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In the Name of God بسم الله

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According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23. And my death, without satsfying God's just judgment against me, would only result in my being sentenced to hell. But Jesus had no personal sin to pay for. So His sinless life and death was acceptable to God as payment in full on my behalf, and I will stand "not guilty" before the Father.

If I was on trial before a human court and sentenced to die a horrible death for all my crimes, it would only satisfy the righteous requirements of the law. It would not make me righteous before God. I would still go to hell. The Bible says none of us is righteous, not one. And Jesus said, no one comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6. Jesus took my sin upon Himself when He died; and He gave me His righteousness, raising from the dead so I can know He will raise me, also.

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Hello @MartyS, I wonder if I can ask a question not related to this thread.

I don't spend any time in Christians forums, but I have always been curious, do Muslims join them and post threads like this?

Please know that I mean no offense, its just in every Islamic forum that I follow or read there are always Christians on them trying to convert folks and I am curious if you have observed Muslims doing this.

Thanks in advance.

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Hi, Funklebits. I honestly can't answer your question, because I'm not on any other online forums, Christian or other. I became interested in this chatsite specifically because I am so interested in the Muslim people. The first Muslims I met were members of the Fulani tribe migrating with their herd near Egbe, Nigeria...such beautiful, sincere people. I had two female companions in our small missionary group from Ilinois, USA. I remember how the Chief insisted we pitch our tent next to his hut, promising to protect us with his life. I remember the beautiful woman we met whose baby was named Baturia, which I believe means "white missionary." Through a translator (who was a born-again Fulani Muslim), she told us her child was born while a missionary was visiting their village. She told us her dream is that Baturia will grow up and marry a missionary some day and move to America. That was in 2012. I hoped to go back there and live and work as a nurse at the mission hospital. But I didn't get to do that. So this chatsite lets me know how my Muslim relatives (in the family of Abraham) are doing in these troubled times. I believe God has a wonderful plan for you. And I don't want to miss it. I hope that is okay.

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46 minutes ago, MartyS said:

I believe God has a wonderful plan for you. And I don't want to miss it. I hope that is okay.

Thank you for that and it is more than OK. I can not tell you how much more fulfilling my life is as a Muslim. Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) plans are magnificent.

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On 1/16/2020 at 4:06 PM, ShiaChat Mod said:

Can’t God simply forgive sins directly? Why this intermediate sacrifice?

I'm sorry that I didn't answer your question before. I realize now I only gave my understanding or application of God's plan. Our Bible gives this explanation of why God willed to send Jesus. I hope this is more helpful to your understanding:

1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the Prophets,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, - Hebrews 1:1-3

Isaiah prophesied Jesus' coming:

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;  - Isaiah 61:1-2

Then David prophesied His coming:

7 Then I said, "Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me: 
8 I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart." 
9 I have told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation; behold, I have not restrained my lips, as you know, O LORD.  - Psalm 40:7-9

And Jesus claimed to fulfill these prophecies:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.
17 And the scroll of the Prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." 
20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
21 And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." - Luke 4:16-21

Also, this would have special meaning for our Jewish relatives:

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"  - Hebrews 10:4-7

Many blessings!

Edited by MartyS
Edited to add reference to blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins.

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On 1/16/2020 at 12:48 PM, MartyS said:

God spoke of the Savior, born of a woman, who would crush Satan (the serpent) in the Garden of Eden...

And your belief is that, that savior was not created from dust? You seems picky in answering the questions my brother! 

On 1/3/2020 at 3:53 PM, Logic1234 said:

And what make you believe that Jesus (عليه السلام) was not created from that dust?

 

On 1/2/2020 at 9:33 PM, MartyS said:

We believe Jesus was the first man from heaven, created by the breath of God and born of a virgin. Thus, He was fully God and fully man. God, without changing His nature as Eternal Heavenly Father and Creator, became a man in human flesh so He could show men the way to being reconciled to Himself through Himself/Jesus.

You have not yet solved this problem. 

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On 1/17/2020 at 8:15 AM, funklebits said:

Hello @MartyS, I wonder if I can ask a question not related to this thread.

