 

Edited by TryHard

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Agreed, so be careful and try to refrain from saying

Again you misunderstand him. He wasn't contradicting himself he was trying again to explain to you but you still don't get it sadly. 

1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@TryHard He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn't choose like how we choose and He certainly didn't choose the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) based on their actions, they were purified because of their inherent spirituality and nearness to Him. Hence, your statement about Salman al-Farsi (رضي الله عنه) and Malik al-Ashtar (رضي الله عنه) is wrong.

bring proof that he didn't choose them based on their action. So none of what the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did contributed to his spirituality and nearness with God? If he had inherit spirituality independent of action than why would he need to do things like pray or fast? He will be chosen anyways because actions aren't the reason why he was chosen according to you. 

You are belittling the status of those two great companions of the Imam (عليه السلام) due to your ignorance and arrogance. Actually research and study those companions in depth and the times they were living in back then it wasn't easy to see Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for the way he was yet somehow those two and a few others managed just that. It wasn't random Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) didn't do a lottery and they somehow won (like you believe with Isma) they had to develop themselves and their character as momineen. That involved purifying themselves from sin. 

Edited by TryHard

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Its true I made the Statement

Quote

Humans Choose. Allah Doesn't Choose. Allah is the Creator all, Allah causes all things to speak, its Humans who pretend they can't hear or say they heard something else.

Mashallah Im happy this statement has Humans and Allah at juxtaposition with one another. 

I didn't make you fail to differentiate between Creator and Created. 

Say: ‘Praise be to God.  He will show you His Signs and you will recognize them.  Your Lord is not heedless of anything you do.’” (Qur'an 27:93)

“Only they forge the lie who do not believe in Allah’s communications, and these are the liars.” Surah an-Nahl, verse 105:

Allah's communications to mankind is manifest in creation and not by Bureaucratic decree. Not by telephone call nor by face to face meetings. Creator Communications are unique from Creation communications.  Allahs choice is unique from mankind's choice.

(Disclaimer: im not calling anyone in this thread a Liar .)

I also made this statement

Quote

Gods Choice is his dominion. We cannot explore this subject in depth. Most Definitely he chooses. Its upon us to recognize the signs of Allah or be confronted with his Wraith. 

I wont refrain from making these statements in the future. Its God who compels. Choice of God is his dominion and we can not trespass, we have to recognize his sovereignty, and what has been written. We only know what has been written after the fact, never before it. 

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2 hours ago, TryHard said:

Again the argument I was making was about Isma. I was not going over Islamic government yet. But for whatever reason you chose to ignore that and bring it up. I'm getting sick of falling for your trolling an baiting. 

And I'm getting sick and tired of you painting me as disingenuous when I answered you about Ismah.  Maybe "try  harder" at reading comprehension.

 

2 hours ago, TryHard said:

This idea of yours that only Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are free from sins and the rest of us can never be free from them till death is not a correct aqeeda regardless of Islamic government or not.

This is the standard teaching in the Jafari madhab. The Imams are infallible and do not sin in any capacity, to suggest otherwise is go against the Qur'an. The Ismah was already predetermined and was given to the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and 'Anbiya (عليه السلام). Other than the 'Anbiya (عليه السلام) and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), nobody else in the world is infallible.

You say that I'm being disrespectful to Salman al Farsi (رضي الله عنه) and Malik al-Ashtar (رضي الله عنه), while you exaggerate their status and end up ascribing the ismah to them because of their actions . It's very disrespectful to the dead and I'm here to tell you, that ordinary mortals like you and I have no chance of ever attaining that status. It's already been decided, you see.

Quote

1) The phrase “Aulu al–Amr”, in the Qur’anic verse, is plural in form, inclusive of individuals (whose decisions ought to be obeyed; that is, each one of them pronounces a decision that ought to be obeyed). If, on the other hand, it means the People of Hal wa Aqd, it will be a collective unit, which opposes the apparent meaning of the verse.

The verse obviously indicates the necessity of obeying those in authority, each of whom has to be obeyed by a special command. They are not a “group” whose members have to be obeyed through a joint decision.

2) Ismah (inerrancy) is a divinely–bestowed immunity, a real spiritual quality, requiring a real referent (to match) who must undertake a genuine affair “the People of Hall and Aqd”, is a collective unit and collective unit is an arbitrary group. It is thus impossible to apply a genuine affair to an arbitrary one.

3) All Muslims agree that other than the Imams of the Shiites and the Prophets there are no infallible (m’asum) ones.

From Ridha Kardan 's "Imamate and Infallibility of the Imams in Qur'an"

Quote

The word 'ismah literally means “protection”. In Islamic terminology, it means “infallibility”. Infallibility is defined as “a spiritual grace (lutf) of Allah to a person which enables him to abstain from sins by his own free will.”1

A person who has been given that grace of God is called a ma'sum , infallible, sinless.

This power of 'ismah does not make the ma'sum person incapable of committing sins. A ma'sum refrains from sins and mistakes by his power and will. If it were otherwise, then there would be no merit in being ma'sum! A ma'sum is able to abstain from sins because of (a) highest level of righteousness, and (b) ever-present consciousness and love for God, and (c) certain knowledge about the consequences of committing sins.

The point you seemed to be making was that they had the capability  but that's a moot point because a ma'sum wouldn't even consider sinning. Again, people can't get to this stage through good deeds and righteousness.

^This chapter is from Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi.

Lastly, from a book I have been reading by Ayatullah Loftollah Safi Golpaygani:

Quote

They have always stressed on the need of worship to God and not one among the Shia has ever fancied in his remotest imagination that they are equal to God; they are created ones not the creator; they need to be fed - hence, needy; they depend on God - hence, not on themselves; they are men like us - hence, no similitude with God; such is the belief of a Shia. God has vested them with the knowledge not common to all. 

This was the purpose of the Imamate, they were human but the best of people. Hence they were given Imamah. Having the ismah doesn't mean just being sinless but being given uncommon knowledge from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (e.g. The Unseen)

They are spiritual guides for us, so that we may know Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Where it ties in with what I have previously said is this: The only person capable of establishing Islamic government is from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), because he will follow Allah and the Qur'an. Seeing as we are still in the age of the Ghaybah, he has yet to come.  No country right now can be considered as having an Islamic government right now.

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6 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 

Lastly, from a book I have been reading by Ayatullah Loftollah Safi Golpaygani:

This was the purpose of the Imamate, they were human but the best of people. Hence they were given Imamah. Having the ismah doesn't mean just being sinless but being given uncommon knowledge from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (e.g. The Unseen)

They are spiritual guides for us, so that we may know Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Where it ties in with what I have previously said is this: The only person capable of establishing Islamic government is from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), because he will follow Allah and the Qur'an. Seeing as we are still in the age of the Ghaybah, he has yet to come.  No country right now can be considered as having an Islamic government right now.

The point is that when infaillibles are not here at least we could try to do our best to have a system which could be the closer as possible to an Islamic government. No one deny that only an infaillible could make a 100% Islamic government but at least we could do our best to copy them as best as we could. 

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