Hadith of 12 Caliphs and Variants

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

From Twelver-Shias .net:
 

1- Al-Bukhari (#6682) transmitted the report through Shu’ba, from ‘Abdulmalik, from Jabir b. Samura that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: There will be twelve amirs.

Shu’ba transmitted it in this concise manner. Others, like Sufyan (Sahih Muslim #3394) and Abu ‘Abdilsamad Al-Ami  (Musnad Ahmad #20019) transmitted a lengthier redaction from ‘Abdulmalik. Sufyan transmitted the report as follows: The matters of the people will continue to progress as long as they are led by twelve men.”

Abu ‘Abdilsamad Al-‘Ami transmitted the report as follows: “This religion will stay at a state of glory or the people will be in a good state until the passing of twelve caliphs.”

2- Muslim (#3393) transmitted this report through Hussain b. Abdulrahman, from Jabir b. Samurah, who reported: “This matter will not end until the passing of twelve caliphs.”

3- Muslim (#3394) narrated this report through Abu ‘Awanah, from Simak in a concise manner. However, he also transmitted (#3395) from Hammad b. Salamah from Simak: Islam will stay in a state of glory until the passing of twelve caliphs. This redaction is corroborated by Zakariyya b. Abi Za’ida’s redaction in Mustakhraj Abi Awana (#5631), which includes this addition.

4- Muslim (#3396) transmitted this report through Dawud, from Al-Sha’bi, from Jabir: “This matter will be at a state of glory until twelve caliphs.” He then transmitted (#3397) a very similar report from Ibn ‘Awn which says: “This religion will be at a state of glory, fortified until the passing of twelve caliphs.”

5- Muslim (#3398) transmitted the report through Hatim b. Isma’il, from Al-Muhajir b. Mismar, from Amer b. Sa’ad b. Abi Waqqas, from Jabir: “This religion will remain upright until the end of time or until the passing of twelve caliphs.”

Hadiths from a Comment on that WebSite:

-Simak:
لَا يَزَالُ الْإِسْلَامُ عَزِيزًا إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“Islam shall remain strong until twelve caliphs.”

-Ibn abi `Umar from `Abdul-Malik:
لَا يَزَالُ أَمْرُ النَّاسِ مَاضِيًا مَا وَلِيَهُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ رَجُلًا
“The people’s affair shall progress as long as they’re led by twelve men.”

-Ibn Mahdi from `Abdul-Malik:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ صَالِحًا حَتَّى يَكُونَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا
“This matter shall remain good until twelve chiefs (rule).”

-Abu `Abdul-Samad from `Abdul-Malik:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ عَزِيزًا أَوْ قَالَ لَا يَزَالُ النَّاسُ بِخَيْرٍ، شَكَّ أَبُو عَبْدِ الصَّمَدِ إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“This religion shall remain strong OR he said the people shall remain in goodness (the narrator was unsure) until twelve caliphs.”

-Dawoud from Sha`bi:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ عَزِيزًا إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“This matter shall remain strong until twelve caliphs”

-Mujalid from Sha`bi:
إِنَّ هَذَا الدِّينَ لَنْ يَزَالَ ظَاهِرًا عَلَى مَنْ نَاوَأَهُ، لَا يَضُرُّهُ مُخَالِفٌ وَلَا مُفَارِقٌ، حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ مِنْ أُمَّتِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“This religion shall remain victorious over its opponents, unharmed by those who oppose it or leave it, until twelve caliphs from my nation come to pass.”

-Ibn `Awn from Sha`bi:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ عَزِيزًا مَنِيعًا إِلَى اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“This religion shall remain strong and fortified until twelve caliphs.”

-`Amir bin Sa`d:
لَا يَزَالُ الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ أَوْ يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ
“The religion will remain to be upright until the hour or you are ruled by twelve caliphs all from Quraysh.”

-Isma`il bin Hurmuz from Hurmuz:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى يَكُونَ عَلَيْكُمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً كُلُّهُمْ تَجْتَمِعُ عَلَيْهِ الْأُمَّةُ
“The religion will remain to be upright until you are ruled by twelve caliphs, the nation shall gather united around them.”

