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In the Name of God بسم الله
Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Ilm-ur-Rijal Base or Innovation?

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As salam o aliakum.
I was a supporter of Ilm-ur-rijal and thought that it was much more logical and thought that people who don't use it and who call it an innovation are strange.
I read a few threads on it, in support of it and against it.
 

I will begin with an Ayah usually presented by people in support of ilm-ur-Rijal and then will begin with a question.

Qur'an 49:6:


O you who have believed, if there comes to you a wrongdoer with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.

All of us (Shias) believe that Qiyas in deen is haram.
Ayah says if a fasiq / wrongdoer comes to you with information, then investigate it,
whereas in science of hadith, hadith coming from liar/weak/wrongdoer/Sunni (Sihaah sitta and others) etc is rejected immediately.
We are told to investigate, and without qiyas, we have hadiths from Imam that accept whatever doesn't contradicts Qur'an.
So this ayah in no way proves ilm-ur-rijal rather ilm-ur-rijal goes against this ayah.

Now Question is, mostly anti-ilm -ur -rijali people say that Ilm-ur-rijal is biddat (innovation) and people reply them that there is no nas hadith or any Imam who called it biddah and also its just biography of men, a science, how can field of knowledge be biddah? if thats so then new fields (sub fields) we have today are all biddah especially field of engineering since it wasn't in the era of Imams (عليه السلام)
Now ilm-ur-rijal itself as biography of men, is not a biddah of course.
but using something, as basis of extracting deen, basis of establishing principle of deen without any nas of masoom is for sure a biddah.

This discussion is meant for a good conversation and please share your ideas here.

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Ilm Ul Rijal is merely a tool to help in examining and weighing up the authenticity of hadeeth. 

It's not a perfect science, nor is it the exclusive and only way to suggest authenticity or lack thereof. 

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12 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Ilm Ul Rijal is merely a tool to help in examining and weighing up the authenticity of hadeeth. 

It's not a perfect science, nor is it the exclusive and only way to suggest authenticity or lack thereof. 

I said that hadith is basis of deen and you are establishing the basis by a something never commanded by Imams (عليه السلام) which is Qiyas and Ayah like above want us to investigate report of liar/forger/fasiq/wrongdoer as well.

and this investigation process is given by Imam (عليه السلام) that throw away whatever contradicts Qur'an.
also 5 to 6 hadiths I have read, they seem to go totally against ilm-ur-rijal

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16 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

establishing the basis by a something never commanded by Imams (عليه السلام)

The Imams didn't command to use a compass either, yet we still use it to get an accurate direction of Mecca. 

 

16 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:


and this investigation process is given by Imam (عليه السلام) that throw away whatever contradicts Qur'an.

I'm not defending the science nor am I totally against it. I made clear that it's a 'tool' to 'help'.

It's useful to know whether the person narrating is a Thiqa or not. Then again it's not the only parameter used nor should it be the exclusive method. Also, Matn must be inline with the Qur'an etc

 

16 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:


also 5 to 6 hadiths I have read, they seem to go totally against ilm-ur-rijal

Please share the 5-6 hadiths.

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9 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

The Imams didn't command to use a compass either, yet we still use it to get an accurate direction of Mecca. 

 

I'm not defending the science nor am I totally against it. I made clear that it's a 'tool' to 'help'.

It's useful to know whether the person narrating is a Thiqa or not. Then again it's not the only parameter used nor should it be the exclusive method. Also, Matn must be inline with the Qur'an etc

 

Please share the 5-6 hadiths.

are you establishing some basis of deen with compass?
such strange counter argument.
direction of Kaba can be calculated easily with sun-rise and sun set and numerous other methods.
which were practised at that times.

We are told to investigate report of a fasiq while rajli scholors declare hadiths of zaef/kazaab/wrongdoers as rejected.
this clearly goes against Qur'an and method of authentication of hadith in it.

Use of Compass is to assist people in finding direction  of kabah its not a biddah.
While we see ilm-ur-rijal going against many hadiths since Imam also told us to accept hadiths from other sects and donot reject reports of liars.
There is a clear contradiction while its not in the case of compass.

point is use of ilm-e-rijal to establish your deen is an innovation else it must have a nas.
Since without ilm-ur-rijal, hadith science is pretty much gone.

Investigating the report whether its inline with Qur'an is coming from Imam (عليه السلام).
Do we know more than him? 
 

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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10 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

I'm not defending the science nor am I totally against it. I made clear that it's a 'tool' to 'help'.

It's useful to know whether the person narrating is a Thiqa or not. Then again it's not the only parameter used nor should it be the exclusive method. Also, Matn must be inline with the Qur'an etc

This tool of yours is useless since Qur'an orders to investigate report of wrongdoer /fasiq etc thus its pointless to check whether narrator is thiqa or not.
We just have to investigate it as Imam (عليه السلام) ordered us to do, by checking if it doesn't contradicts the Book of Allah Qur'an

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@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi 

Subhanallah, it's as if you get a kick out of just arguing. So much for a 'good conversation' lol

Do me a favour and share the 5-6 Hadiths you alluded to as I'm more interested in that than arguing. 

