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AkhiraisReal

Have Iran spoken against genocide of Uyghur Muslims

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58 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

they weren't allowed to travel to Uyghur region 

Then they did not know the condition of the Ughyurs.

59 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

in rest of allowed regions they don't find any reeducation  camps for Muslims .

Of course, there were no camps in the rest of China. 

That does nor mean there were no camps anywhere in China. 

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1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Ayatollah Sistani has a larger influence on Shias than any leader in the Iranian parliament. But strangely the silence of other marjas don't matter to Shias. Do we rush and start questioning their credibility as scholars? Do we start calling them hypocritical? If people want to target the Islamic Republic of Iran since they represent the wilayah and teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) then what about all our marjas who are silent? Why aren't we consistent with our words? It just makes me feel that many people on this thread aren't being true at all.

 

 

Your emotions are getting the best of you and it's getting ANNOYING. You just love playing the victim in literally every post you make. Did anyone on this thread ever call him hypocritical? Did I call him hypocritical? Can you not read my post? You just apologised for having an attitude and you're back at it again. 

2 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

would want him and other marjas to take a stance against any and all injustice

I'm not even the one who brought Ayatollah Sistani in this. Stop trying to insight trouble and fights wherever you go. Its getting old.

Edited by 2Timeless

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44 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Bruv, I think you misunderstood me. If Iran doesn't want to speak on China that is one thing, on the otherhand, to praise the human rights record of China is another thing when me and you both know China is an oppressive State to all religious people and especially Muslims.

Do you agree that praising their record is wrong? Yes or no.

It looks like other Muslims in China don't have so much problem (however there had been a movement for change the architecture of the mosques and making them more chinese and eradicating Arabic scripts). I have some friends who lived in China and globally they didn't face so much problems for practicing Islam and could meet easily some chinese Muslims (hui) in mosques and halal shop without si much problems. 

As for the Uyghurs I guess iranian government maybe think more or less the same thing than me. But because Iran is already in a bad situation they want to be sure that China will not forget them. 

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On 1/14/2020 at 10:08 AM, Soldiers and Saffron said:

As I said, It is arguable whether or not they support and condone injustice,

There's nothing arguable about the letter of support signed by the Iranian ambassador to the UN along with the other supporters of Chinese oppression.

Quote

I don’t think Iran has enganged in doing polar opposite of the teachings of Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام), saying so would be quite an extreme thing to say to be honest.

What's the polar opposite of justice? 

Injusitce.

Which is China's treatment of it's Muslims. The same treatment supported and condoned by someone claiming to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) 

Quote

Again, I never mentioned you, nor tagged you, nor hinted towards you, but if you want to take it to heart as a personal "insult" then that is up to you, if you can’t relate to that then move on, unless you wish to disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing.

Your insult is taken to heart and personally by everyone who stands against injustice which is what China is doing to its Muslims. 

Quote

And as I said before, you are more than welcomed to PM your number and I can call you so we can talk in private about whatever differences we have. Though I don’t think you will ever pick up on that offer in a million years.

Thank you for the kind and repeated offer but I don't exchange numbers this early in a relationship lol 

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20 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

You would rather put the lives of 80 million people in misery vs potentially not(condoning wont guarentee china stops oppressing) putting the lives of 12 million people in misery?

Supporting and condoning oppression is injusitce. 

Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) would never agree to support and condone oppression. 

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And to the apologists using the 'this million suffering vs that million suffering' argument, It's a purely self interest argument. It's not based on Islamic principles because Islam teaches us to take a stand against injustice, not sign a letter supporting it whilst claiming we represent Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) 

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Guest Observer

After reading this and the other thread I am convinced that Iran apologists are the Madkhalis of the Shia. Just as the Madkhali will defend and rationalize absolutely anything oppressive Arab dictators though so will these Iran apologists with Iran, having a conversation with either is a waste of time. 

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3 hours ago, Moalfas said:

Supporting and condoning oppression is injusitce. 

Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) would never agree to support and condone oppression. 

You are very right , this world only works in black and white, any other person that works in the grey areas and accepts any other solutions then extreeme measures is insane and is doing kuffur. Oh wait im starting to sound like daesh...

The point was very clear, they can fake their support(they need that support to counter sanctions) for china (taqquiya) and save more people or they can attempt to save less people(not guarentee to work) and harm a lot more people by going against china.

Anyone with common sense would choose to save more people.You need to realise that this world is not black and white, you are sometimes going to need to do some ugly things in order to acheive the good.Also there is nothing selfish about saving your own people more then others, it is a natural tendency to help our own first. I mean let me ask you a question, would you rather choose between your mother being killed or a random dude whom you have no idea if they are good or bad?

