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Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Three divisions among Shias today?

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16 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

75604025_1315073935330956_15059690575835 77037435_1315073928664290_17764513876226

Religious laws should not be self made.
Believing that Marje are at the level at which Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Aima (عليه السلام) were in there times
and believing Marje to be Ulil Amr.

Akhabris do this because extremists believe in these kind of things and call anyone with Title of "Imam"  and they have got hadiths on that
which I can't present since I don’t have them.

not only akhbari curse, even followers of Marjae curse each other. like
Followers of Allama Sadiq Shirazi

Would like to mention that akhbaris disagree that main stream fuqaha were usooli
especially old ones

Dear brother, it seems to me that this book is written by a person who is either not aware about infallibility or has deliberately written such things without the consent of Marajas to deceive innocent people so that it may provide plea to others anti-marjaiya people so that they can falsely make propaganda about them. No any Maraja claimed to be Ulool Amr for claiming it would directly depose a Muslim from his faith no matter how pious human he be among ordinary ones. 

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20 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

whats your opinion on these things. Why are we fighting each other? 

You are all fighting because despite beleiving in a present infallible Imam, you have no clear guidance, and have ended up in the same position as majority of Muslims. With the question "how do we run the Muslim world". And now that every one has access to material and opinions, your clergy can't just use the "just listen to us approach".

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First of all, to my understanding all the major marjaei accept the concept of WF, even seyyed Shirazi.

The only thing that they are not all agreed upon is how the application of it should be done. So saying that there is a pro-WF and an anti-WF group is completely wrong unless the pro-WF group are all the Shias and the anti-WF group are the akbaris.

If your referring to pro-WF as the way they apply WF in Iran then please clarify it.

I am happy to see that you are clear and honest about being an akbari and I wish others who are lowkey akbaris would also be honest about their stance.

On 11/27/2019 at 6:49 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

4. They believe that there are Ommisions (tehreef) in Qur'an (Book of Allah)

This is news to me.

If I understand you correct, then your saying that akbaris believe that the holy Qur'an that we kiss and hold on top of our heads during laylatul qadr is not the authentic Qur'an?

Also, since akbaris don’t have a marja, who do they pay khums to? Or do they not pay khums as well?

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My immediate family has become usooli (WF) and I have also listened to scholars who are WF. These people apply WF principle to everything. They say that even if there are 2 people present, one of them has to be a leader. Thus every family has to have a leader.

In my family, my sister has been appointed leader and even my parents obey her. The problem is the belief that appointed leader has the same authority that an infallible Imam has. So one person in family has authority over all the money each family member earns, that person even has the authority over people choosing their life partner or someone's decision to get divorce. If my sister wants me to move to another house or another country, she has the right to decide that since that is the kind of authority infallible Imams have. Also, WF supporters are kind of violent people, so I have decided that I am definitely not WF.

I am not sure about the other two. But WF people believe in leadership and it has practical applications in big life decisions.  I am not giving a family member authority over all the money I earn or who I choose for marriage. And yes, they do believe that Syed Khamenei is Hussain of our time.

One more thing I noticed is that my sister has started trying to force hijab on all women among relatives who don't wear hijab. But she doesn't follow any rules of social hijab and she has so much power over men. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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15 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

. Thus every family has to have a leader. In my family, my sister has been appointed leader and even my parents obey her.

Lool This cracked me up but what came after about her authority is disturbing !!!

Quote

The problem is the belief that appointed leader has the same authority that an infallible Imam has. So one person in family has authority over all the money each family member earns, that person even has the authority over people choosing their life partner or someone's decision to get divorce. If my sister wants me to move to another house or another country, she has the right to decide that since that is the kind of authority infallible Imams have. Also, WF supporters are kind of violent people, so I have decided that I am definitely not WF. I am not sure about the other two. But WF people believe in leadership and it has practical applications in big life decisions.  I am not giving a family member authority over all the money I earn or who I choose for marriage. 

I don't think your family have understood the concept or are applying it properly. And by the way, no one on this planet has the right to force you to marry someone you don't want. 

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14 hours ago, Moalfas said:

Lool This cracked me up but what came after about her authority is disturbing !!!

I don't think your family have understood the concept or are applying it properly. And by the way, no one on this planet has the right to force you to marry someone you don't want. 

When people have ulterior motives, they can take any religious teaching and twist it according to their own liking. Since last year, my local center has become influenced by WF and I am constantly hearing two messages that every contry, community or even family must have only one leader and that leader has absolute authority over its followers. 

