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Jay93

The Injil

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On 1/28/2020 at 2:53 AM, Son of Placid said:

Hi Jay, welcome to the site.

The Injil is mentioned 9 times in the Qur'an, if I recall correctly. Never is it referred to as a book, and is not considered to be the Gospels. From what I understand, the injil is the same revelation as was given to every Prophet. Demographics may change the customs over time, but the base message is all the same. 

The best and probably closest to the Injil would be the sermon on the mount, Matt 5-7. It's basically the only sermon recorded.

Thank you for your response. Are you a Christian?

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On 1/28/2020 at 2:53 AM, Jay93 said:

Greetings,

I am a follower of Jesus and I like to have discussions about the Injil, the Gospel of Jesus.

Has anyone here read the Injil or interested in it?

Greetings Jay and welcome to this site.

Assuming that it did exist at any point in time, the Injeel is not known to exist any more.

No one knows in depth what it contained except that it agreed with some elements of the gospels and disagreed with some others.

All the best to you. 

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Hi Baqar,

Is that really you? I have not been very active on Shiachat for the last 5 years, so I have kind of lost touch. --- But I see that Son of Placid is still here.

Good to see your name again and I will be watching for your posts.

Blessings

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The Injeel does not exist anymore. The Injeel a lot of times gets translated as "The Bible" but they're not equivalents of each other. The Injeel is the holy book revelated to Prophet Isa (Jesus) and it is 100% the word of God. The contemporary Bible isn't. So... unfortunately you won’t be able to read it until Imam Al-Mahdi returns, he will bring back with him the Original Injeel. If you're interested in reading the Injeel, I would recommend reading the Qur'an as they would call to the same thing, worship the only God, Allah, God of all Prophets, mankind and whole of creation.

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2 hours ago, placid said:

Hi Baqar,

Is that really you? I have not been very active on Shiachat for the last 5 years, so I have kind of lost touch. --- But I see that Son of Placid is still here.

Good to see your name again and I will be watching for your posts.

Blessings

Hi Placid

Welcome back.

It will be a pleasure to have you here again.

Look forward to your discussions.

baqar

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On 1/28/2020 at 2:53 AM, Son of Placid said:

The best and probably closest to the Injil would be the sermon on the mount, Matt 5-7. It's basically the only sermon recorded.

Hi There

Let's not go down the road of the Injil doesn't exist it will only lead to unproductive arguments.

But let us assume that Matthew chapters 5-7 are the closest to the true Injil we have.

What do we think about the teaching of Jesus found in those chapters?

you can find the verses here https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5&version=NIV

The chapters say some quite radical stuff.  I would love to hear what people think about the ideas found there

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On 3/5/2020 at 8:05 PM, ahlulbaytkr said:

The Injeel is the holy book revelated to Prophet Isa (Jesus) and it is 100% the word of God.

What an amazing comment!  Jesus's words are 100% from God!

I have a picture of God who is a caring and loving God.  He speaks to us to show us the way to new life and intimacy with himself.  His words are so important that he would never let them be lost.  He is powerful enough to protect them, Knowing enogh to be aware if they were changed and Moral enough to make sure they always were true.

If we believe in that kind of God, we will benefit from reading what Jesus said - words that have been protected, maintained and watched over by the Almighty God.

I see no one is prepared to discuss the sermon on the mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) - interesting!!

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On 5/9/2020 at 11:00 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

What an amazing comment!  Jesus's words are 100% from God!

I have a picture of God who is a caring and loving God.  He speaks to us to show us the way to new life and intimacy with himself.  His words are so important that he would never let them be lost.  He is powerful enough to protect them, Knowing enogh to be aware if they were changed and Moral enough to make sure they always were true.

If we believe in that kind of God, we will benefit from reading what Jesus said - words that have been protected, maintained and watched over by the Almighty God.

I see no one is prepared to discuss the sermon on the mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) - interesting!!

"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven." I love how Jesus starts with the person that is spiritually bankrupt, and insufficient. I heard someone say once, you shouldn't hope to run into Heaven but crawl. You have to pour yourself out before you can be filled. 

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On 5/4/2020 at 3:27 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Let's not go down the road of the Injil doesn't exist it will only lead to unproductive arguments.

Not at all what I said.

I said the Injil does not exist as a book. There are groups with varying ideas on how much of a book it was and what happened to it but there is no reference to any tangible book in the Quran. There may be ahadith that says different but Jesus never carried a book. If so it would have been referenced, revered, and copied for the world to see. 