Infact even the Qur'an talks about stuff like this, for example it mentions that if you are forced to eat pig meat then you should eat it as your life is more important, obviously eating pig meat is haram but sometimes you need to do something called "choosing between the lesser evil", you are going to have to commit evil acts in order to achieve the greater good, it is a sad reality but there is no other way around it.

Even with a common sense argument , you still refuse to accept it because from what I saw in your other posts , you despise Iran, we get it you absolutley hate Iran, but that shouldn't be the reason why you should accept every bloody argument against the country even if it makes no sense.

Edited by HusseinAbbas

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9 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

I don’t know much about what his political role is, but of course I would want him and other marjas to take a stance against any and all injustice. Iran, as an Islamic country (just like Iraq) should also express its stance on what's happening in China because it is based on Islamic values first and foremost, before any other political values and interests. This isnt 'bashing' Iran or any country, it's a simple suggestion. 

:salam:

Thanks for clarifying your position because before that it felt as you guys,  recognized Iran as the leading country for political affairs of the Ummah, even though you are not pro WF.

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3 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Thanks for clarifying your position because before that it felt as you guys,  recognized Iran as the leading country for political affairs of the Ummah, even though you are not pro WF.

I don’t know who you mean by 'you guys' but I'm not necessarily 'not pro WF' I'm just not very knowledgeable on the whole issue and am still quite unsure, but I don’t think its accurate to say that I recognised Iran as the leading country for political affairs of the whole ummah. 

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15 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Its getting old.

This is what you said in the other thread.

"but you exempt the Iranian government from expressing their own disdain over what's happening in China because.".

When did I directly support their silence? I don't like being accused and I find it very offensive.

Anyway, I apologise. We'll end it here. 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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Quote

The point was very clear, they can fake their support(they need that support to counter sanctions) for china (taqquiya) and save more people or they can attempt to save less people(not guarentee to work) and harm a lot more people by going against china.

I don't know how far people can go with this. Really taqiyyah can be apply to country? Iran should have fake with every enemy, with Isreal, Us and all other opressers and call it taqiyyah.

Edited by Abu Nur

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17 hours ago, baqar said:

Then they did not know the condition of the Ughyurs.

Of course, there were no camps in the rest of China. 

That does nor mean there were no camps anywhere in China. 

Salam anyway Iranian politicians & scholars have different agendas in china that their only cooperation happens in time of arriving to China & leaving it to Iran but inside china they follow different agendas that are completely seperate from each other so presence of scholars are just limited to certain regions that Chinese government  allowed to visit & politicians just rely on documents from Chinese authorities so both groups  don't have  any cooperation with each other. 

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On 1/14/2020 at 12:20 AM, Guest non_apologist_rafidha said:

but they don't have guts to say anything to brutal, oppressive, atheist China, because they are allies with them. Hypocrisy much? Are there anybody left who buys cheap iranian propaganda? After all these events? "Islamic" Iran is and always was a disgrace to Islam.

@2Timeless  @Moalfas @Soldiers and Saffron @realizm @realizm @Diaz @baqar @Ashvazdanghe

This comment is an example of people who are willing to call Iran and their leaders hypocrite but they'll remain silent when influential marjas remain silent. A perfect example of a comment where one lets out his frustration to bash Iran rather than making a general statement such as - "All Shia leaders need to speak up..."

Now I bet no one would dare to say "disgrace to Islam" to all the other marjas who are silent. I'm sure as believers we would try to investigate the issue more and see both side of the arguments. We might even go talk to the representatives of the marja to understand their silence.  However, no one has the patience when it comes to the Iranianan Supreme leader. I've seen it too much and it's beyond disgusting. 

It goes to show that people have no patience to understand the situation properly. It's all due to our personal hatred against certain groups. That's exactly what the West want and I'm seeing it when these guest users hide behind a computer screen and post such stuff. 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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46 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@2Timeless  @Moalfas @Soldiers and Saffron @realizm @realizm @Diaz @baqar @Ashvazdanghe

This comment is an example of people who are willing to call Iran and their leaders hypocrite but they'll remain silent when influential marjas remain silent. A perfect example of a comment where one lets out his frustration to bash Iran rather than making a general statement such as - "All Shia leaders need to speak up..."

Now I bet no one would dare to say "disgrace to Islam" to all the other marjas who are silent. I'm sure as believers we would try to investigate the issue more and see both side of the arguments. We might even go talk to the representatives of the marja to understand their silence.  However, no one has the patience when it comes to the Iranianan Supreme leader. I've seen it too much and it's beyond disgusting. 

It goes to show that people have no patience to understand the situation properly. It's all due to our personal hatred against certain groups. That's exactly what the West want and I'm seeing it when these guest users hide behind a computer screen and post such stuff. 

