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In the Name of God بسم الله

Some tough questions from atheist

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Aslamoalaykum to all the venerable brothers and sisters. It has been quite a time since I have benefited from the wisdom of this forum.

Venerable fellows, today an atheist adduced some questions and I was not able to articulate my answers to those questions effectively. Therefore, if any brother or sister can provide a bit comprehensive answer to his question then I shall be very grateful.

" How God is not an unjust? As He has appointed and elevated certain individuals over rest of the creations according to His own will. why He did not test those individuals prior to making them Imams and Prophets? If God was Just then He must have taken the test of everyone before giving any person the status of Imam and Prophet but He didn't. How does that not refute His justness? why He did not make me an Imam what was my fault? To me it is an act of absolute injustice and why should we call any Prophet or Imam great because God made him intrinsically great unlike us? Prophet or Imam didn't achieve greatness rather they were born into it then how can they be called as great people? ."

How to answer this question ? Thanking you in advance

@Qa'im  @SoRoUsH  @Intellectual Resistance  @Sumerian

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1 minute ago, Goswami said:

" How God is not an unjust? As He has appointed and elevated certain individuals over rest of the creations according to His own will. why He did not test those individuals prior to making them Imams and Prophets? If God was Just then He must have taken the test of everyone before giving any person the status of Imam and Prophet but He didn't. How does that not refute His justness? why He did not make me an Imam what was my fault? To me it is an act of absolute injustice and why should we call any Prophet or Imam great because God made him intrinsically great unlike us? Prophet or Imam didn't achieve greatness rather they were born into it then how can they be called as great people? ."

There are wrong assumptions and premises in your questions.

(1) Why He did not test those individuals prior to making them Imams and Prophets?

Answer: He didn't need to. He knows exactly all about everyone's abilities and character.

(2) Why He did not make me an Imam,. What was my fault?

Answer: Because He knew from His unique knowledge that you are not worth it.

(3) Why should we call any Prophet or Imam great because God made him intrinsically great unlike us?

Answer: God did not make anyone intrinsically good or great.

He gave everyone the facility of choice and we chose not to do the things that exceptional people, like Prophets and Imams, do. 

(4) Why should we call any Prophet or Imam great because God made him intrinsically great unlike us?

Answer: Like everyone else, they were given the choice to do as they liked and they chose to do God's Will.

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ALL your questions miss the point that we all have CHOICE.

No one is created without CHOICE.

And different people make different choices.

If God makes someone a Prophet, it is because He knows what choices that person would make.

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He didn't need to. He knows exactly all about everyone's abilities and character.

This answer creates more problems then it actually solves. God is acquainted with the actions of each and every soul since the beginning then why was it necessary to create the spatio-temporal material world and test people? why He didn't throw them into hell and heaven without taking their test or creating this material world? 

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Because He knew from His unique knowledge that you are not worth it.

Atheist will use the same logic and will argue that it defeats the purpose of the creation of this universe. 

 

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 Like everyone else, they were given the choice to do as they liked and they chose to do God's Will.

weren't they infallible since their birth? is not a Prophet or Imam a Divine Guide since his birth? why deprive other person from this rank? 

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1. God gives different abilities and traits to creation. Some humans are gifted with more strength and intelligence than others. Some are born into into poverty and others not. Animals are not given the same faculties as humans. Are these all unjust? Or perhaps there is wisdom behind this. 
 

2. It would be unjust if God didn’t provide us Prophets and Imams who were absolutely qualified for their mission.

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God gives different abilities and traits to creation. Some humans are gifted with more strength and intelligence than others. Some are born into into poverty and others not. Animals are not given the same faculties as humans. Are these all unjust? Or perhaps there is wisdom behind this. 
 

This is what I am trying to decipher I.e. the wisdom behind this. Your point is very logical and it clicks to the mind. 

 

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 It would be unjust if God didn’t provide us Prophets and Imams who were absolutely qualified for their mission.

Agreed, this point also sounds rational but there is one thing point which has not been addressed yet why an individual in present times cannot become an Imam or Prophet by his spiritual struggle ?

