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In the Name of God بسم الله

What makes a relationship haram

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Natsu

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I have a girlfriend,and when we started getting into a relationship we used to touch and hold each other,until one day I felt really weird and like I knew it was a sin but my heart was not at ease,we repented from it months ago and we stopped touching or holding each other,the most we do is shake hands when we meet,Now we plan to marry in’shaa’Allah in the future and until then we want to keep everything halal between both of us,when we hang out we don’t hang out by ourselves cause we know it will lead to a sin so we always go out with friends andd we read Qur'an together and try to get more knowledge and help each other,she helps me when im doing something wrong and she even reminds me to pray when I forget and stuff,anyways if I could I would marry her right now but unfortunately its not possible in this modern age cause I should finish my studies and get a job first,Now until then we will do everything we can to keep our relationship halal,our parents know about us as well that we hangout and stuff but what other things do you we shoukd avoid to not make this relationship haram?its been bothering me for a while.

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You both are Na-mahram to each other and by Islamic standards you cannot even joke.

4 minutes ago, Natsu said:

Now until then we will do everything we can to keep our relationship halal,our parents know about us as well

Mut'ah would be the only option if you don't want to permanently marry. Since you have realized, do Astaghfaar. Involve your parents and start a halal relationship. Permission of girl's guardian would be mandatory. 

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1 hour ago, Revert1963 said:

Not just the only option but the right option. I would say that this kind of situation is what Mut'ah was intended for.

Not really. There is nothing to stop them from performing the nikah here.

Mut'ah makes sense for temporary relationships (for example if someone is travelling abroad for a period of time, like in the old days during wars). It was not introduced as some form of 'engagement' (although people seem to have misnterpreted it as such in recent times).

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anyways if I could I would marry her right now but unfortunately its not possible in this modern age cause I should finish my studies and get a job first

Neither of these are a prerequisite for the nikah. I would recommend that you perform the religious marriage and continue studying.

Wallahu a'lam 

 

Edited by Mahdavist
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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

There is nothing to stop them from performing the nikah here.

Except maybe money, employment, studies, family issues and other practical things that make it difficult for them to do nikah at this particular time in their lives.
 

1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Mut'ah makes sense for temporary relationships (for example if someone is travelling abroad for a period of time, like in the old days during wars).

That would essentially make it prostitution. This interpretation is what leads to the kind of abuse scandals that has been in the news from Iraq recently that some Imams is running prostitution rings from Mosques. It also validates some of the arguments against Shiism that some Sunnis have that Mut'ah is really just masquerading prostitution. Even though the "jihadi bride" thing of the Salafis is also a height problematic practice at least they do proper Nikah and stay married after they are done with their terrorist activities. The Qur'an and several hadiths recognise that prostitution is a bad thing, then why would the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then make it legal by calling it Mut'ah? It doesn't make sense.

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6 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

Except maybe money, employment, studies, family issues and other practical things that make it difficult for them to do nikah at this particular time in their lives

None of these are prerequisites for the recitation of the nikah. It's basically a religious ceremony that makes them halal for one another. They can continue studying in the same way they would have been doing anyway.

 

Quote

That would essentially make it prostitution. This interpretation is what leads to the kind of abuse scandals that has been in the news from Iraq recently that some Imams is running prostitution rings from Mosques.

No it doesn't make it prostitution. By that logic marrying someone and then divorcing them soon after would also be prostitution, naudhubillah. 

Also note that mut'ah in Arabic can be translated as enjoyment or pleasure. The notion that it can only be used in very specific circumstances is misleading.

 

Quote

It also validates some of the arguments against Shiism that some Sunnis have that Mut'ah is really just masquerading prostitution.

If a Sunni or any Muslim says such a thing they are making a series error because it is proven that mut'ah was permitted and practiced during the time of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). To call it prostitution is a serious and dangerous allegation. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from such things. 

 

Quote

Even though the "jihadi bride" thing of the Salafis is also a height problematic practice at least they do proper Nikah and stay married after they are done with their terrorist activities.

 

I don't see how it is problematic in itself. The only issue would be if the bride was not previously married in which case she needs the permission of a guardian. Apart from this there is no issue at all.

 

Quote

The Qur'an and several hadiths recognise that prostitution is a bad thing, then why would the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then make it legal by calling it Mut'ah? It doesn't make sense.

