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AkhiraisReal

Have Iran spoken against genocide of Uyghur Muslims

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What I find ironic is how the people who have the highest expectations of Iran are also the people who are the greatest critics of Iran. May God save yourselves from your sick hearts.

Edited by Soldiers and Saffron

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6 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

What I find ironic is how the people who have the highest expectations of Iran are also the people who are the greatest critics of Iran. May God save yourselves from your sick hearts.

Often the same persons who say that Iran must not care about internal affairs of their country....

Edited by Mohammadi_follower

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Just now, Mohammadi_follower said:

Often the same persons who say that Iran must not care about internal affairs of their country....

There is no reasonable continuity in their arguments because their arguments are not based on reason, rather hatred so reality will be whatever is suitable for the moment to further their understanding of the world view that they in their hatred have convinced themselves to be unquestionably true.

And what I have further come to realize is that usually the people who are often the loudest when they are not facing the person they are talking to face to face are usually the ones who are the quietest when doing so. Even further than that, many of those who display extremes online are usually completely different in person, as if they have a private "Muslim life" and a "I'm just living my life" life in public.

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12 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

What I find ironic is how the people who have the highest expectations of Iran are also the people who are the greatest critics of Iran. May God save yourselves from your sick hearts.

If one claims to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) they ought to be held to the highest of standards. 

Supporting, condoning and making excuses for oppression is a sign of a sick heart. 

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2 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

If one claims to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) they ought to be held to the highest of standards. 

Supporting, condoning and making excuses for oppression is a sign of a sick heart. 

I think you would be criticizing them regardless whatever they said and did and most often your ciritice lacks any understanding for the reality of the world.

You want Iran to fight the west and the east at the same time on its own, while you in other instances say that you want Iran not to intervene in other countries policies at the same time.

If you think I have a sick heart, then pray for me and I will in return pray for you.

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4 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I think you would be criticizing them regardless whatever they said and did and most often your ciritice lacks any understanding for the reality of the world.

Please provide evidence for my 'lack' of 'understanding for the reality of the world' 

 

4 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

You want Iran to fight the west and the east at the same time on its own, while you in other instances say that you want Iran not to intervene in other countries policies at the same time.

I've never expected Iran to fight for anyone. I have an issue with anyone claiming to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) whilst supporting and condoning injustice. 

 

4 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

If you think I have a sick heart, then pray for me and I will in return pray for you.

I'm not the one throwing around these divisive and derogatory labels. You are. 

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31 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Please provide evidence for my 'lack' of 'understanding for the reality of the world' 

 

I've never expected Iran to fight for anyone. I have an issue with anyone claiming to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) whilst supporting and condoning injustice. 

 

I'm not the one throwing around these divisive and derogatory labels. You are. 

Like I said previoulsy could we not have rights to be suspicious about claims we hear from west about xinjiang ?

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40 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Please provide evidence for my 'lack' of 'understanding for the reality of the world' 

Your expectation of Iran to be capable of fighting both the west and the east at the same time while surviving is according to me an expectation that holds no ground in the reality of the world. Iran is simply not strong enough to fight all of them on its own at the same time. Nor will Imam al Mahdi(ajf) go straight from Kaaba to China on his first day of reappearance to fight the Chinese on his own. First fight is to unite the Muslims, that will be the fight that can enable us to take on greater conflicts.

 

43 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

I've never expected Iran to fight for anyone. I have an issue with anyone claiming to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) whilst supporting and condoning injustice.

It is arguable whether or not they support and condone injustice, that is clearly related to who you ask. I for one am not entire convinced about what is going on in China, all I know about what is going on in China is what the west says and most definitely they have their own agenda when it comes to trying to play my emotions. It might be bad in China for any religious groups that are not Buddhist, but I am not sure to what extent that is the case. Perhaps not anymore than what it is where I currently live, they recently banned hijab for children in one of the states and are talking about shutting down our mosque meanwhile threat after threat is given to the mosque and its visitors by far right as well as secular extremists.

 

48 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

I'm not the one throwing around these divisive and derogatory labels. You are. 

But you clearly seem to be the one who has taken personal offence to it, as if I was talking to you personally. Perhaps instead of getting defensive, you should reflect on why you took it so personally as well as IF you should take it personally.

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40 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Your expectation of Iran to be capable of fighting both the west and the east at the same time while surviving is according to me an expectation that holds no ground in the reality of the world. Iran is simply not strong enough to fight all of them on its own at the same time. Nor will Imam al Mahdi(ajf) go straight from Kaaba to China on his first day of reappearance to fight the Chinese on his own. First fight is to unite the Muslims, that will be the fight that can enable us to take on greater conflicts.

