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In the Name of God بسم الله
Mohammad313Ali

Shirtless selfies

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The reason I asked was because I see many respected brothers who participate in sports such as boxing, weightlifting, swimming, etc wherein their sport usually (especially swimming) is required or better performed without the shirt.

I’ve read on separate thread and also examined a jurisprudential ruling by Sayed Sistani where it is permissible and the reasoning is that the man is usually one who is out laboring and in certain cases under the sun where they may face extreme temperatures therefore we see many instances where such workers would remove the garments that cover their torso and it is obligatory for the sisters to not look at the brothers when they are not wearing shirts or what may otherwise cover the torso area.

I believe the answer I have received from you is due to a cultural impulse in regards to it being of a bad image for a respectable brother to portray now I am not arguing for or against this phenomena however I also did not ask for your opinion, but rather the jurisprudential ruling for or against it which you failed to give me and instead went on a to describe an allegory that one may feel guilty of, after taking it into consideration, I see this as highly problematic for many reasons such moral indignation is to the similitude of that in which we receive in regards to Mutah wherein one may say would say would you give your sister or daughter, these example are completely and utterly irrelevant if something is within the jurisdiction and acceptance of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then I have no issue whatsoever of what anybody thinks or believes in regards to it and if Imam Zaman would look at this supposed profile of mine on social media If it’s permissible to keep shirtless selfies then why would I remove them?

Also we read in the advent of the massacre of Karbala where Imam Hussain an infallible Imam and one of the Ahlul-kisa when seeking to wipe the blood from his holy face lifted his garment in doing so revealing that he did not carry a chest plate or a protection for his torso where the enemies were able to perceive his blessed unguarded body. 

Now every action of our Imams no matter what situation they are in is with purpose and meaning therefore if it was not permissible to show that part of your body then why did Imam Hussain reveal it, as indeed every segment of their holy lives circumambulated around enjoying good and forbidding evil.

 

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20 minutes ago, Guest_313 said:

who is out laboring and in certain cases under the sun where they may face extreme temperatures therefore we see many instances where such workers would remove the garments that cover their torso

I doubt anyone would takes selfies in these circumstances. I have never come across one at least. 

25 minutes ago, Guest_313 said:

boxing, weightlifting, swimming, etc wherein their sport usually (especially swimming)

 It isn't technically possible for a sportsmen to take a selfie while he is swimming, or lifting weights

Brother, you asked about selfies. If this has been about photos in general I might have replied differently. Selfies on social media are something which are almost entirely under your control. When, how, where you take it and if you choose to share it on your social media or not. 

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On 11/12/2019 at 9:07 AM, 3wliya_maryam said:

Lol

I don’t really see what’s funny I asked a question in regards to jurisprudence and if you’re incapable of giving an answer you can just do us all a favor and not say anything. Or is that how it is now when someone genuinely wants to learn and get closer to their religion they need to also taken into consideration the acceptability of the question so they don’t get mocked?

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1 minute ago, starlight said:

I doubt anyone would takes selfies in these circumstances. I have never come across one at least. 

 It isn't technically possible for a sportsmen to take a selfie while he is swimming, or lifting weights

Brother, you asked about selfies. If this has been about photos in general I might have replied differently. Selfies on social media are something which are almost entirely under your control. When, how, where you take it and if you choose to share it on your social media or not. 

It’s not about taking selfies in those circumstances it’s being in the eyes of the general public that’s the correlation I am trying to draw here

also about a sportsman taking a selfie what I mean is for example winning a competition and seeking to post the picture of your victory and sharing it with your friends and family.

also it’s technically under your control to not compete in those sports 

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1 minute ago, Guest_313 said:

also about a sportsman taking a selfie what I mean is for example winning a competition and seeking to post the picture of your victory and sharing it with your friends and family.

I guess this should be okay but I am no scholar. Females too should avoid looking at pictures of namehram men. 

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4 minutes ago, starlight said:

I guess this should be okay but I am no scholar. Females too should avoid looking at pictures of namehram men. 

Then there was no point in you giving your own personal ijtihad, so I hope we can all refrain from doing so and share the opinions of our scholars, because apparently it’s been turned into a mockery.  

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4 minutes ago, Guest_313 said:

Then there was no point in you giving your own personal ijtihad, so I hope we can all refrain from doing so and share the opinions of our scholars, because apparently it’s been turned into a mockery.  

I am not giving my personal ijtihad. What I shared in my first post is Ayatullah Sistani's law!!!

Why don't email your marja instead of wasting everyone's time here and being rude in the process.