Mut'ah, like nikah, is marriage. Sex without marriage is fornication, sex after marriage is fully halal and even encouraged and rewarded. Your logic is like saying that fornication was made halal in the form of nika and mut'ah, which is a logical absurdity.

Wallahu a'lam 

Edited by Mahdavist
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6 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

None of these are prerequisites for the recitation of the nikah. It's basically a religious ceremony that makes them halal for one another. They can continue studying in the same way they would have been doing anyway.

Who will take care of living expenses? It's husband duty to provide a place to live , food, clothing etc for wife.

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Who would take care of them if they delayed the nikah for several years? 

???? 

What do you mean? sexual urges? Self control is the answer. While it isn't easy its not impossible. Halal option can get complicated and ugly very soon if they don't have a place to live or the husband cannot afford to provide food for the wife, or even worse a baby comes into the picture. I am not saying young people wait to get married until they have made down payment for a house, have enough money for a big dowry, lavish wedding and honeymoon but at least be self sufficient with the basic needs. 

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51 minutes ago, starlight said:

???? 

What do you mean? sexual urges? Self control is the answer. While it isn't easy its not impossible. Halal option can get complicated and ugly very soon if they don't have a place to live or the husband cannot afford to provide food for the wife, or even worse a baby comes into the picture. I am not saying young people wait to get married until they have made down payment for a house, have enough money for a big dowry, lavish wedding and honeymoon but at least be self sufficient with the basic needs. 

I mean if they delay their marriage for several years, they will still need to finance their studies anyway right (with or without the nikah)? Wallahu a'lam 

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1 hour ago, habib e najjaar said:

While this will help make the relationship halal, for the most part, marriages where parties are unable to fulfil their mutual rights and obligations end up becoming very strained and mainly end in disaster. There is a hikmah in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) making certain duties incumbent upon parties in a marriage. In ahkaam, the right to nafaqah is very interlinked with the right to conjugal rights, so if you skew the relationship from the start, it could lead to very unsavory things being said a little way down the line. Family providing fully will also mean most families will feel they can interfere fully: when to have kids, where you should live, if you can go out or not, what level you must study to, etc.

The ideal situation would be for the man to get financial independence or self reliance asap, and the woman, if she is in a rush to marry him, to accept a simple life while they are growing together, and to support each other the best way they can.

 

So in summary, if someone studies without marrying their parents can pay for their education, but if at any point they decide to start a halal relationship then the funding is stopped? 

So their options are 

1. Abandon education and marry

2. Abandon marriage and study

Subhanallah. 

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5 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

they will still need to finance their studies

But it's just the study then.In majority of the cases young people from Muslim families live with their parents until their marriage,especially the daughters and  parents help out with the college fees etc. 

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25 minutes ago, starlight said:

But it's just the study then.In majority of the cases young people from Muslim families live with their parents until their marriage,especially the daughters and  parents help out with the college fees etc. 

Exactly and what I suggest is that they  can continue doing so until they finish their studies even while being married. 

Wallahu a'lam. 

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

So in summary, if someone studies without marrying their parents can pay for their education, but if at any point they decide to start a halal relationship then the funding is stopped? 

So their options are 

1. Abandon education and marry

2. Abandon marriage and study

Subhanallah. 

No, education normally still ends up being supported by parents. It is the other obligations like needing a separate house, medical expenses related to pregnancy, child care  baby sitting, decision making (is a daughter living in and being supported by her father and married shar'an more obliged to obey her husband or her father?).

I reiterate, ita3ah and submission and obedience to a husband, and provision of conjugal rights has been inextricably linked in ahkaam to provision of maintenance. So in couples being advised to gain some minimal form of independence to marry, this is for their own long term good and to enable them live harmoniously.

This is not about cutting off funding. Most Muslim parents are extremely supportive of their children. Just the fact that they are not kicked out of their parents houses at 18 is proof of this. But there is a thin line between parties being supported and parties being encouraged to take advantage of others.

Islam wants people to engage only in halal relationships, but it also wants Muslims to perform their wajibaat and to be responsible, well mannered, useful human beings. It is not a religion of ensuring people following or applying laws in a way that destroys the entire fabric of society.

Example: It is halal for a financially dependent youth to spend his pocket money to engage in endless mutah to keep his anatomy happy. But does this halal conform with the purpose of creation, and the realisation of perfection and attainment of a better moral and spiritual status? No.

This is what is the core issue here. 