:salam:

Not to mention that such individuals strangely take interest in the problems of Sunnis when it is convenient to them, rest of the time bashing ordinary Sunnis for their deviant, mother-of-terrorism belief.

 

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4 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

This comment is an example of people who are willing to call Iran and their leaders hypocrite but they'll remain silent when influential marjas remain silent.

Why are you tagging us? Again, did either of us call Iran or any marja a hypocrite or disgrace to Islam? You keep trying to come up with some sort of plausible argument but there is none. Most people here are adamant Sistani followers and pro WF. The guy you quoted is most likely already banned. For the thousandth time, stop generalizing. 

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7 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

When did I directly support their silence? I don't like being accused and I find it very offensive.

Exempt does not mean support bhai. It means you just don’t shame them the way you shamed and practically bullied the whole world in your post. 

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On 1/15/2020 at 7:16 PM, HusseinAbbas said:

You are very right ,

:) 

Quote

this world only works in black and white, any other person that works in the grey areas and accepts any other solutions then extreeme measures is insane and is doing kuffur. Oh wait im starting to sound like daesh...

There's no grey area in supporting oppression. Haqq is taking a stand against it or remaining silent. Baatil is supporting and condoning it. 

 

Quote

Anyone with common sense would choose to save more people.

Supporting injusitce for the benefit of your group of people goes against the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

Quote

Also there is nothing selfish about saving your own people more then others,

It is VERY selfish because Islam teaches us that we're all equal brothers and we should all want the best for others before ourselves. 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم 

و يؤثرون على أنفسهم و لو كان بهم خصاصة 

59/9

 

Quote

Infact even the Qur'an talks about stuff like this, for example it mentions that if you are forced to eat pig meat then you should eat it as your life is more important, obviously eating pig meat is haram

By eating Haram meat, you will be committing injusitce against yourself only not on others. Totally different. 

 

Quote

but sometimes you need to do something called "choosing between the lesser evil", you are going to have to commit evil acts in order to achieve the greater good, it is a sad reality but there is no other way around it.

The sad reality is that It's unislamic. Fullstop. Anyone seeking reality can see Haqq from Baatil. 

 

Quote

because from what I saw in your other posts , you despise Iran, we get it you absolutley hate Iran, but that shouldn't be the reason why you should accept every bloody argument against the country even if it makes no sense.

حال شما خوبي؟ :) 

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@realizm @ali_fatheroforphans

The reason the issue is focused on Iran is because it presents itself as leader of the Shia faith and a representative of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) as well as the idea that they will eventually pass on the flag to the Imam AJF. 

The reson other Maraje aren't held to such standards is because they aren't presenting themselves as running an 'Islamic' jurisdiction that's setting the foundations for the Imam (AJF). 

Now I'm sure everyone can agree that such very weighty notions need to be held to extremely high standards. 

Finally, regarding the 'hate', other than the odd 'hateful' comment here and there, the majority of the insults, derogatory labels and 'hatred' is directed at, and is against the ones who are vocal about certain Iran related issues.

It would be much more productive if no one used hateful or offensive language as that way, we'd have a better chance at constructive dialogue. 

 

Edited by Moalfas
Typo

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2 hours ago, Moalfas said:

:) 

There's no grey area in supporting oppression. Haqq is taking a stand against it or remaining silent. Baatil is supporting and condoning it. 

 

Supporting injusitce for the benefit of your group of people goes against the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

It is VERY selfish because Islam teaches us that we're all equal brothers and we should all want the best for others before ourselves. 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم 

و يؤثرون على أنفسهم و لو كان بهم خصاصة 

59/9

 

By eating Haram meat, you will be committing injusitce against yourself only not on others. Totally different. 

 

The sad reality is that It's unislamic. Fullstop. Anyone seeking reality can see Haqq from Baatil. 

 

حال شما خوبي؟ :) 

Choosing to save more people instead of saving less people is against Islam? 

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Guest non_apologist_rafidha
On 1/16/2020 at 12:06 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@2Timeless  @Moalfas @Soldiers and Saffron @realizm @realizm @Diaz @baqar @Ashvazdanghe

This comment is an example of people who are willing to call Iran and their leaders hypocrite but they'll remain silent when influential marjas remain silent. A perfect example of a comment where one lets out his frustration to bash Iran rather than making a general statement such as - "All Shia leaders need to speak up..."

Now I bet no one would dare to say "disgrace to Islam" to all the other marjas who are silent. I'm sure as believers we would try to investigate the issue more and see both side of the arguments. We might even go talk to the representatives of the marja to understand their silence.  However, no one has the patience when it comes to the Iranianan Supreme leader. I've seen it too much and it's beyond disgusting. 