-Fitr from Hurmuz:
لَا يَزَالُ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ مُؤَاتًي أَوْ مُقَارِبًا حَتَّى يَقُومَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“This matter shall continue to be appropriate or adequate until the rule of twelve caliphs.”

-Hosayn:
لا يَزَالُ هَذَا الدِّينُ قَائِمًا حَتَّى يَقُومَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“The religion will continue to be upright until the rule of twelve caliphs.”

-Hosayn:
إِنَّ هَذَا الأَمْرَ لاَ يَنْقَضِي حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ فِيهِمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً
“This matter shall not come to pass until twelve caliphs rule them.”

-Musayyib:
إِنَّ هَذَا الأَمْرَ لا يَزَالُ ظَاهِرًا لا يَضُرُّهُ خِلافُ مَنْ خَالَفَهُ حَتَّى يُؤَمَّرَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ مِنْ أُمَّتِي كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ
“This matter will remain to be victorious, unharmed by the opposition of any opponent until twelve from my nation receive authority, all of them from Quraysh.”

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

Counter argument from there side is that Islam will remain triumphant, in state of glory in times of these 12 caliphs.

If we first define what is meant by Islam being triumphant or in state of glory, it would be alot of help.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

After 19:00, they present hadith from Haq ul yaqeen by Allama Baqir Majlisi (رضي الله عنه) that Imam e Sadiq (عليه السلام)
Was asked whether Islam at the time of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was in state of glory or not,

he (عليه السلام) replied if it was then you wouldn't have found idol worshippers, or worshippers of Moon and sun.

if that's the case then how are we supposed to answer?

Also I should mentioned one thing, according to Ahle-Sunnah Yazeed was in 12 caliphs, thouhg he was L.A,

but Islam was in state of Glory.
I would like to ask them he drank Alcohol, he did zina, he sent army who burnt Ghilaaf e kaba, he killed Son of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
he arrested his family, he made fun of hadiths, he sent army who did zina with bunch of women
is that state of glory of Islam? 
no way.

[Muslim2010]

The word khalifa is exactly used in Arabic text in Qur'an for hz Adam (عليه السلام) and hz Dawood (عليه السلام). They are chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The other hadith mentions the names that first of those caliph is Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and  the 12th is Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) as informed by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Amir comes from Amir ul momineen Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Rujal comes from the hadith of khayber for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) named as Rujalun Rujal the real man / Mard.(in Urdu)

Edited November 2, 2019 by Muslim2010

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

6 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The above hadith confirm that the word Khalifa / caliph has been used in hadith that are twelve in number. The other words of Amir and Rujal are the alternatives.

The Qur'an mentions the word khalifa in exact text in Arabic as given below:

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً

 And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I will make upon the Earth a caliph (khalifa) .” (2:30)

يَا دَاوُودُ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاكَ خَلِيفَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ بِالْحَقِّ

[We said], “O David, indeed We have made you a caliph (khalifa) upon the Earth, so judge between the people in truth (38:26)

The word khalifa has been used in exact Arabic text like the same that has been used in the hadith of 12 caliphs. Thus like Hz Adam (عليه السلام) and Hz Dawud (عليه السلام). no people chosen caliph can be taken to interpret for the meaning of the hadith of 12 caliphs. The 12 caliphs are chosen representatives of Alalh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The other hadith mentions the names that first of those caliph is Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and  the 12th is Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) as informed by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

wasalam

yeah No one can show a single caliph made by ijma before Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
and also I would like to add this verse here:
Qur'an 24:55
Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession [to authority] upon the Earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them [therein] their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, [for] they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that - then those are the defiantly disobedient.


Allah will grant caliphate just like he granted to people before us. And before Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) all were divinely appointed  by Allah Almighty
 Thus ijma system ha sno basis in Qur'an and is destroyed
Since all previous caliphs were choosen by Allah divinely
All were Masoom

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[Muslim2010]

11 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The other hadith mentions the names that first of those caliph is Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and  the 12th is Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) as informed by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Amir comes from Amir ul momineen Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Rujal comes from the hadith of khayber for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) named as Rujalun Rujal the real man / Mard.(in Urdu)

I have mistakenly deleted the answer to OP. However  I also like response from OP on above mentioned part.