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Let me elaborate his stance

1- The wisdom behind the immaculate nature of prophethood and imamate is not under question. The question is why certain people were conferred upon the honor of being an Imam and Prophet. why there was no test carried out to assess which soul is eligible for being a Prophet or an Imam?

2- why God bestows greatness upon some people without their test and bestows greatness upon other people after testing them (spritual greatness such as infallibility)?

3- Let us contemplate on a hypothetical example, there are two persons , one is born with a silver spoon in his mouth while other person is born into a poor family but by working very hard he becomes a wealthy person. who is a better role model between these two individuals? One who was simply born with a silver spoon in his mouth or the person who didn't succumb before adverse circumstances and changed his state by perseverance and sturdy willpower. who is a better person to emulate in this context? Of course it is the latter person. Likewise the question is , why individuals who defeats their evil intentions are not greater than Imams or Prophets because they struggled to defeat the evil intentions because they were not bestowed with infallibility ?

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Since I have been tagged,

Brother Goswami,

Do you conceive that there may be some method by which God was able to differentiate the quality of each soul, its potential, due to his infinite wisdom foreknowledge and understanding of his own creation, such that a hierarchy was able to be in play and the best of the potential servants were able to have thus been chosen? What if, when God created each soul, some willingly due to their free-will, sentience and choice gravitated and were closer to God than others? 

The answer is, I don't know, but there are many conceivable frameworks.

Ultimately, what we can rule out is that the whole thing is merely arbitrary and anyone could have been made a Prophet or Imam, and the ones made so are just lucky to have been granted the added support of seeing the reality of sin as it is and other aspects of infallibility.

I hope someone corrects me if I have spoken in error.

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In Ziyarat we say "Oh who was tested before she was created".

When God's throne was on the waters which is confirmed both in the Torah and Qur'an and Gospels,  he rose his throne which  his throne first carrier was Mohammed and then Ali jumped to him, then Fatima through gratitude to Mohammed and attraction to Ali, then Hassan was by what God meant "he saw that it was good" and Hussain saw that it was beautiful because God is beautiful.  The 9 Imams were born through recognizing a dimension or angle of beauty of those five, this happened like so fast, not even a millisecond, because they are attracted to God. Then God gave them each a Maqaman ma'aloom.

All souls could've heard God's voice, but it was Mohammed who responded and had to listen, and became the mouthpiece of God.  

The first to respond after was Jesus and his family which is Moses all the way to Yahya, including Mariam.  Then preceding chosen families all the way back to Adam and his group of twelve Captains along with Howra.

These are the exalted ones.

 

Then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) kept us all in this dead world with no forms, and created a world with 7 descending arcs and 7 rising arcs, the 6 days with 7th being never ending and hence never finished.

He called days light and made the sun a way to it, and called the night darkness and made the moon and stars the way out of it, and the descend and ascent is 6 days, first day is about the star of piercing through the darkness, then moon phases are five, then sun light till one annihilates themselves into the light and is one with the sun.

This is clear in the Torah and Qur'an comments on it, and the exalted ones which Adam wished to be of, was Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), and eating of them was to look at them with competition first type of envy though his one not the type to wish them bad like Iblis who disbelieved in their authority and God and their light.

When God created the stars and the sun and moon and created all instances of stars which are moons and suns depending on the stage of believer, he did it through this trial.

Moses and Aaron and their successors all the way to Jesus, are so exalted and who Qur'an goes to great lengths to manifest their wonders like Sulaiman.

They are Lion Kings symbolized by Twelve Statues with Solomon which symbolized his predecessors to Moses and Successors to Jesus.

Mohammed and his family are submissive to God without any swerving, they are those meant by verse 7 in Suratal Fatiha.

You ask a good question.  And in fact, they are the only ones (the exalted ones) who God knows what path they will walk in the future, while the rest of us, God is testing us to know us, we may fall, we may not. He will come to the patient while the kin in 42:23 is because he already knows what is behind them and what will follow and they don't intercede except by his permission.

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One point to consider Goswami is Alam al-Tharr.  This present reality where we are born was not our first existence. 