It goes to show that people have no patience to understand the situation properly. It's all due to our personal hatred against certain groups. That's exactly what the West want and I'm seeing it when these guest users hide behind a computer screen and post such stuff. 

If Iran didn't act like the ONLY representatives of Shias, and didn't act like khamanei is the ONLY legitimate leader that Shias must bow, and if they didn't chant "Death to those who oppose Wilayati Faqeh" every chance they get, you may have had a valid point.

Most important reason people bashing Iran's hypocrite regime is, they call themselves as ultimate authority, I'm pretty sure almost everyone here have seen people believe in wilayat of Khomeini and khamanei as they believe in wilayat of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).), and many many consider these two as MASOOMS, infallible. Whenever someone criticizes Iran, the "supreme leader", he/she is either an zionist or MI6 agent. What kind of a sick twisted mindset is this?

People are done with hypocrisy of Iran. Iran is a brutal, oppressive regime that has nothing to do with the teachings of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).), as it is getting more obvious day by day. It was like this from the first day it was established. Recently, representative of khamanei said in a speech, "British ambassador must be slayed", just because he attended to the memorial of downed Ukranian plane. Basij militas killing unarmed women, children, men in streets, since the beginning just because people voice their opinion. Recently they killed over 1500 protestors in Iran, more then 500 in Iraq. How is this justified from the viewpoint of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).)?

Iran tries to "export" its revolution wherever it goes, they tried to colonize Iraq, they push everyone to act like militas in the cause of Wilayat Faqeh, they try to marginalize, militiate everyone. Just like Sunni armed terror groups. They portray a criminal, vile face to world, contributing Islamophobia. However when it comes to Sunnis, strangely they defend them and try to be kind to them, opposite of what they do to Shias.

And another strange thing, when they chant "Death to those who oppose Wilayati Faqeh" (marg bar zeddi wilayate faqeh), what about their Sunni "brothers"? Should them be dead too, cause I don't think any Sunni would accept the wilayat of khamanei, they don't even know about wilayat of Ahlul Bayt.

Iran is tabarra deficient, and as a Shia I view Iran as the modern day Abbasids. I hope their end is soon.

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On 1/14/2020 at 12:01 PM, Cyrax said:

Two main problems with your line of thinking:

1) Criticizing someone doesn't mean you want to go to war with them or that you even want anything bad to happen to them.  I am, as an example, constantly criticizing the horrible crimes committed by the Saudis against the Yemeni people and have donated as much as I can to the cause, but I don't want to go to war with Saudi.  I am constantly criticizing the sanctions placed on countries like Iran that causes needless suffering, and that doesn't mean I want go to war with the US. 'll give you one better, here is a list of countries criticizing China's policy towards the Uighur people:

Who said anything about war? Your the first one to mention it.

The fact that your mentioning a list of European countries who criticised China and asking why Iran did not do it too just tells me that you are very unaware of the differences of the countries relationship to China in terms of trade and current dependency. 

One of the conditions of amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar is that it will be listened to, Iran critisizng China for what the west says that China is doing, will not result in ANY difference whatsoever for whoever is allegedly oppressed in China. However it would VERY likely change the relationship of the two countries and with the US pressure on China to drop Irans oil trade (which is the last one Iran has pretty much due to US sanctions) that change in relationship could be what makes the differences. If that happened at this moment then 80 milion Shias (and I know Shias don’t mean anything special to you) would greatly suffer and the republic of Iran would most likely come to an end, further weakening the wellfare of the Shias globally as well as their dawah (again I know you don’t care about that, most likely you would be happy).

On 1/14/2020 at 12:01 PM, Cyrax said:

2) Iran has actually SUPPORTED the Chinese policy against the Uighur people, so its not simply an issue of being quite against injustice, they are actually openly supporting it

You are talking about the situation as if you are the holder of absolute and undeniable truth and questioning the western narrative spoon fed to us is completely out of the question. The truth however is that you don’t know anything about what is going on in China.

And the only thing you do know, or what you are convinced that you know, is what the west has told you. And I don't trust their media especially when they are telling me about a supposed situation of which they in other cases are perfectly fine being silent with.

I beg to ask you how much you read about the domestic politics of China on a day to day basis, how well versed are you in its internal affairs generally? Or most likely, is it not so that you don’t know the first thing about it and before the last 12 months you didnt even know there was a group of people in China called the Uyghurs?

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5 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Who said anything about war? Your the first one to mention it.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I apologize, I thought when you said "confrontations" and "taking actions against" that you meant going to war.  So if it doesn't mean war, then why is it so hard to speak out against China?

6 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

The fact that your mentioning a list of European countries who criticised China and asking why Iran did not do it too just tells me that you are very unaware of the differences of the countries relationship to China in terms of trade and current dependency. 