Christians translate Injil as "good news" and thnk it must mean the Gospels, but it doesn't. The Gospels are better described as the life and times of Jesus. God does not narrate.

It exists as the revelation given to the Prophets from God. For the most part it was the same message but practiced according to demographics, therefore, different. If that makes any sense. Actually, that's the basis for most arguments between religions. Past Prophets didn't preach it much, they were too busy trying to keep Israelites in line.

I referenced the Sermon on the mount as the longest quoted speech Jesus gave. These are the words of God translated into a human language and a good test if you're looking for true Christians. This is what we are supposed to be. There's no "easy" button, and not a lot of instruction on the disciplines but "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you." "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."   It's good to take notice when the same promise is mentioned twice.

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4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Jesus never carried a book

Yep - I'll go along with that

4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Christians translate Injil as "good news"

Yes Injil comes from the Greek word εὐαγγέλιον euangélion, meaning "Good News".  And yes they are accounts of the life and sayings of Jesus the Messiah.  The first followers and friends of Jesus saw the things he did and said and the KIngdom he brought in which he calls us to enter as Good News.  So The whole Jesus event is Good News - Gospel - Injil.

Maybe because Muslim people see the Qur'an as a Book which was given to Muhammed, they use the same frame work to understand all the other books which they believe in. The Torah - 'given' to Moses, the Zebur - 'given' to David, and the Injil 'given' to Jesus.  However we need to be careful about looking at one thing with a preconceived idea. The Torah is a set of stories and teaching which was maybe collected/edited/recorded/redacted by Moses or around that time.  The Zebur is a collection of songs and poems and wise sayings composed by a number of people over a long period of time.  Similarly in a different way the Injil is the accounts of Jesus as people who knew him reflecting on the teaching and actions which they remebered.  The focus is God's Kingdom and how, through Jesus, that Kingdom was inugurated.  Subsiquently God inspired those first folllowers to reflect on the meaning and out come of Jesus', death, resurection and assension in the light of his kingdom message.

4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

God does not narrate.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - We need to be careful saying "God does not ...."  I believe that the only thing that God does not do is evil and break his promises.  If God wants to pass on his truth through narration he is free and able to do that.  Jesus passed on much of God's teaching through story - parable.  In the Qur'an are many stories and accounts of events.

5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you." "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."   It's good to take notice when the same promise is mentioned twice.

Yes let's seek after righteousness.  Much of the Sermon on the mount is about what Righteousness is in God's eyes.  It is quite a high standard.  Too hight for us to attain.  So like most guidlines like this it causes us to call out to God for forgiveness, help and power to live for him. 

I was meditating on "Blessed are the poor in spirit" this morning and felt it is saying God will bless those who recognise they are spiritually lacking.  He will bless them with entry into his Kingdom.  The state where God rules and directs a person or community's life.

Lord God may we all recognise our poverty of spirit so you may fill us with your Holy Spirit

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In the New Testament itself, the "Gospel" is internally referred to as a doctrine (sometimes referred to as "Gospel of the Kingdom").. Later in Paul's epistles, he subverts the definition of the concept to being ABOUT Jesus, rather than the doctrine of Jesus' teaching as defined earlier. Also worth noting that there is a verse that states John the Baptist taught this doctrine before meting Jesus, which is also very curious in itself.

Anyway, in the Holy Qur'an, it refers to the Injeel as a revelation given to Jesus. The Word of God, like the Qur'an (though not preserved like the Qur'an).

The thing is that it may never have been a book, we don't know. We only know that it was revealed to Jesus by God and Jesus taught it. 

Matthew/Mark/Luke/John are certainly not synonymous with this "Gospel" (and "Gospel of the Kingdom") that Jesus taught that's for sure, in fact those books went untitled for a long time and still remain anonymous books.

 

On this side, this is a fascinating article: https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/general-al-tawhid/gospel-shia-ali-muhammad-legenhausen/gospel-shiah-ali

Edited by al-Muttaqin

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On 5/5/2020 at 6:27 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hi There

Let's not go down the road of the Injil doesn't exist it will only lead to unproductive arguments.

But let us assume that Matthew chapters 5-7 are the closest to the true Injil we have.