 

7. It is believed by many scholars that before we were created in this world we were all in another world called ‘Alam al-Dharr (the Universe of the Particles). In that universe, we were all able to witness the Oneness and Creatorship of Allah. This is why all human beings have an innate knowledge of God. In that universe, the people displayed differences in their response I.e. some were hesitant to believe and some were quick to believe and as a result they display differed ranks of faith in this universe. The following verse is believed to attest to this:

‘And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.’ (7:172)

This idea is also used to explain why some people receive special support from God right from the time of their birth or even before. Of course, I personally believe that ‘Alam al-Dharr was not temporally before this universe; rather it is a universe before this universe in order and not in time. It does not mean that there was a time we were present there and then we came here. These are parallel worlds. But in order ‘Alam al- Dharr came before this current one, because the spiritual world is prior to the physical one.

https://www.al-Islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-12-no-4-winter-2012/imamate-and-wilayah-part-3-Mohammed-Ali-shomali/imamate#block-search-form

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZiV60cwB5E&feature=emb_title

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29 minutes ago, Goswami said:

This is what I am trying to decipher I.e. the wisdom behind this. Your point is very logical and it clicks to the mind. 

Creation is more likely to interact with one another if they have different abilities. That leads to growth and development (symbiosis).

26 minutes ago, Goswami said:

The question is why certain people were conferred upon the honor of being an Imam and Prophet. why there was no test carried out to assess which soul is eligible for being a Prophet or an Imam?

Prophethood or Imamate are not acquired positions by human effort, but divinely appointed ones. The fact that God appoints is sufficient for those who believe. That’s the basic tenant of faith.
 

When God told Iblis to bow to Adam, the fact that God commanded this should have been enough. Full stop.

32 minutes ago, Goswami said:

Of course it is the latter person. Likewise the question is , why individuals who defeats their evil intentions are not greater than Imams or Prophets because they struggled to defeat the evil intentions because they were not bestowed with infallibility ?

The Prophets and Imams did not struggle? In fact, they struggled more in this world than anyone, because they had the responsibility of all of humanity in their hands!

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Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: 

There was a time when Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, took the descendents of Adam from his back to establish a covenant with them to testify that He is their Lord and to believe in the prophethood of all the Prophets. The first among the Prophets whose prophethood Allah wanted them to accept through a covenant was Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, then said to Adam, “Look (to find) what you can see.” ‘The Imam then said, “Adam then looked and saw his descendents appearing as small particles that filled the sky. Adam then said, ‘Lord, how huge in number my descendents are! For what purpose have You created them and for what reason did You make them to establish a covenant with You?’” Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, replied, “So that they worship Me and do not consider anything else as My equal and so that they believe in My messengers and follow them (for guidance).”

Adam then asked, “Lord, why is it that I see certain ones of the particles are greater, others have a great deal of lights, yet others among them have very little light and still others among them have no lights at all?” Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, replied, “Thus, I have created them to place them to test in every condition that they will live.” Adam then asked, “My Lord, will You grant me permission to speak so I may express myself?” Allah, the Majestic the Glorious said, “Speak up; your spirit is from My spirit but your nature is different from My being.” Adam then asked, “Lord, had You created them all just like each other, by the same measure, the same nature, of likewise design, of the same color, of equal life span, of equal amount of means of living they would not act against each other. No jealousy, animosity and differences would exist among them over anything.” Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, said, “O Adam, through My spirit you just spoke and due to the weakness of your nature you made an effort to give an opinion about that of which you have no knowledge. I Am the Creator of the world. I knowingly have created each one different from the others and through My Own way I will make My commands to take effect and they will continue existing through My plans and measures. There will be no changes in My creation. I have created the Jinn and human beings only to worship Me. I have created paradise for those who obey and worship Me and follow My messengers. I have no regrets in what I have done. I have created the fire for those who disbelieve, disobey Me and do not follow My messengers and I have no regrets in it. I have created you and your descendents not because I ever need you or your descendents in anyway or form. I have created you and created them to test you and test them to see which ones among you do good deeds in the worldly life before your deaths. For this reason I have created the world and the life thereafter, life, death, obedience, disobedience, paradise and the fire. This is how I willed in My measure and plan. Through My all-pervasive knowledge in them I have placed differences in their forms, bodies, colors, lifespan, means of living, obedience and disobedience. I, thus, have made certain ones of them to be unfortunate or very fortunate. Certain ones among them will have eyesight or be blind, others among them will be of short size or tall ones, beautiful or otherwise, knowledgeable or ignorant, wealthy or poor, obedient or disobedient, of good health or suffering from illness, of defective bodies or free of bodily defects. In this way those of perfect bodies will look at the defective ones and thank Me for the perfect body that I have given them and those with defective bodies will look at the perfect ones and will pray to Me and ask Me to grant them good health and exercise patience when and in the way I test them. Thus, I will grant them good rewards. The wealthy ones after looking to the poor ones will thank Me and appreciate My favors. When the poor ones look to the wealthy ones they pray to Me and ask Me favors. It is as such so that the believers will look to the unbelievers and thank Me for the guidance that I have granted them. For such reasons I have created them. I test them in ease and in hardships and in good health that I grant them and in the matters with which I test them, in the matters of what I grant them and in the matters that I refuse them. I am Allah, the powerful King. It is all up to Me to allow all of My measures and plans to take form or change them as I wish to the time that I wish. I may change the sequel of the timing of my measures and plans and allow, that which comes first to come last and vice versa. I am Allah, and I execute whatever I will. I am not questioned for whatever I do but I question My creatures about their deeds.”’”

