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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ejaz

We manifest Allah’s attributes? What about evil!?

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:bismillah:
:salam:

In this Tawheed lecture Dr. Sekaleshfar mentions a narration from al Kafi where the Imam (عليه السلام). speaks about how it is wrong to say “Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Greater than everything” since you are placing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on one side and “something” on the other side. Instead we see rocks, plants, animals, humans and everything as a manifestation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (sort of like thoughts to the brain). Pls forgive me if I misrepresented what the respected Shaykh said.

I have two questions about this:

1. How is this reconcilable with the below narration where the Imam (عليه السلام). could be in a sense separating the creation (I.e. “something”) from the Creator (a Limitless, Omnipotent “thing”)?

Quote

H 218, Ch. 2, h 4 , Al Kafi
It is narrated from Imam Abu "Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who said, "Allah is distinct from His creatures and the creatures are different from Him. Whatever could be called a thing is a creature except Allah Who is the Creator of all things. Holy is He for Whom there is no similarity and He is all-hearing and all-aware."

2. What about evil, does that manifest Him as well (nauzubillah)? Then why create hellfire? I have heard the respected Shaykh state that Shaytan l.a. is an agent of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) misguides those who want to be misguided, but what about the pride and evil and temptations and sins of Shaitan l.a. Surely this is a perfection of “evil” and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is free from it?

Jazakumullahu Khayran

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19 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

When one commits evil, he is displaying God’s wrath

But Allah displays his wrath to those who deserve it whereas people who commit disorder display it “unjustly” or “irrationally”?

19 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

God in Himself cannot be conceptualized or categorized or distinguished and this includes even the conceptual category of or the distinction of “Absoluteness” or “Infinitude”.   So when you say God is THIS and not THAT (this is a distinction and therefore a limit) that we are putting on Him

SubhanAllah this reminds me of the sermon in Nahjul Balagha: “from the similarity between things it is known that He has no similar. From the contrariness between things it is known He has no contrary”. But are we not conceptualising Him when we are saying that everything manifests Him at different degrees like how thread makes up clothing? Are we not making a “similar” to Him (nauzubillah) when we say Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) manifested pure essence and was ainullah or vajhullah?

Wasalam

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Qur'an definitely indicates Allah is greater than everything.

Based on that I'll reject the hadith untill proven otherwise.

(1) There is only one God: “There is no God save Allah” (47.19).

(2) He is the “creator of everything” (6.102).

(3) Before starting the creation, God was alone; eternity is strictly God’s: “He is the first and the last” (57.3).

(4) He is the supreme ruler of the universe: “Allah is able to do all things” (5.17); “Allah does what He wishes” (2.253).

(5) God is unique and dissimilar to anything: “There is nothing like Him” (42.11).

(6) He is subtle and out of the reach of anyone’s senses: “Vision cannot grasp Him, but He grasps all vision; and He is the Subtle One, the Aware One” (6.103).

(7) Everything and everyone is in submission to Him, whether by choice or by force: “To Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the Earth, willingly or unwillingly” (3.83).

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7 hours ago, Ejaz said:

But Allah displays his wrath to those who deserve it whereas people who commit disorder display it “unjustly” or “irrationally”?

there is NOTHING but God’s Essence, His Attributes and His Acts.

All of the “THINGS” you see in the world is a creative act of His.  It is not a thing that “was” created by God.  It is God’s very creative act in this very moment!  Furthermore all the attributes and qualities you see in this world are none other than God’s Attributes (not the world’s).  A beautiful flower is firstly nothing but God’s beautiful creative act, and God’s act of beauty is a manifestation of God’s attribute of Beauty. (Because one that does beautiful things is beautiful). Beauty does not belong to the flower but to God.  And finally, what there is is none other than God’s Essence, not the flowers Essence, but God’s Essence.  
 

God’s Mercy = closeness, nearness, awareness, oneness, wholeness, luminosity, beauty, ignorance, compassion, gentleness, harmony.