What do we think about the teaching of Jesus found in those chapters?

you can find the verses here https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5&version=NIV

The chapters say some quite radical stuff.  I would love to hear what people think about the ideas found there

Mathew 5:17 Jesus came to fulfil the Law and the prophets not abolish it. The sermon has many truths but also some added words and falsehood. I personally believe the gospel(s) when reconstructed can be reliable.  The injel is jesus himself, it is a will known fact that the gospel was preached orally before it got written down years later on. 

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On 5/9/2020 at 11:00 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I see no one is prepared to discuss the sermon on the mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) - interesting!!

The sermon has many truths in it, what’s interest me is Mathew 5:19-20 and then Jesus explains how to surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees. 

 

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. 

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

This part highlights that their should be no grudges amongst the believers and a person should hurry to settle matters quickly so that person may not be punished in the hereafter or in the world. And settling matters is much greater then giving charity. (This is btw revised) 

 

Adultery

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’  28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

this sermon highlights that even getting close to sin can still get you and make you trip, it’s better to have an eye removed then to get close to sin and potentially commit a sin and be thrown in hell. 

 

Oaths

33“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. 

This sermon highlights that a person shouldn’t not make oaths on something that is very minimal and not worthy of an oath, oaths should be only used in very serious and worthy matters nothing minor or small or worthless. 

 

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor ’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be godly servants of your Lord. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your Lord is perfect.

this sermon highlights that you should show love to enemies in a reasonable way and supplicate for them in hopes to see the light. 

 

 

 

 

Giving to the Needy

1“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Lord.

2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others.  3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Lord, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

Prayer

5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Lord, who is unseen. Then your Lord, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you supplicate, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Lord knows what you need before you ask him.

9“This, then, is how you should pray:

“ ‘Our Lord,

hallowed be your name,

10your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

11Give us today our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, a

but deliver us from the evil one.b ’

14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Lord will not forgive your sins.

 

this sermon over here regarding supplication highlights that you don’t have name everything that’s going wrong or every single thing that you want in details, rather you should make your supplication less of a burden by going to deep details and make it more general and hopeful and covers all issues since the Lord knows you struggles and will provide for you without going forever in really deep details. 

 

Fasting

16“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Lord, who is unseen; and your Lord, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

this small portion of sermon from the giving to the needy to this part highlights that a person shouldn’t do righteousness infront of others to be praised by other people because you will have no reward rather it should between you and God only because God is the only being that you should seek to impress and no body else. 

 

Treasures in Heaven

19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy(generous), c your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are unhealthy(stingy), your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

this sermon highlights that a person shouldn’t be too attached to the world and let it drown you rather you should strive for good deeds first then make this temporary minor enjoyment second you can not be too attached to the world and to God at same time other wise your just deceiving yourself, it is the good deeds that get you to paradise and give all sorts of pleasure over their. The sermon also highlights that a person should not show jeleousy which leads to giving an evil eye rather he/she should be generous by wishing them the best for this a sign of a true believer, if you perceive that genrousity as darkness then how great is that genrousity ! Because you will get a great reward in return in this world. 

 

Do Not Worry

25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your Lord feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life e ?

28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your Lord knows that you need them. 33But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

this sermon highlights that a person shouldn’t let his/her worries overtake their God consciousness, hope and faith in God rather they should fix them while being God conscious and having faith and trust in God almighty for God does not leave His creation in dispair. 

 

Judging Others

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Lord give good gifts to those who ask him!12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

this particular sermon highlights that when you ask the Lord for something it will be given to you if you are sincere and when you’re seeking for something God will light the way for you and help you find it, and when you’re knocking a doors God will open a door for you so don’t loose hope. 

 

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to eternal life, and only a few find it.

 

this is a prophecy about which sect is the true path, this prophecy makes it clear that this particular sect will be in a small minority and many people will follow the wrong sect which is the wide gate broad road which leads them to a immoral pagan lifestyle which leads them to destruction, only a minority will find the true path. That sect is called “the Way” which jesus claims to be in John 14. 

 

True and False Prophets

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

 

True and False Followers 

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Master, Master,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Lord.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Master, Master, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

this sermon is very fundamental and ties up with the narrow gate and broad gate parable, jesus prophecies about a certain people to come who will testify that Jesus is their master but don’t follow his teachings which God’s teachings. This prophecy is about all Pauline Christians trinitarian or not they follow Paul’s religion not jesus religion. 

 

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

if you’re a Pauline then you are in no mans land you’re standing on nothing. 

I hope liked this revised version. 