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1 minute ago, Moalfas said:

@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi 

Subhanallah, it's as if you get a kick out of just arguing. So much for a 'good conversation' lol

Do me a favour and share the 5-6 Hadiths you alluded to as I'm more interested in that than arguing. 

lol I didn't start it, you started it with a compass hahahahaha

alright alright I'll paste them for you.

Abu Abdullah (asws) said: Do not belie the Hadeeth, whether it comes to you by (way of) the Murjiites, or the Qadiriyya, or the Harouriya, if it is referred to us (asws), for you do not know perhaps therein is something from the Truth, otherwise you would end up belying Allah (azwj) on top of His (azwj) Throne. [Source: Al Mahaasin V1 Bk 5 H 175]

I heard Abu Jafar say: By Allah, that companion of mine is beloved to me, who narrates and ponders over our Hadith, and the evil one is the one who hears the Hadith which has been associated with us (asws) and has been reported form us (asws), so his mind does not accept it and his heart is constricted by what is contained in it, and he fights against it and denies it to make it his religion, and he does not know that it could be the hadith which is coming from us (asws) and to us (asws) is it’s link, so by that he has exited out of our wilayah (guardianship) [Source: Basair ul Darajat Chapter 22]

Then why chain was mentioned by all scholors?

And from Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, and from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Ibn Khalid, from Al Nawfaly, from Al Sakuni, from Abu Abdullah asws , said: ‘The Commander of the Faithful asws said; ‘When you narrate Hadeeth, then mention its chain (of narrators). If it was the truth then it is to you (its reward), and if it was false it is to them (its punishment)’. [Source: Wasaail us Shia – h23259]

Muhammad ibn Isma’il from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan fromibn Abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn al-Hakam and others from Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: “The Holy Prophet saww once addressed the people in Mina (a place in Makka) saying, ‘O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith, if it agrees with the Holy Book of Allah, it is genuine, but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah you must know that I have not said it.'” [Source: Al Kafi – H 203, Ch. 22, h5

*Important:

 

From Ahmad son of Muhammad son of Eissa from Al-Hussein son of Sa’eed and Muhammad son of Khaled Al-Burqi from Abdullah son of Jundub from Sufyani son of Al-Simd he said I said to Abi Abdullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) may I be your ransom a man comes to us with lies, he mentioned a hadeeth and we consider him disgusting. Abi Abdullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says, “Did he say to you that night is day and day is night?” He said no. He said, “If he said to you this do not say he is a liar or else you are calling me a liar.” [Source: Mukhtasar Basa’er Al-Darajat Hassan son of Suleiman Al-Hilli p.76 and in another print p.234 Bihar Al-Anwar v.2 p.211]

Al Safar narrated from Muhammad son of Al Hussein from Muhammad son of Ismael from Hamza son of Bazee from Ali AlSinany from Abi Al Hassan (عليه السلام) that he (عليه السلام) wrote to him in a letter “Do not say to what has been mentioned by us Baatil(false/void) even if you know that it is the opposite, you do not know why we have said it and on what face and description.” [Source: Basaer AlDarajat Muhammad son of AlHassan AlSafar p.558/AlKafi v.8 p.25/Bihar Al Anwar v.2 p.209]

Important close();

 

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1 minute ago, 7ssein said:

So you'll trust anything as long as it doesn't contradict the Qur'an?

Simple Answer: yes.

I also watched in video of Waqeel of Sistani Sahib Molvi Jaffer Yasoobi that a hadith was from Imam (عليه السلام) which had similar wordings that if you get contradictory reports, then till Imam (عليه السلام) appears, you have choice to accept any of the two narrations also referred by Sheikh Mashooq Ali in his reply to Molvi Jaffer yasoobi on Taqleed.

Also Imam said if we have two reports, one in accordance with Ama (Sunnis) and other against Sunnis, then what is against Sunnis, in it would be guidance and so on. this hadith also appeared in Al-Kafi.

also taqqiyah is what that is proven from hadiths thus it would also count.
And yeah many more things like them would be there in hadiths.

but my ans is yes. 
You asked me a question, I answered just as you wanted, now write the counter argument down already lolzz
its discussion not a debate

(Must write what u wanted to say so it may benefit me and all others)

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41 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

This tool of yours is useless since Qur'an orders to investigate report of wrongdoer /fasiq etc thus its pointless to check whether narrator is thiqa or not.
We just have to investigate it as Imam (عليه السلام) ordered us to do, by checking if it doesn't contradicts the Book of Allah Qur'an

Checking whether the narrator is trustworthy does not contradict that verse, rather it is directly related to it. 

The hadith you refer to gives a prerequisite for narrations, which is that they cannot contradict the Qur'an. It is certainly not saying that every narration that doesn't contradict the Qur'an is accepted. 

By this logic you might as well accept most narrations of Abu Hurayrah.

Wallahu a'lam

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2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Checking whether the narrator is trustworthy does not contradict that verse, rather it is directly related to it. 

The hadith you refer to gives a prerequisite for narrations, which is that they cannot contradict the Qur'an. It is certainly not saying that every narration that doesn't contradict the Qur'an is accepted. 

By this logic you might as well accept most narrations of Abu Hurayrah.