I don't spend any time in Christians forums, but I have always been curious, do Muslims join them and post threads like this?

Please know that I mean no offense, its just in every Islamic forum that I follow or read there are always Christians on them trying to convert folks and I am curious if you have observed Muslims doing this.

Thanks in advance.

If you are not a mainstream Christian going to their site, you won't last. My non trinitarian view got me kicked out for asking questions from 3 sites. I didn't even get time to find out what kind of Christians they were, by the results I'd say Calvinist. The one site I managed to stay on for a while, I explained Jihad in all forms, (not just war). It's the same struggle Christians face... but coming from a Muslim supporter it did not go well. The site owner emailed me to stay and explain more, but the site went dead. I killed his site. Maybe it's back up, I haven't checked. Maybe I should.

In my humble opinion, dropping all emotion for a bit, Jesus was born of very divine circumstances, fair to say? Gabriel was there, he didn't really say, like, what the heck? We'd have nothing to argue about.

Up first, "Jesus Christ"  is not first and surname, nor does it follow any genealogical path back to neither either. What I suspected and the Qur'an confirms is that Jesus was the man and Christ was the Savior. Every Prophet hears a voice. (Many false also hear a voice), but Jesus had a voice from the cradle. 

The Qur'an gives no preference, one Prophet over another but Islam does. That aside, every Prophet came to give the same message. You have to wonder who's in charge if 125,000 Prophets have landed yet we are all so divided, Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Not as much between the religions as within. Islam is 600 years behind Christianity and 600 years ago Christians were fighting. Spoiler alert, the modernists win.

There is no way Jesus could be the actual son of God. No more than Adam, or David, or...the rest. In the very first chapter of John it says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God". It's an obvious sign that "sons of God" does not mean literal, ("Not of blood" John 1:13). This is way early in the Gospels btw. it's probably logical to perceive them more as  Prophets, disciples, Supporters of God, but clearly states, those who receive Him... which is not exclusive in any other human decided manner, be it doctrine, dogma, or whatever hoops and hurdles they put between you and God.

Let me repeat the really really only thing that really matters out of everything I ticked out so far..."You and God".

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On 1/18/2020 at 5:53 PM, MartyS said:

Isaiah prophesied Jesus' coming:

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;  - Isaiah 61:1-2

Then David prophesied His coming:

hi all of their predictions can be used for prophecy about coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) even Imam Mahdi (aj) the 12th Shia Imam so you can't limit it just Jesus (Prophet Isa (as)) or any Messiah

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21 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

And your belief is that, that savior was not created from dust? You seems picky in answering the questions my brother! 

 

You have not yet solved this problem. 

There is really no way to compare Jesus with Adam. According to the Bible, Jesus was present with God when Adam (the first man from the Earth) was created. By Jesus, all things were created and all creation is sustained by Him. In obedience to God The Father, Jesus was born and became a man (the second man from heaven). Jesus entered into His own creation to redeem mankind from his rebellion against God, and bring all creation into the fullness of eternal God. Jesus reconciled sinful "man" (all mankind) with his holy God by taking on "man's" sin and dying in his place. Then "man" can become righteous by taking on Jesus' holiness. It is a great mystery, but it was God's plan. It's surely not the way we would have saved the world. But we are not God.

Blessings, Brother.

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18 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi all of their predictions can be used for prophecy about coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) even Imam Mahdi (aj) the 12th Shia Imam so you can't limit it just Jesus (Prophet Isa (as)) or any Messiah

Hi, Ashvazdanghe,

Yes. The only problem came when Jesus claimed to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 61 saying, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:21

I'm pretty sure that is why the Jews tried to stone him that day.

Peace and blessings!

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1 hour ago, MartyS said:

There is really no way to compare Jesus with Adam. According to the Bible, Jesus was present with God when Adam (the first man from the Earth) was created.

Interesting!! 

Please refer me the verse where it is mentioned that Jesus (عليه السلام) was present with God when Adam (عليه السلام) was created. 
 

1 hour ago, MartyS said:

By Jesus, all things were created and all creation is sustained by Him.

And how is that while Jesus himself is a thing & he too need to be sustained? Who created him & is sustaining him? 