God’s Wrath = distance, remoteness, ignorance, unconsciousness, many-ness, dispersion, darkness, ugliness, disharmony.

When someone is proud of his supposed existence or of what he supposedly has, then he is ignorant (he is ignorant of the fact that there is no existence save God alone).  But despite his ignorance his pride is nothing but God’s majestic attribute of “The Proud” (He is manifesting an aspect of God even though he is unaware of it).  God’s attribute of “Pride” is an attribute of His majesty in relation to God but it also God’s wrath in relation to the one (the creature) that displays it because it is ignorance.  Ignorance of God’s absoluteness and unawareness of the Reality of God is a distancing from God (it is God’s Wrath).   
 

Quote

SubhanAllah this reminds me of the sermon in Nahjul Balagha: “from the similarity between things it is known that He has no similar. From the contrariness between things it is known He has no contrary”. But are we not conceptualising Him when we are saying that everything manifests Him at different degrees like how thread makes up clothing? Are we not making a “similar” to Him (nauzubillah) when we say Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) manifested pure essence and was ainullah or vajhullah?

All this talk is indeed conceptual.  But we have to start somewhere for now.  Step by step.  The actual non-conceptualizing comes only when you begin to “work on yourself”.

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, Warilla said:

(3) Before starting the creation, God was alone; eternity is strictly God’s: “He is the first and the last” (57.3).

There is not a before or an after with respect to God’s Eternal Being since God is not in time (before and after is only relevant with regards to time).  So what could YOU possibly mean by before God creates?  

3 hours ago, Warilla said:

(4) He is the supreme ruler of the universe: “Allah is able to do all things” (5.17); “Allah does what He wishes” (2.253).

(5) God is unique and dissimilar to anything: “There is nothing like Him” (42.11).

(6) He is subtle and out of the reach of anyone’s senses: “Vision cannot grasp Him, but He grasps all vision; and He is the Subtle One, the Aware One” (6.103).

(7) Everything and everyone is in submission to Him, whether by choice or by force: “To Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the Earth, willingly or unwillingly” (3.83).

 

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3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

There is not a before or an after with respect to God’s Eternal Being since God is not in time (before and after is only relevant with regards to time).  So what could YOU possibly mean by before God creates?  

 

1) I'm not sure what you mean by "YOU" I don't speak Arabic. You are welcome to use another translation.

2) my brain is limited to using time as a reference. I can't explain Allah outside my limits. But I do know he is greater than everything according to the translation of his word. 

 

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Salam,

@Warilla is talking about "in relation to creation".  He is talking as he lives on physical Earth, using his brain faculty to understand creation through Qur'an and understand that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond his description. Time exists when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dealing with creation.

@eThErEaL is talking about "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)".  He is talking as he lives in higher spiritual realm.  For him, time does not exist in relation to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Both see Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through different wavelengths and reference point.

 

The discussion by the OP is about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Attributes (not HIS Essence) in relation to creation.  In particular, the creation of Evil.  How to reconcile?

Wallahualam.

Edited by layman

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2 hours ago, layman said:

Salam,

@Warilla is talking about "in relation to creation".  He is talking as he lives on physical Earth, using his brain faculty to understand creation through Qur'an and understand that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond his description. Time exists when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dealing with creation.

@eThErEaL is talking about "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)".  He is talking as he lives in higher spiritual realm.  For him, time does not exist in relation to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Both see Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through different wavelengths and reference point.

 

The discussion by the OP is about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Attributes (not HIS Essence) in relation to creation.  In particular, the creation of Evil.  How to reconcile?

Wallahualam.

This has nothing to do with points of view.  
 

if I were talking about the perspective of God Himself (Haqiqa Perspective) I would say that only God exists and that creation doesn’t exist at all.  
But from our point of view, we exist relatively.  We exist in someway but we also do not exist in other ways.  Even from this stand point or view point, we can talk about how God does not have a BEFORE or an AFTER like “we” do.

Even from our point of view, it doesn’t make sense to say “before creation”, UNLESS we mean “before” in a metaphorical way.   