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On 11/13/2019 at 5:16 AM, Mahdavist said:
Quote

Even though the "jihadi bride" thing of the Salafis is also a height problematic practice at least they do proper Nikah and stay married after they are done with their terrorist activities.

 

I don't see how it is problematic in itself.

Then watch this

 

Edited by Revert1963
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On 11/13/2019 at 12:26 AM, habib e najjaar said:

While this will help make the relationship halal, for the most part, marriages where parties are unable to fulfil their mutual rights and obligations end up becoming very strained and mainly end in disaster. There is a hikmah in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) making certain duties incumbent upon parties in a marriage. In ahkaam, the right to nafaqah is very interlinked with the right to conjugal rights, so if you skew the relationship from the start, it could lead to very unsavory things being said a little way down the line. Family providing fully will also mean most families will feel they can interfere fully: when to have kids, where you should live, if you can go out or not, what level you must study to, etc.

The ideal situation would be for the man to get financial independence or self reliance asap, and the woman, if she is in a rush to marry him, to accept a simple life while they are growing together, and to support each other the best way they can.

 

the idea they should have financial independance before marriage is wrong. If the marriage ends up in disaster hypothetically speaking brother it is still better than committing sins as the brother said was being done before this type of atttude is what creates sin. Remember that at most divorce is MAKRUH.

Nafaqah is a right not a strict ahkam rule. These rights in marriage should not be abused by both parites and we have hadiths were a wife is told not to expect her husband to provide more than what he is capable of. Allah provides for us when we get married. Sustenance increases as he has said in the quran.

 

Edited by TryHard
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On 11/13/2019 at 12:48 AM, starlight said:

???? 

What do you mean? sexual urges? Self control is the answer. While it isn't easy its not impossible. Halal option can get complicated and ugly very soon if they don't have a place to live or the husband cannot afford to provide food for the wife, or even worse a baby comes into the picture. I am not saying young people wait to get married until they have made down payment for a house, have enough money for a big dowry, lavish wedding and honeymoon but at least be self sufficient with the basic needs. 

the problem with what your'e saying is its not what Islam says. 

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On 11/13/2019 at 4:32 AM, habib e najjaar said:

No, education normally still ends up being supported by parents. It is the other obligations like needing a separate house, medical expenses related to pregnancy, child care  baby sitting, decision making (is a daughter living in and being supported by her father and married shar'an more obliged to obey her husband or her father?).

I reiterate, ita3ah and submission and obedience to a husband, and provision of conjugal rights has been inextricably linked in ahkaam to provision of maintenance. So in couples being advised to gain some minimal form of independence to marry, this is for their own long term good and to enable them live harmoniously.

This is not about cutting off funding. Most Muslim parents are extremely supportive of their children. Just the fact that they are not kicked out of their parents houses at 18 is proof of this. But there is a thin line between parties being supported and parties being encouraged to take advantage of others.

Islam wants people to engage only in halal relationships, but it also wants Muslims to perform their wajibaat and to be responsible, well mannered, useful human beings. It is not a religion of ensuring people following or applying laws in a way that destroys the entire fabric of society.

Example: It is halal for a financially dependent youth to spend his pocket money to engage in endless mutah to keep his anatomy happy. But does this halal conform with the purpose of creation, and the realisation of perfection and attainment of a better moral and spiritual status? No.

This is what is the core issue here. 

The things you mentioned are not obligations at all. Nafaqah is based upon what a husband can provide for his wife based on the income he has when marrying things like having a separate house and what not are not necessary. I have seen couples live with their families. As such the sexual right of a husband is different from nafaqah. But again I will state again these rights should not be abused by both parties as they can be.  

As for mutah not only is it halal but mustahab. Also what you say on Mutah is wrong because I have never nce seen a person use mutah in the way you mentioned in fact most people I know who have done it don't engage it in that way cause its not practical at all. Enough said.

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2 minutes ago, TryHard said:

 Nafaqah is based upon what a husband can provide for his wife based on the income he has when marrying things like having a separate house and what not are not necessary. I have seen couples live with their families. As such the sexual right of a husband is different from nafaqah. 

Nafaqah is based on what he can provide. Agreed. Including if he is living off his parents and they decide to pay his and his wife's maintenance. Doesn't change that it is his DUTY though, and if he becomes unable to provide nafaqah, the shariah allows her to seek a divorce on that basis alone, all else aside. Do you acknowledge this?

