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In the Name of God بسم الله
Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

In depth Analysis of Hadith e Thaqalyn by Salafis

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As salam o aliakum .

They on their website said, hadith comming through 30 chains, doesn't include addition of "dollowing ahlebait (عليه السلام)"  thus in few riwayahs its odd and such riwayahs are daef.

I will present their 30 chains!

 

(Chain #1) Zuhayr bin Harb and Shuja ibn Makhlad (wording is Zuhayr’s) — Ibn `Aliyyah (Isma`eel bin Ibrahim) — Abu Hayyan — Yazid bin Hayyan  — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sahih Muslim, vol 6, page 267  268 , #6225(2408)].

(Chain #2) Muhammad bin Bakkar bin al-Rayyan — Hassan bin Ibraheem — Sa`eed bin Masrouq — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sahih Muslim, vol 6, page 268, #6226(2408)].

(Chain #3) (Abu Bakr bin abi Shaybah — Muhammad bin Fudayl) & (Ishaq bin Ibrahim — Jareer) Both From — Abu Hayyan — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sahih Muslim, vol 6, page 268  269 , #6227(2408)]

(Chain #4) Muhammad bin Bakkar bin al-Rayyan — Hassan (Bin Ibrahim) — Sa`eed ibn Masrouq — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sahih Muslim, vol 6, page 269, #6228(2408)].

(Chain #5) Afaan  — Hassaan bin Ibrahim — Sa’eed bin Masrooq — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Musannaf fi al-Ahadeeth wa al-Athar, by Ibn Abi Shaybah, vol 6, page 133, #30078].

(Chain #6) Muhammad bin Fudayl — Abu Hayyan — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Musnad ibn Abi Shaybah, vol 1, page 351  352, #514].

(Chain #7) Abd Allah ibn Ahmad — (his father) Ahmad ibn Hambal — Isma`il ibn Ibrahim — from Abu Hayyan al-Tamimi — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Musnad Ahmad, vol 32, page 10  11 , #19265].

(Chain #8) Ja`far ibn `Awn — Abu Hayyan al-Taymi — Yazid ibn Hayyan —  Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sunan a-Darami, vol 4, page 2090  2091 , #3359, Chapter 23: Fa’dhail al-Qur'an]

(Chain #9) Muhammad bin `Abdullah al-Hafiz — Abu al-Fadl al-Hasa n bin Ya`qoub — Muhammad bin `Abdul-Wahhab al-Farra’ — Ja`far bin `Awn — Abu Hayyan Yahya bin Sa`eed — his uncle Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sunan al-Kubra by al-Bayhaqi, vol 2, page 212, #2857].

(Chain #10) Abu Zakariya Yahya bin Ibrahim — Abu `Abdullah Mu hammad bin Ya`qoub — Muhammad bin `Abdul-Wahhab — Ja`far bin `Awn — Abu Hayyan — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Sunan al-Kubra by al-Bayhaqi, vol 7, page 48, #13238].

(Chain #11) Abu Muhammad Janah bin Nadheer bin Janah — Abu Ja`far Muhammad bin `Ali al-Shaybani — Ibrahim bin Ishaq al-Zuhri — Ja`far bin `Awn & Ya`la bin `Ubayd — Abu Hayyan al-Taymi — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sunan al-Kubra by al-Bayhaqi, vol 10, page 194, #20335].

(Chain #12) Ja`far bin `Awn — Abu Hayyan al-Taymi — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam.[Muntakhab min Musnad Abd bin Hameed, page 114, #265].

(Chain #13) Zakariya bin Yahya — Ishaq — Jareer — abi Hayyan al-Taymi(Yahya bin Sa`eed bin Hayyan) — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Sunan al-Kubra by al-Nasai, vol 7, page 319  320 , #8119].

(Chain #14) Yusuf bin Musa — Jareer — Abu Hayyan — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Musnad al-Bazzar, vol 10, page 240, #4336].

(Chain #15) (Abu Bakr — Muhammad bin Fudayl — Abu Hayyan) & (Husayn bin Hasan — Abu Jawwab — `Ammar bin Ruzayq — A`mash) — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam.[al-Sunnah of Ibn Abi Asim, vol 2, page 643, #1550, #1551, #1552].

(Chain #16) Yusuf bin Musa — Jareer & Muhammad bin Fudayl — Abu Hayyan al-Taymi — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Sahih ibn Khuzaymah, vol 4, page 62  63 , #2357].