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7 hours ago, layman said:

The discussion by the OP is about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Attributes (not HIS Essence) in relation to creation.  In particular, the creation of Evil.  How to reconcile?

Wallahualam.

True I didn't attempt to answer the question as I was staying why I reject the hadith.

In relation to evil it's not a "thing" it's a perspective.

A child being killed Infront of Prophet Musa is not "evil" as it's Allah's command

A creation refusing Allah, to bow down to another creation, is evil.

Evil is a choice that goes against Allah's guidance.

"Man is a telling witness against himself although he tenders excuses." (75:14-15)

The problem with western philosophy is it asks pointless questions.

Unfortunately this has integrated itself into mainstream Islam.

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17 hours ago, Warilla said:

Qur'an definitely indicates Allah is greater than everything.

Can you please provide any reference of this? In which verse it is mentioned that Allah is greater than everything? 

As far as I know, it is present in Qur'an that the "Dhikr of Allah is Akbar" 

وَلَذِكْرُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ (29:45

And 

وَرِضْوَانٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ أَكْبَرُ (9:72

And 

لَمَقْتُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ مِن مَّقْتِكُمْ (40:10

How is it possible that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compare Himself with "anything" while mentioning that there is "nothing like Him" (لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ)! 
So when there is no likeness, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is greater than what? 
 

Edited by Logic1234

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1 hour ago, Logic1234 said:

Can you please provide any reference of this? In which verse it is mentioned that Allah is greater than everything? 

As far as I know, it is present in Qur'an that the "Dhikr of Allah is Akbar" 

وَلَذِكْرُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ (29:45

And 

وَرِضْوَانٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ أَكْبَرُ (9:72

And 

لَمَقْتُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ مِن مَّقْتِكُمْ (40:10
 

See my first post. I gave a few refferences.

That combined with "Allah is Akbar" I feel is enough.

Edited by Warilla

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1 hour ago, Warilla said:

In relation to evil it's not a "thing" it's a perspective.

Evil is both of a thing &  a perspective but doesn't has power over pious people & Prophets (pbu) & infallible Imams (عليه السلام) 

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2 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Can you please provide any reference of this? In which verse it is mentioned that Allah is greater than everything? 

As far as I know, it is present in Qur'an that the "Dhikr of Allah is Akbar" 

وَلَذِكْرُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ (29:45

And 

وَرِضْوَانٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ أَكْبَرُ (9:72

And 

لَمَقْتُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ مِن مَّقْتِكُمْ (40:10

How is it possible that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compare Himself with "anything" while mentioning that there is "nothing like Him" (لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ)! 
So when there is no likeness, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is greater than what? 
 

I believe the Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond us.

I believe @Warilla is alluding to Attributes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

What we can talk about are Attributes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

As we say in Doa Kumail.

In the Name of Allah, the All-merciful, the All-compassionate

O Allah, I ask You by Your mercy, which embraces all things;

And by Your strength, through which You dominate all things,

And toward which all things are humble

And before which all things are ordinary;

And by Your invincibility through which You overwhelmest all things,

And by Your might, which nothing can resist;

And by Your tremendousness, which has filled all things; by Your force, which towers over all things;

And by Your face, which subsists after the annihilation of all things,

And by Your Names, which have filled the foundations of all things;

And by Your knowledge, which encompasses all things;

And by the light of Your face, through which all things are illuminated!

 

 

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2 hours ago, Warilla said:

See my first post. I gave a few refferences.

That combined with "Allah is Akbar" I feel is enough.

Salam Brother! 

I have seen your first post. The verses mentioned in there never says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is greater than everything. 

 

20 hours ago, Warilla said:

Qur'an definitely indicates Allah is greater than everything.

I was just asking reference for this "definitely indicates", where is that comparison in Qur'an? 

 

20 hours ago, Warilla said:

(1) There is only one God: “There is no God save Allah” (47.19).

(2) He is the “creator of everything” (6.102).