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2 hours ago, MartyS said:

Jesus entered into His own creation

 

2 hours ago, MartyS said:

By Jesus, all things were created and all creation is sustained by Him.

:) Perhaps it requires a "BIG brain" to understand these contradictions.

 

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Let me repeat the really really only thing that really matters out of everything I ticked out so far..."You and God".

It has always been this relationship in this world and hereafter, it is all about you and God. God worship and commands are clear for all the religion, There is only one Reality and we are created to manifest His Glory. God created us in His Image means "man arafa nafsahu arafa rabbahu", “Whosoever knows himself knows his Lord.” When we look at ourselves and admit our weakness, needs, we know there is the One who is The Powerful where all power comes from, and there is The One who Gives when we are in constant need. Acknowledging this, we will come to conclusion of His Oneness (because there is only One Reality) and obeying what He gives (all that is justice and goodness) is enough for salvation, that's why the verse of Qur'an stated:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. verse 2:62

 

Edited by Abu Nur

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8 hours ago, MartyS said:

Hi, Ashvazdanghe,

Yes. The only problem came when Jesus claimed to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 61 saying, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:21

I'm pretty sure that is why the Jews tried to stone him that day.

Peace and blessings!

I'm sorry. I have to correct my post. That day, the Jews tried to push Jesus off a cliff for claiming to be God. 

29 And they rose up and drove him out of the town and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw him down the cliff.
30 But passing through their midst, he went away. - Luke 4:29-30

It was a different day they tried to stone him for such blasphemy..

52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the Prophets, yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.'
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the Prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'
55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. - John 8:52-59

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8 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Interesting!! 

Please refer me the verse where it is mentioned that Jesus (عليه السلام) was present with God when Adam (عليه السلام) was created. 
 

And how is that while Jesus himself is a thing & he too need to be sustained? Who created him & is sustaining him? 

Yes. To answer your first question:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

And to answer your second question:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. - Colossians 1:15-17

In my understanding, this means Jesus reflects God so that an invisible God can be seen. He was born as a created man, although He was the Creator. 

7 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Perhaps it requires a "BIG brain" to understand these contradictions.

I agree.

Peace and blessings!

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7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It has always been this relationship in this world and hereafter, it is all about you and God. God worship and commands are clear for all the religion, There is only one Reality and we are created to manifest His Glory. God created us in His Image means "man arafa nafsahu arafa rabbahu", “Whosoever knows himself knows his Lord.” When we look at ourselves and admit our weakness, needs, we know there is the One who is The Powerful where all power comes from, and there is The One who Gives when we are in constant need. Acknowledging this, we will come to conclusion of His Oneness (because there is only One Reality) and obeying what He gives (all that is justice and goodness) is enough for salvation, that's why the verse of Qur'an stated:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. verse 2:62

 

Thank you. Your words remind me of Jesus' words about us knowing God.

7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! - Matthew 7:7-11

Blessings!

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2 hours ago, MartyS said:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hello MartyS!

In the above, it is mentioned that "word is God". Lets rephrase the sentence after knowing the value of "word":

"In the beginning was the God and the God was with God, and the God was God"

Does this make sense?

Now second point, how can beginning be the word while it was with someone else already existing as Pure Existence? And why not that pure existence has "words" with Him instead of just a word?

Please elaborate.

Greetings

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Thank you, Cool, for giving me your feedback and issues with the Bible. I appreciate the dialogue. I will humbly try to explain the Christian's view.

We also call the Bible the Word of God. It is more than history and poetry and philosophy. It is never the opinion of men. Rather, every word was inspired by God's Holy Spirit across dozens of writers. We believe it is living and powerful and "sharper than a two-edged sword." It pierces a man's soul like a sword dividing between the marrow and the bone. It is profitable for teaching and correction and will make one wise. It is the final answer to every debate and the solution to every problem. It reveals God's character and His will. Jesus could aptly be called the living Word of God. He is the exact representation of the Father, in human form. He was perfectly obedient to the Father and His will, and completely fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about the Messiah that God had promised to send into the world to rescue mankind.