(Chain #17) (Muhammad bin `Abdullah al-Hadrami — ibn abi Shaybah) & (Abu Husayn al-Qadi — Yahya al-Hamani) — Both From — Muhammad bin Fudayl {ALSO} al-Husayn bin Ishaq al-Tustari — `Uthman bin abi Shaybah — Isma`eel bin Ibraheem ALL FROM Abu Hayyan — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 5, page 183, #5028183, #5028].

(Chain #18) Muhammad bin Hayyan — Kathir bin Yahya — Hayyan bin Ibrahim — Sa`eed bin Masrouq OR Suffiyan al-Thawri — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 5, page 182, #5026]. Hayyan is a mistake and he is Hassan bin Ibrahim.

(Chain #19) Abu Talib Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn `Uthman Abu al-Husayn Muhammad ibn al-Muzaffar ibn Musa ibn `Isa al-Hafiz — Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Baghandi — Suwayd — `Ali ibn Mushir — Abu Hayyan al-Taymi — Yazid ibn Hayyan —  Zayd ibn Arqam. [al-Manaqib Ameer Al-Momineen Ali ibn Abi Talib, page 304  305 ,#284].

(Chain #20) Ubaydullah bin `Uthman bin`Ali — `Uthman bin Ja`far — Yusuf bin Musa — Jareer & Ibn Fudayl — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd ibn Arqam. [Sharh Usool I’tiqaad Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah, vol 1, page 78  79 , #88].

(Chain #21) Ibn Abi Dawud — Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Numayr al-Hamdani — Muhammad bin Fudayl bin Ghazwan — Abu Hayyan Yahya bin Sa’eed bin Hayyan al-Tamimi — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Sharh Mushkil al-Athaar, vol 9, page 89, #3464]

(Chain #22) Abu Bakr bin abi Shaybah & Ali bin al-Mundhir  — ibn Fudayl — Abu Hayyan — Yazid bin Hayyan — Zayd bin Arqam. [Ma’rifah wa al-Tarikh, vol 1, page 536].

(Chain #23) Muhammad ibn `Ali al-Shaybani — Ahmad ibn Hazim al-Ghifara — Abu Nu`aym —Kamil Abu al-`Ala’ — Habib ibn Abi Thabit — Yahya ibn Ja`dah —  Zayd ibn Arqam. [Mustadrak al Hakim, vol 3, page 613, #6272]. Narrator Habib ibn Abi Thabit is Mudallis.

(Chain #24) Muhammad bin `Abdullah al-Hadrami — Ja`far bin Humayd — `Abdullah bin Bukayr — Hakeem bin Jubayr — Abi al-Tufayl — Zayd bin Arqam. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 3, page 63  64, #2681] Narrator Hakeem bin Jubayr is Matrouk.

(Chain #25) (Muhammad bin `Abdullah al – Hadrami — Ja`far bin Humayd) & (Muhammad bin `Uthman bin abi Shaybah — al-Nadir bin Sa`eed Abu Suhayb) — Both From — `Abdullah bin Bukayr — Hakeem bin Jubayr — Abi al – Tufayl — Zayd bin Arqam. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 5, page 166  167, #4971] Narrator Hakeem bin Jubayr is Matrouk.

(Chain #26) (Muhammad bin al-Fadl al-Saqti — Sa`eed bin Sulayman) & (Muhammad bin `Abdullah al-Hadrami & Zakariya bin Yahya al-Saji) — Both from — Nasr bin `Abdul-Rahman al-Washa’ — Zayd bin al-Hasan al-Anmati — Ma`rouf bin Khurboudh — Abi al-Tufayl — Hudhayfah bin Usayd al-Ghafar. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 3, page 65, #2683] Narrator Zayd bin al-Hasan is Munkar al-Hadith.

(Chain #27) (Muhammad bin `Abdullah al-Hadrami &  Zakariya bin Yahya al-Saji —  Nasr bin `Abdul-Rahman al-Washa’) & (Ahmad bin al-Qasim bin Musawir al-Jawhari — Sa’eed bin Sulayman al-Wasiti)  — Both from — Zayd bin al-Hasan al-Anmati — Ma`rouf bin Khurboudh — Abi al-Tufayl — Hudhayfah bin Usayd al-Ghafar. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 3, page 200  201, #3052] Narrator Zayd bin al-Hasan is Munkar al-Hadith.