(3) Before starting the creation, God was alone; eternity is strictly God’s: “He is the first and the last” (57.3).

(4) He is the supreme ruler of the universe: “Allah is able to do all things” (5.17); “Allah does what He wishes” (2.253).

(5) God is unique and dissimilar to anything: “There is nothing like Him” (42.11).

(6) He is subtle and out of the reach of anyone’s senses: “Vision cannot grasp Him, but He grasps all vision; and He is the Subtle One, the Aware One” (6.103).

(7) Everything and everyone is in submission to Him, whether by choice or by force: “To Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the Earth, willingly or unwillingly” (3.83).

Please indicate precisely where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned or even indicated that He is greater than everything? 

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51 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Salam Brother! 

I have seen your first post. The verses mentioned in there never says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is greater than everything. 

 

I was just asking reference for this "definitely indicates", where is that comparison in Qur'an? 

 

Please indicate precisely where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned or even indicated that He is greater than everything? 

I understood that you wanted an explicit verse. Which there isn't, the closest would be the word most great eg in Surah Ar Rad

but everything I posted plus combination with ( as you rightly mentioned about) Allah huakbar as dhikar is enough for me to confidentiality make the statement Allah is greater than everything. And explicitly the highest form of the Arabic word for great (Surah ghafir)

Ofcourse I'm open to other opinions.

Edited by Warilla

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On 1/2/2020 at 1:53 AM, Warilla said:

Before starting the creation, God was alone; eternity is strictly God’s: “He is the first and the last” (57.3).

The Shaykh said Allah is “the awwal, the akhir, the zahir, the batin of everything”. But he disapproved of the Big Bang model if it posits there was once “non-existence” because this does not exist.

I‘ll need to do research to understand this more.

wasalam

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On 1/1/2020 at 1:47 PM, eThErEaL said:

God’s Mercy = closeness, nearness, awareness, oneness, wholeness, luminosity, beauty, knowledge, compassion, gentleness, harmony.

Made a typo in the previous post.  The bold is the correction.  Mercy = knowledge, not ignorance.  

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1 hour ago, Ejaz said:

The Shaykh said Allah is “the awwal, the akhir, the zahir, the batin of everything”. But he disapproved of the Big Bang model if it posits there was once “non-existence” because this does not exist.

I‘ll need to do research to understand this more.

wasalam

What the modern scientist means by non-existence is not necessarily what a scholastic philosopher would mean by “non-existence”.  The modern scientist talks about a lot of things very loosely, and this is can be very problematic.  
 

To be very honest with you, most of the modern scientists really don’t have a clue what they are talking about.  It is all just theory for them which all of a sudden turn into “facts”, and facts then turn into “reality” for them.  It is a big mess.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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13 hours ago, Warilla said:

I understood that you wanted an explicit verse. Which there isn't, the closest would be the word most great eg in Surah Ar Rad

but everything I posted plus combination with ( as you rightly mentioned about) Allah huakbar as dhikar is enough for me to confidentiality make the statement Allah is greater than everything. And explicitly the highest form of the Arabic word for great (Surah ghafir)

Ofcourse I'm open to other opinions.

 

You are no doubt correct (in a relative sort of way).  in fact if you find this helpful you should stick with it. You can say God is greater than this and greater than that (and this can be acceptable).  it works at a certain level.  But it is not the highest level of affirming God since you are still granting some sort of reality and being to the created things by virtue of the “comparison”.  But you don’t need to adopt this higher level especially if you find that it is not helpful to you.  Maybe later, inshallah, you will find it helpful.  
 
St. Anselm’s definition of God in his ontological proof for God’s existence can serve as an apt translation of the non Quranic formula: “Allahu Akbar”. He refers to God as “A being than which nothing greater can be conceived”.  
 
Edited by eThErEaL

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JazakAllahu Khayran, May Allah bless you for your responses and religious wayfaring.

What doesn’t make sense is if there is only God why are we referred to as “creation” (if “we” exist). If there is only the essence of God then the essence seems to be changing (nauzubillah) as the universe is changing.