If the fear is that if Iran speaks out against China then China will respond by cutting off trade to Iran, then why doesn't Iran try to also come to terms with the US in order to lift the trade sanctions?  The irony, of course, is that one of the reasons the US imposes sanctions against Iran is because of their "support for terrorism", the same justification the Chinese government for doing what its doing to the Uyghur people.

6 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

One of the conditions of amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar is that it will be listened to, Iran critisizng China for what the west says that China is doing, will not result in ANY difference whatsoever for whoever is allegedly oppressed in China. However it would VERY likely change the relationship of the two countries and with the US pressure on China to drop Irans oil trade (which is the last one Iran has pretty much due to US sanctions) that change in relationship could be what makes the differences. If that happened at this moment then 80 milion Shias (and I know Shias don’t mean anything special to you) would greatly suffer and the republic of Iran would most likely come to an end, further weakening the wellfare of the Shias globally as well as their dawah (again I know you don’t care about that, most likely you would be happy).

1) It is not the only the "West" that is saying that, it is the Uyghur people that are saying it.  In reality, there is so much evidence to what is going on, that I am appalled by your attempt to white wash this and pretend like its some how the "West" who is only saying this.  There are also countries such as Saudi and the UAE who say nothing is going on.  The Uyghur people on the other hand, said a very different thing.

2) Implying that I don't care about the people of Iran and the Shi'a people in general is a bunch of hogwash.  I think the sanctions against Iran are a horrible practice of punishing the whole for the crimes of a few.  I hate what is happening to Iran and speak out against it.  In fact, if you go back to my original post, I mentioned how I speak out against the Saudis war crimes in Yemen and how I send money to the Yemeni people despite the fact, that as far as I know, they are most Shi'a.

3) The only Muslims that "don't mean anything special" to anyone are the Uyghur people to you, who you are quick to turn a blind eye to the crimes committed against them.

6 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

You are talking about the situation as if you are the holder of absolute and undeniable truth and questioning the western narrative spoon fed to us is completely out of the question. The truth however is that you don’t know anything about what is going on in China.

And the only thing you do know, or what you are convinced that you know, is what the west has told you. And I don't trust their media especially when they are telling me about a supposed situation of which they in other cases are perfectly fine being silent with.

What I have been told has been told to me by the Uyghur people, but maybe they are all Western puppets who are want the downfall of China.

The reality is, I am much more likely to trust the collective "West" than I am to trust the government of China.  The collective "West" has show itself to be far more just and open than the oppressive Chinese government.  When it comes to the collective "West" versus the Chinese government, the Saudis, and the UAE (and Iran), I'm going to take the collective "West"s narrative any day of the week.  Sorry.

6 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I beg to ask you how much you read about the domestic politics of China on a day to day basis, how well versed are you in its internal affairs generally? Or most likely, is it not so that you don’t know the first thing about it and before the last 12 months you didnt even know there was a group of people in China called the Uyghurs?

How much do you suppose I need to read and how long did I need to know about the Uyghur people before I am able to call out the hypocritical position of the UAE, Saudi (and Iran) regarding the Uyghur people.  If I told you I learned about the Uyghur people 13 months ago, would that be enough?

The Uyghur people are getting oppressed on some level (no matter how much you want to deny it) and the UAE, Saudi (and Iran) are all, not only staying quite, but are in fact OPENLY SUPPORTING THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.  You can justify that to yourself as much as you want, I'm just going to always side with the people against these oppressive governments.  Sorry

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19 hours ago, Cyrax said:

If the fear is that if Iran speaks out against China then China will respond by cutting off trade to Iran, then why doesn't Iran try to also come to terms with the US in order to lift the trade sanctions?  The irony, of course, is that one of the reasons the US imposes sanctions against Iran is because of their "support for terrorism", the same justification the Chinese government for doing what its doing to the Uyghur people.

Because the US is sponsoring and feeding the division of the Muslim ummah, not China, and as long as the ummah is not united, we wont have power to do much, the Saudis and I believe all Sunni countries are ruled by western lap dogs who couldnt care less about Islam.

As long as their leaders are these kind of people, a unity in the ummah will not be able to be achieved. Unite the ummah and no country will be able to oppress Muslims in any place of the world without having to face real consequences. Such as geological blockades of trading routes and general trade sanctions.

Furthermore we could have a single currency between Muslim nations and have a system similarly to the EU and a military union similar to the Nato. Non of that will be possible so long as the provider and feeder of division is not stopped.

19 hours ago, Cyrax said:

1) It is not the only the "West" that is saying that, it is the Uyghur people that are saying it.  In reality, there is so much evidence to what is going on, that I am appalled by your attempt to white wash this and pretend like its some how the "West" who is only saying this.  There are also countries such as Saudi and the UAE who say nothing is going on.  The Uyghur people on the other hand, said a very different thing.