You did not provide evidence to back your claim of my 'lack of understanding for the reality of the world'.

 

40 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

But you clearly seem to be the one who has taken personal offence to it, as if I was talking to you personally. Perhaps instead of getting defensive, you should reflect on why you took it so personally as well as IF you should take it personally.

I take offence to anyone who claims to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) whilst engaging in the polar opposite of what they (عليه السلام) taught and stood for I.e. Justice and Haqq. 

Iran has many undisputed and admirable stands against injustice which no one can deny. But they also have lots of not so admirable policies that go against justice and Haqq. Speaking out against injustice doesn't make one a holder of a 'sick heart'.

As for your derogatory and divisive label itself, It only portrayed you (the source of the insult) in a bad light. 

Moving forward, lets agree to keep discussions polite and respectful whilst steering clear of such insults. 

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55 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

You did not provide evidence to back your claim of my 'lack of understanding for the reality of the world'.

What do you mean? What part of what I said is not considered factual? That Iran cannot fight both the west and the east at the same time and that you expecting otherwise is a clear evidence of your lack of understanding of the reality of the world?

 

55 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

I take offence to anyone who claims to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) whilst engaging in the polar opposite of what they (عليه السلام) taught and stood for I.e. Justice and Haqq. 

As I said, It is arguable whether or not they support and condone injustice, that is clearly related to who you ask. I for one am not entire convinced about what is going on in China, all I know about what is going on in China is what the west says and most definitely they have their own agenda when it comes to trying to play my emotions. I don’t think Iran has enganged in doing polar opposite of the teachings of Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام), saying so would be quite an extreme thing to say to be honest.

 

55 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Iran has many undisputed and admirable stands against injustice which no one can deny. But they also have lots of not so admirable policies that go against justice and Haqq. Speaking out against injustice doesn't make one a holder of a 'sick heart'.

As for your derogatory and divisive label itself, It only portrayed you (the source of the insult) in a bad light. 

The mindset I mentioned earlier is a clear sign of insincerity as it holds no argumentative continuity. If a person thinks the sky is red because I say its blue, he should not start saying the sky is blue when I start saying its red. I believe that anyone who display such behaviour are insincere and that holding a discussion is not the priority for them, rather convincing themselves that they know better and are always right is their priority. Or they could simply criticize you because they don't like you, so they will always see bad whatever you do. I believe such people objectively speaking have sick hearts and I don’t find anything wrong with saying that.

Again, I never mentioned you, nor tagged you, nor hinted towards you, but if you want to take it to heart as a personal "insult" then that is up to you, if you can’t relate to that then move on, unless you wish to disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing.

And as I said before, you are more than welcomed to PM your number and I can call you so we can talk in private about whatever differences we have. Though I don’t think you will ever pick up on that offer in a million years.

Edited by Soldiers and Saffron

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3 hours ago, Moalfas said:

I've never expected Iran to fight for anyone. I have an issue with anyone claiming to represent Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) whilst supporting and condoning injustice. 

 

3 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Your expectation of Iran to be capable of fighting both the west and the east at the same time while surviving is according to me an expectation that holds no ground in the reality of the world.

السلام عليكم أخي,

I don't think you are actually reading what the brother is writing, بارك الله فيكما

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10 minutes ago, Cyrax said:

 

السلام عليكم أخي,

I don't think you are actually reading what the brother is writing, بارك الله فيكما

Ws,

If there are no expectations of Iran to confront China, then there is no reason for critice when it is not doing so, rather reason for understanding since it acted according to your expectations. If there is no expectations of an action but at the same time critice when the action is not performed, then thats pretty unreasonable according me.

On the opposite, if you expect them to confront China and they don’t, then there is clear reason as to why you would criticize them.

Edited by Soldiers and Saffron

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27 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Ws,

If there are no expectations of Iran to confront China, then there is no reason for critice when it is not doing so, rather reason for understanding since it acted according to your expectations. If there is no expectations of an action but at the same time critice when the action is not performed, then thats pretty unreasonable according me.

On the opposite, if you expect them to confront China and they don’t, then there is clear reason as to why you would criticize them.

Two main problems with your line of thinking:

1) Criticizing someone doesn't mean you want to go to war with them or that you even want anything bad to happen to them.  I am, as an example, constantly criticizing the horrible crimes committed by the Saudis against the Yemeni people and have donated as much as I can to the cause, but I don't want to go to war with Saudi.  I am constantly criticizing the sanctions placed on countries like Iran that causes needless suffering, and that doesn't mean I want go to war with the US.  I'll give you one better, here is a list of countries criticizing China's policy towards the Uighur people:

Quote

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the UK.