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On 5/18/2020 at 12:55 PM, al-Muttaqin said:

In the New Testament itself, the "Gospel" is internally referred to as a doctrine (sometimes referred to as "Gospel of the Kingdom")..

The Gospel of the Kingdom.  Matthew talks about the message of Jesus and uses the term Kingdom of Heaven (most probably because his audience were Jews who didn't use the word God) and MArk and Luke use the same concept calling it the Kingdom of God.

Yes

On 5/18/2020 at 12:55 PM, al-Muttaqin said:

this "Gospel" (and "Gospel of the Kingdom") that Jesus taught that's for sure

 

On 5/18/2020 at 12:55 PM, al-Muttaqin said:

it refers to the Injeel as a revelation given to Jesus. The Word of God, like the Qur'an (though not preserved like the Qur'an).

We need to be careful about saying God's words have not been preserved - it calls into question God's charater and moral standing.

If the KIndgom teaching is God's word and the Gospel (Good News from God) we will do well to read and study it.  More than that to put it into practice.

Thank you to the guest who posted it above with some helpful comments.

The last parable

On 5/18/2020 at 9:12 PM, Guest Guest said:

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Also points to the importance of reading and putting into practice the teaching of Jesus

May we be those who read this sermon of Jesus and live like it.

 

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54 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

God's words have not been preserved

The gospel is jesus himself. The gospel that we have today is a biography of Jesus it is not scripture like the Torah. The gospel we have today is understood to be a book of theology and principles. Behind every incident or parable their is a principle or a theology. In order to understand the today’s gospel it has to be reconstructed and look at the deeper layers of each incident, parable and verse. 

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On 5/18/2020 at 3:12 PM, Guest Guest said:

The sermon has many truths in it, what’s interest me is Mathew 5:19-20 and then Jesus explains how to surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees. 

Guest Guest, 

It is very interesting indeed!

One of the purposes of the law given to the people of God was to give them ways to his his righteousness and holiness, basically to lead his people to his heart.  He frequently states that he desires mercy more than sacrifice.  God has always been more interested in people responding in the right way out of love and relationship with God.  The law showed the people that he meant business.  Basically, you people want to do it your way, I'm going to show you how holy and good I am.  The law was a mirror.  When you look into a mirror you see your reflection,and the closer you get the more you can see your imperfections.  The law was that to the people.  When they saw how holy and righteous God was by his law, it was a way to follow him, repent, and a road to his heart.  Unfortunately, many of the people took the law and used it as a way to just simply do what God was saying, and still acting evil after all was accomplished.  God desires mercy, not sacrifice.  

Jesus comes in the same spirit.  He shows the people, like in Matthew 5:19-20 and in other places that the law is impossible to follow perfectly.  Unless they exceeded the righteousness of the teachers of those days, they could not enter the kingdom.  Jesus is showing the people that the system of outward righteousness that was seen by the Pharisees and other teachers was not righteousness at all.  The way the people viewed the kingdom, holiness and righteousness was way off.  Jesus also talks about murder by simply hating someone and adultery by simply looking at someone wrongly.  He also talks about in other parts how it's impossible for rich man to enter the kingdom of God, but everything was possible with God.  By Jesus coming to not get rid of the law, he's not trying to say the law was bad, but it was only a teacher, or a mirror.  It had a neutral stance. But he came to fulfill the law, in other words, do all the works of the law perfectly and therefore become the righteousness of men because no one could ever have fulfilled that law by themselves.  The sacrifices in the old testament were a foreshadowing of the perfect lamb of God who would come to take away the sins of the world.  Jesus would go from place to place and it was those who humbled themselves before him and realized their dirtiness and sinfulness before God, who came to believe in him.  Jesus came to save from sins and also release people from a great burden and weight of an imperfect sacrificial system that led to endless sacrifices and no complete removal of sins.  Jesus says in Matthew 11:28, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."  When one turned to Jesus and believed in who he said he was, they entered into God's rest, having their sins forgiven, not having to worry about what the law said anymore in an endless system that they could not beat because of their sin.  Now, instead, those who turned to Jesus would receive his Spirit, a new heart and mind, and the ability to overcome sin and death because the one who overcame that lives inside and is guiding them, giving them the power to do this.  The law is now summed up into two commands.  Love God, and love people.  When we follow this, we do not get tripped up in every single thing that the old law had in it.  The old moral laws were and still are not bad.  But when your only law is to love, you are free to follow Jesus and love others because "love covers a multitude of sins."  If you pursue love, having love already living inside of you to help you, than you will naturally begin following all the moral laws.  However, the Bible explicitly states that we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith.    

