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Mohammad313Ali

Ayatollah Khomeini “alleged war crimes”

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8 hours ago, Sumerian said:

We don't need a Khomeini, we need a strong government. That's all. There are many independent countries out there, none of them have Khomeinis in them, Iraq can and should be one of them. 

Brother you should not have double standards. Don't you know people die during a revolution? Already many have died during the protests.

Do you want to be a murderer of little boys and women?

Astaghfirullah brother.

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13 hours ago, Guest_313 said:

Brother are these reports and documents fake too?

Salam all them are trash because just came from biased links & a hateful and simpleton  person that was under influence of MKO terrorists. 

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20 hours ago, starlight said:

What??

Salam @Moalfas is just a troll with anti Iran & anti Imam Khamenei agenda that supports anything that weakens Shias specially weakening connection between Iraqi & Iranian Shias that is visible in every post by him about Iran & Iraq issues that you can find similar style & agenda in propaganda of MKO terrorists  (Muanafeqeen) & other groups that are trying to weaken Iraqi & Iranain ties in both sides .

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10 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Brother you should not have double standards. Don't you know people die during a revolution? Already many have died during the protests.

Do you want to be a murderer of little boys and women?

Astaghfirullah brother.

People dying for a rightful cause is not a problem, the sin is on the killer not the victim lool

Astaghfirullah, the qiyas is strong here again. Umawi logic again..

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7 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

People dying for a rightful cause is not a problem, the sin is on the killer not the victim lool

Astaghfirullah, the qiyas is strong here again. Umawi logic again..

Oh look you are justifying murder when it comes to your own country? So Iraq's is a "rightful cause" now and Iran's was not?

I say tell Iraqis to stop protesting immediately and avoid deaths at all costs. What are you doing?

Edited by The Green Knight

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3 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Oh look you are justifying murder when it comes to your own country?

I say tell Iraqis to stop protesting immediately and avoid deaths at all costs. What are you doing?

The murderers in Iraq are the government agents and others who are shooting at innocents, not the other way around. How hard is this to understand lool

I love protests. I am the biggest supporter of protests. It can actually be a form of nahi an al munkar :clap: as long as they're for a rightful and just cause.

Just as I am the biggest supporter of "hate" and "labels" if they are deserved. I shy away from nothing. You on the otherhand, are an apologist for authority. Could never be me.

Edited by Sumerian

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1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

The murderers in Iraq are the government agents and others who are shooting at innocents, not the other way around. How hard is this to understand lool

I love protests. I am the biggest supporter of protests. It can actually be a form of nahi an al munkar :clap: as long as they're for a rightful and just cause.

Wrong. Read!

Quote


On 6 October, the Iraqi parliament's human rights commission said that at least 99 people have died and nearly 4,000 have been injured. Government officials claim that 104 people have been killed and 6,107 wounded, with 1,200 security personnel among the injured.

 

The protestors have injured many hundreds and also killed.

People are dying Mr.. Anderson. Stop your revolution. Otherwise Mahdavist and the 313 will hate you. Learn from Iran's mistake.

Astaghfrullah brother. Astaghfirullah.

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3 hours ago, Guest_313 said:

I don’t have a conclusion, however I do have questions which I posed.

I understand and I don't blame you but I think the only conclusion we can/SHOULD be reaching is that as time goes on there will be more and more confusion, mischief and oppression. There will be leaders who are tyrants, jurisprudents focusing more on worldly gains and misleading the ummah,false guides leading the multitudes,people doing takfir on each other and so on and this will only end when Imam (عليه السلام) reappears. So brace yourself for more 'action' in the coming years.

I believe the strategy should be to make reading Qur'an a part of our daily lives (something that has become a burden unfortunately these days) and make active efforts to attain closeness to Ahulbayt(عليه السلام) particularly Imam e Zamana(عليه السلام). We have been told this is the way to salvation. 