(Chain #28) Muhammad bin Ahmad bin Hamdan — al-Hasan bin Suffiyan — Nasr bin `Abdul-Rahman al-Washa`— Zayd bin al-Hasan al-Anmati — Ma`rouf bin Khurboudh — Abu al-Tufayl — Hudhayfah bin Usayd. [Hilyat al-Awliya, vol 1, page 355]. Narrator Zayd bin al-Hasan is Munkar al-Hadith.

(Chain #29) Abu Ya’la Ali ibn Abi Abd Allah ibn al-Allaf al-Bazzar — Abd al-Salam ibn `Abd al-Malik ibn Habib al-Bazzar — `Abd Allah Muhammad ibn `Uthman — Muhammad ibn Bakr ibn `Abd al-Razzaq — Abu Hatim Mughirah ibn Muhammad ibn al-Muhallabi — Muslim ibn Ibrahim — Nuh ibn Qays al-Judhami — al-Walid bin Salih — the WIFE of Zayd ibn Arqam. [al-Manaqib Ameer Al-Momineen Ali ibn Abi Talib, page 44  45  46, #23]. Narrator al-Walid bin Salih is Majhool(anonymous) and has tawtheeq from Ibn Hibban alone[Thiqaat by ibn Hibban, vol 7, page 551, #11424].

(Chain #30) Abdul-Rahman bin `Umar bin Ahmad — al-Husayn bin Isma`eel — Abu Hisham al-Rifa`ee — Hafs — Mujalid — al-Sha`bi — Jabir. [Sharh Usool I’tiqaad Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah, vol 1, page 81, #95]. Narrator Mujalid is weak.

What I found interesting, is that
from Chain#1 to Chain#22

Yazid Bin Hayyan - From Zaid Bin Arqam

This is Root of this hadith. Everyone who narrated hadith from Chain#1 to Chain#22 narrated through path of Yazid Bin Hayyan only!

Chain#23 Habib Bin thabit is Mudailis and Probably he never heard from Yahya ibn Ja`dah thus weak


Chain#24-25 Hakeem Bin Jubayr is Matrook Al Hadith According to them.

Chain#26-28 is Munkar According to them

Chain#29 is Majhool according to them
Chain#30 is weak According to them


While We have Following chains from their books:

1.


حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ، - كُوفِيٌّ - حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ فُضَيْلٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ، وَالأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ، عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالاَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ مَا إِنْ تَمَسَّكْتُمْ بِهِ لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدِي أَحَدُهُمَا أَعْظَمُ مِنَ الآخَرِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَبْلٌ مَمْدُودٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى الأَرْضِ وَعِتْرَتِي أَهْلُ بَيْتِي وَلَنْ يَتَفَرَّقَا حَتَّى يَرِدَا عَلَىَّ الْحَوْضَ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ‏"
 

Habib Bin Abi thabit - From Zaid Bin Arqam narrated this turq. (Authenticated by Sheikh Zubair Ali Zai and Sheikh Al-Bani Scans Attached)




74230433_1298347107003639_28518411390345 75242203_1298347210336962_75118497357249


75262235_1298347357003614_77114279882727 73475289_1298347437003606_91135592450385


2.
حدثنا أبو بكر محمد بن الحسين بن مصلح الفقيه بالري، حدثنا محمد بن أيوب، حدثنا يحيى بن المغيرة السعدي، حدثنا جرير بن عبد الحميد، عن الحسن بن عبد الله النخعي، عن مسلم بن صبيح، عن زيد بن أرقم -رضي الله تعالى عنه- قال: قال رسول الله -صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم-: (إني تارك فيكم الثقلين كتاب الله وأهل بيتي، وإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض).

Muslim Bin Sabih - From Zaid Bin Arqam Narrated this turq. (authenticated by Dhabi in talkhhis and Hakim in Mustadrak)

 

3.