@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Edited November 2, 2019 by Muslim2010

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

7 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The other hadith mentions the names that first of those caliph is Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and  the 12th is Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) as informed by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Amir comes from Amir ul momineen Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Rujal comes from the hadith of khayber for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) named as Rujalun Rujal the real man / Mard.(in Urdu)

wasalam

in 24:55 its crystal clear that Allah is going to give caliphate just like he gave to people before us.
Now for the people who are going to call above hadith zaef,
its established from Qur'an that Allah is going to appoint caliph like he appoitned before us I:e divine appointment,

and history is evident Prophets before leaving the world 'by order of Allah' told their followers about the next Prophet

because if Allah is going to appoint them, then Allah must also name then in order for us to know that he has appointed them. its common sense

and if you can't find names on your side, then its you who are standing on the wrong side.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

@Muslim2010
Brother what do you say about their claim that 12 caliphs are the one's in era of whom Islam will remain in state of Glory.
and neither of our Imams were caliphs (rulers) but were oppressed by others

thus they say this hadith doesn't refer to Imams of Shia rather some rulers in whom era Islam will remain in stat of glory.

and the mention the names all by themselves. 

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

@Muslim2010
Brother what do you say about their claim that 12 caliphs are the one's in era of whom Islam will remain in state of Glory.
and neither of our Imams were caliphs (rulers) but were oppressed by others

thus they say this hadith doesn't refer to Imams of Shia rather some rulers in whom era Islam will remain in stat of glory.

and the mention the names all by themselves.

1. The verses of Qur'an mentions the  word khalifa and exactly the same word khalifa  is used in hadith of 12 caliphs. They are from purified progeny of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). There is no alternate hadith from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for the names of people chosen caliphs in any of the Sunni Sahiheen books. This rejects the principle and method of Sunni people chosen caliph.

2- The verses of Qur'an provide the evidence for chosen representatives and they are only referred as the khalifa.

3.  The verses of Qur'an confirm that there are no rulers selected by people mentioned as khalifa in Qur'an . Just for the sake of information that there were 1,24,000 but only a few governed in land. This does not mean that they were not chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) thus khalifa in Qur'an are chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it is not mandatory that they should govern in land. This does not place any objection on their caliph status as per Qur'an. The same principle applies to 12 caliphs / Imams/ Amirs from the progeny of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).. for the guidance of the people.

4.  Islam will be in its peak of Glory in the reign of the 12th Imam AL Mahdi (عليه السلام).This is the belief of all Muslims Sunni and Shia that  in the period of Imam Al-Mahdi as there will not be any poor people. The religion will be only Islam its in glory. Many narrations describe these facts.

wasalam

Edited November 2, 2019 by Muslim2010

[Hajji Kadhim]

It is sad if the image Islam was glorious to them under the dictatorship of bani Umayya and bani Alabbas

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

11 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

1. The verses of Qur'an mentions the  word khalifa and exactly the same word khalifa  is used in hadith of 12 caliphs. They are from purified progeny of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). There is no alternate hadith from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for the names of people chosen caliphs in any of the Sunni Sahiheen books. This rejects the principle and method of Sunni people chosen caliph.

2- The verses of Qur'an provide the evidence for chosen representatives and they are only referred as the khalifa.

3.  The verses of Qur'an confirm that there are no rulers selected by people mentioned as khalifa in Qur'an . Just for the sake of information that there were 1,24,000 but only a few governed in land. This does not mean that they were not chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) thus khalifa in Qur'an are chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it is not mandatory that they should govern in land. This does not place any objection on their caliph status as per Qur'an. The same principle applies to 12 caliphs / Imams/ Amirs from the progeny of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).. for the guidance of the people.

