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Irfani313

Post-Marriage Violence (PG13)

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7 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

First of all just know that, in Marriage, many things would likely make you mad, BUT that no situation, absolutely no situation, requires you to hit her. Even if God forbid someone is involved in major sins.

 

 

Salam brother, good topic. I would like to add something.

I am not sure whether it was Sistani or Khomeini or both, but I remember seeing a ruling that "if a man catches his wife in bed with someone else, he is allowed to kill them both". Or something along those lines. I couldn't find it for now.

Does anyone here know where the ruling is from and what the purpose of it was.

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20 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Salam brother, good topic. I would like to add something.

I am not sure whether it was Sistani or Khomeini or both, but I remember seeing a ruling that "if a man catches his wife in bed with someone else, he is allowed to kill them both". Or something along those lines. I couldn't find it for now.

Does anyone here know where the ruling is from and what the purpose of it was.

Ws. I find it worrying that you quote this in a domestic violence and abuse thread. The reason it is mentioned in ahkaam does not mean a man is permitted to, but owing to the extreme emotional rage and temporary insanity he may face by seeing such a sight naudhbillah, he would be able to mitigate his case for murder, or in legal terms, plea for manslaughter as opposed to murder  I.e it was not pre meditated and happened in the heat of the moment. 

On 11/9/2019 at 2:24 AM, Irfani313 said:

 

Practice these three things and inshAllah, you would be saved from any long term regrets or embarrassments. One, start practicing to walk away from the situation of potential violence. Two, teach yourself that words can’t hurt you, neither can the taunting or the sarcasm. Three, God made us husbands, the source of Sukoon (peace, protection, calm, serenity) for our women. Any action or any word that goes against us providing this Sukoon to them, brings us lower than who we are.

 

Not to mention, some women do not bruise or scar easily owing to their pigmentation or genetic disposition, but they still get hurt.

Edited by starlight

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7 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

Ws. I find it worrying that you quote this in a domestic violence and abuse thread. The reason it is mentioned in ahkaam does not mean a man is permitted to, but owing to the extreme emotional rage and temporary insanity he may face by seeing such a sight naudhbillah, he would be able to mitigate his case for murder, or in legal terms, plea for manslaughter as opposed to murder  I.e it was not pre meditated and happened in the heat of the moment.

The reason I asked about that was because everyone speaks against domestic abuse, but they don't talk about the other rulings which talks about killing.

for example, in domestic abuse the husband owes money to wife if there are marks. But the other ruling which involves killing another human being, does it involve diyah?

What if the domestic abuse happened because wife did something terrible, is hitting allowed then? no and majority of sheikh and speakers/lecturers says no too.

Then we have that ruling that, if you find your wife doing something terrible (may Allah save us all from that shame and humiliation ), you are allowed to kill her. But not to hit her? makes no sense.

Do you have the source from Sistani/Khomeini about that ruling. Any brother that knows more about that ruling.

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2 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

The reason I asked about that was because everyone speaks against domestic abuse, but they don't talk about the other rulings which talks about killing.

for example, in domestic abuse the husband owes money to wife if there are marks. But the other ruling which involves killing another human being, does it involve diyah?

What if the domestic abuse happened because wife did something terrible, is hitting allowed then? no and majority of sheikh and speakers/lecturers says no too.

Then we have that ruling that, if you find your wife doing something terrible (may Allah save us all from that shame and humiliation ), you are allowed to kill her. But not to hit her? makes no sense.

Do you have the source from Sistani/Khomeini about that ruling. Any brother that knows more about that ruling.

I think the point you are missing here is that violence against another person is never supposed to happen, but if it does, there are consequences for it, including if that person is your spouse. 