2) Implying that I don't care about the people of Iran and the Shi'a people in general is a bunch of hogwash.  I think the sanctions against Iran are a horrible practice of punishing the whole for the crimes of a few.  I hate what is happening to Iran and speak out against it.  In fact, if you go back to my original post, I mentioned how I speak out against the Saudis war crimes in Yemen and how I send money to the Yemeni people despite the fact, that as far as I know, they are most Shi'a.

3) The only Muslims that "don't mean anything special" to anyone are the Uyghur people to you, who you are quick to turn a blind eye to the crimes committed against them.

That is okay that you are appalled by hearing a different persons view point, but it would be better if you accepted that not all people view the world in the same light as yourself instead.

I am not turning a blind eye, as you can see I am here discussing them, rather I am questioning the information feed and that is a good thing to do, especially given the circumstances. Is it so chocking that not everyone accepts the same information sources as yourself as total proof?

19 hours ago, Cyrax said:

How much do you suppose I need to read and how long did I need to know about the Uyghur people before I am able to call out the hypocritical position of the UAE, Saudi (and Iran) regarding the Uyghur people.  If I told you I learned about the Uyghur people 13 months ago, would that be enough?

The Uyghur people are getting oppressed on some level (no matter how much you want to deny it) and the UAE, Saudi (and Iran) are all, not only staying quite, but are in fact OPENLY SUPPORTING THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.  You can justify that to yourself as much as you want, I'm just going to always side with the people against these oppressive governments.  Sorry

You are surprised that religious people are getting oppressed in a communist country? 

I am not surprised by that at all, same as we get oppressed to different degrees in western secularized countries (upcoming hijab ban for children in my country), though I question to what degree it is done in China, I could personally not see any "particular" oppression of Muslims while I was in China. Do you believe the case is different from area to area inside of China?

Until I have personally not gathered enough information from objective sources about what is going on, I will not jump on some kind of a emotional bandwagon or a moral crusade to condemn China to hell. I believe in the hikmah of seyyed Khamenei as well as the other major marjas and that they are righteous Muslims with much more information than myself on this subject, I understand if you can’t relate to that. In fact several of the Shias who seemingly seem to care a lot about the alleged grave situations of the Uyghurs in China are ironically enough also the Shias who are usually against helping the Palestinians against their world wide proven oppression from the zionist entity, because they say that they don’t like us, so why should we help them? But in this case since its a chance to criticize Iran...

Lastly if you are true to your words, that your always going to side with the people against oppressive governments, then I suggest you revisit Islamic history, namely the history of Hussein ibn Ali(عليه السلام), surely you should side with him.

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52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Because the US is sponsoring and feeding the division of the Muslim ummah, not China, and as long as the ummah is not united, we wont have power to do much, the Saudis and I believe all Sunni countries are ruled by western lap dogs who couldnt care less about Islam.

As long as their leaders are these kind of people, a unity in the ummah will not be able to be achieved. Unite the ummah and no country will be able to oppress Muslims in any place of the world without having to face real consequences. Such as geological blockades of trading routes and general trade sanctions.

Furthermore we could have a single currency between Muslim nations and have a system similarly to the EU and a military union similar to the Nato. Non of that will be possible so long as the provider and feeder of division is not stopped.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

So because the US "is sponsoring and feeding the division of the Muslim ummah" and "not China" it is ok to for Iran, Saudi and the UAE to support the crimes China commits against Muslims?  I'm not sure what the rest of the post has to do with the topic at hand...

52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

That is okay that you are appalled by hearing a different persons view point, but it would be better if you accepted that not all people view the world in the same light as yourself instead.

I actually said, "In reality, there is so much evidence to what is going on, that I am appalled by your attempt to white wash this and pretend like its some how the "West" who is only saying this."  The fact that you take the testimony of the Chinese government over the testimony of your Uyghuir Muslim brothers and sisters is what appalls me, بارك الله فيك.  I've noticed that you completely overlooked my appeal to their testimony.

52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I am not turning a blind eye, as you can see I am here discussing them, rather I am questioning the information feed and that is a good thing to do, especially given the circumstances. Is it so chocking that not everyone accepts the same information sources as yourself as total proof?

It is shocking that anyone would trust the Chinese government, yes.

52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

You are surprised that religious people are getting oppressed in a communist country? 

No of course I'm not, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of our Islamic governments, أحسن الله إليك.  At least you are at least admitting there is some level of oppression against Muslims there.

52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Do you believe the case is different from area to area inside of China?

Yes of course, akhi, the situation is different for the Ughuir Muslims in the Xinjiang region.  My understand is that Han Muslims don't have those same problems.