From Many chains comming from this way 
عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ مَا إِنْ تَمَسَّكْتُمْ بِهِ لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدِي أَحَدُهُمَا أَعْظَمُ مِنَ الآخَرِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَبْلٌ مَمْدُودٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى الأَرْضِ وَعِتْرَتِي أَهْلُ بَيْتِي وَلَنْ يَتَفَرَّقَا حَتَّى يَرِدَا عَلَىَّ الْحَوْضَ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا

Attiyah Al Awfi - From Abu Said Al Khudri (رضي الله عنه)

Attiyah Al Awifi known for evil tadlees and narrating from Al Kalbi comes from narration of Al Al Kalbi himself who said Atiyah gave me nick Abu Saed and said that I will say narrated to me Abu Saed.
This allegation is basically comming from well known forger and liar Al- Kalbi thus rejected. since we can’t use statment of liar to do weaken a narrator.
Also said saduq by Ibn Hajjar, he also called him mudallis but accusation of tadlees as mentioned above holds no basis.

Allegation of Evil tadlees is gone and hence when there is no jarah mufassar, tawtheeq takes over thus riwayah is Hasan.

 

I wonder what type of in-depth analysis was that.

 

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34 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:


I will present their 30 chains!

You have given the chains but where is the hadith narrated through these?

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13 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I wonder what type of in-depth analysis was that

Brother Shah, forget  about every peace of propaganda that is tried to reject or lessen the importance of hadith by hypocrisy.

I have shown you the analysis in this regard by logical manner for verifying the hadith in the light of the verses of Qur'an and other authentic hadith in my other thread. The link is given below:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064449-where-in-Qur'an-is-written-follow-ahle-bait-عليه-السلام/?do=findComment&comment=3250836

Let the others spend their time for trying to reject the authentic hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and still making claim of following the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) . Its a peak of hypocrisy I consider.

Edited by Muslim2010

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2 minutes ago, starlight said:

You have given the chains but where is the hadith narrated through these?

I meant to say I will list down 30 chains of narrations given by that site.
And through these chains, comes the turq of Hadith e Thaqalyn narrated in Sahih Muslim.

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6 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Brother Shah, forget  about every peace of propaganda that is tried to reject or lessen the importance of hadith by hypocrisy.

I have shown you the analysis in this regard by logical manner for verifying the hadith in the light of the verses of Qur'an and other authentic hadith in my other thread. The link is given below:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064449-where-in-Qur'an-is-written-follow-ahle-bait-عليه-السلام/?do=findComment&comment=3250836

Let the others spend their time in for trying to reject the authentic hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and still making claim of following the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) . Its a peak of hypocrisy I consider.

Muslim brother I agree. There hypocrisy is crystal clear. But the baseless points raised by them might create confusion among the people, so thats why I make threads here so people here on Shia-chat can come and refute them like you people are doing. May Allah Bless you all. I have learned alot from you people here.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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13 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Muslim brother I agree. There hypocrisy is crystal clear. But the baseless points raised by them might create confusion among the people, so thats why I make threads here so people here on Shia-chat can come and refute them like you people are doing. May Allah Bless you all. I have learned alot from you people here.

Thanks for your compliments brother. We always do it for love of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and their pure family. ie Ahl alabayat (عليه السلام).

Listen a nice manqabat brother

:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GheVJA2ink8

 

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They wanted to say that Following ahlebait is not mentioned in authentic hadith e thaqalyn which is comming through thirty chains as follows:
@starlight here is that turq of Thaqalayn:

 

Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Hussain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Hussain said to him:

Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Hussain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Hussain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

and This one:

Yazid b. Hayyan reported:

We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
 
They want to say that addition of "Follow them so that you will never go astray" is shazz thus weak and un acceptable.

While we see that 22 out of 30 chains converge at single person who is Yazid Bin Hayyan.
Thus there is no point in calling them 22 different chains. They are actually from Single Path of Yazid bin Hayyan.

2. When we say that Zaid Bin Arqam in above hadith said that his memory has become weak, salafis replied that zaid Bin Arqam also said that hold to what I narrate to you and don’t comple me to narrate what I don't.

Thus they say he was more carefull in narrating the hadith this its authentic.
I say, clearly he was one of great sahabis, he tried to carefully narrate the hadith indeed but other hadiths that has been narrated by him which never had such wordings implying that were narrated earlier and prior to his very old age.
Insipte of care, other hadiths are clearly evident and show us that he has narrated hadith in a different way than before due to his weak memory which he admitted before narrating the hadith.

Thus other versions of Thaqalayn are more authentic than this one .