None of the countries are declaring war against China, and most of them, if not all of them, would get crushed by China should they actually go to war.

2) Iran has actually SUPPORTED the Chinese policy against the Uighur people, so its not simply an issue of being quite against injustice, they are actually openly supporting it.

 

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7 hours ago, Moalfas said:

What's insulting to the Imam AJF and all of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is people claimig to represent the faith and their (عليه السلام) path whilst supporting and condoning injustice. 

You would rather put the lives of 80 million people in misery vs potentially not(condoning wont guarentee china stops oppressing) putting the lives of 12 million people in misery?

The Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) would save more people.

That black and white kind of thinking is what is ruining this world in the first place...

Edited by HusseinAbbas

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6 hours ago, realizm said:

Please tell us what's strange. And did Moqtada and Sistani speak up on all those issue, Uyghurs included.

 

What is strange is that you are naming other Muslim countries/entities when the topic is about Iran and its position on the Uyghurs. 

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7 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Actually this is not the same. There are always many attacks in Irak, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya etc while this is not the case for Xinjiang.

No, it is the same. It is collective punishment. You harm innocent people for the sake of "getting the bad guys".

7 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

This is again just a simple fact. Of course ends don’t justify means but again we must not be black and white in our judgment and we have right to be suspicous about what some medias say in particular when we see they don’t care so much about other persecuted Muslims like for exemple Yemenis or Palestinians just as few exemples to give.

This isn't just "some media", there is overwhelming evidence of Chinese oppression towards the Uyghur minority. 

I don't know why you are suspicious, the Chinese regime is openly communist and hostile to religion, and has many anti-religion laws. 

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There have been several individual Ulama in Iran that have spoken out against the oppression of the  Uyghurs  by the Chinese government  but for a variety of different  political economic and military geopolitical  reasons The Iranian government has a whole has not spoken out publicly  on The Uyghurs and the issue of  East Turkestan   but if Iran is to be true to the original Pan Islamic principals of the Islamic Revolution of 1979 then it  must find a way to help out and assist the Uyghurs and  their struggle for liberation from Chinese oppression 

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13 minutes ago, islamicsoldier said:

it  must find a way to help out and assist the Uyghurs and  their struggle for liberation from Chinese oppression 

It is quite possibly a matter of competing priorities.

These things happen to us in our own lives as well.

For example, if my job is at stake, I might ditch a friend and support my boss, even if I know he is in the wrong.

It does not mean I have no sympathy for my friend but I just cannot afford to lose my job, which I would if I supported my boss against my friend.

The moral courage of ordinary people like you and me does not belong to the highest level.

So it is possible that decision makers in Iran have to make choices that they are not really comfortable with.

Unfortunately, there is no Abu Zar Ghaffari, Hujr bin Adi or Ammar Yasir in our world of today.  

 

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

No, it is the same. It is collective punishment. You harm innocent people for the sake of "getting the bad guys".

This isn't just "some media", there is overwhelming evidence of Chinese oppression towards the Uyghur minority. 

I don't know why you are suspicious, the Chinese regime is openly communist and hostile to religion, and has many anti-religion laws. 

It is just a fact that terrorism happen massively again in places where americans intervened while this is not anymore the case in Xinjiang. Again I don’t even say this is good or bad this is just a fact. Now there are always innocents in a war. You admitted yourself this more than one time in this forum.

Well this is mostly western medias. You said yourself that many countries don’t think that.

Yes China is a communist country and clearly not a Muslim-friendly country, there are other countries like that who criticize the uyghur treatment by China that doesnt mean they are right.

I am suspicious because I had been with many pan-turkish activist and uyghur activist and I saw myself that many of them were separatists. So again that doesnt mean that those arrested are all terrorists. China is clearly an authoritarian state. What I think now is that we hide some aspect of this issue (attacks against chinese states by separatist and islamist groups in xinjiang) and I have doubts about the statistics we give toward the number jailed.

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1 hour ago, realizm said:

Ok so what about Ayatollah Sistani's stance ?

 Yeah and now these same people will say that Sistani's not involved with poltiics. That's not entirely true. When Sistani needed to speak up he did recently by praising Khamenei and the martyrs. Sistani even told people to practice self-restraint in the heat of the recent events. (We can all find his full statement).

It goes to show that people care more about bashing Iran and it's a way for them to make  a "point". Like I said, the situation isn't the straightforward as it appears to some people. 