It also seems difficult to accept because we believe we exist because of the sensations that we feel and we have created an ego boundary where “I” is separate from “everything else”.

If this perspective of Tawhid were to be true then we cannot use the Kalām cosmological argument for the existence of God.

Edited by Ejaz

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On 1/2/2020 at 5:33 AM, Logic1234 said:

Salam Brother! 

Please indicate precisely where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned or even indicated that He is greater than everything? 

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem, 

This a great thread! Alhamdullilah!! Please don’t mind if I hop in this and give reflection as well. I will start with this top quote since it’s more fresher in my mind. 

Allah refers to himself as the Most! The “Most” Gracious, The “Most” Merciful. Isn't the “Most” greater than everything? These are the very first words of Qur'an and is how Allah introduces himself to us in Surah Fatiha. Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. 

Allahu Akbar! Isn’t  Allahu Akbar saying that Allah is greater than everything in itself. Has anyone counted how many times Allahu Akbar is in the Qur'an? Allah declares himself as the most so there can be nothing equal to or greater than Allah in greatness, and all of Allah’s creation will know the reality when Allah does declare himself as the greatest before all of his creation on Yauma Qiyamah. Master of the day of Judgement. Another verse that states Allah as being greater than Everything. Maliki Yawmi Deen. 

If there wasn’t some type of description of Allah being greater than everything in the Qur'an then there could, should, and would be some cause for concern? In the past, present, and future there were men and still are men and jinn of free will who declare themselves as a God or called themselves the greatest.  

Thankfully Allah tells us otherwise or else there would be total confusion even more than what there is now. Allah tells us that he is the greatest and therefore we believe that he is the greater than everything. 

Alhamdulilah 

 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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This is a question in philosophy and metaphysics.

The proponents of Sufi/‘Irfani thought (á la Ibn ‘Arabi and Mulla Sadra) argue that God is existence, God is reality, and everything is a manifestation of His attributes. They argue that evil does not substantially exist, but rather evil is just a lack of goodness, which exists on a gradient.

The traditionalists and Shaykhis however believe that God and the creation and distinct, and that God’s names are representations of Him rather than “manifestations” of His essence. The traditional view is that evil substantially exists, and that it is created. 

Both schools have to grapple with questions, but I know intelligent and decent folks on both sides of the debate. I personally find myself agreeing with the latter — as attractive and appealing as the ‘Irfani framework can be at times, I don’t believe that it is what the Qur'an and hadiths were all along trying to say.

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On 12/31/2019 at 8:44 AM, Ejaz said:

:bismillah:
:salam:

2. What about evil, does that manifest Him as well (nauzubillah)? Then why create hellfire? I have heard the respected Shaykh state that Shaytan l.a. is an agent of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) misguides those who want to be misguided, but what about the pride and evil and temptations and sins of Shaitan l.a. Surely this is a perfection of “evil” and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is free from it?

 

Alhamdullilah, 

Allah isn’t a manifestation of evil nor Does Allah create evil. Evil could be a reflection of the sins of free will creatures. Allah is free from blame and sin, so the sins are the results of the actions of Allah’s free will creatures. Whatever evil we do is against ourselves. It’s all part of the Qur'an. This is the example of a story that is playing itself out as time goes on just like the Qur'an describes. 

Allah doesn’t destroy a soul so he will place the unbelievers in Hellfire which is a suitable place for them. They are absolute enemies of Allah. They wouldn’t believe if they were sent back and the evil they did in this world they would do in the next. They are enemies of Allah and the aggressors and transgressors. This is only a reason but Allah has many reasons that are beyond our capacity of thinking. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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1 hour ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Allah refers to himself as the Most! The “Most” Gracious, The “Most” Merciful. Isn't the “Most” greater than everything? These are the very first words of Qur'an and is how Allah introduces himself to us in Surah Fatiha. Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. 