52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Until I have personally not gathered enough information from objective sources about what is going on, I will not jump on some kind of a emotional bandwagon or a moral crusade to condemn China to hell. I believe in the hikmah of seyyed Khamenei as well as the other major marjas and that they are righteous Muslims with much more information than myself on this subject, I understand if you can’t relate to that. In fact several of the Shias who seemingly seem to care a lot about the alleged grave situations of the Uyghurs in China are ironically enough also the Shias who are usually against helping the Palestinians against their world wide proven oppression from the zionist entity, because they say that they don’t like us, so why should we help them? But in this case since its a chance to criticize Iran...

Well, if you have not gathered enough information, then why are you speaking about this subject?  Those of us that have known about this issue for more than 12 months feel there is more than enough evidence to condemn the Chinese government for their treatment of the Uyughir people.  In addition, I certainly don't share your view regarding MBS, MBZ or Khamenei or do I think they are wise or have the Muslim Ummah in their best interest.

As far as the intra-12er divisions between the different Maraji'3, and their hypocritical positions towards things, then I'd definitely say that I think Sistani is a more principled man than Khamenie and is far more consistent.  But my opinion doesn't matter.

52 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Lastly if you are true to your words, that your always going to side with the people against oppressive governments, then I suggest you revisit Islamic history, namely the history of Hussein ibn Ali(عليه السلام), surely you should side with him.

Of course I would side by him, who wouldn't?  Did you ever hear the statement of Ahmad bin Hanbal?

Quote

Saalih ibn Ahmad said: I said to my father, some people say that they love Yazeed. He said, O my son, does anyone love Yazeed who believes in Allaah and the Last Day? I said, O my father, why do you not curse him? He said, O my son, when did you ever see your father curse anybody?

I'm not sure there is a Muslim alive today that would side with Yazeed over Sayyid Shabab Ahl al-Jannah al Hussayn عليه السلام.  If one exists, I dissociate with him and strongly oppose his position

Edited by Cyrax

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23 hours ago, Moalfas said:

The reason the issue is focused on Iran is because it presents itself as leader of the Shia faith and a representative of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

You can't separate politics and Islam. Even our maraja need to have a stance when it comes to politics and the affairs of the Muslims. Islam doesn't tell us to just seek knowledge and do our obligatory duties. Every Muslim needs to have a stance against oppression, otherwise we've failed to understand the message of Islam. It's not relevant whether a particular  nation claims to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or paves a path for the return of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام). Our marajas and scholars (especially those influential ones) should be aware of the oppression that's happening around the world. It's a Hussaini attitude to have in life and that's what Islam wants from us. Even our Imams (عليه السلام) who weren't ruling nations would represent Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through their words and actions. Likewise our scholars still represent the Shia faith. We should turn to them for guidance not only in Fiqhi issues, but also their stance o in regards to world issues. Relating Islam to the contemporary issues is a must. It's a tragedy how everyone only relies on Iran to take a stand against oppression. Indeed, Iran took a stand against oppression on many occasions (not that anyone cares). When everyone was silent who took a stand against the oppression and violence in Kashmir? The answer is - Iran! 

Again, Ayatollah Sistani does speak on political issues. When ISIS was a real threat to Muslims (everyone to be honest), Sistani said that the fight against ISIS is the whole world's battle. It was good because many non Muslims do consider him to represent all Shias and he gave a very powerful statement implying - ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.

Now when it comes to the oppression that's happening in China, you will find 10000 excuses to explain the silence of our maraja. You'll all be like "ahh it's not their job", "they don't have the proper information" , "this issue isn't relevant to Shias as of yet", "they aren't sure about what's happening in China". The list continues and you'll find justifications. Well my friend, that's very hypocritical of us. This thread in itself is more of an attack on Iran rather than everyone trying to understand what's actually happening in China. There's clearly two sides and we must continue to speak against oppression if we feel that Muslims are being treated the way it's shown on the media. It's a safe option to assume oppression is happening and we should continue to investigate the matter. 

But don't rush to attack Iran based on the information you feel is correct. Iran makes strong and bold statements when there's evidence. Who knows maybe they are trying to gather information? Don't just assume they are being selfish cause of their relationship with China. We need to all have sabr. 

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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13 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

You can't separate politics and Islam. Even our maraja need to have a stance when it comes to politics and the affairs of the Muslims. Islam doesn't tell us to just seek knowledge and do our obligatory duties. Every Muslim needs to have a stance against oppression, otherwise we've failed to understand the message of Islam.

I mostly agree. 

13 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

It's not relevant whether a particular  nation claims to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or paves a path for the return of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).

It's actually vey relevant because one cannot claim to represent the path of Haqq whilst condoning injustice at the same time.