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

(Chain #26) (Muhammad bin al-Fadl al-Saqti — Sa`eed bin Sulayman) & (Muhammad bin `Abdullah al-Hadrami & Zakariya bin Yahya al-Saji) — Both from — Nasr bin `Abdul-Rahman al-Washa’ — Zayd bin al-Hasan al-Anmati — Ma`rouf bin Khurboudh — Abi al-Tufayl — Hudhayfah bin Usayd al-Ghafar. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 3, page 65, #2683] Narrator Zayd bin al-Hasan is Munkar al-Hadith.

(Chain #27) (Muhammad bin `Abdullah al-Hadrami &  Zakariya bin Yahya al-Saji —  Nasr bin `Abdul-Rahman al-Washa’) & (Ahmad bin al-Qasim bin Musawir al-Jawhari — Sa’eed bin Sulayman al-Wasiti)  — Both from — Zayd bin al-Hasan al-Anmati — Ma`rouf bin Khurboudh — Abi al-Tufayl — Hudhayfah bin Usayd al-Ghafar. [Mu’jam al-Tabrani al-Kabeer, vol 3, page 200  201, #3052] Narrator Zayd bin al-Hasan is Munkar al-Hadith.

(Chain #28) Muhammad bin Ahmad bin Hamdan — al-Hasan bin Suffiyan — Nasr bin `Abdul-Rahman al-Washa`— Zayd bin al-Hasan al-Anmati — Ma`rouf bin Khurboudh — Abu al-Tufayl — Hudhayfah bin Usayd. [Hilyat al-Awliya, vol 1, page 355]. Narrator Zayd bin al-Hasan is Munkar al-Hadith.

This Hadith has similar wordings as follows 

I am leaving Among you two weighty things one of them is greater than the other,The book of Allah which is the rope of Allah, if you hold fast to it you will never go astray and my Itrat Ahlebait They will not seperate from each other till the meet me at Hawd.

 

Those Salafis called this hadith Munkir due to Zaid bin Al Hassan.
Can any salafi show me the Sahih Hadith of which this hadith is munkir?
There must be a sahih hadith right? 180 degree to above hadith?
I can't believe how one can stoop so low just to deny merits of Ahlebait (عليه السلام)

I ask whats the point of saying Ahlebait and Book of Allah will not seperate from each other?
And Prophet left two things? Qur'an and Ahlebait? he left Qur'an for what?
Guidance?  yes.
Do we have any choice in following Qur'an or Bible? No.

Clearly Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left Book of Allah for Muslims to follow it, and then mentioned Ahlebait (عليه السلام) along side this Book of Allah.
The two weighty things in the hadith are being left by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) since he said prior to this sermon that he is going to depart from this
world soon, therfore he left us with two things Book of Allah and Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and since Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the guide, it is clear cut that in his place, he left guides
for the people. 
Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and book of Allah will never seperate from each other confirms again that Ahlebait will never seperate from Qur'an in any manner.
Thus this again is daleel of ismat of Ahlebait (عليه السلام). Since Qur'an can never be doubted, Qur'an can never have contradictions, obedience to Qur'an
is un conditional. Thus people who according to Word of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will never seperate from Qur'an, how can they not be free of contradictions?
How can obedience to them be conditional? 

Also we read in above turq of Thaqalayn, 

48 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.


What we get from this hadith is that its prime duty of All Muslims to obey the AhleBait (عليه السلام).

This doesn't say that do not follow ahlebait (عليه السلام) thus none of versions of thaqalayn contradict with each other.



 

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Guest Thaqalayn

It's typical of these Salafi-propaganda websites to present a very niche corner of the web view and then claim it is representative over all of Sunnis. 

Here's a reply:https://shiaresponses.wordpress.com/hadith-al-thaqalayn-articles/

https://shiaresponses.wordpress.com/2019/07/01/hadith-al-thaqalayn-2/

and reliable versions which explicitly state following the Ahlul Bayt: https://shiaresponses.wordpress.com/2019/06/29/hadith-al-thaqalayn/

 

I've presented these to the authors of those articles, and they are completely unable to give any proper reply. 

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21 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

They wanted to say that Following ahlebait is not mentioned in authentic hadith e thaqalyn which is comming through thirty chains as follows:
@starlight here is that turq of Thaqalayn:

Brother, you need to mention the precise source of both hadiths.

Just producing the hadiths is not enough.

Please give precise reference, thanks

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On 11/11/2019 at 2:40 PM, baqar said:

Brother, you need to mention the precise source of both hadiths.

Just producing the hadiths is not enough.