Salam,

Brother there is no "mostness" in siffat of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Ar-Rehman or Al-Rehman, in this ism, the "Al" doest not means "most" rather it means The Merciful. In other words, it means only He is merciful therefore there cannot be any comparison possible here. Wherever you see mercy, you should identify it as the manifestation of The One & Only Merciful.

Al-Ghafoor, only He is the forgiver as you can understand from the phrase where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has stated إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

Similar phrases are present in Qur'an

إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الرَّحِيمُ

إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ

Wallaho A'lam

 
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Allahu Akbar! Isn’t  Allahu Akbar saying that Allah is greater than everything in itself.

Unfortunately, you are again comparing Him while He has no mithl (likeness). When He has no likeness at all, do you think Allaho Akbar would mean that He is greater than everything? 

2 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Has anyone counted how many times Allahu Akbar is in the Qur'an? 

I highly recommend you to do that and find yourself how many time it is written in there.

2 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

If there wasn’t some type of description of Allah being greater than everything in the Qur'an then there could, should, and would be some cause for concern? 

:) People usually do mistake by comparing Him with others (created things). 

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Brother, here is the problem. When you say God is greater than everything, you accept the greatness of everything in the first place then state that Allah is greater than all these while greatness is specific for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), only He is great.

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8 hours ago, Ejaz said:

JazakAllahu Khayran, May Allah bless you for your responses and religious wayfaring.

What doesn’t make sense is if there is only God why are we referred to as “creation” (if “we” exist). If there is only the essence of God then the essence seems to be changing (nauzubillah) as the universe is changing.
 

It is not that we imagine the creation to exist but that it does not really exist.  This is not the case.  Rather the case is WHAT is understood by all that exists.  This is the fact: Existence exists (or more precisely there is reality).  But some imagine existence to be merely a scattered multiplicity (even if one of the objects within this multiplicity is what they call “God”).  But those who are realized know or understand that this reality is just One, Partless Whole.  Son it is not a question of “Is it?”, but of “what or who is it?”.

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It also seems difficult to accept because we believe we exist because of the sensations that we feel and we have created an ego boundary where “I” is separate from “everything else”.

Let’s assume for the time being that Sensations exist.  Ask now what is this sensation as you are experiencing it right now.  You will be tempted to name it or label it, by a thought of an image or a name, but just get to know it by experiencing it directly.  You will notice that you cannot experience “it” directly without labeling it by a thought or a name or an image in your imagination.  This is because the experience as such is not an  “it” or an “object”.  The experience as such is not an “object of experience”.  Experience as such has no boundaries or borders, it a seamless or partless whole, it is Reality per se.    You can do this with every “object” of existence.

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If this perspective of Tawhid were to be true then we cannot use the Kalām cosmological argument for the existence of God.

Yes. Kalam Cosmological Proof is really baseless in light of all this.  It is simply not needed because God is His own proof.

Edited by eThErEaL

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17 minutes ago, Cool said:

Brother, here is the problem. When you say God is greater than everything, you accept the greatness of everything in the first place then state that Allah is greater than all these while greatness is specific for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), only He is great.

Alhamdulilah, 

Thank you dear brother! I see what you’re saying and fully comprehend now. I will not refer to Allah as most High because there is no mostness in the siffat of Allah? So just refer to Allah as high or the high? 

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46 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

So just refer to Allah as high or the high? 

Yes brother, because everything other then Him is "adna" Only He is A'la.

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40 minutes ago, Cool said:

Yes brother, because everything other then Him is "adna" Only He is A'la.

Alhamdullilah, 

So one more question..actually two,  why is this term most high all over the place. Even in Qurans Surah Al A’la is translated as most high? Should this be something Muslims need to change or address more if it is a mistake to refer to Allah as most high because nothing comes close to Allah? 

Whats the difference between Luqman the wise and Allah Al Hakim? Wouldn’t Allah be the most wise? 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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48 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

why is this term most high all over the place. Even in Qurans Surah Al A’la is translated as most high? Should this be something Muslims need to change or address more if it is a mistake to refer to Allah as most high because nothing comes close to Allah? 