4.  Islam will be in its peak of Glory in the reign of the 12th Imam AL Mahdi (عليه السلام).This is the belief of all Muslims Sunni and Shia that  in the period of Imam Al-Mahdi as there will not be any poor people. The religion will be only Islam its in glory. Many narrations describe these facts.

wasalam

I wonder how their explanation of state of glory of Islam goes against them since they also include () Muawiyah and Yazeed in the 12 caliphs
and in their Sahih Bukhari hadith is present that:

Only a hypocirte will hate Ali (عليه السلام)

and in State of Glory of Islam I:e( Muawiyahs Era ) , Islam (Emaan of momin  I:e Ali (عليه السلام) was abused and cursed on mimbars) is that that state of glory of Islam?
And yazeed, I mentionedabove their scholors historians have written that, what he did in Madina is that state of glory of Islam?
Uthman was put in severe circumstances and then killed by their own people is that state of glory of Islam?

in era of Ali (عليه السلام) Muawiyah Hazrat Ayesha rebelled against Ali (عليه السلام) is that state of glory of Islam?

If it means government then what about Brazil? Would you admit that Islam wasn't triumphant in Brazil at that time and tons of other countries who never had Islamic government was Islam not in state of glory there?
There tafseer makes no sense at all . Its deviant and Batil tafseer

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

These people make confusion between to things to deviate people.

Glory of Islam and Glory of Muslims.

Glory of Islam has nothing to do with Glory of Muslims,
In Qur'an Allah says,

Qur'an 9:33
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
Qur'an 61:9
It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.

Allah Almighty, who sent his messenger Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) with deen e Haq, to manifest it over other religion, you are telling me that today Islam is not triumphant? For God's sake. I mentioned above hadith from Haq ul Yaqeen, which clearly is going against these verses hence a fabrication according to rules given by Imam e Sadiq (عليه السلام).

I present a simple Question,
There is rule of Christians in America, isn't it?
But I thought that Allah was ruling over the universe and America was part of universe isn't it?
no one can deny, that Allah has power over all things, then how can deen of Allah not be triumphant?
It doesn't matter who is ruling and who isn't, since ultimately the one who is having power over everything is none other than Allah.
thus making his government universal, and Islam Triumphant.
 

Like in Subcontinent, Muslims ruled once, then English came, when Muslims left the teachings of Islam, they started to fall,
but saying that Islam started to fall with Muslims nauzobillah is something that the one should be ashamed of and is clear rejection of above ayah.

No religion can take over Islam because Islam is truth and teachings of Islam are what that cannot be matched, so if no other thought or no other way is better than ways of Islam, 
then Islam for sure is in state of Glory. and Muslims leaving Islamic teachings, isn't fall of Islam nauzobillah, but fall of Muslims!


 

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

No religion can take over Islam because Islam is truth and teachings of Islam are what that cannot be matched, so if no other thought or no other way is better than ways of Islam, 

then Islam for sure is in state of Glory. and Muslims leaving Islamic teachings, isn't fall of Islam nauzobillah, but fall of Muslims!

يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِـُٔوا۟ نُورَ ٱللَّهِ بِأَفْوَٰهِهِمْ وَٱللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِهِۦ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ ٱلْكَٰفِرُونَ {٨} هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُۥ بِٱلْهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُۥ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِۦ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ ٱلْمُشْرِكُونَ {٩}

061:008 They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light though the faithless should be averse.
061:009 It is He who has sent His Apostle with guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all religions though the polytheists should be averse.

wasalam

Edited November 3, 2019 by Muslim2010

[just a muslim]

On 11/2/2019 at 1:51 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Also I should mentioned one thing, according to Ahle-Sunnah Yazeed was in 12 caliphs, thouhg he was L.A,

lol what? where did you get that from? even muawiyah wasnt a caliph according to Sunni ahadith. let alone yazeed

[Diaz]

1 hour ago, just a Muslim said:

lol what? where did you get that from? even muawiyah wasnt a caliph according to Sunni ahadith. let alone yazeed

According to islamiqa 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

6 hours ago, just a Muslim said:

lol what? where did you get that from? even muawiyah wasnt a caliph according to Sunni ahadith. let alone yazeed

I aint talking about khilafat e Rashida

 

I am talking about these 12 amir's caliphs who Sunni say they are ones in era of whom Islam will be triumphant and you scholors mentioned names of 12 caliphs which include yazeed and Muawiyah as well

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

6 hours ago, just a Muslim said:

lol what? where did you get that from? even muawiyah wasnt a caliph according to Sunni ahadith. let alone yazeed

Forget about yazeed and Muawiyah.