Please give precise reference, thanks

Jami Tirmidhi

And hadith with authentication of 

1. Shiekh Al Bani

2. Sheikh Zubair Ali Zai

Is more than enough to be precise.

I know you would say Ali bin Munzir and Muhammad bin Fuzail are Shias so not acceptable riwayah.

I have list prepared up of hadiths from both of them authenticated not as Hassan, but SAHIH from these two people.

Tawtheeq for both Ali bin Muzir and Muhammad bin fuzail is there

If you say they are from fiqh of innovators thus  hadiht is rejected, then is that credibility of your esteemed ilm ur rijal?

Thiqa narrators in your ilm ur rijal are innovators? Then you should give up on your madhab then. Or either issue a fatwa on Bukhari who also took hadiths from Shia narrators who were reliable according to him.

All alims grade these hadiths as sahih but salafis just have to make something up against ahle bait (عليه السلام)

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3 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I know you would say Ali bin Munzir and Muhammad bin Fuzail are Shias so not acceptable riwayah.

Why would I say that?

I was just asking for the precise references.

An example of an acceptable reference is as follows.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume n1 Book n2 Hadith Number n3.

n1, n2, n3 are the references for the particular hadith being quoted and discussed.

This was just an example.

That is all.

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57 minutes ago, baqar said:

Why would I say that?

I was just asking for the precise references.

An example of an acceptable reference is as follows.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume n1 Book n2 Hadith Number n3.

n1, n2, n3 are the references for the particular hadith being quoted and discussed.

This was just an example.

That is all.

lolzzz

Its Jami Al Tirimdhi

Chapter of Manaqib (Last one)

Hadith 3788

I attached two scans of pdf books above.

On 11/10/2019 at 3:48 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Scans Attached)




74230433_1298347107003639_28518411390345 75242203_1298347210336962_75118497357249


75262235_1298347357003614_77114279882727 73475289_1298347437003606_91135592450385


2.
حدثنا أبو بكر محمد بن الحسين بن

Here see

One with Hukam of Sheikh Zubair Ali Zai and one with Sheikh Albani

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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58 minutes ago, baqar said:

Why would I say that?

I was just asking for the precise references.

An example of an acceptable reference is as follows.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume n1 Book n2 Hadith Number n3.

n1, n2, n3 are the references for the particular hadith being quoted and discussed.

This was just an example.

That is all.

I used to do this but in Pakistan

Real book and page number works better lol

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The Above hadith is comming in only two ways. Those salafis have mentioned 30 chains to decieve people that there are some shadd riwayahs that Shia present
thus rejected them altogether but one can clearly see that above narration is comming through 2 authentic ways:

1. Yazid Bin Hayyan - Zaid Bin Arqam 
2. Abu Tufail - Hudyfah  (Though they called Zaid Bin Al-Hassan Munkir Al Hadith)

When we present this hadith from Jami-Al Tirimdhi 3786:

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said on Ara'fah, I am leaving amoung you two things, if you hold fast to them, you will never go astray, Book of Allah and Ahlebait (عليه السلام).
they reject this hadith calling Zaid Bin Al Hassan Munkir al Hadith.

From chain 26-28 the hadith reported through Zaid Bin Al Hassan - Abu Tufail - Hudayfah 
Is there favourite version which doesn't have command to follow Ahlebait (عليه السلام) according to them.
Point is this hadith has been reported by zaid Bin Hassan which is in accordance with Sahih Hadiths above and also doesn't have words follow ahlebait.
This proves that Zaid-Bin-Hassan was honest in his transmission of Hadith of Thaqalayn since he narrated what he heard as it is.
Similarly Salafi can't bring one single report a any companion which says Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't say hadith of Thaqalyn on Arafa'h
Such a Sahih riwayah, that totally opposes above riwayat is needed to classify above hadith of Zaid Bin Hassan as munkir.

Since Zaid Bin Hassan also has tawtheeq thus it would make riwayah Hassan since it opposes no Riwayah rather is inline with
Authentic versions of Thaqalyn.
Therefore there is not point in denying above riwayah that Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that on the day of Araf'ah
But they can't accept it since it breaks there main argument.

Its famous among all people that Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left two weighty things Qur'an and Ahlebait (عليه السلام)
While these salafis continued to present following hadith without saying that it is shadd or has omissions or has defects in matan:

"I am leaving amoung you Book of Allah, if you hold fast to it you will never go Astray"

The omision of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) from hadith wouldn't make it defective, wouldnt make matn defective, wouldn't make it odd
Rather sahih because it fits there beliefs.