God is Spirit. But nothing can keep God from enjoying and delighting in Himself as a father delights in his son. Noone can keep Him from revealing Himself in human or angelic forms or in dreams or visions. He is God. He makes His own rules. We can accept them or rebel against them, as the fallen angels did. We can believe in Him and His Son or reject them, as when men crucified the One who came to Earth to save them.

God is also sovreign. All things, since before time began, have unfolded according to His plan. But the Prophets of old did not understand their dreams and visions that were kept until the end times, like the books of Daniel and Revelation. We do not fear in these troubled times, for God has revealed Himself and His plan for this heavens and Earth and the ones that are yet to come in His written Word and by His Son, Jesus.

Blessings!

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15 hours ago, MartyS said:

Yes. To answer your first question:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

 

Hello My Friend! 

Isn't it correct to say that "the beginning is God" who possess the word(s)? Word(s) cannot be called the beginning technically & logically. And you will find in Qur'an that "God is the First & the Last (Huwal Awwal Huwal Aakhir).   

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)

Referring to verse 3, technically & logically, "all things" cannot be made through him as he himself requires someone who has made him. 
Technically & Logically, "a word" cannot be called as God simply because word begins to exist while God does not. So I think you need accept that Jesus (عليه السلام) is not pre-existent in the same way God existed. 

(John 17:3) And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
(1Tim 6:16) who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,

What would be your response to these technical & logical problems?

16 hours ago, MartyS said:

And to answer your second question:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. - Colossians 1:15-17

In my understanding, this means Jesus reflects God so that an invisible God can be seen. He was born as a created man, although He was the Creator.

"I will set his hand on the sea and his right hand on the rivers. He shall cry to me, “You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation!” I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the Earth." (Psalm 89:25-27)

Here the firstborn of God, and the highest of the kings of the Earth is presented as coming in the future, not as existing in the present.

And in rest of the verses we have the same technical & logical problems we have already discussed above. 

Peace! 

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One of the biggest problems between Christians and Muslims is God having a son, namely Jesus. There is no possible way God could become human, nor could Jesus be His physical son. I't just that simple. How the doctrine came around was not so simple. It took an average of 300 men something like 7 years of arguing and one murder to come up with the duality of God and Jesus as one, another 300 some years to decide God was a trinity, adding the Spirit.

The closest I see to a trinity is right from the start and does not include Jesus. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. In verse two it introduces the Spirit of the Lord, and in the 3rd verse God says "Let there be light" and there was light, created before the sun was created. This light is the connection to the beginning and to Jesus. John the Baptist came to bare witness to the light. Jesus was only the vessel of that light. He did say, "I am the light of the world".
Many things Jesus said didn't seem to make sense, reason being the light often spoke through Him, and being a created being from the beginning it would not be wrong to say, "Before Abraham was, I am." That phrase is often used as proof Jesus is God, but go back to the burning bush and you'll see that Jehovah was there, the Angel of the Lord was there, and Elohim was there.

Exodus 3:15 KJV "... Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you..." 

Literal Hebrew text says, Say, The Elohim of Moses, say to the children of Israel, The Jehovah Elohim, father of Elohim, Elohim of Abraham, Elohim of Isaac, and Elohim of Jacob. 

Jehovah

Word: DEDI  Pronounce: yeh-ho-vaw'

Strong: H3068 Orig: from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069. H1961 H3050 H3069

Use: TWOT-484a Proper Name Grk Strong: G1203 G2316 G2962

Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136

 

Elohim,

Word: MIDL@ Pronounce: el-o-heem'

Strong: H430 Orig: plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. H433

Use: TWOT-93c Noun Masculine Grk Strong: G2304 G2316 G2316 G2962

1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive-singular meaning)
2a) God, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

As you can see, these are two different beings. Elohim, the first created being, subject and subservient to the one true God, Indwelled the person of Jesus to proclaim the Word of God. 

The Word is the word of God, never changing since the beginning, so in essence, the word of God, is God.

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On 1/22/2020 at 2:05 AM, Logic1234 said:

Hello My Friend! 

Isn't it correct to say that "the beginning is God" who possess the word(s)? Word(s) cannot be called the beginning technically & logically. And you will find in Qur'an that "God is the First & the Last (Huwal Awwal Huwal Aakhir).   
 