These discussions are not going to fix anything from the revolution, it is too late. Speaking out against the oppression that is happening today is more of a duty than what happened before we were born. Neither will attacking whole groups of Shias achieve anything. Our aim in the dunya should be to be a soldier of Imam Zamana (عليه السلام) . Imam (عليه السلام) isn't going to say 'all iranians on my side', 'all iraqis, come join me' , 'WFers are my army' 'all shirazi followers my commanders', ' all tatbir sqauds to be executed' , 'all Ayatullahs no good'  313 are going to be hand picked and the criteria is going to be state of each person's own Iman and purity of heart. Let's work towards that, let's focus on something that is going to make a difference at the end.. Speak out against the injustice but also speak about the good and Ayatullah Khomeini being a fallible human being has done both.Same goes for current leaders in Iraq and Iran. Let's try and not get detracked which so many will be as narrations tell us. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam @Moalfas is just a troll with anti Iran & anti Imam Khamenei agenda that supports anything that weakens Shias specially weakening connection between Iraqi & Iranian Shias that is visible in every post by him about Iran & Iraq issues that you can find similar style & agenda in propaganda of MKO terrorists  (Muanafeqeen) & other groups that are trying to weaken Iraqi & Iranain ties in both sides .

Not everyone here has to be pro Iran and Pro Imam Khamenei and not being proIran  doesn't automatically turn him/her into a troll. 

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2 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Wrong. Read!

The protestors have injured many hundreds and also killed.

People are dying Mr... Anderson. Stop your revolution. Otherwise Mahdavist and the 313 will hate you. Learn from Iran's mistake.

Astaghfrullah brother. Astaghfirullah.

Yes let us believe the own Government's sources about the protests against it, because the Iraqi Government is so credible :NH:, lol didn't I already expose how you love to appeal to authority?

On the otherhand, there is clear video evidence of Government brutality against protesters. The protesters are absolutely innocent people, note I place an emphasis on protesters, not rioters, opportunists, foreign agents and hijackers. 

And again with your lame jokes lol bruv you are the most confused person on this website maaan come on choose a position and stick to it.

Do you support protests against oppression and hegemony or are you against it? 

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5 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

I just want to mention that not everything is black and white

Agreed, rather nothing, no one is black and white expect Masoomen(عليه السلام) and their enemies. 

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13 hours ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Threads like this seem pointless, people have already made up their minds and no matter how much proof you present it will always be with the same reactions doubting the source, and appealing to authority and emotional sentiments they may have. It's like showing a Trump supporter proof of Trump's corruption and them yelling fake news. And I know this will happen, because people are incapable of separating a principle and the people we're discussing, so just a disclaimer, I'm not comparing Khomeini to Trump, but the inherent principle that people put certain figures on a pedestal mostly for emotional rather than rational reasons so much so that they are not even able to acknowledge the possibility that the figure they revere did something wrong.  


Your argument can be used against those who are saying the opposite as well, as long as we are not discussing clear proof, and most certainly we are not discussing clear proof, rather loose allegations by questionable sources to say the least. Whoever has a previous desposition towards Imam Khomeini(رضي الله عنه) will pick and choose what to believe in. Though a clear minded person would look at ALL the merits of the person he discusses before he makes judgement, otherwise you would be like those who say that Prophet Muhammad(S) was a pedophile because he married a 9 year old.

Either way, this thread causes nothing but fitna and destructive debates as its not discussing anything clear.

 

I would like to remind the moderators of their own rules, though I know they pick and chose themselves when they apply them:

"Disrespect to any Mujtahid, Marja' Taqleed, or religious authority will not be tolerated whatsoever. Due to previous experience in this site with respect to this rule, any topics which the moderators agree on to be of controversial nature and would lead to destructive debates and disunity amongst the Ummah will NOT be allowed on this forum. Members who do not abide by this rule would have their post locked/deleted followed by a warning/ban if they do not comply. Members are encouraged to discuss this in private (email or PM) as an alternative to avoid personal attacks and disunity on the site. The Shiachat.com team does however reserve the right to keep such threads open granted that it is put under heavy moderation and all parties engaged in the debate maintain a certain level of respect and maturity."

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Do you support protests against oppression and hegemony or are you against it? 

The point is that your problem starts when same happened in Iran as it is happening now in Iraq. If you support whats going on in Iraq then why do you not support it when the same happened in Iran under the leadership of Khomeini?

I have shown you the mirror my friends.

Now, everyone who has expressed their hatred for the Iranian revolution and its leader must also express their hatred towards the ongoing protests in Iraq, unless you are hypocrites. Because a lot of innocents are dying over there right now. Little boys and women included. You also must condemn @Sumerian and all the other Iraqis on this site for supporting the bloodshed in the same way you condemn when that happened in Iran.