God bless and take care!  

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On 5/21/2020 at 1:18 AM, tdawg626 said:

He shows the people, like in Matthew 5:19-20 and in other places that the law is impossible to follow perfectly.

He just explained how to follow the law perfectly.... and it’s not that hard, its you who makes it hard. Read my other post. 

 

On 5/21/2020 at 1:18 AM, tdawg626 said:

One of the purposes of the law given to the people of God was to give them ways to his his righteousness and holiness, basically to lead his people to his heart.

The reason why God gave us a law code is to culture us, humans can be higher angels or lower animals. I’m sure you have seen humans act like animals in every aspect of their lives because of not following a law code. The law is their to teach mankind morality, ethics, wisdom and how humans are supposed to act, And this law code updates as time progresses by God.

Mathew 5:17, jesus came to fulfil the Law and the prophets and James the just emphasis on following the law James 2:8-11, James 2:14, now since Jesus came to fulfil the law the prophets then jesus came to fulfil Hosea 6:6, sacrifices have been abrogated long ago so this whole idea of jesus being a sacrifice is a flawed argument and a paulin teaching. 

 

Jesus came to bring back the lost sheep of Israel back to the true worship of God and to make the truth clear and that truth was the way to eternal life(salvation) and came with clear arguments and miracles.

It’s Guest Guest btw 

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He shows the people, like in Matthew 5:19-20 and in other places that the law is impossible to follow perfectly.

He just explained how to follow the law perfectly.... and it’s not that hard, its you who makes it hard. Read my other post. 

 

   On 5/21/2020 at 1:18 AM,  tdawg626 said: 

One of the purposes of the law given to the people of God was to give them ways to his his righteousness and holiness, basically to lead his people to his heart.

The reason why God gave us a law code is to culture us, humans can be higher angels or lower animals. I’m sure you have seen humans act like animals in every aspect of their lives because of not following a law code. The law is their to teach mankind morality, ethics, wisdom and how humans are supposed to act, And this law code updates as time progresses by God.

Mathew 5:17, jesus came to fulfil the Law and the prophets and James the just emphasis on following the law James 2:8-11, James 2:14, now since Jesus came to fulfil the law the prophets then jesus came to fulfil Hosea 6:6, sacrifices have been abrogated long ago so this whole idea of jesus being a sacrifice is a flawed argument and a paulin teaching. 

 

Jesus came to bring back the lost sheep of Israel back to the true worship of God and to make the truth clear and that truth was the way to eternal life(salvation) and came with clear arguments and miracles.

It’s Guest Guest btw 

@tdawg626

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4 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

He just explained how to follow the law perfectly.... and it’s not that hard, its you who makes it hard. Read my other post

Oh ok, I thought it might have been you.  The writing seemed similar.  You made an account!

I agree with you that he is explaining the law how it is.  Actually, it is very hard.  The Bible tells us that no one is good and that all have fallen short of the glory of God.  I have never met a perfect person or someone that has not sinned.  Jesus says, "be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect." I don't know about you, but I can't relate to being perfect.  There were times when people couldn't handle Jesus' teachings and they deserted him.  At least in one case the disciples are told that a rich man can enter the kingdom of God because all things are possible with God.  But they were perplexed because Jesus was constantly showing how hard it was to fulfill the law.  I know we disagree with this, but we believe our sin stays with us forever unless it is washed away like Isaiah 1:18 says. “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool."

Isaiah Chapter 53 is all about the death of Jesus.  It's a prophecy and Paul was not even a thought in his parents' minds yet.  It was not just Paul who wrote about Jesus' death.  Jesus and the other N.T. writers wrote about it.  The sacrfice that Hosea is talking about is not about Jesus dying but rather about the people's hearts before God.  They took the sacrificial system and abused it in a sense.  God never desired the system to be simply a set of rules and regulations to complete and then go out and do evil.  It was a foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice but was to go hand in hand with mercy, love and justice.  The law was to lead the people to God but it became a stumbling block to many who took advantage of it.  Jews began to believe that all that made God happy was to just do his laws and that's it.  They were doing really bad things and making sacrifices at the same time.  That's not what God wanted.  He wanted their hearts and minds.  Jesus fulfills the law because instead of us being slaves to a law that was a "schoolmaster" (simply a set of rules that act like a mirror and show you where you went wrong," and could not save us, he comes as the God-man and completes the law perfectly like no man could ever do.  The law is still good.  It's not like God's law is now bad.  It was never bad but it could not save a person from hell, only show them where they went wrong.  Jesus becomes sin, a curse if you will, on our behalf and having done the law perfectly as a full human being, he dies on the cross, resurrects and offers us a gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10).  On the cross he said "it is finished."  He tells everyone who is "weary and heavy laden" to come to him for rest.  Rest from what? From the old covenant, the law and religion that could not save.  