This “Word” or “Logos” mentioned here in Genesis is exactly the same as (Kun)“Be!” In the Qur'an.  And “Be” is precisely (when seen from within the Islamic Framework) the “Nafas Ar-Rahman (the Breath of the All-Merciful)” From which, in which, and through which, all of the world or cosmos (Kawn) exists.  Each creature is an articulated or spoken word within this “Merciful Breath” or the Breath of “Be” (the “Word of all “words” or the ”Comprehensive Word”).  This is why the Word is also (the reality of the Qur'an) This “Be” is the eternal command of God.  It is a barzakh (an isthmus between God and all of existence.  It is the Merciful Womb (Rahm) within which the entire world is nourished and sustained.  This “Logos” is who Muslims would identify as “the Reality of Muhammad” or the “Muhammadan Light” (Haqiqah Muhammadiyyah or Noor Muhammadiy) as He was “nothing but a Mercy to all of Existence”.  (Illa Rahmatul Lil-Alameen).

The Breath of the All-Merciful has its origin within the Divine Speaker.  In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God.  The Logos or Word in Christianity is not identical to the Essence of God.  The Logos is rather the Principle through which God brought everything into existence.  It is the “Image of God”.  This is why everyone carries within himself the stamp of this “Image of God” (everyone is “made in the image of God”).  

Quote

Here the firstborn of God, and the highest of the kings of the Earth is presented as coming in the future, not as existing in the present.
 

Same reason why when the Prophet (S) said “I was a Prophet when Adam was between water and mud” he was not referring to himself as an individual even though it appears as if an individual uttered those words.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 1/22/2020 at 12:06 AM, Son of Placid said:

Elohim, the first created being, subject and subservient to the one true God, Indwelled the person of Jesus to proclaim the Word of God. 

 

16 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

“I was a Prophet when Adam was between water and mud”

Being indwelled with this light, which was in the beginning would understand life and would explain how Jesus was able to mold clay into a bird. 

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On 1/22/2020 at 1:06 AM, Son of Placid said:

The Word is the word of God, never changing since the beginning, so in essence, the word of God, is God.

Do you also believe John, beloved disciple of Jesus, was speaking of Jesus when he said,

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1:14

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Good morning MartyS,

^ Since we are having a morning Sunday class together lol

A question for you:

You use to be a nun or a priest, because you pretty much sound like one? 

 

Edited by ShiaMahamed

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22 hours ago, MartyS said:

Do you also believe John, beloved disciple of Jesus, was speaking of Jesus when he said,

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1:14

He was also speaking of the spirit that indwelled Jesus. I should have been more clear on the connection of the two. We only hear about "The light" in the beginning, prior to the creation of the sun and Jesus saying He was the light of the world. The Word was very active in the Torah, more than just a voice, or a book but "light" and "word" don't really come together until John 1. 

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On 1/16/2020 at 2:06 PM, ShiaChat Mod said:

Can’t God simply forgive sins directly? Why this intermediate sacrifice?

Hi! I'm new to this thread but I wanted to jump in a little on the discussion :)

Because God is a just God. So a punishment for sin must be made. However, He knew that only He could survive the severe punishment for the detestable sins of all the people who had ever lived. So because He loves us and desires for us to have a relationship with Him, He bore the punishment Himself.

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1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

He was also speaking of the spirit that indwelled Jesus. I should have been more clear on the connection of the two. We only hear about "The light" in the beginning, prior to the creation of the sun and Jesus saying He was the light of the world. The Word was very active in the Torah, more than just a voice, or a book but "light" and "word" don't really come together until John 1. 

I still wasn't very clear. Light was created after the heavens and the Earth, but was the first being. If at any point one was to be "born", this would be it. The Word played an active role in the Torah. In the Psalms you will find the relation between word and light.  John referred to the Word, but went on to call Jesus the light.

I'm trying to recall any other reference to Jesus as the Word. 

Before I walk away too long...

Jesus is referred to, was called, and called Himself the light on multiple occasions. This light is also referenced as the light of heaven, needing no sun nor moon.