Who said a separate house is necessary? As long as he is able to provide a place where she can be his wife and be in peace (not a joint family maid or a constantly harassed daughter in law living under rules other than her own husband's. ) All we are saying is, while we all acknowledge the possibility of marrying under several compromises, the practicality is another matter. And no, marriage is not a joke for one to enter already planning a divorce/exit from. A divorce must be avoided by all means, including planning how to avoid tension that will lead to one.

Also, consult your marja on the interlink between nafaqah and tamkeen and when a woman can refuse to provide tamkeen.

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Just now, habib e najjaar said:

So basically when the religion says that marriage is for من استطاع i.e the one with means to provide (even simply), and those who cannot, should fast - it has no basis or interlink with some form of financial capacity? 

A divorce is technically makruh as you say, but then a marriage is also mustahab, not wajib.

Thats not what the religion says I can show you hadiths where the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) married people who had literally nothing but the clothes on their back actually a lot of the muhajiroon left their homes and didnt have much in the begining of Islam. Remember the Quran 24:32 "Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, God will give them means out of His grace: for God encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things."

When the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says those who cannot marry it means things like they cant find a spouse, not that the person has no money otherwise that would contradict the Quran. 

According to our fiqh Marriage is wajib if a person is falling into sin like the brother mentioned in the beginning so I would argue in his case it is wajib for them to marry not just mustahab as you put it. Aside from the fact that many youths are going through this very thing committing sins when they are not married.

10 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

But if a person marries, he and she take on WAJIB roles and duties and responsibilities. For example, a woman had the option not to get married, but once married, it becomes haram to deny her husband conjugal rights. It is mustahab for a man to marry, and he may choose not to, but once he does, it becomes WAJIB for him to provide nafaqah. This is the part people want to bury their heads in the sand about.

these wajib roles depend on various factors and again they are supposed to be looked as favors according to our scholars not wajib roles that we demand from the other. At the same time a husband shouldnt take advantage of his rights. Again nafaqah is based on what a husband is able to provide when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) got married to Fatima (عليه السلام) he had nothing many are like that.

 

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10 minutes ago, TryHard said:

As for mutah not only is it halal but mustahab. Also what you say on Mutah is wrong because I have never nce seen a person use mutah in the way you mentioned in fact most people I know who have done it don't engage it in that way cause its not practical at all. Enough said.

If we are basing the arguments on your personal experiences, then you are entitled to keep the opinion. A discussion is meant to know other perspectives and weigh them against our own personal limited knowledge and experience.

My experience: you would be shocked to know the extents to which mutah is abused. If you have not come across incidences of its abuse  alhamdulillah, good for you. Doesn't mean it is not happening.

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2 minutes ago, TryHard said:

When the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says those who cannot marry it means things like they cant find a spouse, not that the person has no money otherwise that would contradict the Quran. 

 

Interesting. So why did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ask Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to bring whatever he has to marry lady Fatima (عليه السلام)? Why not just hand her over to the best of spouses? Do you know the story of her mahr and what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) provided? Why not just accept the proposal and let them go sort whatever life would bring their way? 

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2 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Nafaqah is based on what he can provide. Agreed. Including if he is living off his parents and they decide to pay his and his wife's maintenance. Doesn't change that it is his DUTY though, and if he becomes unable to provide nafaqah, the shariah allows her to seek a divorce on that basis alone, all else aside. Do you acknowledge this?

she cant divorce him based on that as far as I know. the only way I believe that can happen is if its in such a way that a mujtahid or his representative feels the situation is really harmful and bad for the women and cant be resolved otherwise its a known fact that the right to divorce is with the husband. If women want a divorce they need a mujtahid to do that in some way. 

6 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Who said a separate house is necessary? As long as he is able to provide a place where she can be his wife and be in peace (not a joint family maid or a constantly harassed daughter in law living under rules other than her own husband's. )

you said it here

On 11/13/2019 at 4:32 AM, habib e najjaar said:

It is the other obligations like needing a separate house, medical expenses related to pregnancy, child care  baby sitting, decision making.

if I misunderstood than I apologize but it seemed to me like you said having a separate house was necessary if not than no harm done.

as for being harassed by in laws they get harassed even if they aren't living together but I have seen in people live together with in laws and family either way.  If you think thats bad dont get married but living with in laws doesn't disqualify a person from being married and it certainly doesn't allow for divorce my uncle lived with my mom and dad for a while that didnt mean my mom could seek a divorce or that my dad was not providing for her. 

