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In the Name of God بسم الله
AStruggler

Here's Another Marriage/Women Thread for Y'all :p - Hijab as a Measure of Relgiosity? To what extent?

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Salaam,

To what extent should a girl's hijab be considered/used as a measure of her relgiousity?

Not generalising, but with the way things are, the situation seems to be that some brothers may have to bury their hopes of finding a religious spuse (if religiousity is mainly measured by the way the hijab is worn).

It seems to be the case that nowaydays, even those sisters who strive to be religious in the comnunity, are techinally not really wearing the most law-abiding hijab.  With all due respect to all the great sisters, but there seems to be this rising culture in Western Shia communities which makes it acceptable and okay for sisters to do whatever hijab they can (even though it may not satisfy the actual rules of hijab) and be comfortable about it and still be religious and pious. I feel that there's this subtly increasing acceptance and normalization of improper hijab in modern-western (probably eastern too) Shia communities, and those who may raise concerns over this may come accross to the people as "extremists" or the "bad sport's".  I feel that for a lot of places, it's not wrong to say that improper hijab is really just becoming a non-issue. Personally, it leaves me confused, makes me feel weird, and leaves me with no words (due to confusion), because some apparently very great people may be wearing not as great of hijab, like whyyy :( ?

Edited by AStruggler

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13 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Salaam,

To what extent should a girl's hijab be considered/used as a measure of her relgiousity?

Not generalising, but with the way things are, the situation seems to be that some brothers may have to bury their hopes of finding a religious spuse (if religiousity is mainly measured by the way the hijab is worn).

It seems to be the case that nowaydays, even those sisters who strive to be religious in the comnunity, are techinally not really wearing the most law-abiding hijab.  With all due respect to all the great sisters, but there seems to be this rising culture in Western Shia communities which makes it acceptable and okay for sisters to do whatever hijab they can (even though it may not satisfy the actual rules of hijab) and be comfortable about it and still be religious and pious. I feel that there's this subtly increasing acceptance and normalization of improper hijab in modern-western (probably eastern too) Shia communities, and those who may raise concerns over this may come accross to the people as "extremists" or the "bad sport's".  I feel that for a lot of places, it's not wrong to say that improper hijab is really just becoming a non-issue. Personally, it leaves me confused, makes me feel weird, and leaves me with no words (due to confusion), because some apparently very great people may be wearing not as great of hijab, like whyyy :( ?

Salam,

I understand where you're coming from. Its becoming an issue where some girls I knew from highschool have removed their hijab aswell.

Yes, there are great people out there who strive in religiosity and don't wear hijab for instance. Even better than some normal hijabis. Personally I would look at personality then I would look at religiosity because what's the point if one who deems himself/herself religious or wears proper hijab and yet shows no respect

Yes, it all seems confusing. It happens everywhere, even in Iraq, Pakistan, probably Saudi even. But sometimes I feel like some people exaggerate with their views on hijab. For example, I personally believe there's nothing wrong with females wearing jeans or pants with as long as they try to cover themselves modestly. If she for instance wanted to wear pants and a midlength shirt then she would wear something extra with it for the sake of modesty (such as a jacket or long cardigan). However, others will still think of it being not modest because they're still pants and make the legs stand out or something, if im making sense. Thats in some communities though. 

I also wanted to point out, some females who do not observe proper hijab or even wear the headscarf may not just be due to lack of faith. There are some who are on their own journey, their own path of strengthening their imaan. I know a friend whose a non hijabi, but has strong faith that I don’t observe in most of the Muslim girls I see. She has even told me that it was because of her parents that despite the fact that she still hasn't observed the hijab, she never went out of league. So most of it really depends on their families. They have their own relationship with God and they have their own journey into strengthening their faith and becoming better Muslims. That might be the reason why some of them dislike it when others judge and point them out as being improper Muslims.

Also some people (even females) need to chill. A while ago I saw this short clip in Iran where everyone must wear the headscarf, a hijabi lady was physically attacking a non hijabi in her car. I would like to know what goes through the minds of these ill corrupted people.