Al Kafi-The Book of Belief and Disbelief H 1449, CH 1c, h 2

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3 hours ago, Goswami said:

" How God is not an unjust? As He has appointed and elevated certain individuals over rest of the creations according to His own will.

It is not an instance of God’s Justice, but rather of God’s Mercy that the Prophet (S) was sent as nothing BUT a mercy for all of existence / creation.  The Prophet (S) that is being spoken of here is not something that excludes everything else, but rather a reality that is all-inclusive in its being.  The Prophet (S) that is spoken of here is not an individual or a person but a trans-personal or trans-historic reality.  It is not in the nature of Mercy to exclude but to encompass.  
 

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why He did not test those individuals prior to making them Imams and Prophets?



He actually has chosen everyone, but you and I (as individuals) don’t believe it to be true.  If you and I really know ourselves (by transcending our individuality) we would not see our reality as separate from the reality of the Prophet (S).  But it is our own limiting beliefs of ourselves, our limiting belief of our true nature that we condemn ourselves to whatever we ordinarily think of ourselves to be.   The Prophet’s (S) reality is not a person (he is a reality that transcends individuality).  

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He actually has chosen you and I (as individuals) don’t believe it to be true.  If you and I really know ourselves (by transcending our individuality) we would not see our reality as separate from the reality of the Prophet (S).  But it is our own limiting beliefs of ourselves, our limiting belief of our true nature that we condemn ourselves to whatever we ordinarily think of ourselves to be.   The Prophet’s (S) reality is not a person (he is a reality that transcends individuality).  

Ahsant Akhi! The example of Salman Farsi comes into mind. Salman is an epitome of a spiritual adept who transcended to his true nature I.e. attaining theosis by bathing himself in the love of Ahlay bait (عليه السلام). This is the reason Imam (عليه السلام) said "Salman is from us". The example Salman is worth contemplating upon for every person who has the will to transform spiritually 

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Here is one answer inspired by a popular idea in contemporary political philosophy.  The idea is from Rawls who argued that inequalities in society are just only if they benefit the least well off.  For example its only okay to allow the existence of billionaires if their existence ultimately helps the poorest in society.  We could apply this to the case of Prophethood and say inequality in elevating certain individuals is just only if it benefits the least well off, and it does in fact benefit everyone as it provides everyone with an immaculate role model to follow.

Eventhough I like this answer, I personally I believe there is more to it and some brothers have touched on possible answers above.

Edited by .InshAllah.
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12 hours ago, Goswami said:

 

" How God is not an unjust?  If God was Just then

Simple answer which does not require a Phd Thesis.

At the very basic level of understanding about the relationship between The Creator and the created. You(The created) do not have the right to ask this/these questions. 

Who Your Creator is out of your control/domain. So, this /and others like these which question why is he this way and that way- are invalid questions. 

Who and whatever your Creator is - you can't change it. So, with this basic premise in mind- Judge the questions asked -if they are even valid. 