 

13 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Our marajas and scholars (especially those influential ones) should be aware of the oppression that's happening around the world. It's a Hussaini attitude to have in life and that's what Islam wants from us.

This is exactly what everyone speaking up against Chinese oppression is doing.

13 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

 It's a tragedy how everyone only relies on Iran to take a stand against oppression.

That's not the case here at all. The case is someone who presents themselves as representatives of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) condoning and supporting injusitce. 

 

13 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Indeed, Iran took a stand against oppression on many occasions (not that anyone cares).

I, for one have always and will always speak highly of Iran's admirable stand and support against the Zionist occupation for instance. Also, their support for Iraqis in fighting daesh. But this does not make it right to support and condone injusitce in China. 

 

13 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Now when it comes to the oppression that's happening in China, you will find 10000 excuses to explain the silence of our maraja. You'll all be like "ahh it's not their job", "they don't have the proper information" , "this issue isn't relevant to Shias as of yet", "they aren't sure about what's happening in China". The list continues and you'll find justifications. Well my friend, that's very hypocritical of us.

The 10000 excuses are, by and large, people trying to justify Iran's support of Chinese oppression (whatever extent the reality of the oppression may be) as this thread clearly demonstrates. And yes I agree, it is very hypocritical. 

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21 minutes ago, ShiaChat Mod said:

This is an intense discussion here.

My question, should everything be said immediately and reflexively, or is there always a time and place?

 

 Indeed, it is intense. It's certainly everyone's  Wajib to point out injusitce without derogatory or divisive labelling. 

Having said that, the arguments presented here seem to be repetitive and going around in circles, so if mods think it's best to lock the thread, I would concur. 

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4 hours ago, ShiaChat Mod said:

This is an intense discussion here.

My question, should everything be said immediately and reflexively, or is there always a time and place?

 

No! NOW! Iran SHOULD ASSAULT CHINA DIPLOMATICALLY RIGHT NOWWWWW!!!!! I WANT THEM TO LOSE THEIR ALLY AND HELP TAGHOOT OVERCOME Iran!

67587590_878704269167143_8546097982523572224_n.jpg.31fbb1f360eed8542edba349aed27ae7.jpg

P.S.: I know Iran condemning something fictional will not change the piece of fiction. But I want them to voice it! I want YOU to voice it as much as you can. SPAM THE WHOLE INTERWEBS condemning all injustice. The Ahl al Bayt love it when we spam the internet with our condemnations and spamming the internet with our condemnations from the security and comfort of our couches fulfills our obligations as the 313 Shia who tolerate no injustice anywhere in the galaxy!!

Edited by The Green Knight

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Guest Zeratul

Khamanei (may God protect him and the believers with him) never claimed to represent the truth nor that the Islam they practice to be the true Islam.  He even said "we can't say we represent Islam but we can say our spirit is Islamic (submissive to God)".

As for China, if we lose their support, the sanctions will be too hard, for China is investing and loaning to counter influence of sanctions.  

That said, I don't know what is really happening there as Western Media has proven to be liars time and time again.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

No! NOW! Iran SHOULD ASSAULT CHINA DIPLOMATICALLY RIGHT NOWWWWW!!!!! I WANT THEM TO LOSE THEIR ALLY AND HELP TAGHOOT OVERCOME Iran!

67587590_878704269167143_8546097982523572224_n.jpg.31fbb1f360eed8542edba349aed27ae7.jpg

P.S.: I know Iran condemning something fictional will not change the piece of fiction. But I want them to voice it! I want YOU to voice it as much as you can. SPAM THE WHOLE INTERWEBS condemning all injustice. The Ahl al Bayt love it when we spam the internet with our condemnations and spamming the internet with our condemnations from the security and comfort of our couches fulfills our obligations as the 313 Shia who tolerate no injustice anywhere in the galaxy!!

An argument based on sarcastic mockery whilst making fun of the way one of Allah's creations looks like because he's Wahabi. 

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On 1/18/2020 at 9:51 AM, Moalfas said:

 Indeed, it is intense. It's certainly everyone's  Wajib to point out injusitce without derogatory or divisive labelling. 

Having said that, the arguments presented here seem to be repetitive and going around in circles, so if mods think it's best to lock the thread, I would concur. 

You didn’t answer my initial question though, about whether there’s a right time and place to “speak out”.

Some people think the Imams (a) should have been more vocal and fought the rulers of their time, echoing the sentiments shared here about  always standing up to injustice. Yet different approaches were done based on circumstance, sometimes contrary to what people assumed was the correct thing to do. Perhaps there was a hikmah that wasn’t and still isn’t understood.

Just asking. If others also think this thread isn’t productive, we can close it. Let’s see what others say.

 

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