Hijab is obligatory and a command from God, so it isn't that much of a choice in Islam. However, enforcing hijab upon women is not allowed either, nor enforcing religion in general, a concept that some families fail to understand. Forcing upon her will just drive her away more her faith

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4 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Salaam,

To what extent should a girl's hijab be considered/used as a measure of her relgiousity?

Not generalising, but with the way things are, the situation seems to be that some brothers may have to bury their hopes of finding a religious spuse (if religiousity is mainly measured by the way the hijab is worn).

It seems to be the case that nowaydays, even those sisters who strive to be religious in the comnunity, are techinally not really wearing the most law-abiding hijab.  With all due respect to all the great sisters, but there seems to be this rising culture in Western Shia communities which makes it acceptable and okay for sisters to do whatever hijab they can (even though it may not satisfy the actual rules of hijab) and be comfortable about it and still be religious and pious. I feel that there's this subtly increasing acceptance and normalization of improper hijab in modern-western (probably eastern too) Shia communities, and those who may raise concerns over this may come accross to the people as "extremists" or the "bad sport's".  I feel that for a lot of places, it's not wrong to say that improper hijab is really just becoming a non-issue. Personally, it leaves me confused, makes me feel weird, and leaves me with no words (due to confusion), because some apparently very great people may be wearing not as great of hijab, like whyyy :( ?

"can" is the wrong word here. Let me correct it:

want*

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6 hours ago, AStruggler said:

measure of her relgiousity?

salaam alykum wrwb

Just that her religiousity is for Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so it becomes really difficult to measure that according to what we deem to be. According to the heavy weights though it becomes different for the standard is set. & to really get there takes time whilst tomorrow we die.

ws

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7 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

While we're on measuring religiosity, whats the standard for men to get measured up? :einstein:

I think it is equal for both men and women - the standard of measurement is the Divine Law in Islam according to their Marja, and their inner heart sincerity. Since only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows someone's heart, we have to judge by the Divine Law in Islam. 

The Divine Law says women should wear the hijab, so this is definitely a standard of measurement. Of course, some things can stop her even if she wants to wear hijab, for example family or work circumstances. So these should also be considered. 

As for men, the standard is also the Divine Law. E.g. is he shaving his beard, touching non-mahrams, earning a haram income, not lowering his gaze, not praying his prayers etc. All these are red flags for men because he is disobeying the Divine Law whether he knows it or not. 

So I would say the standard of measuring religiosity in men and women is the same. 

Ws. 

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No the hijab is not the measure of religiosity. Some one who wears a full niqab can be a very bad person and someone who doesn't cover her hair can still be very pious. It all comes down to the individual and what circumstances people is living under. Some years ago head cover was fashionable and a lot of people wore it just for show. to day it is not so fashionable. Maybe because of Syria and Daesh and all of that and many people don't want to come across as a religious fanatic. There is a difference between being religious and stuffing religion down other peoples throats.
I personally think that hijab is a beautiful thing that I am happy to wear for Allah, but I will not backbite anyone for not observing hijab. It is not for me to judge and I don't have then knowledge to do so either.

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Thank you @AStruggler for the thread!I also wanted to add a question. Hope you wont mind. Its somewhat related.

If a woman's attire comes in the Islamic guidelines but it makes her look attractive does it still come under hijab? There are certain styles that suit a person and over time you come to know which ones make you look good and you tend to opt for those. Is that okay? Or should we go for the less attractive style? (By less attractive, I don't mean slouchy or untidy it's for example a different cut, or a different shirt length)

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5 hours ago, starlight said:

If a woman's attire comes in the Islamic guidelines but it makes her look attractive does it still come under hijab?

I would say that there is a difference between 'attractive' clothing in the sense of looking respectable, tidy, well-groomed, etc. and 'attractive' in the sense of attracting the attention of the opposite gender, provocative, revealing, etc.

Of course the maraja say the first type is permissible and the second type is impermissible if it will attract the attention of men in terms of lust. For example it is impermissible to wear tight-fitting clothes in the presence of non-mahram men (I.e. those clothes which reveal the contours of the body).

And of course the best of hijab is demonstrated by the Chief of all the Women of the World, Lady Fatima al-Zahra, peace be upon her, who wore a “head-to-toe” completely covering Aba'.