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14 hours ago, Goswami said:

How God is not an unjust? As He has appointed and elevated certain individuals over rest of the creations according to His own will.

Allah has given more responsibilities to those who are capable of taking more responsibilities without collapsing or quitting. 

14 hours ago, Goswami said:

why He did not test those individuals prior to making them Imams and Prophets?

Imams and Prophets are the most tested individuals. They are/were tasked with huge responsibilities on their shoulders. 

In addition, we ought to understand that our existence didn't start in this world. We have existed ever since the World of Particles, where we gave our allegiance to Allah. 

We are unaware of our being and existence from that time until our birth in this world. So, we cannot know, how and why these individuals were chosen. They may be essentially different than us, based on the mud and the water that was used to create them, in the world before this world. In fact, our narrations point to this fact. 

I think once you realize how we are, essentially, different than the chosen Imams and Prophets, you'd stop comparing yourself with them. They are created to act as pure vessels for receiving and transmitting knowledge. Their being, their essence, is purified. 

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15 hours ago, Goswami said:

Aslamoalaykum to all the venerable brothers and sisters. It has been quite a time since I have benefited from the wisdom of this forum.

Venerable fellows, today an atheist adduced some questions and I was not able to articulate my answers to those questions effectively. Therefore, if any brother or sister can provide a bit comprehensive answer to his question then I shall be very grateful.

" How God is not an unjust? As He has appointed and elevated certain individuals over rest of the creations according to His own will. why He did not test those individuals prior to making them Imams and Prophets? If God was Just then He must have taken the test of everyone before giving any person the status of Imam and Prophet but He didn't. How does that not refute His justness? why He did not make me an Imam what was my fault? To me it is an act of absolute injustice and why should we call any Prophet or Imam great because God made him intrinsically great unlike us? Prophet or Imam didn't achieve greatness rather they were born into it then how can they be called as great people? ."

How to answer this question ? Thanking you in advance

@Qa'im  @SoRoUsH  @Intellectual Resistance  @Sumerian

1. The atheist's assumption is wrong, there are excellence given by some in relation to other. For example: - If a leader does the toughest job of leading the other creation, the ordinary creation is left without such heavy responsibility. Thus, to me this freedom from heavy responsibility and freedom to walk without any threat is something which a leader does not possesses.\

2. If God has granted everyone equal status, then there would have been no need for us to be created and angels were sufficient. However, even then you would not have known full knowledge about God and not have known why should you thank him much more than anything in world. For example: - If you have not known that there could be lower creation like ant which dies in one day, would you have been that much thankful which right now you are feeling that you have 100 years of life if you eat healthy and do not be reckless and multiply it with days 100*365 = 365,500 days. 

3. He saved you from dying for each living creation on daily basis. You do not know grief of Imam brother. Besides, if you are not Imam, it is evidence against you that you are not your own creator so acknowledge the greatness of the one and be thankful to him that he did not make you nothing.

4. Prophets and Imams came into this world, face human-kinds bad behavior, cried on our sins and asked forgiveness for us, never bedaubed themselves with sins and never were tired for working for our welfare, some of them were sawed, some of them were choked, some of them were cut into pieces, some of them had to see their children being killed and some of them have to live in this world after witnessing the murder of their loved ones even though they did not desire to live long but they bore the burden of grief and living a life without their loved ones. This is earned and it is not by birth achieved. Do you have such strength brother ? If you have, you have achieved it only because you have examples before you of Imams and Prophets.

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@Goswami In my opinion as Prophet (PBUHHP) and Imams have taught to answer these questions you have to make use of reason and available knowledge, and use following strategy:

1. Before thinking on any question, make dua that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) help you to solve these questions for the sake of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and his favorite beings.

2. Think on the properties of matter.

3. Every property or feature reveal further knowledge.

4. Through this you will get answers. Insha-Allah.

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12 hours ago, Goswami said:

Ahsant Akhi! The example of Salman Farsi comes into mind. Salman is an epitome of a spiritual adept who transcended to his true nature I.e. attaining theosis by bathing himself in the love of Ahlay bait (عليه السلام). This is the reason Imam (عليه السلام) said "Salman is from us". The example Salman is worth contemplating upon for every person who has the will to transform spiritually 

The Quranic verse that says that “we have sent a messenger from amongst yourselves” is also worth contemplating on.  