Wallahu a'lam

Definately why not?
Abu Huraira being eye witness of ghadeer e Khum also reported that Verse of ikmel Deen was revealed at ghadeer e khum I accept.
since its in light of Sayings of Masoomeen (عليه السلام).

Only Hypocrite will hate Ali (عليه السلام) I accept it in Sahih Bukhari. Since its hadith of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
but we deny them when they go against Masomeen (عليه السلام)

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On 11/13/2019 at 9:44 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Abu Huraira being eye witness of ghadeer e Khum also reported that Verse of ikmel Deen was revealed at ghadeer e khum I accept.
since its in light of Sayings of Masoomeen (عليه السلام).

In other words you accept it because of tawatur, because you have seen other similar narrations from more trustworthy narrators (thiqaat). 

If I was to narrate today that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) used to be fond of eating sandwiches, I technically wouldn't be contradicting the Qur'an. That obviously doesn't mean that you would now take that narration from me and consider eating sandwiches as a sunnah.

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 11/13/2019 at 10:48 AM, Mahdavist said:

In other words you accept it because of tawatur, because you have seen other similar narrations from more trustworthy narrators (thiqaat). 

If I was to narrate today that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) used to be fond of eating sandwiches, I technically wouldn't be contradicting the Qur'an. That obviously doesn't mean that you would now take that narration from me and consider eating sandwiches as a sunnah.

Wallahu a'lam 

1. Practically it won't affect deen in any way.
2. I have to mention sanad if I would do that, I wouldn't get any blame as per Imam Ali (عليه السلام) 's hadith.
3. If a narrations reaches me that technically doesn't contradict Qur'an, it technically wouldn't do any damage to Deen Islam.
4. in that case, Imam (عليه السلام) said when his companions asked if a liar tell us some hadith and it disgusts us then? Imam (عليه السلام) said don't say he lied since there might be something true else you called me a liar. (Better to be safe than getting into some serious trouble)
5. Imam (عليه السلام) also said if a narrration comes to yo from our Shia thiqa, then thanks Allah and accept it. while in this case, I clearly can see one is lying.
6. At the same time, Imam (عليه السلام) also told us to accept hadith from other than Shias if narration doesn't contradict Qur'an so taking hadith isn't restricted to thiqa narrator.
7. Imam (عليه السلام) said in this era of gayabt refer to people who narrate our hadiths, not you or me. Narrators of ahadith are rawi in hadith books, 
From above hadith and others, we get that thiqa/liar/fasiq whoever is it, we should check whether it is inline with Qur'an or not. if it is then we should accept.
If we get to contradictory hadiths which can't be proven wrong from Qur'an, we are told to take any one of those hadith until Imam appears and clears the matter. and this is also in some hadith I heard by Sheikh Mashooq Ali.
8. you and I are just some random people while Muhaddiths gave there lifes in collecting hadiths for the people. there is a difference between random person narrating Mursal riwayah and Muhaddith narrating Mursal riwayah. and also yaqoob e Kulayni Sheikh Sadooq and all other muhaddiths are Shias thiqas not by rijal, these names have traveled from generations to generations. thus there is no prblem with Al Tabrisi aur Al Qummi etc.

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On 11/13/2019 at 12:36 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

1. Practically it won't affect deen in any way.
2. I have to mention sanad if I would do that, I wouldn't get any blame as per Imam Ali (عليه السلام) 's hadith.
3. If a narrations reaches me that technically doesn't contradict Qur'an, it technically wouldn't do any damage to Deen Islam.
4. in that case, Imam (عليه السلام) said when his companions asked if a liar tell us some hadith and it disgusts us then? Imam (عليه السلام) said don't say he lied since there might be something true else you called me a liar. (Better to be safe than getting into some serious trouble)
5. Imam (عليه السلام) also said if a narrration comes to yo from our Shia thiqa, then thanks Allah and accept it. while in this case, I clearly can see one is lying.
6. At the same time, Imam (عليه السلام) also told us to accept hadith from other than Shias if narration doesn't contradict Qur'an so taking hadith isn't restricted to thiqa narrator.
7. Imam (عليه السلام) said in this era of gayabt refer to people who narrate our hadiths, not you or me. Narrators of ahadith are rawi in hadith books, 
From above hadith and others, we get that thiqa/liar/fasiq whoever is it, we should check whether it is inline with Qur'an or not. if it is then we should accept.
If we get to contradictory hadiths which can't be proven wrong from Qur'an, we are told to take any one of those hadith until Imam appears and clears the matter. and this is also in some hadith I heard by Sheikh Mashooq Ali.
8. you and I are just some random people while Muhaddiths gave there lifes in collecting hadiths for the people. there is a difference between random person narrating Mursal riwayah and Muhaddith narrating Mursal riwayah. and also yaqoob e Kulayni Sheikh Sadooq and all other muhaddiths are Shias thiqas not by rijal, these names have traveled from generations to generations. thus there is no prblem with Al Tabrisi aur Al Qummi etc.

1. If a false belief or a false action is established based on an unreliable narration(fabrication for instance) then of course it has an impact on religion. If we say the hadith have no impact on religion then you might as well discard them altogether.