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2 minutes ago, Kaya said:

I would say that there is a difference between 'attractive' clothing in the sense of looking respectable, tidy, well-groomed, etc. and 'attractive' in the sense of attracting the attention of the opposite gender, provocative, revealing, etc.

So would the former be okay? I always pick clothes that are full sleeved, not form fitting, nothing revealing and the intention is never to attract men, but I have noticed with certain styles I always have my female coworkers telling me I am looking good so I was wondering if I should give up wearing those. Donno.

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3 minutes ago, starlight said:

So would the former be okay? I always pick clothes that are full sleeved, not form fitting, nothing revealing and the intention is never to attract men, but I have noticed with certain styles I always have my female coworkers telling me I am looking good so I was wondering if I should give up wearing those. Donno.

Salam, it should be okay if it's not attracting the attention of men.

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Judging a woman's level of faith by her hijab is as nonsensical as judging a man's level of faith by the length of his beard. 

These are extremely subjective choices after the bare minimum is met.

Although some 'modern' types of hijab defeat its original purpose which is Sitr; who am I or anyone else to judge a woman who made an informed choice on how she presents herself and is content with the way she covers up?

I'd also like to add that some people who are classified within our communities as 'religious' or of high levels of faith, yet they are abusers or liars or just horrible in the way they treat others. There's also plenty of people who wouldn't be classified as 'religious' yet they treat others with respect, they're not abusers, not liars etc 

if you ask me, I would say that the latter has more faith than the former because faith is how you treat others, not how much you pray or how you cover up or how long your beard is. 

 The point is one needs to look beyond the surface to make an accurate assessment of a person's character and levels of faith.

Edited by Moalfas

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11 hours ago, Kaya said:

Of course the maraja say the first type is permissible and the second type is impermissible if it will attract the attention of men in terms of lust.

I think that different men is attracted by different things. I have even had interested looks from a Muslim guy when I was wearing a chador. So does that mean I should have worn full Niqab?

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14 hours ago, starlight said:

 . . . but it still makes her look attractive does it still come under hijab?

Word added for clarity. 

 

22 hours ago, AStruggler said:

To what extent should a girl's hijab be considered/used as a measure of her relgiousity?

l see many hijabis caked in makeup. OPINE: Disgusto !  ("o" added in American slang)

lf l follow you two correctly, you are also discussing 'circumvention techniques' to attract attention.

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22 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Salaam,

To what extent should a girl's hijab be considered/used as a measure of her relgiousity?

Not generalising, but with the way things are, the situation seems to be that some brothers may have to bury their hopes of finding a religious spuse (if religiousity is mainly measured by the way the hijab is worn).

It seems to be the case that nowaydays, even those sisters who strive to be religious in the comnunity, are techinally not really wearing the most law-abiding hijab.  With all due respect to all the great sisters, but there seems to be this rising culture in Western Shia communities which makes it acceptable and okay for sisters to do whatever hijab they can (even though it may not satisfy the actual rules of hijab) and be comfortable about it and still be religious and pious. I feel that there's this subtly increasing acceptance and normalization of improper hijab in modern-western (probably eastern too) Shia communities, and those who may raise concerns over this may come accross to the people as "extremists" or the "bad sport's".  I feel that for a lot of places, it's not wrong to say that improper hijab is really just becoming a non-issue. Personally, it leaves me confused, makes me feel weird, and leaves me with no words (due to confusion), because some apparently very great people may be wearing not as great of hijab, like whyyy :( ?

A nice post. I think even if her hijab isn’t perfect, if she acknowledges the fact that she doesn’t wear perfect hijab but is striving to be better at it means a lot about it. This is how I judge the level of religiosity of men through the means of hijab. I think no religious man would be okay with showing his wife to na mehram . If a man tells me its upto you to wear or not wear hijab or if he’s okay with me wearing tight clothes in front of na mehram then he definitely doesn’t have ghirah and God consciousness.

As a man looking for a spouse, you can accept someone who doesn’t wear proper hijab but keep your demands in front of her as to what kind of hijab you would appreciate and accept after marriage. If she agrees with your demand for the sake of her future husband and Allah then that definitely says a lot good about her. 

