Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
tri-star

Al Kafi 5 and Women

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Which hadith in particular? I would say that we shouldn't consider every hadith to be the absolute truth. We're not like Sunnis who consider Sahih Bukhari to be error-free. 

But sometimes we may not apply reason and the tools for understanding a hadith properly. It's good to be careful and not reject it outright. Raising questions is alright but we shouldn't have this arrogant attitude of rejecting any hadith which doesn't appeal to us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Which hadith in particular? I would say that we shouldn't consider every hadith to be the absolute truth. We're not like Sunnis who consider Sahih Bukhari to be error-free. 

But sometimes we may not apply reason and the tools for understanding a hadith properly. It's good to be careful and not reject it outright. Raising questions is alright but we shouldn't have this arrogant attitude of rejecting any hadith which doesn't appeal to us. 

[ 25372 ] 3 ـ وعنهم ، عن أحمد ، عن يعقوب بن يزيد ، عن رجل من اصحابنا يكنى ابا عبدالله رفعه ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) : في خلاف النساء البركة . 

3 – And from them from Ahmad from Yaqub b. Yazid from a man from our companions who has the kunya AbuAbdillah going up from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: In contradicting (khilaf, variance, opposing) women is the blessing.

[ 25371 ] 2 ـ وعنهم ، عن أحمد ، عن الجاموراني ، عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة عن صندل ، عن ابن مسكان ، عن سليمان بن خالد قال : سمعت أبا عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) يقول : اياكم ومشاورة النساء فإنّ فيهن الضعف والوهن والعجز . 

2 – And from them from al-Jamurani from al-Hasan b. Ali b. Abi Hamza from Sandal from Ibn Muskan from Sulayman b. Khalid.  He said: I heard AbuAbdillah عليه السلام saying: Beware you of consulting women, for in them is weakness, feebleness and incapacity.

[ 25372 ] 3 ـ وعنهم ، عن أحمد ، عن يعقوب بن يزيد ، عن رجل من اصحابنا يكنى ابا عبدالله رفعه ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) : في خلاف النساء البركة . 

3 – And from them from Ahmad from Yaqub b. Yazid from a man from our companions who has the kunya AbuAbdillah going up from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: In contradicting (khilaf, variance, opposing) women is the blessing.

I don't have citations for them but here's a link I found. 

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1206_وسائل-الشيعة-آل-البيت-الحر-العاملي-ج-٢٠/الصفحة_180

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, tri-star said:

I have seen some pretty sexist hadith from al kafi regarding women being feeble minded, and not to consult women. Are these hadith true and what is the basis for them?

It relates to the wicked women, their mind is feeble and their consultation leads to destruction. So, take hadith by considering kinds of woman. Hadith are read in accordance with various other parameters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

It relates to the wicked women, their mind is feeble and their consultation leads to destruction. So, take hadith by considering kinds of woman. Hadith are read in accordance with various other parameters.

Actually, it seems to relate, in general, to the fact that men, ceteris paribus, are biologically suited for the public sphere and women for the domestic. For this reason and others, there is a partition between the sexes (not “genders,” a postmodernist confabulation) in terms of sphere and interaction. For example, there are well-known hadith to the effect that women are not suited for high-level and/or visible political positions, since these are not their biological sphere and create a host of other complications that run contrary to Islam. That is why the ideal Islamic woman is submissive and restricted to training the Islamic household in terms of piety and upbringing. Cf. the standards that the Prophet’s wives were expected to abide by. Even in Iran, relatively few women follow the Islamic standards that will be incumbent on people at the advent of the Islamic world-government under the Hidden Imam. Simply put, truly Islamic behaviour is largely absent from the current world-order insofar as the matter of the sexes, their roles, and their duties/responsibilities is concerned. So the hadith in question does not seem to relate solely to “wicked” women, but to women generally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/6/2019 at 3:36 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

If you are looking for 20th and 21st century politically-correct ahadith on women, you will not find them in Shi'a or Sunni books. 

Is it possible that our hadith compilers just copied from Sunni books?

Because our hadith books were written after our current Imam had gone into concealment in 256 Hijri.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Northwest said:

Actually, it seems to relate, in general, to the fact that men, ceteris paribus, are biologically suited for the public sphere and women for the domestic. For this reason and others, there is a partition between the sexes (not “genders,” a postmodernist confabulation) in terms of sphere and interaction. For example, there are well-known hadith to the effect that women are not suited for high-level and/or visible political positions, since these are not their biological sphere and create a host of other complications that run contrary to Islam. That is why the ideal Islamic woman is submissive and restricted to training the Islamic household in terms of piety and upbringing. Cf. the standards that the Prophet’s wives were expected to abide by. Even in Iran, relatively few women follow the Islamic standards that will be incumbent on people at the advent of the Islamic world-government under the Hidden Imam. Simply put, truly Islamic behaviour is largely absent from the current world-order insofar as the matter of the sexes, their roles, and their duties/responsibilities is concerned. So the hadith in question does not seem to relate solely to “wicked” women, but to women generally.