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9 hours ago, realizm said:

More strange than Iran being the only country repeatedly asked about regarding those issues.

Not strange when you realise this is a Shi'a website, and Iran has many supporters on here, we aren't speaking with Morrocans are we? 

8 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

It is just a fact that terrorism happen massively again in places where americans intervened while this is not anymore the case in Xinjiang. Again I don’t even say this is good or bad this is just a fact. Now there are always innocents in a war. You admitted yourself this more than one time in this forum.

Bruv, no one is against counter-terror. What we are against is the Chinese regime declaring anyone they don't like a terrorist and collectively punishing a peoples.

9 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Well this is mostly western medias. You said yourself that many countries don’t think that.

Of course "many countries don't think that". Many countries also believe Israel is a bastion of democracy and human rights. Countries are not driven by principles, they are driven by interests. All the countries praising China have massive interests with China.

Verified independent evidence is what we use to charge people, not what countries say.

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Quote

You would rather put the lives of 80 million people in misery vs potentially not(condoning wont guarentee china stops oppressing) putting the lives of 12 million people in misery?

This is very important statement, because it truly tell that Iran only care of their people first. That itself is nationalistic. If this is justified and correct that Iran should care first of it's people, then other countries like Iraq have exactly the same intention. The intention to care first of their people and not them live in misery.

 

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On 1/14/2020 at 5:47 AM, Moalfas said:

There's absolutely no excuse for condoning and supporting any injustice. Especially not by anyone claiming to represent the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

 

Signed by both Iraq and Iran

it's same as your other posts that you posted about it & I refuted & you didn't respond to it  that they signed text based on official reports from china but case of brainwashing & torturing in Uighur camps mostly based on claims of Salafist without enough evidences but Iranian Marjas especially Imam Khamenei asked well caring of Uighurs if these claims are true anyway some specific persons in London  that claim their marja as greatest marja are deaf & dumb & blind about Uighur or putting them in range of Nawasib like as they did about Palestinians

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

 

Bruv, no one is against counter-terror. What we are against is the Chinese regime declaring anyone they don't like a terrorist and collectively punishing a peoples.

Of course "many countries don't think that". Many countries also believe Israel is a bastion of democracy and human rights. Countries are not driven by principles, they are driven by interests. All the countries praising China have massive interests with China.

Verified independent evidence is what we use to charge people, not what countries say.

Sumerian I think you didnt understand what I wanted to say.

I just said that chinese authorities succed to stop armed attacks in Xinjiang contrary to the region attacked by americans. I said that as a simple fact. I didnt deny that uyghurs live a har period now presently. What I said is that I am not convinced about everything we hear about Xinjiang is 100% true.

You are talking about "independent evidence" but this is good to see who are these persons. You talk like countries have interests but not the people which is not true.

Like I said earlier I am someone very interrested about turkic culture and I knew about the uyghurs and their difficulties a long time ago before 95% of Muslims in this planete had ever heard about them and their situation in China.

I myself came in many events organized by pan-turkist and uyghur groups. Many uyghurs were just normal people but I also saw that in these events many were parts of independantist groups. Do that justify persecution ? No. But honnestly I had to be honnest with myself. As an iranian I would not like (not even permit) an ethnic group to secede territories from my country (I think you as Iraqi you probably think the same).

So in short yes there are prisons where people are jailed. But like I said there had been many jihadist and separatist movements in Xinjiang and many people look to don’t know that or even minimize that. In short I don’t think chinese authorities did that without reasons.

Now you could ask "would it be not better to give uyghur an independant country" ? I would say yes of course. As a Muslim I would prefer to see other Muslims living independantly from a kafir system like China. But as a random individual what could I do in front of China ? Nothing. Only the Qaem (ajf) would help such Muslims inshallah.

About Iran I would say, if Iran had the capacities to struggle against both China and USA I would be among the first ones to support that. However Iran has just no power to struggle both. For me USA is worst than China so it is better to be at least for the moment not in bad term with China but continuing to be against the worst case. But inshallah like I said if one day Iran is enough strong I would be among the first one to be for be openly against both of this powers.

So in short I don’t deny there are now bad things happening in China but I  think there are probably exagerations and it is not like these actions came from nowhere (terrorism past in these region) and without loving China I find them better than America (at least for the moment).

I hope after that you will better understand my position.

May Allah help me if I am wrong inshallah.

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11 hours ago, realizm said:

Ok so what about Ayatollah Sistani's stance ?