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14 hours ago, starlight said:

but I have noticed with certain styles I always have my female coworkers telling me I am looking good so I was wondering if I should give up wearing those. Donno.

lf you'd like us to critically evaluate, find a picture that is same/similar and post it. Include hands, also.

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9 hours ago, Moalfas said:

I'd also like to add that some people who are classified within our communities as 'religious' or of high levels of faith, yet they are abusers or liars or just horrible

Ayat 2:8

One element in defining religion is ritual

Ritual as define is not something lsIam has. We have saleh, jummah, Hajj, which are revealed as duties-for-our-nafs; and we are warned against superstitions, innovations and saying of things for which we have no knowledge.

The rituals have parades, processions, chirping and muttering (Isaia 8:19, translations vary -ed.) elements of mystery and magic (which expressly defies al-Haqq -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).)

So, these "liars" are ritualists and not believers.

 

misuse of word

Edited by hasanhh

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2 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

I think that different men is attracted by different things. I have even had interested looks from a Muslim guy when I was wearing a chador. So does that mean I should have worn full Niqab?

Men, as a general rule, get attracted by similar sexual characteristics that are present in women. This is the way Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created men and woman so that their nature is to get attracted to one another's characteristics, and not get attracted to other species, inanimate objects etc. 

These characteristics include the face, body, voice, and several other things that the maraja have classified. 

The Qur'an orders believing women to not display as much of their beauty as they can and to reserve it for their husbands only.

So it is not appropriate to wear revealing clothing, or clothing which will emphasise beauty features, when you are around non mahram men. 

As to the objection raised about men being attracted by different things, this is not really relevant because 1) men are generally attracted by the same characteristics, albeit to various degrees 2) the duty of the believing woman is to be modest, she is not responsible for someones perversion, since their duty is lowering the gaze. 

It is also possible for some men to be attracted to modest women more than those that wear revealing clothing. This does not enter in the category of "attracting the attention of men" because that category is based on direct lust/sexual attraction. 

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8 hours ago, starlight said:

A big part of our religion is Akhlaq. Lots of people preaching fiqh and rattling off rulings fall falt on their faces when it comes to Akhlaq. 

Fiqh handles Akhlaq too though! E.g. it's haram to backbite, lie (unless you are in danger), etc. 

I think what you meant was people who practice the ritual aspects of Islam (namaz, fasting, etc) but do not observe Akhlaq. 

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Isaia 8:19

Did you just quote the Bible lol? I thought you were Muslim 

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37 minutes ago, Kaya said:

Did you just quote the Bible lol? I thought you were Muslim 

Yes, to show where l got the phrase "chirp and mutter" from.

Other translations have "peep and muttering"; and so on.

l always thought this to be a good description most religious rituals.

Good you asked.

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@AStruggler havent had the time to read the whole thread, but why is this question not address to male and female (social and physical hijab)? Ghe fact that you only addressed this towards only female hijab is a little off-putting. Otherwise, wouldve been an interesting discussion. 

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4 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Yes, to show where l got the phrase "chirp and mutter" from.

Other translations have "peep and muttering"; and so on.

l always thought this to be a good description most religious rituals.

Good you asked.

I don't get it, why do we need the Bible to define the word "ritual"? Especially since we are Muslims.

Google defines ritual as: "A religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order."

 

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1 hour ago, Kaya said:

I don't get it, why do we need the Bible to define the word "ritual"? Especially since we are Muslims.

Google defines ritual as: "A religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order."

 

I didn't use a Biblical phrase as a definition but as another characterization. Google's platitudinal definition lacks specificity as it includes "religious"(vague) and an undefined "solemn" (like a high school graduation?) and is low quality.

In the Merriam-Webster, ritual is "the established form, especially in religious ceremony; a system of rites.

To read like what we had in college, see:  https://www.britannica.com/topic/ritual 

 

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2 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

In the Merriam-Webster, ritual is "the established form, especially in religious ceremony; a system of rites.

Yes, lol I just found it funny to use Bible as a source of reference

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14 minutes ago, Kaya said:

Yes, lol I just found it funny to use Bible as a source of reference

Similarly, for decades l have found "chirp and mutter" not only an accurate description for those TV evangelilizers and a lot of ther rhetoric, but also comicical.

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You could marry a girl who does not wear hijab (going against the will of God) but is spiritual and modest otherwise.