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@Guest_313 with respect, please look up the definition of ijtihad.

Nobody has passed a ruling here. However some good questions have been asked by @starlight and they are worth reflecting upon. 

Somehow you interpeted the questions as 'ijtihad' and 'cultural impulse'. You then try to draw an analogy with mut'ah, perhaps forgetting in the process that mut'ah is a mustahab sunnah whereas taking semi-naked pictures of yourself isn't. 

Anyway, here is the link you are probably looking for: Link 

Thanks to brother @Sumerian for sharing it in a previous thread. 

It doesn't cover shirtless selfies, but it does discuss the awrah of the man and woman according to different schools of thought. 

Finally, for those who are interested in reflecting , I wonder why someone would take a selfie at all let alone a semi naked one?

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all

Wallahu a'lam


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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

@Guest_313 with respect, please look up the definition of ijtihad.

Nobody has passed a ruling here. However some good questions have been asked by @starlight and they are worth reflecting upon. 

Somehow you interpeted the questions as 'ijtihad' and 'cultural impulse'. You then try to draw an analogy with mut'ah, perhaps forgetting in the process that mut'ah is a mustahab sunnah whereas taking semi-naked pictures of yourself isn't. 

Anyway, here is the link you are probably looking for: Link 

Thanks to brother @Sumerian for sharing it in a previous thread. 

It doesn't cover shirtless selfies, but it does discuss the awrah of the man and woman according to different schools of thought. 

Finally, for those who are interested in reflecting , I wonder why someone would take a selfie at all let alone a semi naked one?

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all

Wallahu a'lam

 

The analogy I drew was not to compare the two in likelihood, but rather to illustrate it as an evasive why of not answering the question in and of itself and that is the jurisprudential ruling in regards to it.

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

@Guest_313 with respect, please look up the definition of ijtihad.

Nobody has passed a ruling here. However some good questions have been asked by @starlight and they are worth reflecting upon. 

Somehow you interpeted the questions as 'ijtihad' and 'cultural impulse'. You then try to draw an analogy with mut'ah, perhaps forgetting in the process that mut'ah is a mustahab sunnah whereas taking semi-naked pictures of yourself isn't. 

Anyway, here is the link you are probably looking for: Link 

Thanks to brother @Sumerian for sharing it in a previous thread. 

It doesn't cover shirtless selfies, but it does discuss the awrah of the man and woman according to different schools of thought. 

Finally, for those who are interested in reflecting , I wonder why someone would take a selfie at all let alone a semi naked one?

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all

Wallahu a'lam

 

Nonetheless I don’t see why my question has gotten you guys feeling uneasy or offended and the extra remarks that you guys throw in are completely unnecessary.

Finally, for those who are interested in reflecting , I wonder why someone would take a selfie at all let alone a semi naked one?”

brother all I was hoping for was perhaps someone that can link me the ruling of Sayed Sistani, instead of adding their own opinions and two cents.

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I did also look up the meaning of ijtihad

In its literal meaning, the word refers to effort, physical or mental, expended in a particular activity. In its technical sense, ijtihad can be defined as a "process of legal reasoning and hermeneutics through which the jurist-mujtahid derives or rationalizes law on the basis of the Qur'an and the Sunna".

Which I believe the brother did in regards to giving his opinion based on his own reasoning and understanding of the Qur'an and Hadith 

as for “cultural impulse” I meant that there is an accompanying cultural factor that follows in ones perception of the idea of a shirtless man in public. I am not trying to go out without a shirt or take “selfies” but this is a common practice I am seeing within our Shia community with fellow brothers and merely seek to understand. 

As for the inquiry I gave in regards to Imam Hussain in the battlefield revealing his blessed torso I hope to receive an explanation.

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12 hours ago, Guest_313 said:

I don’t really see what’s funny I asked a question in regards to jurisprudence and if you’re incapable of giving an answer you can just do us all a favor and not say anything. Or is that how it is now when someone genuinely wants to learn and get closer to their religion they need to also taken into consideration the acceptability of the question so they don’t get mocked?

U need to chill out all I said is one word u give me a whole lecture

On 11/13/2019 at 1:32 AM, Moalfas said:

 

Some of us like to joke. If u can’t take the heat then go ask ur own marja3

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13 hours ago, Guest_313 said:

Nonetheless I don’t see why my question has gotten you guys feeling uneasy or offended and the extra remarks that you guys throw in are completely unnecessary.