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echoing some of the posts above with more simplistic examples...

19 hours ago, Goswami said:

1- The wisdom behind the immaculate nature of prophethood and imamate is not under question. The question is why certain people were conferred upon the honor of being an Imam and Prophet. why there was no test carried out to assess which soul is eligible for being a Prophet or an Imam?

technically, we don't know whether or not there was a test previously, do we?

19 hours ago, Goswami said:

2- why God bestows greatness upon some people without their test and bestows greatness upon other people after testing them (spritual greatness such as infallibility)?

we don't know whether one's soul has been tested or not, so we cannot say some people are born without test, ex. while the human body of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was created 1400 years ago, his light existed far before that; what tests has he faced before being physically born to directly carry the imamah?

19 hours ago, Goswami said:

3- Let us contemplate on a hypothetical example, there are two persons , one is born with a silver spoon in his mouth while other person is born into a poor family but by working very hard he becomes a wealthy person. who is a better role model between these two individuals? One who was simply born with a silver spoon in his mouth or the person who didn't succumb before adverse circumstances and changed his state by perseverance and sturdy willpower. who is a better person to emulate in this context? Of course it is the latter person.

take the person born into a poor family, recreate him with a silver spoon in his mouth; would he still have worked hard? would he have been charitable? would he have understood the pain of being poor, and understood the burden of responsibility Allah has appointed him?

The one born with a silver spoon carries a heavy burden similar to the poor, albeit a different type of burden. Only Allah has the wisdom behind this nature, I.e. the atheist is asking a question with an incomprehensible answer imo in this regard

20 hours ago, Goswami said:

Likewise the question is , why individuals who defeats their evil intentions are not greater than Imams or Prophets because they struggled to defeat the evil intentions because they were not bestowed with infallibility ?

As we know, infallibility is not the inability to sin, it's refraining from all sin. This aside,

Everyone has their different struggles. Some battle the struggle of not backbiting, others not stealing from others, others yet battle the struggle of sacrificing their children in the way of Islam. Each has their own struggle.

The Prophets simply don't struggle to refrain from the same petty stuff we do given their faith in God. Rather, they struggle with the good vs. the better sometimes, given anything evil is far beneath them to struggle against. It's too easy, like playing a video game you have completed on tutorial mode. The devil has approached them with evil on various occasions, they rejected him. On the flip side, they suffer consequences for not selecting the better over the good, while we don't suffer those same consequences, ex. mustahab prayer is mandatory for Rasool Allah (pbuhf)

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15 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

echoing some of the posts above with more simplistic examples...

technically, we don't know whether or not there was a test previously, do we?

 

we do know. After giving it much thought, I have concluded there is another way we can tackle this question. Every soul was tested first in Alam Al-Dhar. Our Hadith say our Prophet was the first one to acknowledge and recognize God in Alam Al-Dhar. Therefore, we can deduce that the reason why he was bestowed with the rank of Imamah and Prophethood is the very fact that he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the first one to recognize his Lord. 

 

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Muhammad Bin Al Husayn, from Ali Bin Ismail, from Muhammad Bin Ismail, from Sa’dan Bin Muslim, from Salih Bin Sahl, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah(عليه السلام) having said:

‘Rasool-Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was asked, ‘By which thing do you precede the children of Adam?’ He(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

‘I was the first one to acknowledge my Lord. Allah took the Covenant of the Prophets [7:172] and made them testify against themselves: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! So I was the first one to answer’.


what do you think of this approach? 

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2 hours ago, Goswami said:

we do know. After giving it much thought, I have concluded there is another way we can tackle this question. Every soul was tested first in Alam Al-Dhar. Our Hadith say our Prophet was the first one to acknowledge and recognize God in Alam Al-Dhar. Therefore, we can deduce that the reason why he was bestowed with the rank of Imamah and Prophethood is the very fact that he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the first one to recognize his Lord. 