You could marry a girl who wears hijab (in accordance to the will of God) but is not spiritual at all and very immodest in behaviour.

 

OR you could marry a girl who wears hijab AND is spiritual and otherwise modest.

I don’t understand why it has to be either or when you could have both. Theres a lot more good Muslim women out there compared to the amount of good Muslim men from my observance.

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7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

So, these "liars" are ritualists and not believers.

 

misuse of word

I wouldn't go as far as claiming a liar would be a non believer and is simply a 'ritualist'. Only Allah can make that judgement.

The point was some who appear to be 'religious' can in fact be very far off the mark.

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11 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Only Allah can make that judgement.

l did a quick mlti-search. The two ayats l found that say people are make determinations on who are liars are 24:12 and 29:12.

However, most of what l found supports your assertion: for example 59:11 and 9:107.  The other ayats l checked are of the form "they lie" because Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). knows they did and revealed it.

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On 11/20/2019 at 10:08 PM, 2Timeless said:

@AStruggler havent had the time to read the whole thread, but why is this question not address to male and female (social and physical hijab)? Ghe fact that you only addressed this towards only female hijab is a little off-putting. Otherwise, wouldve been an interesting discussion. 

There's also a physical hijab for men but the laws are much more chill. I don't think it's reasonable to comapre them both in one thread. Also, it's easier for guys to abide by the sharia in regards to their dressing (talking purely from a fiqhi perspective). The OP is a brother and is talking about everything from his own perspective, in case his thinking needs to be guided. 

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3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

There's also a physical hijab for men but the laws are much more chill. I don't think it's reasonable to comapre them both in one thread. Also, it's easier for guys to abide by the sharia in regards to their dressing (talking purely from a fiqhi perspective). The OP is a brother and is talking about everything from his own perspective, in case his thinking needs to be guided. 

Fiqh and akhlaq go hand in hand, so considering them both in isolation of eachother is illogical. A woman could be wearing a jilbab but swear and hang around boys and joke etc (I've seen this myself). Her physical hijab is perfect, but does that mean her hijab is halal? No, because her akhlaq doesn't match the level of physical hijab she is portraying. Similarly, a man could be wearing normal clothes that don’t expose anything haram, but his behaviour may not abide by the laws of akhlaq and so his hijab wouldn't be considered halal. 

This also goes back to a thread I made a while ago...why are men so concerned with women's clothing and anything related to women at all? I don’t see women constantly making threads about men who gell their hair, shave, put makeup on, wear gold and silk, touch women, etc (the list goes on) and whether that reflects on their faith. Men should just concern themselves with lowering their gaze and bettering their faith. Focusing on women wont get you anywhere. 

Edited by 2Timeless

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@2Timeless You mentioned some good points, however I don't agree with that sort of thinking to some extent. I see that sort of thinking cause many people to neglect certain fiqhi aspects of Islam. Certain sisters feel that they're not good enough for the hijab. If they live an unislamic lifestyle, this excessive guilt prevents them from wearing the hijab. They give way too much thought to the hijab to the point where they choose not to wear it. The reality is that no one is perfect in this world. Girls with the hijab do hang out and talk to boys just like other girls who expose their hair. We shouldn't let this prevent us from observing certain Islamic laws which are so important for society at large. Yes, we might even pray five times a day and get sucked into sin. However, It doesn't mean that we neglect everything all together. Yeah it's important to purify our souls and all. However, these laws are important on their own if we want to get closer to Allah. The very essence of these laws will deepen our connection with Allah. Many people say "we're a good person from the heart, why should we wear the hijab? Why should we pray?". Islam doesn't work like that. If we neglect the outer, our vision of the inner is blurred.

41 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

women constantly making threads about men who gell their hair, shave, put makeup on, wear gold and silk, touch women, etc

Shiachat doesn't reflect what all women may think to be honest. It's natural to think about all these things before marrying someone. Our clothes speak and our appearance tells a story. I'm sure girls would judge a ratbag sort of guy who wears chains and has tattoos all over his body. in fact I know many girls are turned off by super muscly guys.

  

45 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Men should just concern themselves with lowering their gaze and bettering their faith.

I agree with you here! Ahsant!!:D

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