:D

Edited by The Green Knight

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1 hour ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Your argument can be used against those who are saying the opposite as well, as long as we are not discussing clear proof, and most certainly we are not discussing clear proof, rather loose allegations by questionable sources to say the least. Whoever has a previous desposition towards Imam Khomeini(رضي الله عنه) will pick and choose what to believe in. Though a clear minded person would look at ALL the merits of the person he discusses before he makes judgement, otherwise you would be like those who say that Prophet Muhammad(S) was a pedophile because he married a 9 year old.

 

So by your logic then if the same organization (amnesty int'l) provided you proof based on eyewitnesses as to the crimes of adversaries of IRI you would not accept it correct? If that's the case, you can't know what is true and what isn't true, and it becomes impossible to make any claim whatsoever about any injustice. By this logic, whenever criticizing the crimes of the US or any American president, we should also look at their merits correct?

 As for the fitna, anything that criticises anything Iran does will always be seen that way, but if you avoid talking about it all together then you don't learn from history. 

Edited by Mohamed1993

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21 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

As for the fitna, anything that criticises anything Iran does will always be seen that way, but if you avoid talking about it all together then you don't learn from history. 

Oh please stop playing the victims. Amnesty Int'l is widely known as a notoriously bigoted and useless organization working as a puppet for the west.

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25 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Oh please stop playing the victims. Amnesty Int'l is widely known as a notoriously bigoted and useless organization working as a puppet for the west.

You should note the irony of your comment. You're talking about victimhood really? The only people playing victim here are those that want to claim everything is a conspiracy against them and is bigoted and agenda driven. 

Edited by Mohamed1993

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3 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Remember, people are not infallible. Every person will make mistakes. Lets discuss the issues without identifying as pro or anti. Otherwise this is useless.

What you have to convince people that the scholars (marja' taqleed) are just & knowledgeable? No one can be considered as just (a'adil) therefore, abandon the taqleed. 

What we are considering Ayatullah Khomeini at the moment? An unjust person with no knowledge whatsoever of the Islamic laws, ignorant of how to deal with the prisoners & kids. And

what is more surprising is that you're viewing those rebels, criminals & traitors as innocent who killed hundreds of innocent people, who killed many kids, civilians (men & women of different age groups).  How easy it is for you to doubt on the justice & knowledge of your scholars after accepting them as just & knowledgeable!

Isn't it better to hold patience with your scholars whom you have accepted as just and knowledgeable?

But some want to investigate the history which they cannot investigate in any case because of their inability.   

So lets investigate each and every oppression, here is the first case:

Why Khizr (عليه السلام) killed the young boy? Just because of a fear?

وَأَمَّا الْغُلَامُ فَكَانَ أَبَوَاهُ مُؤْمِنَيْنِ فَخَشِينَا أَنْ يُرْهِقَهُمَا طُغْيَانًا وَكُفْرًا
 (18: 80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them)

Who else feared with khizr (عليه السلام)? God? And why he was needed to kill that boy while Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can cause him to die naturally? In such case, Musa (عليه السلام) would not blame Khizr (عليه السلام) for that killing.  So it would be better that he should have prayed to his God to cause death to that young boy. What is more interesting, Khizr (عليه السلام) was introduced by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His servant on whom He has granted the "mercy" & whom He has taught the knowledge. How killing a boy could become a sign/symbol of mercy? 

Lets take some lessons from Qur'an!

Edited by Logic1234

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1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

The point is that your problem starts when same happened in Iran as it is happening now in Iraq. If you support whats going on in Iraq then why do you not support it when the same happened in Iran under the leadership of Khomeini?

I have shown you the mirror my friends.

Support what? Toppling of the Shah and protesting his regime? Of course I believe that was a righteous move. What is this "same" you are talking about?

1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

Now, everyone who has expressed their hatred for the Iranian revolution and its leader must also express their hatred towards the ongoing protests in Iraq, unless you are hypocrites. Because a lot of innocents are dying over there right now. Little boys and women included. You also must condemn @Sumerian and all the other Iraqis on this site for supporting the bloodshed in the same way you condemn when that happened in Iran.

:D

Lol I think you have confused me with someone else because this analogy makes no sense :hahaha: I never even mentioned the "killings" in Iran - which aren't even analogous to the situation in Iraq - I even said I could care less about the Telegraph and its article earlier on in this thread, I specifically mentioned the repression against Shi'a ulama by placing them under house arrest which you failed to address. Never mentioned or even read into MEK or the mass executions allegation. 

You keep equating the victim with the aggressor lol typical Umawi logic. There is no "same" between Iraq right now and Iran lool

Edited by Sumerian

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1 minute ago, The Green Knight said:

But there were deaths as a result of that process. How can it be righteous if it results in deaths?