Finally, for those who are interested in reflecting , I wonder why someone would take a selfie at all let alone a semi naked one?”

brother all I was hoping for was perhaps someone that can link me the ruling of Sayed Sistani, instead of adding their own opinions and two cents.

I didn't find it offensive, I think it's a relevant question. However this is a discussion forum. If you only wanted a ruling you could have directly contacted the office of Sayed al Sistani. 

If anything it seems like you took offence to people discussing shirtless selfies. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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13 hours ago, Guest_313 said:

I did also look up the meaning of ijtihad

In its literal meaning, the word refers to effort, physical or mental, expended in a particular activity. In its technical sense, ijtihad can be defined as a "process of legal reasoning and hermeneutics through which the jurist-mujtahid derives or rationalizes law on the basis of the Qur'an and the Sunna".

Which I believe the brother did in regards to giving his opinion based on his own reasoning and understanding of the Qur'an and Hadith 

as for “cultural impulse” I meant that there is an accompanying cultural factor that follows in ones perception of the idea of a shirtless man in public. I am not trying to go out without a shirt or take “selfies” but this is a common practice I am seeing within our Shia community with fellow brothers and merely seek to understand. 

As for the inquiry I gave in regards to Imam Hussain in the battlefield revealing his blessed torso I hope to receive an explanation.

The sister didn't give her own opinion on a ruling, rather she questioned the act itself without ever declaring it to be haram or makrooh. 

Regarding the reference to the Imam (عليه السلام) firstly I am not aware of where you have located this account. Unfortunately people sometimes tell stories about the aimmah (عليه السلام) which cannot be located in recognized sources. However, I also question if such protective armour was worn directly on the bare body or on top of a shirt as is common today. Perhaps the event has been misinterpreted or misnarrated. Finally since this was in the battlefield it is likely that there were no non mahram women within the vicinity.

And God Knows Best

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The awrah for men is not naval to knee, this is usually more of a Sunni fatwa. Please stop spreading fatwas based on opinion or what is popularly said, because alot of times that can be wrong. It is best you actually read the Fiqh books befote you say anything.

Technically, the only obligation a man has is to cover his privates. It is actually incumbent on the women to not look at his chest and similar body parts, not that he is obligated to cover them.

Again, I am mentioning a technicality, not what is ethical. I would advise brothers to cover themselves properly because it can be very disrespectful to women if men are shirtless among them.

But in terms of jurisprudential opinion, here:

Quote

The Imamis differentiate between the parts of other person body which can be looked at and those parts of one’s own body which ought to be covered. They observe:

It is wajib for a male to cover only his rear and private parts, though it is wajib for women who are not his maharim to abstain from looking at any part of his body except his head and hands (up to the wrist).

To summarize the Imami opinion, it is permissible for a male to view the body of other men and his female maharim except the rear and private parts provided no sensual motive is involved. Similarly, a woman can view the body of other woman and her male maharim excepting the rear and private parts provided no sensual motive is involved.

https://www.al-Islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/rules-modesty-according-five-Islamic-schools-law

Sayyed Al-Sistani says the same thing here, in Minhaj Al-Saliheen:

مسألة 19: لا يجب على الرجل التستّر من الأجنبيّة وإن كان لا يجوز لها - على الأحوط لزوماً - النظر إلى غير ما جرت السيرة على عدم الالتزام بستره من بدنه كما تقدّم.

 https://www.Sistani.org/Arabic/book/16/859/

Edited by Sumerian

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20 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Please stop spreading fatwas based on opinion or what is popularly said, because alot of times that can be wrong. It is best you actually read the Fiqh books befote you say anything.

Ruling 775. While performing prayers, a man must cover his private parts even if no one sees him; and it is better that he covers his body from the navel to the knees

https://www.Sistani.org/english/book/48/2209/

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30 minutes ago, starlight said:

Ruling 775. While performing prayers, a man must cover his private parts even if no one sees him; and it is better that he covers his body from the navel to the knees

https://www.Sistani.org/english/book/48/2209/

1) Yes, he must cover his privates, and it is better that he cover from the navel to the knees.

2) This is in relation to sitr during salat, not casual sitr, which is what the above fatwa pertains to. So no qiyas please, and even then it didn't help your case.

I will translate the fatwa from Minhaj:

مسألة 19: لا يجب على الرجل التستّر من الأجنبيّة وإن كان لا يجوز لها - على الأحوط لزوماً - النظر إلى غير ما جرت السيرة على عدم الالتزام بستره من بدنه كما تقدّم.

It is not wajib for the man to cover from the stranger woman, even though it is not permissible for her - based on obligatory precaution, to look at what is normally covered as has been stated before.