 

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Muhammad Bin Al Husayn, from Ali Bin Ismail, from Muhammad Bin Ismail, from Sa’dan Bin Muslim, from Salih Bin Sahl, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah(عليه السلام) having said:

‘Rasool-Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was asked, ‘By which thing do you precede the children of Adam?’ He(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

‘I was the first one to acknowledge my Lord. Allah took the Covenant of the Prophets [7:172] and made them testify against themselves: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! So I was the first one to answer’.


what do you think of this approach? 

thats interesting.

though the atheist might say something like God created him as such and that's unfair to the rest

im also unsure how to reconcile that hadith with the hadiths that say the Prophet pbuhf was the first light created before any other creation, including other Prophets

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On 1/13/2020 at 11:23 AM, Goswami said:

Why He didn't throw them into hell and heaven without taking their test or creating this material world? 

Then everyone would complain "Why did you do this? What wrong have I done?"

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19 hours ago, Goswami said:

we do know. After giving it much thought, I have concluded there is another way we can tackle this question. Every soul was tested first in Alam Al-Dhar. Our Hadith say our Prophet was the first one to acknowledge and recognize God in Alam Al-Dhar. Therefore, we can deduce that the reason why he was bestowed with the rank of Imamah and Prophethood is the very fact that he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the first one to recognize his Lord. 

These are sacred myths which “resemble” what we ordinarily would call “history”.  They merely “resemble” history but are not speaking about a past for there is no real past or real future except in what the mind projects in this moment in the form of images/thoughts (“this moment” being the ONLY moment there is, which is eternally here and ever present).  It is obvious that these mythical stories are not in a historical past, and even if the majority of people take them for an actual past in time, the sacred myth is still effective in conveying its message to everyone albeit indirectly.  The Covenant of Alast, that is mentioned in the Qur'an, (where God asks mankind, Alastu Bi-rabbikum, and when mankind responds, balaa shahidna) is one of many examples of a sacred myth which did not occur in a past, but is happening “in real time”, “live streaming” (If you will).   it is therefore more true, more real, more factual than what we ordinarily would call “history”.

Again, we are referred back to our previous response in which we said that the reality of the Prophet (S) (that reality which transcends individuality, which is beyond this or that person and who is not separate from our true nature) exemplifies the perfect response to God right here and right now “Yes!, Bala”.  It is through the reality of the Prophet’s (S) “Yes” that all of us can say “yes”.  We can find our “yes” in the Prophet’s (S) “yes”.  

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Muhammad Bin Al Husayn, from Ali Bin Ismail, from Muhammad Bin Ismail, from Sa’dan Bin Muslim, from Salih Bin Sahl, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah(عليه السلام) having said:

‘Rasool-Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was asked, ‘By which thing do you precede the children of Adam?’ He(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

‘I was the first one to acknowledge my Lord. Allah took the Covenant of the Prophets [7:172] and made them testify against themselves: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! So I was the first one to answer’.


what do you think of this approach? 

 

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This is common among athiests. Why did God do this, not do this...

Who has the wisdom to know what is truly just or unjust? Who has the wisdom to know God's mind?

Who has the audacity to insist God follow human opinions?

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9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

This is common among athiests. Why did God do this, not do this...

Who has the wisdom to know what is truly just or unjust? Who has the wisdom to know God's mind?

Who has the audacity to insist God follow human opinions?

Exactly.

The concept of "Adalat" (Justice of God) and the whole reason why it became part of the foundation of the Shia religion (which are "five" (5), Tawhid, Adalat, Nubuwat (Prophecy), Imamat,(Divine Leadership), Qiyamat (Resurrection)) is what I believe to be the monkey wrench.  Adalat is purely a Mutazilite influence (Mutazili is a theological school of thought that emphasized independent rationality as opposed to the literalist Hambalites).  Pure Shiaism was, from its origin, a very Mystical Tradition, they didn't have a dogma, they were merely those who surrounded and learned from the Imams (The Shiite Imams of the time).  Over time, this reality of Shiaism turned into a theological dogma the more the Shias turned towards reason and less towards their spiritual connection to their Imams (which is where true gnosis is derived).  Now, Mutazili's respond to Euthyphro's dilemma by saying that God is good and not bad because there is objective good and objective bad.  The literalists say that God is good because whatever He does is by definition "good".  The mutazilis said that human reason can discern between what is praiseworthy and what is blameworthy.  These theological responses influenced Shiaism until the present day.  They imagine that to believe in God's Justice is to act God.  To take judgement in their own hands because their rational faculties are sufficient to do the job.  