I don’t know much about what his political role is, but of course I would want him and other marjas to take a stance against any and all injustice. Iran, as an Islamic country (just like Iraq) should also express its stance on what's happening in China because it is based on Islamic values first and foremost, before any other political values and interests. This isnt 'bashing' Iran or any country, it's a simple suggestion. 

Edited by 2Timeless

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15 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

I don’t know much about what his political role is, but of course I would want him and other marjas to take a stance against any and all injustice. Iran, as an Islamic country (just like Iraq) should also express its stance on what's happening in China because it is based on Islamic values first and foremost, before any other political values and interests. This isnt 'bashing' Iran or any country, it's a simple suggestion. 

Ayatollah Sistani has a larger influence on Shias than any leader in the Iranian parliament. But strangely the silence of other marjas don't matter to Shias. Do we rush and start questioning their credibility as scholars? Do we start calling them hypocritical? If people want to target the Islamic Republic of Iran since they represent the wilayah and teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) then what about all our marjas who are silent? Why aren't we consistent with our words? It just makes me feel that many people on this thread aren't being true at all.

 

 

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it's maybe off  topic but an Iranian diplomat that was in mission in Myanmar said that he saw that when he traveled there after attacking of radical Buddhist to Muslims he saw that a minority of Shias & their houses remained safe from attacks although they were among rest of Rohingyabs that when he asked for reason of it the Buddhisist said when they saw Images of Shia Marjas (Grand Ayt Sistani &Imam Khamenei ) in their house they understood that they are not Muslims so they didn't attack them :) also in china few Shia scholars that went for a long time period only allowed to travel to certain regions but they weren't allowed to travel to Uyghur region or to make contact with them  but in rest of allowed regions they don't find any reeducation  camps for Muslims .

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

I don’t know much about what his political role is, but of course I would want him and other marjas to take a stance against any and all injustice. Iran, as an Islamic country (just like Iraq) should also express its stance on what's happening in China because it is based on Islamic values first and foremost, before any other political values and interests. This isnt 'bashing' Iran or any country, it's a simple suggestion. 

Technically Iraq is officialy a secular state.

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2 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Sumerian I think you didnt understand what I wanted to say.

I just said that chinese authorities succed to stop armed attacks in Xinjiang contrary to the region attacked by americans. I said that as a simple fact. I didnt deny that uyghurs live a har period now presently. What I said is that I am not convinced about everything we hear about Xinjiang is 100% true.

You are talking about "independent evidence" but this is good to see who are these persons. You talk like countries have interests but not the people which is not true.

Like I said earlier I am someone very interrested about turkic culture and I knew about the uyghurs and their difficulties a long time ago before 95% of Muslims in this planete had ever heard about them and their situation in China.

I myself came in many events organized by pan-turkist and uyghur groups. Many uyghurs were just normal people but I also saw that in these events many were parts of independantist groups. Do that justify persecution ? No. But honnestly I had to be honnest with myself. As an iranian I would not like (not even permit) an ethnic group to secede territories from my country (I think you as Iraqi you probably think the same).

So in short yes there are prisons where people are jailed. But like I said there had been many jihadist and separatist movements in Xinjiang and many people look to don’t know that or even minimize that. In short I don’t think chinese authorities did that without reasons.

Now you could ask "would it be not better to give uyghur an independant country" ? I would say yes of course. As a Muslim I would prefer to see other Muslims living independantly from a kafir system like China. But as a random individual what could I do in front of China ? Nothing. Only the Qaem (ajf) would help such Muslims inshallah.

About Iran I would say, if Iran had the capacities to struggle against both China and USA I would be among the first ones to support that. However Iran has just no power to struggle both. For me USA is worst than China so it is better to be at least for the moment not in bad term with China but continuing to be against the worst case. But inshallah like I said if one day Iran is enough strong I would be among the first one to be for be openly against both of this powers.

So in short I don’t deny there are now bad things happening in China but I  think there are probably exagerations and it is not like these actions came from nowhere (terrorism past in these region) and without loving China I find them better than America (at least for the moment).

I hope after that you will better understand my position.

May Allah help me if I am wrong inshallah.

Bruv, I think you misunderstood me. If Iran doesn't want to speak on China that is one thing, on the otherhand, to praise the human rights record of China is another thing when me and you both know China is an oppressive State to all religious people and especially Muslims.

Do you agree that praising their record is wrong? Yes or no.

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Yet no one asks about the other maraji`...

Never knew Sistani praised China.

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1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

On the other hand, to praise the human rights record of China is another thing

True

But the document was signed by lots of nations. Around 50 to 60, I think.

There were lots of Muslim and non-Muslim countries in that list.

In any case, we really need to find out what exactly occasioned this signing.  

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