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5 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

This is news to me.

If I understand you correct, then your saying that akbaris believe that the holy Qur'an that we kiss and hold on top of our heads during laylatul qadr is not the authentic Qur'an?

Also, since akbaris don’t have a marja, who do they pay khums to? Or do they not pay khums as well?

They believe in terms of omission only.
Just that some verses are missing, doesn't make something in-authentic.
They accept and reject hadith based on Qur'an thus you can't claim according to them
Qur'an is in-authentic.

I have no research in topic "Khums" and also there is debate over giving khums to Marja.

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2 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

When people have ulterior motives, they can take any religious teaching and twist it according to their own liking. Since last year, my local center has become influenced by WF and I am constantly hearing two messages that every contry, community or even family must have only one leader and that leader has absolute authority over its followers. 

And that leader from Adam (عليه السلام) to Muhammad Al Madhi (عليه السلام) was choosen by Allah not by people
This line we've been using since ages to counter Sunnis and refute there self made leaders.

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7 hours ago, Warilla said:

You are all fighting because despite beleiving in a present infallible Imam, you have no clear guidance, and have ended up in the same position as majority of Muslims. With the question "how do we run the Muslim world". And now that every one has access to material and opinions, your clergy can't just use the "just listen to us approach".

You have no right to say that.
Also reason of fight is that some people have left Qur'an and Hadith in Shia Islam
Thus used personal opinion over hadiths.
And this is not the fault of Imam (عليه السلام)
its fault of people who deviated from his true teachings.

Also you don't believe in Imams right?
But Qur'an has clear guidance right?
so why you Sunnis make up more than 80% of divisions among Muslims?

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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12 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

They believe in terms of omission only.
Just that some verses are missing, doesn't make something in-authentic.
They accept and reject hadith based on Qur'an thus you can't claim according to them
Qur'an is in-authentic.

I have no research in topic "Khums" and also there is debate over giving khums to Marja.

What do you mean?

It's either the original as in authentic or its unoriginal as in fake. If you mean to say that there's ayahs intentionally removed from the holy Qur'an, then that would mean it's been manipulated so the holy Qur'an that we use would then be classified as a fake version of it.

So which one is it according to akbari ideology?

So you don’t pay khums in other words?

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2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

You have no right to say that.
.Also you don't believe in Imams right?
But Qur'an has clear guidance right?
so why you Sunnis make up more than 80% of divisions among Muslims?

Of course I have a right. I might be wrong but I have a right. Sunni have so many division because they also don't know who to follow.At the present time. There is no Islam state united under 1 leadership for Sunni, and no available Imam for Shia. Both are in the same situation. Follow scholars to interpret religion through hadith and Qur'an. So who to follow and how much power they have will always be discussed/debated/argued/fought over.

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9 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

What do you mean?

It's either the original as in authentic or its unoriginal as in fake. If you mean to say that there's ayahs intentionally removed from the holy Qur'an, then that would mean it's been manipulated so the holy Qur'an that we use would then be classified as a fake version of it.

So which one is it according to akbari ideology?

So you don’t pay khums in other words?

where were you when I started the topic of Tehreef in Qur'an.
lets not discuss it here since its a general forum, not specific

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47 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Of course I have a right. I might be wrong but I have a right. Sunni have so many division because they also don't know who to follow.At the present time. There is no Islam state united under 1 leadership for Sunni, and no available Imam for Shia. Both are in the same situation. Follow scholars to interpret religion through hadith and Qur'an. So who to follow and how much power they have will always be discussed/debated/argued/fought over.

who told you that Imam of Shia is unavaliable?

Sahih Muslim Book of Government:

 

The Caliphate will remain among the Quraish even if only two persons are left (on the Earth),
 
وَحَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ يُونُسَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَاصِمُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ يَزَالُ هَذَا الأَمْرُ فِي قُرَيْشٍ مَا بَقِيَ مِنَ النَّاسِ اثْنَانِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference  : Sahih Muslim 1820
In-book reference  : Book 33, Hadith 4
USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Book 20, Hadith 4476

 

Its hadith of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and whatever he says, is from Allah Almighty
He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says amr will remain among Quraish even if two persons are left on Earth.
I would like to question, even if two are left, one will be Ulil-Amr
Today we have millions yet living without an Ulil-Amr?

Imam e Zamana (عليه السلام) is Gaib only and indeed he is guiding us.
Just like sun light reaches the people even through clouds
But you might say, 

but but... practically your Imam isn't guiding you.
I may question, how is Allah guiding you today?
through books? Qur'an? Hadith?
So is our Imam (عليه السلام).