Never did I say a righteous move can has to have no deaths. If you will tell me the protesters are killing people, I will tell you that's not true. Some rioters and opportunists might do so, but they aren't legitimate protesters. The true protesters are those whom Sistani defends, and who says their demands are legitimate. They are the millions who go to Tahrir Square in Baghdad every day. 

Those who murder and become violent have become oppressers themselves. They are not part of our protests.

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6 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

If you will tell me the protesters are killing people, I will tell you that's not true.

Sorry but that is simply not true. There is no perfect revolution, there are always casualties on both sides.

You hate house arrests but you can overlook deaths?

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1 minute ago, The Green Knight said:

Sorry but that is simply not true. There is no perfect revolution, there are always casualties on both sides.

You hate house arrests but you can overlook deaths?

Nope, there are peaceful protests and demonstrations that result in political reforms. I don't want a revolution in the form of violent toppling of the regime, I want the regime to quit and leave power due to pressure of people.

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1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

Nope, there are peaceful protests and demonstrations that result in political reforms. I don't want a revolution in the form of violent toppling of the regime, I want the regime to quit and leave power due to pressure of people.

What if the protestors *gulp* make a house arrest? Heavens forbid..

YpQoKVE.gif

 

Quote

On 6 October, the Iraqi parliament's human rights commission said that at least 99 people have died and nearly 4,000 have been injured. Government officials claim that 104 people have been killed and 6,107 wounded, with 1,200 security personnel among the injured.

No house arrests btw. Ahhh...

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9 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Then you have wasted everyone's time. Stirred anger and hatred against a dead person holding him responsible singling him out. Condemned a whole nation's historical effort to secure freedom from tyranny and western puppeteering. Perhaps you are telling Iraq not to bother? In a revolution, people will die but you expect fallible masses to either do it like Fatah Mecca, a perfect conflict, or live on their knees under the west. Quite obviously. But you have no conclusions. Other than the ones you have given anyway. Or you are unable to share them. Now you can complain more about criticism.

Now man up and share your "potential conclusions". Or make an apology for wasting our time and criticizing an individual incomparably better than yourselves. If you have "no conclusion" then what the heck is it other than your problems with the Iranian revolution and your love for Shah and Imperialism?

Don't leave us without a direction like this.

My love for shah? you’re taking me completely out of context here and going too deep into my supposed “ulterior motives” I simply had a question that I posted in regards to Ayatullah Khomeini who I have the utmost love, respect, and reverence toward his eminence, however there are certain times where we should seek to reflect over the actions of such reputable religious personalities. 

I was asked a question by a westerner, as you can see it is apparent in the way I first started the question of this thread, and in me being lacking of knowledge or further insight posed the same question and provided certain evidences that may back my inquiry with no conclusion whatsoever and merely the need to gain insight over such a daunting accusation.

Edited by Guest_313

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Respected brothers I have seen that this discussion has been taken very far away from its essential purpose. 

I didn’t expect this thread to get the attention it has received as I usually get 5-10 responses at most towards the threads that I usually post, and the question I posed was a mere inquiry that was raised from speculation, in which I was expecting to be resolved by a concise rebuttal from any one of our brothers in this forum. 

However the discussion at hand has been pulled into a whole other context and many have accused me of having other motives and seeking a certain preordained conclusion based on certain euphemisms I supposedly stated or alluded to.

As for my conclusion and my stance I am with Ayatullah Khomeini he is my leader and will always be a person whom I revere greatly, if you will all refer back to my first question that I posed it is merely stating my dismay of the accusations and my lack of knowledge in responding to such allegations in which I sought the aid of you brothers in alleviating such attacks on our dignified leader.

After further inquiry and research I have seen that the main proponents and composers of such accusations against our leader are of a certain pejorative that being of a western propagandist narrative as indeed all names trace back to such origins.

In regards to Montazeri and his audio I have been led to believe that he spoke out against the Islamic revolution and had other motives and therefore was sanctioned to house arrest which may explain his daunting accusations against Ayatullah Khomeini.

giants such as Sayed Muhammad Baqir al-sadr, Shaheed Mutahhari, Ayatullah khoei, and many more were on the side of our leader and his revolution and to take such things into note, would mean that the accusations are of little credibility when they come from only one side that being the opposing western propagandist narrative.

