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Guest31324

Career VS Marriage

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Salaam

So basically my sister is a 2nd year medical student and she's 21... Lately, she has been talking a lot about marriage and she has said she wants to get married but she is also very goal oriented and has a lot of dreams that she wants to fulfil career wise..

As we all know the medical field is a veryy long journey and it needs alot of time and determination and I feel getting married is only going to end if not slow her down in terms of her dreams and her career..  Please advice..  What's the best option for her because she's still very young and she can focus on her career, while she waits for her Mr. Right.

Also, I think what's made her feel this way is all the pressure from the society...  Every other person is interested in when she's getting married and honestly very few people are out there motivating her to complete her studies and not jump into marriage straight away. She gets things like "You are getting older now" "No guy will marry you", "when will you get kids", "You'll get old studying". I've explained her several times not to listen but obviously it has affected her..  Plz help!! 

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W/a

I don't know if I can advise but I can just say that I am in a similar yet different position as your sister. I wonder if she's the oldest in the fam? I am the oldest, but alhamdulilah, no pressure from anyone and actually no talks of marriage which is quite great. One has to figure out what they want in life first. Do you want to go to med school and practice-- that's awesome. Do you want to start a family early-- that's your choice as well. Also one must never forget the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the best of planners. 

I personally enjoy not knowing about the future and thus not stressing about the future. I also want to pursue med, but it's even a longer path in the U.S where one has to get their bachelors first and apply to med school (even may take several gap years!) attend 4 years med, then 3 years of residency, until one 'officially' practices. One can do a lot in the meantime, a career is not just a job, it's a lifestyle, and whatever lifestyle means to you one can incorporate it along with their career. Also one should not think of med school as 'school' it's technically a career and one must treat it is a job. Does one not have a family if they have a job? of course, that is nonsense, and some people still don't understand that med school is not really a school but rather a career.

Best of luck.

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A Muslim girl who was among the top students nationally in my country and very focussed about her career got married in 2nd year of med school and had a child in 4th year and one child while she was doing her internship. She is not the first female Muslim medical student I know who has done this. 

It will be tough, it will require an extra patient and supportive family and spouse, it could mean dealing with a child before one plans for, but it is not impossible. 

If she is ready for marriage, and has good proposals coming, why should she reject them? It would be wise as a family to have a written pre nup relating to her studies e.g what level of support will be required from her spouse and his family. 

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8 hours ago, starlight said:

not.Spouse might abandon you,career won't.

As a person who was laid off from a career job during a recession, I disagree with this. Everything in life is a risk. 

Medical career might be more stable and reliable than my engineering career though - even during a recession people still get sick. 

But stability alone might not be so nice as sharing it with spouse and children. Don't marry for the sake of marriage, but also don't turn down the right proposal. A good marriage will make a good career more successful and rewarding. (Though at times possibly more difficult.)

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Ask her or try to determine if she has started to like someone. Like ask her who or what kind of Mr.. right she has in mind. I agree with starlight on this one. An education will bring her income and that means most things in life, including the right sort of Mr.. rights and their continuous right attitude. If she can secure her future first then that would be much better for everyone.

 

Edited by Darth Vader

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10 hours ago, AStruggler said:

An excerpt from, "Advice from His Eminence, Sayyid Ali al-Sistani (may the Almighty prolong his life) to the Believing Youth" (http://www.Sistani.org/english/archive/25240/):

Fifth: Try to start a family by getting married and procreating without any delay. Having a family is a source of pleasure and affability, a motive for hard work, a cause for sobriety and being responsible, an investment of energy for the future, and a defense against forbidden and lowly deeds. It has been narrated that one who gets married has attained half of his religion. Foremost, marriage is a necessary course of life and a natural human instinct. Those who abandon it fall into trouble and are inflicted with dullness and laziness. Do not be afraid of being impoverished by marriage, because God, the Glorified, has put many causes of abundance in marriage that one may not be aware of at first. Also, pay attention to the character of the woman you want to marry, and to her piety and discipline, and do not be occupied with evaluating her beauty, her appearance, and her job, because those traits are a veil that may be removed when life reveals its hardships. There are warnings in the Hadith against marrying a woman merely for her looks. Moreover, one who marries a woman for her piety and character will have a blessed marriage.

Let young unmarried women and their guardians not favor getting a job over starting a family, because marriage is a necessary course of life, while a job is more of a complement to it. It is not wise to abandon the former for the sake of the latter. Those who do not understand this principle will regret it later in life when regret is of no use. Life’s experiences attest to this.

Guardians are not permitted to prevent their daughters from getting married, nor are they permitted to put obstacles in their way using improper traditions not required by God, such as asking for exorbitant dowers or waiting for cousins and sayyids, because there are many sources of corruption in these traditions. God made fathers the custodians of their daughters only so that they counsel their daughters and choose the best option for them. One who confines a woman for other than her interest has committed a sin that endures as long as her suffering, and has opened one of Hell’s doors upon himself.

This was very helpful...  However I think it's important that we read the whole document and all 8 of the advice, it says a lot..  And to be honest it was just what we needed! Thanks for the link :)

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4 hours ago, Guest31324 said:

This was very helpful...  However I think it's important that we read the whole document and all 8 of the advice, it says a lot..  And to be honest it was just what we needed! Thanks for the link :)

Yes, it is indeed amazing advice.