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On 2/1/2020 at 4:27 AM, Son of Placid said:

This is common among atheists. Why did God do this, not do this...

Who has the wisdom to know what is truly just or unjust? Who has the wisdom to know God's mind?

Who has the audacity to insist God follow human opinions?

Islam “blames the ‘victim’” for a) assuming he’s a victim and b) acting (whining) like a victim when he needs a good, divine “beating” (whether literally or otherwise).

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On 2/2/2020 at 4:23 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

I don't expect more than this from a your  [edit]

As far as I know (or perceive), he’s a self-indulgent Gnostic, also known as a Satanist.

@eThErEaL, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Edited by Hameedeh
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On 2/1/2020 at 7:41 AM, eThErEaL said:

Exactly.

The concept of "Adalat" (Justice of God) and the whole reason why it became part of the foundation of the Shia religion (which are "five" (5), Tawhid, Adalat, Nubuwat (Prophecy), Imamat,(Divine Leadership), Qiyamat (Resurrection)) is what I believe to be the monkey wrench.  Adalat is purely a Mutazilite influence (Mutazili is a theological school of thought that emphasized independent rationality as opposed to the literalist Hambalites).  Pure Shiaism was, from its origin, a very Mystical Tradition, they didn't have a dogma, they were merely those who surrounded and learned from the Imams (The Shiite Imams of the time).  Over time, this reality of Shiaism turned into a theological dogma the more the Shias turned towards reason and less towards their spiritual connection to their Imams (which is where true gnosis is derived).  Now, Mutazili's respond to Euthyphro's dilemma by saying that God is good and not bad because there is objective good and objective bad.  The literalists say that God is good because whatever He does is by definition "good".  The mutazilis said that human reason can discern between what is praiseworthy and what is blameworthy.  These theological responses influenced Shiaism until the present day.  They imagine that to believe in God's Justice is to act God.  To take judgement in their own hands because their rational faculties are sufficient to do the job.  

You seem to be creating a straw man and throwing all who subscribe to Shia Islam as those who are heavily influenced by a differently embellished creed which upon dissection reverts one back to Mutazili theology, however it is necessary to note that in the same sense within Sunni Islam there are varying interpretations and understandings pertaining to their own creed, an example could be and is the direct opposite, where we see many Sunnis turning towards the dogmatic beliefs of the Asharites.

I believe it is highly disingenuous of you to simply through us all (Shias) under the dogmatic influence of the Mutazili school of thought, albeit there is a Mutazili influence proportionate to that of the Ashirate influence as it is a mixture of both schools of thoughts and ideologies.

fifty percent predestination and fifty percent free will.

You can keep voicing your concern about the supposed lack of spirituality within Shi'ism, but in the end that is more the fault of the people, the cultural influences, as well as the certain demographic, and personal anecdotal instances.

In the end we derive our creed not dogma from the Ja'fari school of thought as well as our spirituality.

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19 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

You seem to be creating a straw man and throwing all who subscribe to Shia Islam as those who are heavily influenced by a differently embellished creed which upon dissection reverts one back to Mutazili theology,

But with due fairness dear brother.  I have not said that.

 

This is what I also said above:

Quote

Pure Shiaism was, from its origin, a very Mystical Tradition, they didn't have a dogma, they were merely those who surrounded and learned from the Imams (The Shiite Imams of the time).  Over time, this reality of Shiaism turned into a theological dogma the more the Shias turned towards reason and less towards their spiritual connection to their Imams (which is where true gnosis is derived). 

Aside from this I have also mentioned in other posts how it is still valid in some way, but this depends on what elements of Shiaism is emphasized.

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24 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

where we see many Sunnis turning towards the dogmatic beliefs of the Asharites.

Ash'arite theology (by Abu Hasan Al-Asha'ri) was a response to Mutazili Theology and Hambilis.  If I have to choose between Mutazili and Ashari I would choose Ash'ari anytime.  It is a profound creed when understood through an Irfani lens (which was what it was intended for).  

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