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9 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

What do you mean?

It's either the original as in authentic or its unoriginal as in fake. If you mean to say that there's ayahs intentionally removed from the holy Qur'an, then that would mean it's been manipulated so the holy Qur'an that we use would then be classified as a fake version of it.

So which one is it according to akbari ideology?

So you don’t pay khums in other words?

just for example
just answer this question

Did Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) say Man kunto Maula fahaza Aliyun Maula? 
yes or no.
do we get this hadith like this?
yes or no simple answer needed!

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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

who told you that Imam of Shia is unavaliable?

If he is available how do you contact him to get an answers for questions. For example what day Ramadhan is and the ruling for the moon sighting in your country ? Or the ruling on modern ethical problems such as cloning or gender surgery.

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5 minutes ago, Warilla said:

If he is available how do you contact him to get an answers for questions. For example what day Ramadhan is and the ruling for the moon sighting in your country ? Or the ruling on modern ethical problems such as cloning or gender surgery.

he (عليه السلام) told us that in era of is gaibat refer to narrators of our hadith. they are hujjat upon you.
we have ahadiths from Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Aima (عليه السلام) and Qur'an with commentry of Masomeen (عليه السلام)
what else you call guidance?

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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

he (عليه السلام) told us that in era of is gaibat refer to narrators of our hadith. they are hujjat upon you.
we have ahadiths from Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Aima (عليه السلام) and Qur'an with commentry of Masomeen (عليه السلام)
what else you call guidance?

Exactly so Sunni Shia are in the same position. Use fallible scholars to  interpret hadith and Qur'an. And no clear guidance on how much power and influence these scholars have. And that's why there are divisions with Sunni and Shia. Which I believe was the original question.

Sunni Four schools, mutazilite, asharite etc

Shia usooli akhbari wilyatal faqi debate.

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@Warilla
what do you have?
Qiyas? Self explanation of verses? tafseer using your own aql?

While Allah in Qur'an says
3:7
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
 

No one except him know interpretation of Book except Allah.
None of your Molvis calim any of your sahabi was a Masoom and choosen representative of Allah
Thus if they do tafseer by themselves, how can we accept it?
also you are people of Qiyas, why should I follow people like you who follow
meanings of Qur'an given by common people using there own thinking?

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8 hours ago, Warilla said:

Exactly so Sunni Shia are in the same position. Use fallible scholars to  interpret hadith and Qur'an. And no clear guidance on how much power and influence these scholars have. And that's why there are divisions with Sunni and Shia. Which I believe was the original question.

Sunni Four schools, mutazilite, asharite etc

Shia usooli akhbari wilyatal faqi debate.

Are masomeen fallible?
Also refer to "narrators of our hadith"
means refer to those who give you hadiths not their self derived laws.
Who ever deviates, its his choice,
but to say that Shias are in same position? No!
Since hadiths are there and Qur'an is there.
and Rules given by Masomeen (عليه السلام) are there.
All we have is from Allah.
Not Qiyas of some common people

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Even in presence of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), people were there who saw him, heard him but never believed what he said.
And deviated from his teachings.

Same goes here.
If someone brings a new thing out of no where
You can't blame whole Mazhab for that

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Just now, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Are masomeen fallible?
Also refer to "narrators of our hadith"
means refer to those who give you hadiths not their self derived laws.
Who ever deviates, its his choice,
but to say that Shias are in same position? No!
Since hadiths are there and Qur'an is there.
and Rules given by Masomeen (عليه السلام) are there.
All we have is from Allah.
Not Qiyas of some common people

Sunni  follow the infallible the Prophet. But who tells us which hadith are correct/real ..fallible scholars of course

Shia follow infallible Imams and Prophet. But who tells us which hadith are real/ correct fallible scholars of course.

Who derive laws using Qur'an and hadith of Masoom ..... fallible scholars for Sunni and Shia.

See it's the same.

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4 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Sunni  follow the infallible the Prophet. But who tells us which hadith are correct/real ..fallible scholars of course

Shia follow infallible Imams and Prophet. But who tells us which hadith are real/ correct fallible scholars of course.

Who derive laws using Qur'an and hadith of Masoom ..... fallible scholars for Sunni and Shia.

See it's the same.

For your kind info,
laws of authentication of hadith are given to Shia by Infallible Imams.
and laws have already been given by Imams (عليه السلام) since he said everything is in kitab and Sunnah. thus no one actually derieve laws like you do
correct that!