11 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

And no, marriage is not a joke for one to enter already planning a divorce/exit from. A divorce must be avoided by all means, including planning how to avoid tension that will lead to one.

No one goes into marriage looking for a divorce. Marrying with little to no money does not mean you are looking to divorce either. At the end of the day though pornography, masturbation, girlfriends/zina are all haram marrying then maybe, maybe and I again REPEAT MAYBE divorcing in the end is only mukrooh. 

15 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Also, consult your marja on the interlink between nafaqah and tamkeen and when a woman can refuse to provide tamkeen.

sure Ill post fatwas here..

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20 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Interesting. So why did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ask Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to bring whatever he has to marry lady Fatima (عليه السلام)? Why not just hand her over to the best of spouses? Do you know the story of her mahr and what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) provided? Why not just accept the proposal and let them go sort whatever life would bring their way? 

ya he had nothing the only thing he had was his shield and a camel he sold his shield and he got a few dirhams that became Al Zahra (عليه السلام) dowry. It was not an expensive dowry in fact that was the moral of the story not to have a huge extravagant dowry. That actually destroys your entire argument and point even though it is not about nafaqah at all. My point was people should provide what they have not have a separate house and as you and others put it be financial independent. But if we look at it from that angle there is the story of how fatima (عليه السلام) didnt ask Imam Ali (عليه السلام) when she needed flour if I remember correctly because she was too shy and how they gave the only few pieces of bread they had to the poor, orphan, and the prisoner of war. I emphasize here the ONLY FOOD THEY HAD. Feeding others when they had no food themselves. Is that really an example of the nafaqah you are talking about? 

I don't think so.

Edited by TryHard
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Ok brother/sister @TryHard . In the end, to each his own. We see differently on this issue and I dont think either of us is going to change their stance.

Perhaps my sense of understanding has been marred/clouded by a recently ended 7 year marriage that was unable to survive some of the things mentioned above  and patience, compromise and accepting a simple life did nothing to change that.

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18 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Ok brother/sister @TryHard . In the end, to each his own. We see differently on this issue and I dont think either of us is going to change their stance.

Perhaps my sense of understanding has been marred/clouded by a recently ended 7 year marriage that was unable to survive some of the things mentioned above  and patience, compromise and accepting a simple life did nothing to change that.

Brother. And I am very sorry about your divorce inshallah Allah provides you with another spouse and a happy marriage.

Edited by TryHard
needed to change to be ughh gender neutral hate that word
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On 11/12/2019 at 5:08 PM, Natsu said:

I have a girlfriend,and when we started getting into a relationship we used to touch and hold each other,until one day I felt really weird and like I knew it was a sin but my heart was not at ease,we repented from it months ago and we stopped touching or holding each other,the most we do is shake hands when we meet,Now we plan to marry in’shaa’Allah in the future and until then we want to keep everything halal between both of us,when we hang out we don’t hang out by ourselves cause we know it will lead to a sin so we always go out with friends andd we read Qur'an together and try to get more knowledge and help each other,she helps me when im doing something wrong and she even reminds me to pray when I forget and stuff,anyways if I could I would marry her right now but unfortunately its not possible in this modern age cause I should finish my studies and get a job first,Now until then we will do everything we can to keep our relationship halal,our parents know about us as well that we hangout and stuff but what other things do you we shoukd avoid to not make this relationship haram?its been bothering me for a while.

Personally, i believe that if its a relationship with no sex then its fine. I think in this generation its a bit harder to get engaged to someone you barely know and getting to know them during your engagement. I think that a relationship is the best way to get to know your partner. 

For the case of mutah, i've read that the female has to be a non-virgin to do mutah (not 100% sure). Therefore, if shes not a virgin that'll not be an easy option.

You seem young and personally i think dont waste your time on relationships, instead focus on your studies as marriage will come for you later on in life inshallah.

Edited by Hassan H
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2 minutes ago, Hassan H said:

Personally, i believe that if its a relationship with no sex then its fine. I think in this generation its a bit harder to get engaged to someone you barely know and getting to know them during your engagement. I think that a relationship is the best way to get to know your partner. 

For the case of mutah, i've read that the female has to be a non-virgin to do mutah (not 100% sure). Therefore, if shes not a virgin that'll not be an easy option.

You seem young and personally i think dont waste your time on relationships, instead focus on your studies as marriage will come later for you later on in life inshallah.

If she is virgin you need fathers permission for mutah generally speaking. They should seek a mutah if they want to have a non platonic relationship.

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