2. Evaluating isnaad is one of the elements of ilm ul hadith and ilm ul rijal, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

3. Refer to point 1. 

4. If you are suggesting here that a liar can sometimes tell the truth, of course this is true. However, the challenge lies in distinguishing in which cases one is or isn't telling the truth which comes back to the subject of tawtheeq.

5. Again this is the principle of tawtheeq, which is what ilm ur rijal essentially looks at.

6. There is no issue with this. A chain with a non shi'a in it can also be accepted if the narrator is considered reliable. Typically the chain will not be classified sahih, but it can still be mu'tabar. 

7. Of course one refers to those who narrate the traditions of the a'immah (عليه السلام) but if the narration itself is not well established because it has been taken from unknown or unreliable sources one will look for other indicators. 

8. Collecting reports does not equate to validating them. Furthermore, while there is no issue with reliable collectors of hadith themselves the principle doesn't work if something cannot be reliably attributed to them (as is the case with some collections and even certain tafaseer).

In conclusion I would say that while the methodology of ilm ur rijal and ilm ul hadith has apparently been developed by scholars rather than directly taken from the a'immah (عليه السلام), the tools are logical and also based on principles of the Qur'an and the hadith themselves (isnaad, tawtheeq, investigation, etc)

Finally, I think you forgot to reference the article that you have been copying from: Link

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 11/13/2019 at 7:57 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

whereas in science of hadith, hadith coming from liar/weak/wrongdoer/Sunni (Sihaah sitta and others) etc is rejected immediately.

This is simply not true. You are misinformed.

Quote

We are told to investigate, and without qiyas, we have hadiths from Imam that accept whatever doesn't contradicts Qur'an.
So this ayah in no way proves ilm-ur-rijal rather ilm-ur-rijal goes against this ayah.

So in your opinion if it's from a fasiq but doesn't contradict the Qur'an, it should be accepted? If it is from a fasiq and does contradict the Qur'an, we should "investigate" it? But what constitutes investigation? Please explain how do go about investigating a hadith narrated by a wrong doer?

Quote

sure a biddah.

You have missed the point. Ilm al-rijal is not a supposed to be religious ritual. It isn't like prayer or invocations. Thus it can never fall under the category of bidah.

And more importantly you have assumed that the narrations in those famous books are authentic. You are not supposed to assume that anything is authentic. Tell me, why is al-Kafi considered authentic by you?

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This guy believes anything written in the name of an Imam even with an unauthentic sanad. I think if I told him Imam Jafar said "that Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi should give 7ssein all Naqvi's money", he would because there's no verse in the Qur'an saying he shouldn't. That's the problem with this reasoning, anyone can make up anything in the name of the Imams, and this guy would take it.

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5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Finally, I think you forgot to reference the article that you have been copying from: Link

Lol 

Thanks for the link. Looks like an interesting site.

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@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Thank you for sharing the 6 Hadiths. I'll refer back to their Arabic sources and will share with you my thoughts inshAllah.

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On 11/14/2019 at 5:23 AM, 7ssein said:

This guy believes anything written in the name of an Imam even with an unauthentic sanad. I think if I told him Imam Jafar said "that Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi should give 7ssein all Naqvi's money", he would because there's no verse in the Qur'an saying he shouldn't. That's the problem with this reasoning, anyone can make up anything in the name of the Imams, and this guy would take it.

Oh come on... I can clearly see that one in this case is fabricating a tradition towards Imam e Sadiq (عليه السلام) so why would I accept it?

Its about what muhadiths narrated as Imam (عليه السلام) also said refer to people who narrate our hadiths.

@Mahdavist if you read the hadiths I quoted, you wouldn't have replied like that.

People here first need to define what a reliable hadith is.

According to you its at least a acceptable sanad. Now we all know that hadith is basis of Islam, and you are using self derieved methods (ilm-ur-rijal) to establish the basis. For something to be of that much importance, it should have nas from Imams (عليه السلام) else the thing which is actually forming basis of our fiqh would be qiyas and biddah, since we are establishing deen using it.

Biography and ilm-ur-rijal being a science and field isnt a biddah.

I hope that you people got my point.

On 11/14/2019 at 12:34 AM, Mahdavist said:

. If a false belief or a false action is established based on an unreliable narration(fabrication for instance) then of course it has an impact on religion. If we say the hadith have no impact on religion then you might as well discard them altogether

Any of such un reliable tradition would be in contradiction with Qur'an directly or in directly because its the principle given to us not by people, but by our Imams and Imam of our Imams Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). therefore we will discard any narration in contradiction with core shii beliefs and Qur'an. This is the only thing that should form the basis of establishing reliability of hadiths since its comming from Imams (عليه السلام)

 

As for isnad, the are important no one denies and one hadith I quoted above, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said mention the sanad when you present a hadith. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) also mentioned that if its truth, you Will get reward and if its fabrication then it will not be upon you. Thus its serves the purpose why scholors old ones have mentioned hadiths along with isnad.

On 11/14/2019 at 12:34 AM, Mahdavist said:

If you are suggesting here that a liar can sometimes tell the truth, of course this is true. However, the challenge lies in distinguishing in which cases one is or isn't telling the truth which comes back to the subject of tawtheeq.