نسأل الله تبيان الحق من الباطل

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@Logic1234 Musa على نبينا واله وعليه السلام asked why Khidhr على نبينا واله وعليه السلام killed that boy. Khidhr على نبينا واله وعليه السلام had knowledge from Allah and is a 'abd sale'h, which is a label given to those with very very high levels of piety. Do not compare him to other people. He's on another level. Our scholars WILL make mistakes. We may give scholars the benefit of the doubt in many things, but these are lives we are talking about. 

I do not know the full story or what happened. This is why I'm here, to read the facts. But there are very little facts being presented in this thread and a lot of bias. No one is being critical.

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14 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Never did I say a righteous move can has to have no deaths. If you will tell me the protesters are killing people, I will tell you that's not true. Some rioters and opportunists might do so, but they aren't legitimate protesters. The true protesters are those whom Sistani defends, and who says their demands are legitimate. They are the millions who go to Tahrir Square in Baghdad every day. 

Those who murder and become violent have become oppressers themselves. They are not part of our protests.

I've been to tahrir square, it can hardly hold 20K people. And a protest that is hijacked by terrorists and jackals needs to reinvent itself. A protest that lets a hash-shaabi commander together with his brother get dragged out of an ambulance and burnt, should also reinvent itself. Most Iraqis protesting have good intentions, but they also are very easily manipulated people, not sure if it's due to being oppressed for so long or what. Their protests have been hijacked, there is no doubt about it and I hope they find a way to resolve it.

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4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Khidhr على نبينا واله وعليه السلام had knowledge from Allah and is a 'abd sale'h, which is a label given to those with very very high levels of piety.

Salam, 

First of all, please note that this case has been put forward not as a comparison, rather for investigation of an "apparent oppression" or you can call it a crime where a pious & knowledgeable chosen one has killed a young boy. Let me quote myself again:
 

19 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

But some want to investigate the history which they cannot investigate in any case because of their inability.   

So lets investigate each and every oppression, here is the first case:

Why Khizr (عليه السلام) killed the young boy? Just because of a fear?

وَأَمَّا الْغُلَامُ فَكَانَ أَبَوَاهُ مُؤْمِنَيْنِ فَخَشِينَا أَنْ يُرْهِقَهُمَا طُغْيَانًا وَكُفْرًا
 (18: 80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them)

Who else feared with khizr (عليه السلام)? God? And why he was needed to kill that boy while Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can cause him to die naturally? In such case, Musa (عليه السلام) would not blame Khizr (عليه السلام) for that killing.  So it would be better that he should have prayed to his God to cause death to that young boy. What is more interesting, Khizr (عليه السلام) was introduced by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His servant on whom He has granted the "mercy" & whom He has taught the knowledge. How killing a boy could become a sign/symbol of mercy? 

Lets take some lessons from Qur'an!

 I have just put forward my questions & have tried to inquire the fact. I am well aware of the status of Khizr (عليه السلام) and cannot draw a comparison between him and any Ayatullah. 

I will probably open a new thread for discussing the story of Khizr (عليه السلام), Insha Allah. 

Wassalam. 

 

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11 hours ago, root said:

I've been to tahrir square, it can hardly hold 20K people. And a protest that is hijacked by terrorists and jackals needs to reinvent itself. A protest that lets a hash-shaabi commander together with his brother get dragged out of an ambulance and burnt, should also reinvent itself. Most Iraqis protesting have good intentions, but they also are very easily manipulated people, not sure if it's due to being oppressed for so long or what. Their protests have been hijacked, there is no doubt about it and I hope they find a way to resolve it.

No it doesn't need to reinvent itself, the Government needs to obey the demands of the people and then the crisis will be over. But those stuck to their seats will never move, because they are corrupt scum.

The protests have not been hijacked at all. Most protesters are still peaceful.

The only manipulated people are those who apologise for the corrupt politicians and their armed allies who have turned Iraq into a turf war. These people are weak in the heart.

Edited by Sumerian

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On 11/26/2019 at 9:07 PM, Sumerian said:

And you mentioned marjas, what do you say about marjas who criticise the "Islamic Republic"? Shouldn't they have shut their mouths, according to your logic?

Criticising in a respectful way is different to abusing and bashing the "Islamic Republic" in an obsessive way. Btw it's obvious some scholars (not the majority) do curse and use bad language simply due to difference in opinion. I'm sure you can find such clips on YouTube. Therefore, yeah anyone who can't criticise or disagree in an educate way, they should get their mouths shut.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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