Edited by Son of Placid

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6 hours ago, naseemjoon said:

So because He loves us and desires for us to have a relationship with Him, He bore the punishment Himself.

hi and welcome , anyway in Shia Islam we have more examples of sufferings more than Jesus such as Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & lady Fatima (sa) &her daughter lady Zeynab.

Diana Mills: "Imam Hussain was similar to Jesus Christ"

Antoine bara: You shi’a do not appreciate the value of Imam Hussain!

نتیجه تصویری برای ‪http://digitale- sammlungen.ulb.uni-bonn.de/image/view/47451w=1000‬‏

https://standwithdignity.org/article/antoine-bara-you-Shia-do-not-appreciate-the-value-of-Imam-Hussein/

Imam Hussain((عليه السلام)) in the Bible
November 3, 2017/in Featured, Other Religions /
SHAFAQNA-

Numerous passages of the Bible have foretold the coming of Prophet Muhammad, the revelation of the holy Qur'an, Imam Ali, Imam Hussain, and Imam Mahdi from Mecca. Many early Islamic events were prophesied in the Bible but they all were hidden and lost in the translations. Moses, David, Solomon, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, and many other Biblical Prophets have talked about Islam, and they have foretold Prophet Muhammad and his household by name, in numerous places. The truth which exists in the Bible but should be uncovered.

Imam Hussain((عليه السلام)) in the Bible:
New Testament Pe[Edited Out]ta (the Aramaic Bible) mentions Imam Hussain((عليه السلام)) by name in a few places, such as Luke 11:21-22, Matthew 3:11 and Acts 2:7. Jesus, John the Baptist and Simon (Peter) pbut had spoken plainly about Imam Hussain((عليه السلام)). The Psalm chapter 19, talks about a man from Hashemite moving toward Kufa. It mentions that this event is not hidden from mê-ḥam-mā-ṯōw (Muhammad). In addition, David((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) mourned for the calamity of Ashura; as he mentions it in Psalm 25:17[p 218-220 ref.]. Nevertheless, the name is lost in the translations, as usual. In all cases, the name is translated to “great”, “greater”, “holy one”, and so on.


Here I just scrutiny the Gospel of Luke[11:21-22] and martyrdom of Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام)) foretold by Jesus((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). For more information about what John the Baptist and Simon(pbut) have said about Imam Hussain((عليه السلام)), please refer to the reference book(p 256-261).

Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), according to the Gospel of Luke, is explaining that Hussain((عليه السلام)) who possess all the pureness, will be brutally attacked and martyred. His belongings will be looted and his body will be cut in pieces. However, the translators have interpreted the entire statement irrelevant to the actual meaning of the verse. This has become more noticeable by translating the word “Hussain” to “ stronger”. In the Pe[Edited Out]ta Gospel of Luke, Hussain is written (ḥasīn). (See the figure below)

Luke [11:21, 22]

Rendered translation
21 For when Hussain is armed, guarding his house, his possessions are safe
22 Indeed he who is Hussain shall endure, all the pureness belongs to him, all his armor will be taken, he is confident, his belongings and body to be cut in pieces.
ḥasīn is the cognate of an Arabic word that means “beautiful”. This is indeed حسین / حسن Hasan / Hussain. They were the sons of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)).
Below is a picture of the Gospel of Luke [11:21-32] in Aramaic.Note the word ḥasīn in verse 22.[Image location: University of Bonn, Germany at [http://digitale- sammlungen.ulb.uni-bonn.de/image/view/47451w=1000]]

https://en.shafaqna.com/55381/Imam-hussaina-s-bible/

https://rahyafteha.ir/en/3891/Imam-hussaina-s-bible-2/

نتیجه تصویری برای ‪http://digitale- sammlungen.ulb.uni-bonn.de/image/view/47451w=1000‬‏

نتیجه تصویری برای ‪http://digitale- sammlungen.ulb.uni-bonn.de/image/view/47451w=1000‬‏

https://rahyafteha.ir/en/3891/Imam-hussaina-s-bible-2/

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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No, if you read Bible you'll never say that Jesus is God...

Mark 10

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

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