 

On 11/13/2019 at 8:15 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

From Ahmad son of Muhammad son of Eissa from Al-Hussein son of Sa’eed and Muhammad son of Khaled Al-Burqi from Abdullah son of Jundub from Sufyani son of Al-Simd he said I said to Abi Abdullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) may I be your ransom a man comes to us with lies, he mentioned a hadeeth and we consider him disgusting. Abi Abdullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says, “Did he say to you that night is day and day is night?” He said no. He said, “If he said to you this do not say he is a liar or else you are calling me a liar.” [Source: Mukhtasar Basa’er Al-Darajat Hassan son of Suleiman Al-Hilli p.76 and in another print p.234 Bihar Al-Anwar v.2 p.211]

Al Safar narrated from Muhammad son of Al Hussein from Muhammad son of Ismael from Hamza son of Bazee from Ali AlSinany from Abi Al Hassan (عليه السلام) that he (عليه السلام) wrote to him in a letter “Do not say to what has been mentioned by us Baatil(false/void) even if you know that it is the opposite, you do not know why we have said it and on what face and description.” [Source: Basaer AlDarajat Muhammad son of AlHassan AlSafar p.558/AlKafi v.8 p.25/Bihar Al Anwar v.2 p.209]

This is answer to your question. Its about when to reject the hadith of liar. The condition on which hadith of liar is reject is the same condition on which haidth of most thiqa narrator or chain would be rejected.

Else its Imams order to accept that hadith else if u call em liar then you have called Imam (عليه السلام) a liar. So one better be safe than sorry.

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On 11/14/2019 at 12:48 AM, Muhammed Ali said:

So in your opinion if it's from a fasiq but doesn't contradict the Qur'an, it should be accepted? If it is from a fasiq and does contradict the Qur'an, we should "investigate" it? But what constitutes investigation? Please explain how do go about investigating a hadith narrated by a wrong doer?

Investigation brother you know much more than me.

I will quickly quote some of hadiths I read in my own wordings.

1. Leave whatever contradict Qur'an.

2. If narration reaches you thorugh our thiqa narrators accept it and thank Allah.

3. You got two haidiths, one goes inline with Sunnis Ama and other opposite, take the opposite in it would be guidence.

4. Don't call anyone liar when he narrates Hadith to you,  els u called Imam a liar.

(Investigate using above principles)

And there will be much more than these which I don't know. Also read again hadiths quoted above. One whoese mind doesnt accept our hadith and be tries to reject it see what will happen to him

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On 11/14/2019 at 10:04 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Oh come on... I can clearly see that one in this case is fabricating a tradition towards Imam e Sadiq (عليه السلام) so why would I accept it?

Its about what muhadiths narrated as Imam (عليه السلام) also said refer to people who narrate our hadiths.

@Mahdavist if you read the hadiths I quoted, you wouldn't have replied like that.

People here first need to define what a reliable hadith is.

According to you its at least a acceptable sanad. Now we all know that hadith is basis of Islam, and you are using self derieved methods (ilm-ur-rijal) to establish the basis. For something to be of that much importance, it should have nas from Imams (عليه السلام) else the thing which is actually forming basis of our fiqh would be qiyas and biddah, since we are establishing deen using it.

Biography and ilm-ur-rijal being a science and field isnt a biddah.

I hope that you people got my point.

Any of such un reliable tradition would be in contradiction with Qur'an directly or in directly because its the principle given to us not by people, but by our Imams and Imam of our Imams Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). therefore we will discard any narration in contradiction with core shii beliefs and Qur'an. This is the only thing that should form the basis of establishing reliability of hadiths since its comming from Imams (عليه السلام)

 

As for isnad, the are important no one denies and one hadith I quoted above, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said mention the sanad when you present a hadith. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) also mentioned that if its truth, you Will get reward and if its fabrication then it will not be upon you. Thus its serves the purpose why scholors old ones have mentioned hadiths along with isnad.

 

This is answer to your question. Its about when to reject the hadith of liar. The condition on which hadith of liar is reject is the same condition on which haidth of most thiqa narrator or chain would be rejected.

Else its Imams order to accept that hadith else if u call em liar then you have called Imam (عليه السلام) a liar. So one better be safe than sorry.

The conclusions you are putting forward seem to be contradictory. You say hadith is the basis of Islam and trying to authenticate hadith is qiyaas and/or bid'ah (as brother @Muhammed Ali has pointed out above, by definition it makes no sense to label this bid'ah). 

You recognize that the guideline for the acceptance of a hadith is the Qur'an (we agree on this point), yet when the very same Qur'an instructs us to investigate a report that is brought to us you say hadith and narrators should not be investigated.

In addition to the Qur'an you say core shi'I beliefs are also a guideline for acceptance of hadith - this is a logical absurdity because now you want to use hadith to validate hadith. Furthermore it implies that core shi'I beliefs are separate from the Qur'an - is this really your position? 

Finally you mention, be safe rather than sorry. I would say that those who are strict with the guidelines of accepting narrations are indeed being safe rather than sorry. 