Was Islam triumphant in Era of Hazrat Abu Bakr?

If yes then was their Islamic government in Brazil at that time?

Was Islam triumphant in brazil at that time?

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

6 hours ago, just a Muslim said:

lol what? where did you get that from? even muawiyah wasnt a caliph according to Sunni ahadith. let alone yazeed

You are the ones who make government condition for caliphate according to above hadith and relate glory of Islam with governemnt of Muslims.

[just a muslim]

 

On 11/3/2019 at 7:01 PM, Diaz said:

According to islamiqa 

I said according to Sunni ahadith. not according to islamqa.

20 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I aint talking about khilafat e Rashida

 

I am talking about these 12 amir's caliphs who Sunni say they are ones in era of whom Islam will be triumphant and you scholors mentioned names of 12 caliphs which include yazeed and Muawiyah as well

I am also talking about the 12 caliph. not khilafat e rashida. muawiya and yazid werent caliphs. they were kings.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 minutes ago, just a Muslim said:

 

I said according to Sunni ahadith. not according to islamqa.

I am also talking about the 12 caliph. not khilafat e rashida. muawiya and yazid werent caliphs. they were kings.

throw Muawiyah and Yazeed away
Tell me was Islam triumphant in Brazil in era of Hazrat Abu Bakr?

[Muslim2010]

14 hours ago, just a Muslim said:

I said according to Sunni ahadith. not according to islamqa.

I am also talking about the 12 caliph. not khilafat e rashida. muawiya and yazid werent caliphs. they were kings.

There is no people chosen caliph exist in Qur'an. If you think otherwise then please quote us an example by name of that caliph selected by the people for their own guidance  please.

I like to see one single hadith from Sunni Sahihen books  mentioning the names of all 12 caliphs whom we are supposed to follow in the light of the Prophet hadiths for 12 caliphs /. amirs ./ Imams.

wasalam

Edited November 4, 2019 by Muslim2010

[just a muslim]

On 11/4/2019 at 8:02 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

throw Muawiyah and Yazeed away
Tell me was Islam triumphant in Brazil in era of Hazrat Abu Bakr?

 

On 11/4/2019 at 9:45 PM, Muslim2010 said:

There is no people chosen caliph exist in Qur'an. If you think otherwise then please quote us an example by name of that caliph selected by the people for their own guidance  please.

I like to see one single hadith from Sunni Sahihen books  mentioning the names of all 12 caliphs whom we are supposed to follow in the light of the Prophet hadiths for 12 caliphs /. amirs ./ Imams.

wasalam

I am not interested in debating either of you on any of the topics you mentioned. I simply wanted to correct the incorrect assumption that ahlus sunnah take muawiyah and yazeed as caliphs. they don’t. their ahadith mention the rule of muawiya and yazeed as a kingship. not khilafah. let alone khilafat e rashidah. 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

12 hours ago, just a Muslim said:

 

I am not interested in debating either of you on any of the topics you mentioned. I simply wanted to correct the incorrect assumption that ahlus sunnah take muawiyah and yazeed as caliphs. they don’t. their ahadith mention the rule of muawiya and yazeed as a kingship. not khilafah. let alone khilafat e rashidah. 

okay fine.
but let me know who these 12 caliphs are in that case.
since followers of 12 caliphs are only Shia Imami Ithna Ashari.
 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

12 hours ago, just a Muslim said:

 

I am not interested in debating either of you on any of the topics you mentioned. I simply wanted to correct the incorrect assumption that ahlus sunnah take muawiyah and yazeed as caliphs. they don’t. their ahadith mention the rule of muawiya and yazeed as a kingship. not khilafah. let alone khilafat e rashidah. 