__

Let us not make up fatwas or try to make analogies, thank you.

To the O.P, as far as shirtless selfies go, I am not sure, I recommend you contact Sistani. This may be a specific issue that falls into other categories.

Edited by Sumerian

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@Guest_313

Your original post as well as the title was very general and vague to say the least. Had you posted your subsequent article as the original post explaining how you're referring to sports etc you would probably have received more specific answers. 

No one 'mocked' you. Perhaps, instead of taking responses to such an open ended question so personally, be a bit more specific. 

As for the 'pathetic meme' in an 'Islamic discussion', I will seek repentance. lol 

e5d7c724-a270-40d7-8994-9fba42240b63.jpg

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On 11/17/2019 at 7:53 PM, Guest_313 said:

Are we having an Islamic discussion or sharing pathetic memes here?

You are on the wrong website if you are looking for religious help. This is more of meme website, sort of filled with different cults and lurkers to gain some knowledge about first world Muslim problems.

Back to the topic, do you want to put a shirtless picture on display?

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1 hour ago, حسين said:

You are on the wrong website if you are looking for religious help. This is more of meme website, sort of filled with different cults and lurkers to gain some knowledge about first world Muslim problems.

Back to the topic, do you want to put a shirtless picture on display?

The inquiry really isn’t about me personally I will most likely not post a shirtless selfie of my self in my lifetime there are far greater and more beneficial things to worry about posting, however I see brothers do such and have also been asked if it is permissible or not to do so and the reasons why.

therefore I came here on this website to ask my question and also provide any of my rational concerns, If I wanted a black and white answer I would go to a website of jurisprudence, but I am also seeking to have a back and forth conversation that can aid in solidifying the rationality of the ruling and gaining a sound understanding in being able to explain it to myself and to whomever may inquire, such as my future son, friend, or relative. 

To aid me in enjoining good and forbidding evil rationally.

1 hour ago, حسين said:

This is more of meme website, sort of filled with different cults and lurkers to gain some knowledge about first world Muslim problems.

Well I learned so much from this meme website, and by the power invested in me as OP I seek to steer this thread into a more academic Islamic discussion, I don’t know why you’ve reduced this honorable endeavor of a website to such measures.

 

1 hour ago, حسين said:

Back to the topic, do you want to put a shirtless picture on display?

Why is this even a question lol

Edited by Guest_313

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On 11/17/2019 at 3:44 PM, Mahdavist said:

Finally, for those who are interested in reflecting , I wonder why someone would take a selfie at all let alone a semi naked one?

Here are some godly reasons I could think of:

  • Maybe to set it as a display picture for their social media profiles so people are able to identify them, which can help them potentially create and improve friendships with fellow mo'mins for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).
  • Another reason may be to just express themselves to the world for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...If one is a righteous person on the path of God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and other human beings get to know of this person, then these other human beings may establish a connection and get closer to this person, and thus closer to the path of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).
  • Also, in today's society, setting a good display picture for yourself on your social media accounts can makes one look like an impressive person, depending on the picture. As followers of the religion of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we want to appear as impressive people in society.
  • Another reason might be to simply share these photos with family and close friends, for the purpose of statying in touch and being informed of each others states/conditions in life. 

Now, what are your thoughts on taking selfies? 

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@Mahdavist There are a lot of reasons why someone would take a selfie. @AStruggler mentioned some great points. 

I see a lot of respectful scholars on instagram even post selfies and by doing so you add your own personality. Your social media account looks more professional and legit. It's also a nice way to tell a story. Some people can put up stock photos whereas other people choose to put up their own personal photos (and selfies is a type of personal photo). I'm not sure if you mean 'selfies' the ones you take from the front camera of your smart phone? Or just any picture of yourself?

 

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2 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Here are some godly reasons I could think of:

  • Maybe to set it as a display picture for their social media profiles so people are able to identify them, which can help them potentially create and improve friendships with fellow mo'mins for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).
  • Another reason may be to just express themselves to the world for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...If one is a righteous person on the path of God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and other human beings get to know of this person, then these other human beings may establish a connection and get closer to this person, and thus closer to the path of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).
  • Also, in today's society, setting a good display picture for yourself on your social media accounts can makes one look like an impressive person, depending on the picture. As followers of the religion of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we want to appear as impressive people in society.
  • Another reason might be to simply share these photos with family and close friends, for the purpose of statying in touch and being informed of each others states/conditions in life. 

Now, what are your thoughts on taking selfies? 

Self centered and narcissistic

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