Saying that a person finding his wife in a compromising situation can kill her is not a hudud in that sense, but because Islam is a logical and practical religion, it recognizes that in such a situation, a person could do something very crazy (not instructing him or encouraging him to do it), but if it happens, and he murders the woman and the man involved or either of them, he will not be considered a murderer who must face the law agaisnt murderers, and nor will he be liable to pay diyah since diyah is not payable for a person who is facing a hudud (islamically legally prescribed punishment). For example, if the hand of a thief is cut by an Islamic law, he is not entitled to be compensated for it/diyah.

To clarify, in current legal language, he will be facing manslaughter charges as opposed to murder charges.

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@AkhiraisReal brother why are you ruining the thread? Your contribution to this thread seems absolutely foolish and unnneeded. When you don't have adequate understanding of certain matters of the religion, it makes no sense for you to be going around and telling people about it and attempting to prove some point some using it. Not to mention how sensitive these matters are to begin with, and in a thread like this where it's pretty much irrelevant? C'mon. 

Edited by AStruggler

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4 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

.

Then we have that ruling that, if you find your wife doing something terrible (may Allah save us all from that shame and humiliation ), you are allowed to kill her. But not to hit her? makes no sense.

.

Maybe this is a wrong ruling because what if a man kills his wife for another reason and then falsely accuses her of adultery?!

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On 11/9/2019 at 10:52 AM, habib e najjaar said:

 

Not to mention, some women do not bruise or scar easily owing to their pigmentation or genetic disposition, but they still get hurt. 

This is sad. Some men don’t understand what they do when they are angry. Many tragic events which happened during the history occured because men couldnt control their anger.

Edited by starlight
Edited quote

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5 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

The reason I asked about that was because everyone speaks against domestic abuse, but they don't talk about the other rulings which talks about killing.

for example, in domestic abuse the husband owes money to wife if there are marks. But the other ruling which involves killing another human being, does it involve diyah?

What if the domestic abuse happened because wife did something terrible, is hitting allowed then? no and majority of sheikh and speakers/lecturers says no too.

Then we have that ruling that, if you find your wife doing something terrible (may Allah save us all from that shame and humiliation ), you are allowed to kill her. But not to hit her? makes no sense.

Do you have the source from Sistani/Khomeini about that ruling. Any brother that knows more about that ruling.

I hate to deviate from OP ad don’t want it to go off track but to nip this in the bud, The Qur'an dosen't allow you to every kill anyone except in the situation of war or threat to your life (w/limits). Shameful acts etc. do not come under either of the two so please just disregard all these rulings as false. It is out of simple logic that should draw one to realise this would violate basic human morals. As my counter to this would be, if a man does a shameful act with another woman (which is slightly more common) would she have the divine right to kill him? pretty sure not a single scholar would say yes so thats the answer vice versa. Don't hit, don’t beat, don't kill any living thing without reason, period. Anything that tells you to do so is false/wrong. As the Prophet said something along the lines of "Whatever is not align with the Qur'an, disregard it".

19 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

4. When in rage, the best course of action, always, is to leave the place. This is what Qur’an tells us anyway when it uses the word Dharaba in that popular ayat, which means walk away. Just leave the room, or the car, or the mall, or wherever you both are butt heading. Because chances are even a light stroke of yours, even though natural because you might be mad, could damage her physically.

Alhamdulilah brother you pointed this out as some (not I've seen on this site) use it as a justification to hit a woman. 

Insha'Allah those who are married treat their women as their Queens and they can be witness to Allah you were a good, loving, caring spouse, and to those of us who are not yet married to be blessed with a pious spouse whom we can treat them just as well. 

Edited by Muslimthought97

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Guest Monaddoesnotsignautograph

a well meant post, but now let us do some analysis.

First.

Where do men get the idea to hit women from?

A )why do women feel it is neccessary to taunt or give sarcastic comments to men or their husbands?

B )why do men feel it is neccessary to taunt or give sarcastic comments to women or their husbands?

what is the motive on A and B?

Where does this type of education come from and who is educating them or why do you they thinks its acceptable?

I know the answers to all, heck even googlly will tell you it.