One of the excessive habit of female is overthinking that is why Aziz-e-Misr said: "The Makr (psychological traps) of women are great". Excess of everything is bad. If Allah (عزّ وجلّ) prevented you from something then it's for your own good sister, do not overthink and give it a bad shape.

:hahaha:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, baqar said:

Is it possible that our hadith compilers just copied from Sunni books?

There is really no evidence for the fact that Shi'a scholars were simply mass-copying Sunni traditions and attributing them to the Imams. I've seen this claim made by some recent speakers in a means to avoid dealing with these issues, but this is nothing but a cop out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Justice
2 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

There is really no evidence for the fact that Shi'a scholars were simply mass-copying Sunni traditions and attributing them to the Imams. I've seen this claim made by some recent speakers in a means to avoid dealing with these issues, but this is nothing but a cop out. 

Is it a possibility that some reliable individuals really weren't? Some sought prestige and reverse engineered chains to the Imams based on commonly heard traditions or rip-offs of Sunni traditions? 

Is the Earth placed upon a whale? Does astrology impact real world events? Should we conveniently use colourful metaphors are what are otherwise , if taken at face value clearly incorrect statements about the Earth and universe and how things work, which coincidentally of course mirror ancient world myths and misunderstandings? 

Sunnis, with a far more rigorous process have got it badly wrong with most of their narrators. I'd say we have with a greater proportion than we'd like to admit. I don't know the truth and leave it to God though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

There is really no evidence for the fact that Shi'a scholars were simply mass-copying Sunni traditions and attributing them to the Imams. I've seen this claim made by some recent speakers in a means to avoid dealing with these issues, but this is nothing but a cop out. 

But what about the quality of the narrators?

Is it possible that there were fabrications by our narrators (intentional or not intentional) which escaped notice by the compilers?

After all, Shia narrators were not all saints. Were they?   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, baqar said:

But what about the quality of the narrators?

Is it possible that there were fabrications by our narrators (intentional or not intentional) which escaped notice by the compilers?

After all, Shia narrators were not all saints. Were they?   

One needs to prove this, otherwise its just a far-fetched possibility. The quantity of the narrations is too much and there are too many different narrators for someone to come and say everything was just made up, especially during a time when all of this was pretty normal in the Muslim world. I mean, what makes your argument that all of this could just be made up worth more than someone else just coming and saying all of the narrations on Imamah were also all just made up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

One needs to prove this

If my understanding is right, every hadith passed through many different hands before it reached the compiler's desk.

I find it difficult to believe that everyone of those carriers was an absolutely honest person. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, baqar said:

If my understanding is right, every hadith passed through many different hands before it reached the compiler's desk.

I find it difficult to believe that everyone of those carriers was an absolutely honest person. 

No one is saying everyone who pops up in a chain was an absolute honest person, but you have to actually study the traditions and their chains to make this decision. Even though I personally lean to a very strict criteria for attaining conviction in the traditions, even then, the quantity and wide variety of narrators on this matter, which definitely includes honest and reliable narrators, gives one certainty that there was a general phenomenon as such even if the details of it may not be that convincing. Also there is this false idea that everyone was just orally transmitting traditions and hence every tradition was subject to the problem of "Chinese Whispers" - this is far from true. Many of the earlier companions had documented and written these traditions down and hence many of these names mentioned in the chains were not always orally transmitting rather they were passing down the book to the next narrator, or orally narrating and dictating from the book directly to the next person.

Even modern Muslim reformists don't deny the readability of these traditions and the existence of such a phenomenon. They take the discussion more so towards contextualizing, historicizing and questioning absolute nature of these laws.

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People are viewing this through a contemporary lens. This is not how it works. Why shouldn’t men consult women during those old times? Because women were generally uneducated (not using this word in a bad manner). This is why religion studies is no walk in the park. It requires historical knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2019 at 11:36 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

If you are looking for 20th and 21st century politically-correct ahadith on women, you will not find them in Shi'a or Sunni books. 

Salam.

do we have Reliable Sunni Hadith about the Prophet (S) being “sexist”?

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...