At the end of the day, while rejecting the methodology of analyzing hadith you are still inadvertently introducing criteria for analyzing them (matn, sanad, consistency with shi'I beliefs). This is why I mentioned in my last post that while ilm ul hadith and ilm ul rijal were not explicitly defined by the aimmah (عليه السلام), the methodology is consistent with the guidelines that we find in the Qur'an, in hadith and also through logical reasoning ('aql). 

Wallahu a'lam

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17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Investigation brother you know much more than me.

I will quickly quote some of hadiths I read in my own wordings.

1. Leave whatever contradict Qur'an.

2. If narration reaches you thorugh our thiqa narrators accept it and thank Allah.

3. You got two haidiths, one goes inline with Sunnis Ama and other opposite, take the opposite in it would be guidence.

4. Don't call anyone liar when he narrates Hadith to you,  els u called Imam a liar.

(Investigate using above principles)

And there will be much more than these which I don't know. Also read again hadiths quoted above. One whoese mind doesnt accept our hadith and be tries to reject it see what will happen to him

If you combine the few points you mentioned with the ones you are perhaps not aware of then you pretty much end up with ilm ul hadith and ilm ul rijal (which is the same thing you claim to be rejecting). 

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 11/13/2019 at 3:15 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

From Ahmad son of Muhammad son of Eissa from Al-Hussein son of Sa’eed and Muhammad son of Khaled Al-Burqi from Abdullah son of Jundub from Sufyani son of Al-Simd he said I said to Abi Abdullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) may I be your ransom a man comes to us with lies, he mentioned a hadeeth and we consider him disgusting. Abi Abdullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says, “Did he say to you that night is day and day is night?” He said no. He said, “If he said to you this do not say he is a liar or else you are calling me a liar.” [Source: Mukhtasar Basa’er Al-Darajat Hassan son of Suleiman Al-Hilli p.76 and in another print p.234 Bihar Al-Anwar v.2 p.211]

Al Safar narrated from Muhammad son of Al Hussein from Muhammad son of Ismael from Hamza son of Bazee from Ali AlSinany from Abi Al Hassan (عليه السلام) that he (عليه السلام) wrote to him in a letter “Do not say to what has been mentioned by us Baatil(false/void) even if you know that it is the opposite, you do not know why we have said it and on what face and description.” [Source: Basaer AlDarajat Muhammad son of AlHassan AlSafar p.558/AlKafi v.8 p.25/Bihar Al Anwar v.2 p.209]

Important close();

Thanks for sharing the hadith but I could not find this text in the given references in Arabic or English.

However I like to quote few hadith regarding the hadeeth of Imams that I have got from the references:

From: Basair Darjat Vol 1:

CHAPTER   11      REGARDING   THE   Imamsasws      OF   THE   PROGENY   OF Muhammadsaww, THEIRasws  HADEETH ARE DIFFICULT AND BECOME MORE DIFFICULT

 

1Narrated to me Muhammad Bin Al-Husayn Bin Abu Al-Khataab, from Muhammad Bin Sinan, from  Amaar Bin Marwaan, from Al-Munkhal, from Jabir who said:

‘Abu  Ja’farasws   said  that  the  Messenger  of  Allahsaww   said:  ‘The  Hadeeth  of  the Progenyasws  of Muhammadsaww  are difficult, no one will believe in them except an Angel of Proximity, or a ‘Mursil’  Prophetas, or a servant whose heart has been tested for faith.

As for what comes to you from the Hadeeth of the Progeny asws  of Muhammad saww, soften your hearts and understand it, accept it, and do not be disgusted by your hearts  and  reject  them,  (if  unsure)  refer  them  back  to  Allah azwj   and  to  the Messenger saww    and   to   the   knowledgeable   one   from   the   Progeny asws   of Muhammad saww.  And he will (certainly) be destroyed, the one who narrated from that which he has not been able to bear, and who says, ‘By Allah azwj this was not it, this was not it, this was not it.’

 

16 And Al-MufazzAl-said:

Abu  Ja’farasws   said:  ‘Ourasws   Hadeeth  are  difficult  and  become  more  difficult, intelligent,  clear,  the  Angel  of  Proximity  cannot  bear  them,  nor  can  the  Mursil Prophetas, nor the believer whose heart has been tested for faith. As for they being difficult, it is that he will not be able to ride them afterwards (act upon them), and as for them becoming more difficult, it is that he will fight against some of them, and as for they being intelligent, it is the intelligence of the believer, and as for them being clear, it is that with which he attaches by it to something in front of him, and not from behind him, and this is the Statement of Allahazwj  [39:23] Allah has revealed the best announcement. The  best  Hadeeth  are  ourasws   Hadeeth,  no  one  from  the creation is able to bear them, Hisazwj Order was Hisazwj Perfection until Heazwj Placed limits on them because the one who places limits on anything is greater than it, and Praise be to Allahazwj for those who incline towards them, and the denier is an infidel.’

 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 11/15/2019 at 4:14 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

2. If narration reaches you thorugh our thiqa narrators accept it and thank Allah.

How are you supposed to know if the narrator is "thiqa" without ilm al-rijal?

Quote

its pointless to check whether narrator is thiqa or not.