5 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Mathew 5:17, jesus came to fulfil the Law and the prophets and James the just emphasis on following the law James 2:8-11, James 2:14, now since Jesus came to fulfil the law the prophets then jesus came to fulfil Hosea 6:6, sacrifices have been abrogated long ago so this whole idea of jesus being a sacrifice is a flawed argument and a paulin teaching. 

James also talks about the law.  

Ezekiel 36:26 New International Version (NIV)

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

What this verse prophecies is about a time when the old heart of stone would be removed and the Spirit of God would reside in a person, now bieng given a new heart...one that seeks after God.  James is talking to self proclaiming Christians who are being abusive to other.  Read what these people were doing.  So how can one proclaim to be a Christian and have a new heart if they go around doing all these bad things.  It makes no sense.  James is seeking to show the evidence of one's faith is good works.  If someone says they have faith in God yet does what these people were doing, you would question if they really had biblical faith in God.  Are they really a new person like 1 Corinthians 5:17 says? So James is showing that if you have faith, there will be a change and good works will follow.  Ephesians 2:8-10 demonstrates how one is saved, given a new heart and the Spirit of God, then is able to do what please God.  We cannot please God with our works before believing in Jesus and being made new.  

5 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Jesus came to bring back the lost sheep of Israel back to the true worship of God and to make the truth clear and that truth was the way to eternal life(salvation) and came with clear arguments and miracles.

Jesus started with the lost sheep of Israel Matthew 15:24 but he commissions his disciples to reach the world.  Isaiah 65:1 is one prophecy where we see God's heart for the world. 
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'

Again, I tell you this fully aware that you may not agree with interpretation or even the validity of our scriptures.  

 

God bless you and have a great day/night!

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2 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Isaiah Chapter 53

Isaiah 53 is about prophet Jeremiah their are nice articles regarding this and also the Christian bible terribly mistranslates some passages in Isaiah 53. 

 

Paul’s says in, Galatians 2:16 

16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

Romans 3:28

28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

 

James the just says  James 2:14-

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 

15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

And also James 2:8-11

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”  you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.”

Holding on to the commandments shows ur faith not testifying to one God alone but also obeying God otherwise your testimony is worthless if you aren’t obeying God’s commandments pretty much in hell. 

 

Ephesians 2:14-15

“14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.”

Paul obviously is implying that God’s Law brings hostility when obviously that is not the case otherwise God will be unjust and evil, that is blasphemy. Since Paul believes God’s Law brings hostility he go’s on by saying the law is pretty much abolished through Christ flesh(implying through his crucifixion).

 

Galatians 3:13

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us”

Again Paul is blaspheming God by saying His laws are a curse, God does not burden his servant nor does He put His servants  in a burden, Paul is pretty much implying that through Jesus’ crucifixion the Law was abolished.

 

Psalms 19:8 

“8The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.”

the Law is definitely not a burden nor a curse.

2 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'

Yes the disciples did go out to other countries to preach the message of Christ and revealed the true worship of God.

 

11 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

t was never bad but it could not save a person from hell, only show them where they went wrong. 

That means the previous prophets and ppl before Christ are in hell cos they didn’t receive Christ because the law couldn’t save them from hell..... I don’t understand why you neglect Mathew 5:17-20 jesus makes it clear that even if you neglect one of the Laws you will least in paradise, so it is crystal clear that you are DEPENDENT on Law in order to be saved. 

 

Hosea 6:6 is pretty general, very desperate attempt. 

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19 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Jesus says, "be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect." I don't know about you, but I can't relate to being perfect.

48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

you completely misunderstood this, after Jesus was explaing the law he was saying to be perfect meaning to be perfect regarding racism and mercy just as God is perfect in that area. You took this out of context to desperately runaway from the law and their is so much ephasis on practicing the law. 