But when riwayah comes that goes against them, it has hidden defects, shadd additions, Shia narrators innovators (though they have tawtheeq from Sunni rijal)

People with a fair mind can see their hate towards Ahlebait (عليه السلام)

Hub e Ali Ibadah
Bughz e Ali lanat Ullah






 

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On 11/10/2019 at 9:48 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

They on their website said, hadith coming through 30 chains, doesn't include addition of "following ahlebait (عليه السلام)"  thus in few riwayahs its odd and such riwayahs are daef. 

They are right.

Their version of Hadith Saqlain is different from ours. It does not include the "following" part.

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On 11/10/2019 at 12:17 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

They wanted to say that Following ahlebait is not mentioned in authentic hadith e thaqalyn which is comming through thirty chains as follows:
 

and This one:

Yazid b. Hayyan reported:

We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
 
They want to say that addition of "Follow them so that you will never go astray" is shazz thus weak and un acceptable.
 

Forgetting the them trying to mislead the people bit by the shazz bit, it makes no sense.

Why would it be the hadith of two weighty things if we were to sdhere to only one

and

Why would they need such a vast explanation of the  AhleBait(عليه السلام) if they were not mentioned above as one of the two weights. 

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29 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Why would it be the hadith of two weighty things if we were to adhere to only one

Exactly.

That is the point.

According to them, the Ahlul Bayt are one of the two weighty things but NOT to be followed.

31 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Why would they need such a vast explanation of the  AhleBait(عليه السلام) if they were not mentioned above as one of the two weights. 

Please note that the the Ahle Bait in this hadith are defined by the narrator.

The conversation (in bold letters) is between people and the narrator, not the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the narrator..

Technically therefore, the definition of the Ahle Bait (pbut) is not really part of the hadith, because it does not come from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

It is merely the opinion of the narrator.

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8 hours ago, baqar said:

Exactly.

That is the point.

According to them, the Ahlul Bayt are one of the two weighty things but NOT to be followed.

Please note that the the Ahle Bait in this hadith are defined by the narrator.

The conversation (in bold letters) is between people and the narrator, not the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the narrator..

Technically therefore, the definition of the Ahle Bait (pbut) is not really part of the hadith, because it does not come from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

It is merely the opinion of the narrator.

You get the point though brother

Why would they even ask the narrator for explanations if it(Ahlebait(عليه السلام) ) were not mentioned earlier hence shows someone has dandified/eaten like a goat bits from the hadith .

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On 12/4/2019 at 9:14 AM, baqar said:

They are right.

Their version of Hadith Saqlain is different from ours. It does not include the "following" part.

Actually they are wrong including you.

Above hadiths are from Books of Ahl Sunnah.

And Thiqa and seduq narrator is not an innovator whether Shia or Sunni.

Bukhari quoted in is sahih from Shias then call those riwayahs weak as well.

They like to play with narrators and break as many Usool as they want based upon whom their daddies wrote sahih books

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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Actually they are wrong including you.

My friend, you have quoted me out of context.

I was responding to the statement "They on their website said..............................................."

 So when I said "they are right", I meant that they are right that on their website, they said............................"

And I explained that in the second line.

 I was saying that they are right to say that their hadith does not include "following the Ahle Bait."

It just requires them to take care of them and look after them, but not to follow them. 

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17 hours ago, haideriam said:

Why would they even ask the narrator for explanations if it(Ahlebait(عليه السلام) ) were not mentioned earlier hence shows someone has dandified/eaten like a goat bits from the hadith .

Yes brother, it is obvious that the Prophet's words have been manipulated.

Because their hadith says that the Ahle Bait are one of two weighty things but leaves a gap there.

It does not say what makes them weighty.

Relationship to the Prophet cannot make them weighty because if that was the case, Prophet's Nooh's son would have been regarded as weighty.

Their hadith is therefore missing the reason why they should be seen as weighty.

On the other hand, our hadith says that they are to be followed.

So if they are to be followed, it is obvious that they had merit that made them worthy of being followed.

And that was the whole point of this hadith - to state their merit and then to enjoin Muslims to follow them because of their merit.