also Ibn taymiyah is from Ahle Sunnah right? He called em caliphs!
We Shias consider Muawiyah and Yazeed as hypocrites 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[Muslim2010]

On 11/5/2019 at 5:20 PM, just a Muslim said:

I am not interested in debating either of you on any of the topics you mentioned. I simply wanted to correct the incorrect assumption that ahlus sunnah take muawiyah and yazeed as caliphs. they don’t. their ahadith mention the rule of muawiya and yazeed as a kingship. not khilafah. let alone khilafat e rashidah. 

Thanks for your reply. It confirms that there is no answer you have to my questions .

wasalam

[Muslim2010]

21 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

but let me know who these 12 caliphs are in that case.
since followers of 12 caliphs are only Shia Imami Ithna Ashari.

Some scholars like Mula Ali Qari and ibn Taymiyyah gave this list:

Abu Bakr

Umar

Uthman

Ali

Mu'awiya 

Yazid bin Mu'awiya

Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Walid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Sulayman bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Umar bin Abdul Aziz

Yazid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Hasham bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

 

It is quoted for information. This also confirms that Sunni concept of caliphate is false as the 12 caliphs include hypocrites.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Muslim2010

[Russel Ahmed]

On 11/6/2019 at 9:33 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Some scholars like Mula Ali Qari and ibn Taymiyyah gave this list:

Abu Bakr

Umar

Uthman

Ali

Mu'awiya 

Yazid bin Mu'awiya

Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Walid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Sulayman bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Umar bin Abdul Aziz

Yazid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Hasham bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

 

It is quoted for information. This also confirms that Sunni concept of caliphate is false as the 12 caliphs include hypocrites.

They called Muawiyah and Yazeed as khalifas in the sense that they had power  to rule.  They never said that  they were good people or good rulers. Ibn Tayimmah himself clearly mentioned that khilafat e rashda ended with  Imam Hassan , and Muawiyah is the first king of Islam. 

[Panzerwaffe]

On 11/6/2019 at 12:11 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

okay fine.
but let me know who these 12 caliphs are in that case.
since followers of 12 caliphs are only Shia Imami Ithna Ashari.
 

But 10 out of 12 never became caliphs ?

So this hadith does not apply to 12er ithna ashari 

[Ashvazdanghe]

The Imams were caliphs but they didn’t have enough manpower & army so they had to tolerate illegitimate rulers of Ummayid & Abbasids .

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

But 10 out of 12 never became caliphs ?

So this hadith does not apply to 12er ithna ashari 

Caliph is choosen representative of Allah Almighty on Earth.

So all were caliphs.

No guide ever sent to humans was meant to rule them, but to guide them. And government was caliphs right, which was mostly snatched by evil ones.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 3/21/2020 at 3:24 AM, Russel Ahmed said:

They called Muawiyah and Yazeed as khalifas in the sense that they had power  to rule.  They never said that  they were good people or good rulers. Ibn Tayimmah himself clearly mentioned that khilafat e rashda ended with  Imam Hassan , and Muawiyah is the first king of Islam. 

Basically yoh just choosed between 50+ caliphs, prepared random list of 12 and said see these are tweleve caliphs whether good or bad.

According to you, ruler (whether good or bad) is a caliph and this system of caliphs goes on with 50+ caliphs not 12.

For sake of argument, if we accept those 12, where is Mahdi in list?

[Muslim2010]

On 3/22/2020 at 7:49 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

But 10 out of 12 never became caliphs ?

So this hadith does not apply to 12er ithna ashari 

 

On 11/2/2019 at 11:48 AM, Muslim2010 said:

1. The verses of Qur'an mentions the  word khalifa and exactly the same word khalifa  is used in hadith of 12 caliphs. They are from purified progeny of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). There is no alternate hadith from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for the names of people chosen caliphs in any of the Sunni Sahiheen books. This rejects the principle and method of Sunni people chosen caliph.