Then how will you ever fulfill point 2 in your list?

Quote

This tool of yours is useless since Qur'an orders to investigate report of wrongdoer /fasiq etc thus its pointless to check whether narrator is thiqa or not.

So you are not supposed to check if the narrator is reliable, but if they are not reliable (which you are not allowed to check) you have to "investigate"?

I know how other malangs deal with this verse and you may have understood it a bit different from them.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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On 11/15/2019 at 4:14 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I will quickly quote some of hadiths I read in my own wordings.

1. Leave whatever contradict Qur'an.

2. If narration reaches you thorugh our thiqa narrators accept it and thank Allah.

3. You got two haidiths, one goes inline with Sunnis Ama and other opposite, take the opposite in it would be guidence.

4. Don't call anyone liar when he narrates Hadith to you,  els u called Imam a liar.

How do you know if any of those ahadith are authentic? Your approach just assumes that they are authentic and then from there you use those same ahadith to authenticate other ahadith?

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On 11/16/2019 at 2:54 AM, Mahdavist said:

The conclusions you are putting forward seem to be contradictory. You say hadith is the basis of Islam and trying to authenticate hadith is qiyaas and/or bid'ah (as brother @Muhammed Ali has pointed out above, by definition it makes no sense to label this bid'ah). 

You recognize that the guideline for the acceptance of a hadith is the Qur'an (we agree on this point), yet when the very same Qur'an instructs us to investigate a report that is brought to us you say hadith and narrators should not be investigated.

In addition to the Qur'an you say core shi'I beliefs are also a guideline for acceptance of hadith - this is a logical absurdity because now you want to use hadith to validate hadith. Furthermore it implies that core shi'I beliefs are separate from the Qur'an - is this really your position? 

Finally you mention, be safe rather than sorry. I would say that those who are strict with the guidelines of accepting narrations are indeed being safe rather than sorry. 

At the end of the day, while rejecting the methodology of analyzing hadith you are still inadvertently introducing criteria for analyzing them (matn, sanad, consistency with shi'I beliefs). This is why I mentioned in my last post that while ilm ul hadith and ilm ul rijal were not explicitly defined by the aimmah (عليه السلام), the methodology is consistent with the guidelines that we find in the Qur'an, in hadith and also through logical reasoning ('aql). 

Wallahu a'lam

1. You said: you say hadith is the basis of Islam and trying to authenticate hadith is qiyaas and/or bid'ah

What can I say to you since you never read my entire line.
While I was presenting the ayah that says investigate the report, 

then why would I say that investigating a hadith is biddah?
Investigation of hadith is necessary as its the order of Qur'an 
but question is how shall we investigate? 
Hadith is basis of deen, and its well known fact that to use something in Islam,
to establish something, we must have a nas from masomeen (عليه السلام)
Therefore the methods of investigation given by Imam (عليه السلام). are the ones that shall
be used for investigation.
As for Ilm-ur-Rijal, its a science of men
Its a field of Ilm and it isn't a biddah by itself.
But using something which has no nas from Imams (عليه السلام) to establish
the basis of deen (hadith) is what I called a biddah.
Since Authenticity of hadith as explained by ilm-ur-rijal is contrary to what
Qur'an tells us (Investigate report of a wrong doer as well) while in ilm-ur-rijal
reports of fasiq and liars are weak. 

2. You recognize that the guideline for the acceptance of a hadith is the Qur'an (we agree on this point), yet when the very same Qur'an instructs us to investigate a report that is brought to us you say hadith and narrators should not be investigated.

Qur'an asks us to investigate a report, and this investigation is based upon the laws presented by Aimah (عليه السلام). Since investigation of report of wrong doer liar or fasiq 
is not addressed in ilm-ur-rijal, such a report is immediately termed as weak. Which contradicts Qur'an.


3. In addition to the Qur'an you say core shi'I beliefs are also a guideline for acceptance of hadith - this is a logical absurdity because now you want to use hadith to validate hadith. Furthermore it implies that core shi'I beliefs are separate from the Qur'an - is this really your position? 

Since those core Shia believes have nas from Imams (عليه السلام) 
It doesn't imply in any ways that core Shia beliefs are seperate from Qur'an since all core beliefs 
are established from Qur'an.

Now the question is, its logically absurd to use hadith to validate a hadith
That's where you are using Qiyas.
Example, all Shia believe that reject whatever contradict Qur'an, accepted by your people above in comments*
and this comes from a hadith, you are also using one hadith to validate or in validate other hadiths like those hadiths
of fight  between Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Fatimah Syeda S.A .

These hadiths have reached us and Imam (عليه السلام) also told us not to deny the hadiths. as mentioned above.

4. Finally you mention, be safe rather than sorry. I would say that those who are strict with the guidelines of accepting narrations are indeed being safe rather than sorry. 

Strict in accepting narrations, while those rules based on which the authenticate hadith goes against Qur'an and hadiths of Imams?
Establishing anything of Islam without a nas from Imam (عليه السلام) is biddah
Above ayah and hadiths goes against this self derieved ilm-ur-rijal based authentication of hadiths.


5. also through logical reasoning ('aql). 