Read my later post on jesus explaning  how to surpass the Pharisees. With my mini commentary. 

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On 5/4/2020 at 1:27 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The chapters say some quite radical stuff.  I would love to hear what people think about the ideas found there

there's definitely some radical stuff there, because I read that and I see one paragraph that doesn't fit with the rest, and within that paragraph I can narrow it down to one verse that doesn't fit and was likely added by someone with the agenda to make Jesus (عليه السلام) appear as God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but then immediately after that, it is contradicted and Jesus (عليه السلام) is likely referring to the Islamic Resurrection & Day of Judgment and what will happen to those who assign partners to God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Because Jesus (عليه السلام) is coming back with the last Imam and Matt 7:22-23 seem very clear about that

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On 5/31/2020 at 3:40 AM, Abdul-Hadi said:

Because Jesus (عليه السلام) is coming back with the last Imam and Matt 7:22-23 seem very clear about that

Abdul Hadi

Tha ks for mentioning these verses.  I'm not sure what bits you think have been inserted, but to understand verses 22-23 we need to look at the flow of the sermon. Here are the preceeding verses

The narrow and wide gates

13 ‘Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

True and false prophets

15 ‘Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognise them. Do people pick grapes from thorn-bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognise them.

True and false disciples

21 ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” 23 Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”

We can see that Jesus is teaching about the fact that in this life there are two types of people.  Those on the narrow way and those on the wide way.  Then there are those who say they are prophets but their lives, actions and words show that inside they are far from God.  It implies that there are some who say they are prophets and when we look at their lives their good actions and words bere out their claim.

Jesus is making it clear that the ultimate destination of these thwo groups is radically different.  One group end up in destruction and the other in life.

So we come to the verses you mention.  The two groups of people, on the last day of judgment, come to Jesus (by implication the judge) they both use the same words "Lord Lord", but Jesus, who knows the heart, can see which group these people are in.  The criteria is not miracals or great words or even calling Jesus Lord. The criteria is doing God the Father's will.

I'm not sure where the last imam fits in maybe you can explain that. 

However, I want to be among those who have found the narrow way, who produce good fruit and who do the Father's will.  May we all be found in that group.

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8 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

who have found the narrow way,

You are far from it friend. 

And here’s the context 

True and False followers

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Master, Master,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY LORD.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Master, Master, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

whats the Will of Jesus’ LORD? 

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”

Mathew 5:19-20 “19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the scribes, YOU WILL CERTAINTY  NOT ENTRE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.”

 

Mathew 7:13-14

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to [eternal] life, and only a few find it.

this is not within the context of false prophets and true ones. This about the true path, jesus said this because he knew their would be sects after him so he made he said this parable to to make it clear that the true followers of Christ would be in a small minority. In the early of the sermon he prophecies about his true followers being persecuted and killed,

Mathew 5:11-12

“11Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

Jesus also before he went to the heavens warned the disciples that they will also be persecuted and killed. This played a big role why the true followers of Christ didn’t flourish in the late 2nd century and in the 3rd century. 

The other sects simply hijacked the religion adding pagan teachings and theologies. The first corrupted sect that exsisted was Paul’s sect as I’ve already shown crystal clear Paul was a dualist. 

Acts 26:12-18

12“On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, a ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Paul claims to be appointed by Christ. Never has Christ appointed disciples by his own will, rather by God’s will, he always seeked God’s approval even after Judas betrayed Jesus the disciples prayed to God to appoint a disciple in his place, 

Acts 1:23-26 “23So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.”

So Paul claiming to be appointed by Christ is nothing but a lie and also he taught to follow another god beside God, this is blasphemy and dualism Deuteronomy 13 speaks of such false dreamers,

“1If a prophet, or ONE WHO FORETELLS BY DREAMS, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods”  and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.”

 

Now Jesus makes it clear that a person must do the will of the LORD to enter paradise, that’s what he commanded and Jesus emphasises so many times on adhereing to the Law. 

John 15:10 “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”

And the first commandment is affirming pure monotheism I’ve showed crystal clear verses regarding God yet you over look them, here’s what jesus has to say...

John 17:3-4 “3Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. 4I have brought You glory on earth by finishing the work You gave me to do.”

it is clear jesus was just a Messenger, breaking one commandment is as if you have broken all commandments what’s the point of putting the time when it’s all in vain...

James 2:8-11 “8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.”

Exodus 20:4 is pretty clear on the first commandment. 

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