Lets ask a scholar. Why am I stupid?. Well buddy, we kept you like this by telling you that you are sinner, and you will act like one your whole life. Do not worry, we will save you. How will you save me?. by telling you that you are a sinner and you need to be saved by a sinner. plethora of knowledge out there, yet we keep repeating the same thing over and over. What is actually bring taught in the godly centres?

Get to the root of human behavior and you will erradicate all the social ills.

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Question: If a Muslim woman commits adultery, is it permissible for her husband to kill her?
Answer: Based on obligatory precaution, it is not permissible for him to kill her, even if he sees her in the act of committing adultery.

https://www.Sistani.org/english/book/46/2063/

Was there any ruling that said the opposite, or was I wrong?

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5 hours ago, Guest Monaddoesnotsignautograph said:

a well meant post, but now let us do some analysis.

First.

Where do men get the idea to hit women from?

A )why do women feel it is neccessary to taunt or give sarcastic comments to men or their husbands?

B )why do men feel it is neccessary to taunt or give sarcastic comments to women or their husbands?

what is the motive on A and B?

Where does this type of education come from and who is educating them or why do you they thinks its acceptable?

I know the answers to all, heck even googlly will tell you it.

Lets ask a scholar. Why am I stupid?. Well buddy, we kept you like this by telling you that you are sinner, and you will act like one your whole life. Do not worry, we will save you. How will you save me?. by telling you that you are a sinner and you need to be saved by a sinner. plethora of knowledge out there, yet we keep repeating the same thing over and over. What is actually bring taught in the godly centres?

Get to the root of human behavior and you will erradicate all the social ills.

This sounds more like a Catholicism than Islam.
 

In Islam, nobody is inherently sinner, it’s opposite in fact. Qur’an tells us that each one of us is born on the nature of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), meaning we are already connected to the divinity. It’s what we do during the duration of our lives that makes us sinners, by our own “hard work.”

Answering your A and B, only a slight minority really watches or thinks before they speak. The rest of us just talk, write, or yell whatever first comes to our consciousness.

Fix: follow the instructions of Sura al Mu’minun, https://Qur'an.com/23, and Dua Makarm ul-Akhlaq. 

 

Edited by Irfani313

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16 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Salam brother, good topic. I would like to add something.

I am not sure whether it was Sistani or Khomeini or both, but I remember seeing a ruling that "if a man catches his wife in bed with someone else, he is allowed to kill them both". Or something along those lines. I couldn't find it for now.

Does anyone here know where the ruling is from and what the purpose of it was.

I think what you are talking about comes under the topic of safeguarding your honor, property, family, or self, from fatal harm. Islam being the logical religion, allows us to safeguard ourselves and take retaliatory measures if necessary. 

Logic also dictates that those who attempt to harm others in anyway, on whatever pretext, right or wrong, should be ready to receive the same treatment from their would be victims. So a husband attempting what you wrote above, could also become the victim of her or her acquaintance(s), before he could attempt something. Are you ready for that?

Back to the main discussion.
In marriage specially, violence rarely fixes things. Walking away or separation is immensely more viable than beating her or him red and blue in any day and age. IF someone is addicted to major sins, they would find ways to do them even with their broken ribs and fractured arms. Violence is never worth it. 

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1 hour ago, Irfani313 said:

This sounds more like a Catholicism than Islam.
 

 

First of all, thanks for speaking out strongly against domestic violence.

Secondly, not sure what "Catholic " doctrine you are referring to. I'm assuming it's the concept of Original Sin?

If so, the Catholics have a complex theology surrounding the mystery of that. 

But I think in all fairness there are other churches that deserve your concern more than Catholicism if you are offended by the doctrine.

I offer you the Catechism:

"Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.
How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.
Although it is proper to each individual,original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)and at the Council of Trent (1546)."

 

okay...enough off-topic messing with threads for today.

I am aware Islam does not hold to this. That's fine.

I just think folks should know what the concept actually is that is being referenced...

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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