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

For your kind info,
laws of authentication of hadith are given to Shia by Infallible Imams.
and laws have already been given by Imams (عليه السلام) since he said everything is in kitab and Sunnah. thus no one actually derieve laws like you do
correct that!

Whats the law on gender surgery. Can you give me a hadith 

And if laws are clear why do Shia scholar differ on moon sighting ?

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8 hours ago, Warilla said:

Whats the law on gender surgery. Can you give me a hadith 

And if laws are clear why do Shia scholar differ on moon sighting ?

Islam is simple.

Imam (عليه السلام) was asked on Rad of ijtehad and Qiyas and he (عليه السلام) prohibited it.

For the thing that we have no nas, we are quite in such matters. Since we aren't allowed to give any personal opinion.

For this we will wait for our Imam (عليه السلام).

And the issues you quoted, do these issues affect basis of deen Islam?

Which we call Usool.

Answer is nope. Then its pretty much useless to ask such questions since they don't affect Islam anyways

Now if you force your argument by saying that:

Thus Imam can’t guide you...

Then I would say,

If its really true, then perhaps Allah sent verse of completion of deen but never actually completed it for us did he. Wouldn't that point to it that Islam has incomplete laws?

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10 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Whats the law on gender surgery. Can you give me a hadith 

And if laws are clear why do Shia scholar differ on moon sighting ?

Also drinking is prohibted. Right?

Now if you find a mew chemical today for drinking and then say your Imam never prohibited drinking this chemical did he?

That wouldn't make any sense.

Our fuqha study tons of hadith and they remain within the bounds and then issue rulings on things today. At the end, the asl of that ruling is from Imam e Masoom (عليه السلام). criteria is defined by Imam e Masoom (عليه السلام).

Big difference between taking rulings by qiyas and non-masoom

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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

If its really true, then perhaps Allah sent verse of completion of deen but never actually completed it for us did he. Wouldn't that point to it that Islam has incomplete laws?

It's completed we just all require fallible scholars to reach the knowledge of the masoom. That applies to Sunni and Shia currently.

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1 minute ago, Warilla said:

It's completed we just all require fallible scholars to reach the knowledge of the masoom. That applies to Sunni and Shia currently.

Sorry but Qiyas isn't way to Masomeen.

Its following self made laws of people.

Neither do we need fallible people to reach hadith, neither knowledge of Masomeen.

Since Qur'an and Hadith is there, also authentication of hadith in our mazhab is different than yours.

Practically all people won't go in depth, thus Imam (عليه السلام) ordered to refer to people narrating our hadiths. OUR HADITHS NOT THERE OWN PERSONAL FATWAS!

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Our fuqha study tons of hadith and they remain within the bounds and then issue rulings on things today.

So do Sunni scholars.

"Big difference between taking rulings by qiyas and non-masoom"

Sunni take rulings from  an infallible Prophet.

Both do qiyas for modern issues as there is no direct hadith. 

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7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Practically all people won't go in depth, thus Imam (عليه السلام) ordered to refer to people narrating our hadiths. OUR HADITHS NOT THERE OWN PERSONAL FATWAS!

Which hadith and how do you know they are authentic. And what do you do when 2 hadith of Masoom contradict.

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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Our fuqha study tons of hadith and they remain within the bounds and then issue rulings on things today. At the end, the asl of that ruling is from Imam e Masoom (عليه السلام). criteria is defined by Imam e Masoom (عليه السلام).

Usoolis take rulings not clearly mentioned by the usools or the asl as you point out , qiyas is haram in our madhab and is used by the Sunnis. 

So what is the big difference. 

You are a hybrid usoobari. 

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Why the divisions? Because of jahl. The majority of muslimeen, regardless of their sect, hardly spend any time learning about the deen and therefore lazily jump onto bandwagons. 

Shiism is based on the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt but most Shi'a are not familiar with either. 

The 'groups' you mentioned are firstly based on irrelevant issues (wilayatul faqih is neither usool ud deen nor furoo' ud deen) or are self contradictory (a lot of self-claimed akhbaris are actually far from the original akhbari thought of Sheikh Al Bahrani and others. Indo-pak akhbaris for instance follow (make taqleed of) 'leaders' who don't even understand elementary Arabic and can therefore hardly claim to follow the tens of thousands of ahadith that we have not to mention the Qur'an itself)

Seek knowledge and you will find the truth inshaAllah. Wasting time trying to defend or define modern day groups that our a'immah (عليه السلام) did not prescribe has no real value. 