2- The verses of Qur'an provide the evidence for chosen representatives and they are only referred as the khalifa.

3.  The verses of Qur'an confirm that there are no rulers selected by people mentioned as khalifa in Qur'an . Just for the sake of information that there were 1,24,000 but only a few governed in land. This does not mean that they were not chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) thus khalifa in Qur'an are chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it is not mandatory that they should govern in land. This does not place any objection on their caliph status as per Qur'an. The same principle applies to 12 caliphs / Imams/ Amirs from the progeny of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).. for the guidance of the people.

4.  Islam will be in its peak of Glory in the reign of the 12th Imam AL Mahdi (عليه السلام).This is the belief of all Muslims Sunni and Shia that  in the period of Imam Al-Mahdi as there will not be any poor people. The religion will be only Islam its in glory. Many narrations describe these facts.

wasalam

 

[Russel Ahmed]

On 3/23/2020 at 2:41 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Basically yoh just choosed between 50+ caliphs, prepared random list of 12 and said see these are tweleve caliphs whether good or bad.

According to you, ruler (whether good or bad) is a caliph and this system of caliphs goes on with 50+ caliphs not 12.

For sake of argument, if we accept those 12, where is Mahdi in list?

The  hadeeth no where says that the rulers will be one after the other.   I  above gave you the majority sunni view . My personal view is that it is not continious ,  After Imam Hassan , next is Umar Abdul Aziz  , and then there will be some more between him and Imam Mahdi. 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 4/24/2020 at 11:34 AM, Russel Ahmed said:

The  hadeeth no where says that the rulers will be one after the other.   I  above gave you the majority sunni view . My personal view is that it is not continious ,  After Imam Hassan , next is Umar Abdul Aziz  , and then there will be some more between him and Imam Mahdi. 

the hadith above also doesn't say imams will not be one after another.

In hadith, prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) referred 12 as his caliphs i:e Caliph of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), which is enough to prove their Adalah. and in other hadith, Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and The righteous caliphs has been made obligatory upon us.

You simply started guessing again lol.

They are caliphs of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), not yours, you cannot name anyone as caliph of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). just by your own will.

[gharib570]

There is a good chance that this hadith is a politically fabricated narration which the twelvers used later to justify the belief in twelve imams. Such a hadith likely came into existence in the Umayyad/Abbasid rule to justify the oppressive political rule. It is a known fact that the Shi'a always disputed on the number of the imams - for example take the Zaydi/Ismaili split - why did the pre-Twelvers not rely on this hadith at the time of Jafar as-Sadiq (عليه السلام)?

This is where the confusion began in my humble opinion, the prophet (s) presented Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) to the believers as master of the believers because he was the most virtuous (a'lam or afdal) in following the Quran and the prophet (s) [Sunnah] - this is who should be the Amir al-Mu'mineen. You will find the early Shia debates amongst the Zaydis about imamate was always around the issue of virtue - whether the early caliphs were classed as such or whether 'Uthman deserved this.

Quran 3:68  Indeed, the most worthy of Abraham among the people are those who followed him [in submission to Allah] and this prophet, and those who believe [in his message]. And Allah is the ally of the believers (wali al-Mu'mineen)

Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) was overthrown by the caliphs because Abu Bakr and 'Umar (and others) became jealous and thought prophet (s) was trying to setup a dynasty because Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) also happened to be the first cousin of the prophet and had married his daughter (sa) to him. One of the most famous hadiths from the prophet (s) which can be found in early Shia hadith collections such as Kitab Sulaym and Sunni sources is:

‘A community will not elect at all, a man (ruler) for its affairs whilst there is a more knowledgeable one, is present, among them, except that it will not cease to decline lower in their affairs until they revert back to that which they had avoided’.