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@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi what about Qur'an, "O Ahlebait, Allah, intends to purify you a thorough purification". And about Quotes of Hazrat Abu Baker, Hazrat Umer about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that he is most knowledgeable than them and  about testifications of later scholars in the honor of 12 Imams. Even if they disagree of Hadith-e-Saqlain which you have provided and I'm sure they know your psychology that you won't spend time in verifying these which will eventually be proved wrong if you try, the evidences are sufficient to prove that Ahlebait are the only one who deserve to be followed.

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On 12/6/2019 at 6:47 PM, Flying_Eagle said:

@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi what about Qur'an, "O Ahlebait, Allah, intends to purify you a thorough purification". And about Quotes of Hazrat Abu Baker, Hazrat Umer about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that he is most knowledgeable than them and  about testifications of later scholars in the honor of 12 Imams. Even if they disagree of Hadith-e-Saqlain which you have provided and I'm sure they know your psychology that you won't spend time in verifying these which will eventually be proved wrong if you try, the evidences are sufficient to prove that Ahlebait are the only one who deserve to be followed.

At least they accept the portion:

Qur'an and Ahlebait will not seperate from each other and will meet me at Hawd.

Alot can be proven only from these words of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Ismat of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) is clear from above hadith.

If we don't have choice to follow between Qur'an and bible, then we don't have either between Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and others.

Also the phrase if you follow them you will not be misguided is genuine phrase which was said by Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) since it appeared in many hadiths also.

Now omission of this phrase was necessary from the side of ahle sunnah in order to defend themselves. Else they wouldn't be able to justify their claims.

They said:

Ali Bin Munzir and Muhammad bin Fuzail Shias thus an addition from the Innovators alone wouldn't serve as a proof.

They are good at dieceveing people.

They have graded Ali Bin Munzir and Muhammad bin fuzail as Thiqa narrators and not innovators. Plus Bukhari took hadiths of Shias who were reliable and thiqa according to him in his sahih. So this is Usool e hadith. 

If they still insist that both are innovators, then we can say perhaps its high standard of Sunni ilm e rijal. To call innovators thiqas. Perhaps it can be used as an evidence to call Abu Hurraira innovator since he is also thiqa lolz

 

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They have habit of calling anything they dislike as Shadd (odd).

If something is reported in less reports but by Thiqa narrator who is considered as reliable, (by no means a thiqa can be called a liar/innovator whether Sunni or Shia.) They say since it hasn't appeared in other hadiths thus it makes this addition Shadd (Odd). 

As far as I have seen, shadd hadith is hadith reported by a sahih chain (thiqa narrators) that goes against the other sahih hadiths.

So, its challenge to all people of world, to bring a single sahih hadith, which goes against the hadith:

"If you adhere to them you will not be misguided after me"

In order to call it shadd, you must give a hadith that does inkaar of this statment.

There is no single hadith on Earth that does so.

Therefore this hadith is not Shadd but is authentic as big scholors of ahke sunnah has already authenticated it as I showed scans of pages above

 

 

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As for narration of Atiyah Al Awfi to Abu Saed Al Khudri:

They say Atiyah used to goto Al Kalbi and gave him nick Abu Saed and then used to narrate his hadiths and confuse people. Thus based on this, 30+ scholors call him weak.

Now how do they know they used to goto him? Who told them that Atiyah used to hear Al Kalbis hadiths?

Its Al Kalbi himself. :)

he said Atiyah used to sit with me and gave me kuniyah Abu Saed and I used to tell him hadiths and he said: I will say narrated to me Abu Saed.

This accusation comes from well known forger liar Al Kalbi himself.

Statment of a liar and forger cannot serve as a proof to weaken a narrator can it?

therfore ibn e hajjar called him saduq and call his hadiths Hasan.

now ibn e hajar also cakled him Mudalis but we proved that accusation of tadlees is comming from liar and forger Al Kalbi thus not acceptable.

therfore this riwyaat is Hasan.

 

 

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By chance I came across a web saying this:

In contrast to a Munkar hadith, if a reliable reporter is found to add something which is not narrated by other authentic sources, the addition is accepted as long as it does not contradict them; and is known as ziyadatu thiqah (an addition by one trustworthy)

Ibn `Abdul Barr, Al-Tamhid, 3:32, as quoted by Luqman al-Salafi, Ihtimam al-Muhaddithin bi Naqd al-Hadith, p. 381f.

 

Here is link:

https://www.Islamic-awareness.org/hadith/ulum/aape.html#J50

 

If anyone can find it in book, paste it here it would be of help

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