:) Al-A'la technically means The High.

If you recite from 2nd verse on wards of chapter 87 (Al-A'la) to verse 7, you can realize why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-A'la.

The "Most" High translation doesn't need correction as long as people believe that there exists many High and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the most high. For example, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is higher than us in every aspect and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Most High for them. 

1 hour ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Whats the difference between Luqman the wise and Allah Al Hakim? Wouldn’t Allah be the most wise? 

The hikmah of Luqman was not his own, he has received it from the One & Only Hakeem which is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the sole owner of hikmah.

يُؤتِي الْحِكْمَةَ مَن يَشَاء وَمَن يُؤْتَ الْحِكْمَةَ فَقَدْ أُوتِيَ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الأَلْبَابِ

2:269

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Alhamdullilah, 

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For example, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is higher than us in every aspect and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Most High for them. 

Wait, I thought “most” High isn’t used at all? Why is it used here? Yes, the Prophets are high  but Allah is most high agreed but Why is it ok to use here. I’m just going by what you said as there is no Most at all. Allah has demonstrated that he is most high over his Prophets. 

 

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The hikmah of Luqman was not his own, he has received it from the One & Only Hakeem which is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the sole owner of hikmah.

Exactly it was not his own but never the less there was knowledge bestowed upon Luqman because Allah gave it to him. The wisdom Allah bestowed upon Luqman wasn’t all of Allah’s wisdom because no man can be equal to or greater than Allah in wisdom and there is no measure or limit to Allah’s wisdom.

Wouldn’t Luqman have to tell people that the knowledge or wisdom Allah gave him is very limited and nothing compared to that of Allah because Allah is Most wise. Allah gave Luqman the title Luqman the wise....so he wasn’t wise at all?  If he is not wise why give him the title of wise? Allah is the sole owner of hikmah but can he not give hikmah to who he want to give it to such as his Prophets, Luqman, Khidr etc. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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3 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Wait, I thought “most” High isn’t used at all? Why is it used here? Yes, the Prophets are high  but Allah is most high agreed but Why is it ok to use here. I’m just going by what you said as there is no Most at all. Allah has demonstrated that he is most high over his Prophets. 

I gave this example to show you why "most high" translation doesn't need correction. There are people who believe there exist many high & therefore they understand Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as "Most High". 

While in reality, only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is "The High" (Al A'la) and else are just Adna. Now I am referring you the manajaat of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), he is no doubt Aliyyun Hakeem & mowla of all believers after Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), but see how he mentions himself before Lord Almighty:

Ant Al-Haye wa ana al-maiyyet (You are The Living and I am the dead)

Ant Al-Ghalib wa ana al-maghloob

Ant Al-Mowla wa ana al-abd

Ant Al-Kabeer wa ana al-sagheer

Ant Al-Rehman wa ana al-marhoom

Ant Al-mo'tee wa ana al- sa'il

This is the peak of human ma'rifah.

3 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

so he wasn’t wise at all?  If he is not wise why give him the title of wise?

He was given the hikmah by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as mentioned in the following verse:

Surah Luqman, Verse 12:
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا لُقْمَانَ الْحِكْمَةَ أَنِ اشْكُرْ لِلَّهِ وَمَن يَشْكُرْ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِيٌّ حَمِيدٌ

And certainly We gave wisdom to Luqman, saying: Be grateful to Allah. And whoever is grateful, he is only grateful for his own soul; and whoever is ungrateful, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, Praised.
(English - Shakir)

Now you can see above the position of recipient and the burden he owes after receiving the hikmah I.e., he need to be grateful to the One who has blessed him with the "khayr e katheer". In other words we can say that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen Luqman (عليه السلام) for manifesting His hikmah. The hikmah of Luqman is the "tajalli" of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in him. 

Why I am praising the Al-Hameed while not praising the hakeem Luqman's hikmah given to him by Allah? Because "all praises" are for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Edited by Cool
Typo

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