The matter eventually did fall back to Imam 'Ali because Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman lacked proper understanding of the Qu'ran and Sunnah because they were merely politically leaders unlike Imam 'Ali. This is why Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) famously refuses to accept the caliphate based on the practices of the two caliphs, when he is in the shura after 'Umar's death. Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) was in fact following the verse from the Quran below:

Quran 4:59 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Our scholars have misunderstood this verse because they do not want to believe that "those in authority" are in fact elected (righty or wrongly) by the believers. This is why Allah only orders unconditional obedience to himself and the Messenger (عليه السلام). Beyond that, Muslims are only obliged to follow a leader IF they stick to those two sources - this is why as I pointed out Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) rejected the caliphate in the shura of 'Umar, because it involved the practice of the two caliphs which contravened the Qu'ran and Sunnah. This is why Jafari fiqh is different today because of these actions of Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام).

The Wali al-Amr is simply the leader of the believers (amir al-Mu'mineen) and if there is one more qualified then this constitutes injustice. This is a rational principle as any organisation will fail unless the most qualified and mertorious people are in charge. This is the model which Muhammad (s) was trying to build of the believers - it just so happened that his first cousin was the best of these - this is where the confusion began.

Later on the Shi'a scholars misunderstood this designation of Imam 'Ali to the community as Amir al-Mu'mineen and they too thought the prophet (s) trying to setup a lineage priesthood, similar to Aaron in Judaism - The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers maintain that Aaron received from God a monopoly over the priesthood for himself and his male descendants (Exodus 28:1). They then interpreted Quranic verses in this manner thinking that Allah had bestowed a caliphate ONLY on the lineage of Imam Husayn ibn 'Ali (عليه السلام). This becomes most obvious when you find some hadith referring to Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) as being named after Harun's (عليه السلام) sons - Shabbar and Shubbayr.

Of course Harun's son's never had these names! This was just the Shia scholars at the time trying to work out the theory of imamate. Even Nu'mani in his Ghaybah refers to the twelve princes of Ishmail (عليه السلام) mentioned in the Bible as being the Twelve imams which is completely incorrect! The twelve imams hadith quoted above was never quoted by the imams at all but the narrations were later inserted when the Imami community finally decided on twelve imams. The Imam al-Mahdi is simply a guiding imam who follows the Quran and Sunnah.

Quran 32:24 And We made from among them leaders guiding by Our command when they were patient and [when] they were certain of Our signs.

Quran 28:41  And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped.

As part of Allah's creative will, as per the actions of the people, he creates Imams. Whether those people are Imams of Guidance or Imams of Misguidance is dependent upon their actions. Obeying these imams is conditional as per ayat Quran 4:59 above. Even some Shi'a countries have realised that they need an Imam or Wali al-Amr because Imam Mahdi is a concept or an idea which has been misunderstood in my humble opinion. This is why some Akhbaris think that these rulers are usurping the right of Imam al-Mahdi - am I right?

Imamate is not a divine station and this is why Allah has not ordered unconditional obedience to it as per Quran 4:59 above. It is up to the believers to appoint the Wali al-Amr and the believers to obey as long as the Wali al-Amr obeys the Qu'ran and Sunnah, which Allah has ordered obedience to. If you think about it, this is what happened with 'Uthman ibn 'Affan - he was overthrown because the Muslims is dissatisfied with his rule because he was not obeying the Quran and Sunnah.

In my belief as a Shia, is that we have completely misunderstood the concept of Imamate. Imam al-Mahdi is simply any Muslim imam who calls to the correct interpretation of the Qu'ran and Sunnah - which I believe takes place through the ahl al-Bayt as per Hadith al-Thaqalayn. It is up to the believers to organise themselves to make this happen, not an infallible imam!

Sunnis have gone to the other extreme and have accepted people like Mu'awiyah and Yazid as Amirs and Imams - basically anyone who occupies the position of authority (amr) is Amir al-Mu'mineen for them regardless of their virtue. This is why for Sufis the wali is purely a spiritual figure because Sunni Islam a long time ago divorced the political and spiritual - in reality the moment the caliphate from usurped from Imam 'Ali and decided they decided amongst themselves that a less qualified leader could become the Wali al-Amr.

It is all politics my friend and the preachers would be out of a job if the truth was presented... You must be aware that these preachers have existed all the way from the Umayyads and Abbasids and they are still reading from the same books...

Salaam