Qiyas is done from feet? or perhaps shoulders? 
Show the nas on ilm-ur-rijal from Imams (عليه السلام).
else without a nas, using it in deen and establishing deen from it would be biddah.

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On 11/17/2019 at 7:21 AM, Muhammed Ali said:

How are you supposed to know if the narrator is "thiqa" without ilm al-rijal?

Then how will you ever fulfill point 2 in your list?

So you are not supposed to check if the narrator is reliable, but if they are not reliable (which you are not allowed to check) you have to "investigate"?

I know how other malangs deal with this verse and you may have understood it a bit different from them.


Do you have to look into books to check that Sistani is thiqa and Shia?
Do you have to look in books to check whether Khamenai is Thiqa and Shia?

Same goes for early ages
We are Shia and we know our top scholors and we don't have to refer to books to check their status
but big names will continue to travel through generations to generations.
like kulayni sadooq etc you know much more than me.
 

But one can also refer to Ilm-ur-rijal books to check their status.
Problem is not with checking their status
problem is by limiting authentication of hadith to them only
which goes against many hadiths and even ayah of Qur'an.

As I mentioned clearly that ilm-ur-rijal isn't a bidah by itself
its a field on science and is good to know that
and if we can have account of our thiqa narratiors
there is no harm in that and why should it be.

But limiting authentication of hadiths to them 
is biddah. 
I didn't call ilm e rijal itself a biddah
establishing basis of religion using self derieved way is a biddah
a way that has no nas
not only that it goes against many hadiths quoted above.

On 11/17/2019 at 7:47 AM, Muhammed Ali said:

How do you know if any of those ahadith are authentic? Your approach just assumes that they are authentic and then from there you use those same ahadith to authenticate other ahadith?

I assume?
and you establish hadiths by? Qiyas?
by Biddah? By methods having no nas?

In above hadiths Imam (عليه السلام) has said if a hadith reachers you*** end quote

Has those hadiths not reached us? 
is following Imam's order assumption?

Then how about you who is going against Imam's orders?
by rejecting hadiths just by examming sanad.
which is totally base less

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Finally I found a hadith from old thread:

Al-Kafi, H 198, Chapter 22, hadith 2
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from ?Abdallah ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Hakam from Aban ibn ?Uthman from 'Abdallah ibn Abu Ya?fur who has said the following.

"In a meeting where ibn abi Ya?fur was also present I asked Imam Abu ?Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) about the differences in Hadith which is narrated from people whom we trust and yet from other people we do not trust." The Imam replied, "If you come across a Hadith and you find evidence in the holy Qur'an to support it or in Hadith of the holy Prophet (you may follow it), otherwise, you follow the one that has come to you through the trustworthy narrator."

I wanted such hadiths.
But even if such hadith is presented, it differs alot from concept of authentication given by  ilm-ur-rijal.
Though it partially proves that if we technically can't determine that hadith is Contradicting Qur'an or not,
then we should accept the hadith of trustworthy narrator. 

Two Conditions:
1. Two hadiths that reach us are contradicting
2. We can’t find evidence of it from Qur'an
Then we should accept hadith coming through trustworthy narrator.

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On 11/13/2019 at 6:57 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

As salam o aliakum.
I was a supporter of Ilm-ur-rijal and thought that it was much more logical and thought that people who don't use it and who call it an innovation are strange.
I read a few threads on it, in support of it and against it.
 

I will begin with an Ayah usually presented by people in support of ilm-ur-Rijal and then will begin with a question.

Qur'an 49:6:


O you who have believed, if there comes to you a wrongdoer with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.

All of us (Shias) believe that Qiyas in deen is haram.
Ayah says if a fasiq / wrongdoer comes to you with information, then investigate it,
whereas in science of hadith, hadith coming from liar/weak/wrongdoer/Sunni (Sihaah sitta and others) etc is rejected immediately.
We are told to investigate, and without qiyas, we have hadiths from Imam that accept whatever doesn't contradicts Qur'an.
So this ayah in no way proves ilm-ur-rijal rather ilm-ur-rijal goes against this ayah.

Now Question is, mostly anti-ilm -ur -rijali people say that Ilm-ur-rijal is biddat (innovation) and people reply them that there is no nas hadith or any Imam who called it biddah and also its just biography of men, a science, how can field of knowledge be biddah? if thats so then new fields (sub fields) we have today are all biddah especially field of engineering since it wasn't in the era of Imams (عليه السلام)
Now ilm-ur-rijal itself as biography of men, is not a biddah of course.
but using something, as basis of extracting deen, basis of establishing principle of deen without any nas of masoom is for sure a biddah.

This discussion is meant for a good conversation and please share your ideas here.

Biddah is one which is not in Shariah, but in Qur'an, it is written that momineen are helpers of each other. So, through this verse its sanctioned. Albeit, the real thing in hadith that matters mostly is its content. It may be that a trusted narrator forgot something or was not well heard and hadith got wrong and it may be that a bad person uttered a truth before some people. So, what actually matters is whether:

1. Matan is in agreement with Qur'an;

2. Matan is in agreement with the various accounts of Muslim history;

3. Matan is in agreement with universal nature.

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