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17 hours ago, Warilla said:

Which hadith and how do you know they are authentic. And what do you do when 2 hadith of Masoom contradict.

Al-Kafi, H 198, Chapter 22, hadith 2
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from ?Abdallah ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Hakam from Aban ibn ?Uthman from 'Abdallah ibn Abu Ya?fur who has said the following.

"In a meeting where ibn abi Ya?fur was also present I asked Imam Abu ?Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) about the differences in Hadith which is narrated from people whom we trust and yet from other people we do not trust." The Imam replied, "If you come across a Hadith and you find evidence in the holy Qur'an to support it or in Hadith of the holy Prophet (you may follow it), otherwise, you follow the one that has come to you through the trustworthy narrator."

We follow what Masoom (عليه السلام) told us to do.

Order of Masoom is Order of Allah.

When two hadiths contradict, then Allah says through Masoom Imam (عليه السلام) that if you even can't verify which hadith contradict Qur'an and which doesn't, then follow what reaches you through a trustworthy narrator.

In same book, Imam also said take hadith opposite to Ama (majority ahle sunnah) since in it would be guidence.

You may show do you have a nas like that or do you follow qiyasi styles?

Im currently traveling so once I reach home, I will answer other questions.

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9 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Why the divisions? Because of jahl. The majority of muslimeen, regardless of their sect, hardly spend any time learning about the deen and therefore lazily jump onto bandwagons. 

Shiism is based on the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt but most Shi'a are not familiar with either. 

The 'groups' you mentioned are firstly based on irrelevant issues (wilayatul faqih is neither usool ud deen nor furoo' ud deen) or are self contradictory (a lot of self-claimed akhbaris are actually far from the original akhbari thought of Sheikh Al Bahrani and others. Indo-pak akhbaris for instance follow (make taqleed of) 'leaders' who don't even understand elementary Arabic and can therefore hardly claim to follow the tens of thousands of ahadith that we have not to mention the Qur'an itself)

Seek knowledge and you will find the truth inshaAllah. Wasting time trying to defend or define modern day groups that our a'immah (عليه السلام) did not prescribe has no real value. 

But wilayat Al Faqih,like I showed above is going against core aqaid of Shias like I showed you above that Mujtahids can be ulil amr. Still it has nothing to do with Usool of Shias?

This is what your ulima are spreading here and thats the reason they are getting hate.

Calling fuqaha Ulil-Amr

Calling them Imam-e-Ummat

Still usool e Shia aren't concerned?

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14 hours ago, haideriam said:

Usoolis take rulings not clearly mentioned by the usools or the asl as you point out , qiyas is haram in our madhab and is used by the Sunnis. 

So what is the big difference. 

You are a hybrid usoobari. 

No one, I believe is following everything with a 100% accuracy.

Neither Akhbaris Nor Usoolis

I don't believe in issuing sets of fatwa in form of tauzeeh ul masail neither I am in support of it. Imam Said refer to narrators of our hadiths. So fuqaha like olds ones, must explain everything in light of hadith e Masoom. But If you trust them in this matter that they are telling you ruling from hadiths of Aima (عليه السلام) then for sake of unity leave these things. Its good then.

Everything you prove must have a nas addressing it generally. If it doesn't have a nas, then one should hold his tongue until Imam Appears since Ijtehad, Qiyas etc are not allowed.

Example: 

Watching 18+ animated cartoons is bad deed.

This quote with 100% similar words can't be found but it must have a general hukam addressing it from Imam (عليه السلام) (not in my mind but must be there).

 

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16 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

But wilayat Al Faqih,like I showed above is going against core aqaid of Shias like I showed you above that Mujtahids can be ulil amr. Still it has nothing to do with Usool of Shias?

This is what your ulima are spreading here and thats the reason they are getting hate.

Calling fuqaha Ulil-Amr

Calling them Imam-e-Ummat

Still usool e Shia aren't concerned?

When they would preach:

Khamenai is misdaq of Surah Dahr Ayahs.

Khamenai is Imam e Ummat

Khamenai is ulil-amr

Khamenai is Hussein of era

Khamenai is Ali of era

Two weighty things, khamenai and govt system

Then people who hear these things as a Shia, if they aren't supposed to curse him then what else are they supposed to do? (Just quoted for example-I never said curse him)

Also can you refer me to a single video where khamenai addressed these issues and said people claiming these things have nothing to with me. Then please.

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