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The fact that it's 'career vs marriage' in the first place shows flawed mentality. Many people juggle a career and successful marriage. It's not rocket science. It's hard, but its manageable if you're working and marrying for the right reasons, and pursuing the right career and person. Medicine is a demanding career, but many doctors marry and have kids while studying and trying to get their life together. A lady very close to me, came from a different country, converted her medical degree (which is very hard) whilst being married. She then got pregnant and raised two children while still trying to establish herself as a junior doctor. She continuously moved to different cities throughout her life, and probably hasn't stayed in one place for more than 3 years. Her husband is also a doctor. She is now a successful consultant neurologist. This woman didn't come from a spectacular family or have any extraordinary circumstances that aided her. She had hardly any family when she moved to this country. So, in lieu of such a person (who there are many people like) who are we to sit down and complain that we can't juggle a husband and a job? You're either doing the wrong job or marrying the wrong person. Otherwise, it will work out if you work hard. 

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It is halal to use non-permanent birth control to try to avoid having children until the career is in a stable place. A woman isn't obligated to get her husband's permission to use birth control, but I recommend it be a couple decision. Also, no preventative method is 100% effective. 

Marriage won't interfere with career, raising children will. 

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Studying medicine is indeed a job and I know. This situation would be more difficult for a man since he is expected to provide for the family and marriage before having a career cannot sustain a family. It is not reasonable in this day and age where most of us are living from paycheck to paycheck. If the father of the man is expected to provide for his son's education in medicine and his family, it is unreasonable and very difficult especially for those that live in Western countries. It is not as if our sexual desires appear in our 20s, we have had them since teen-hood so marriage for the sake of sexual relief in such a position will make matters more difficult for the entire family and seems illogical. 

By the time she graduates and finds a good job she will still be young, so to imply that a 20 y.o. is becoming old for marriage is preposterous. Most of us aren't living lives where we can get married young and I sense that the traditions and cultures our people follow do not help us in this situation, but rather corner us. We are told to become doctors, engineers, lawyers, professionals to keep our country alive, but to abstain from sexual relief until marriage which is possible if financially well-off or ready, but what of those who do not have the money and time? Are they forsaken from sex or sexual relief or are they forsaken from following their ambitions simply because they didn't have enough money or time to care for a family and studies? 

If we were all expected to marry young, then how many of us will truly manage fulfilling our ambitions and endeavors? Is the Muslim population expected to take loans to do it? Abstain from studying for professions that could take up to 8 years? We will all get married, with lousy jobs, in an already dying economy which will only become worse with fewer professionals around, all whilst having the responsibility of caring for those that you bring into this world. 

I do not think this is a dilemma, and in my humble opinion, it is best to continue your studies to have a job in the future which will provide for a family and keep that family at ease. In the meantime it is our Jihad to suppress our sexual desires by trying. Is it not better to have a family living comfortably in the future than to have a family living with scraps now and will only have a bleaker future? 

Only God knows what we go through and only He can judge us. He is indeed the most Merciful and Beneficent. Whichever road you take, for whatever reasons, may your faith and will remain strong. 

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I also just want to point out that most people have relationships while they study/work. They even cohabit together etc. So what's the difference with marriage for Muslims? Just a word that is said? A contract that is formed? It's no different to what westerners do throughout university and their working lives. 

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Except marriage entails children and providing for your wife. Sure you can perhaps go on 1 year with safe sex but what about for 6-8 years? What's the point anyways? Just for the sex? The relationship would probably die by the time you even get children. That's why many unmarried couple eventually get married in the West. They eventually are forced to because of an unwanted pregnancy which could lead to an unhealthy relationship where the only thing that is attaching the two is the child they brought into the world and even then it may end with a divorce, only causing more problems for everyone. All because their initial motive was merely the sexual release they were deprived of. It's easy being idealistic in this regard but most people don't have it that easy. The concept of marriage at this age is ridiculous if I can't even provide for myself because I'm still studying! 

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19 hours ago, starlight said:

Okay, bring on the disagrees.:dry:

NOT from me.

To expand on what you said:

1] My grandmother was born in 1901. She use to talk about how mad and upset her two older sisters were when the State raised the age-for-marriage from 12 to 14. They had had set marriage plans with their future husbands. At the same time, she thought "it was disgusting" to marry that young (because she thought the men treated them 'like little girls"). She didn't marry until she was 18.

2] So in the sixties and seventies when American girls were starting careers and owning businesses (like she did) in larger numbers, she said those girls had time to still get married and probably "do better" with whom they did marry.

3} My little sister childcared (verbalized noun) for a woman who was close to finishing her medical specialty -and a comparatively difficult one at that- and then entered a group practice. That doctor did it and still does with some teaching added in.

What l recommend is for her to finish, wholeheartedly. med-school -then enter a specialty if that is her plan. lnshallah, her hubby will come into view. Crossing cultures, it is likely not percieved as "forward" for her to send an inquirer to any and all prospects* --like a trusted male cousin and failing that a brother. EDIT ADDED: She and her inquirer also have to see who are the "shy ones" who are too shy to initiate any contact. The 'shy man' usually make the better husbands --in American folk lore. End Edit

When she meets whomever, have her listen for the verbs he uses (they should mostly match the ones she thinks in), the 'same' societal views, a compatable sense of humor, an the usual things -manners, level of politeness, and so on. Have her make a workbook to think her side through. And though she will ask the old, smart women for advice or things to watchout for, in the final analysis, she has to listen to herself at the core level. lf she is in med-school, it is very unlikely she is 'flighty', as Americans use to say.

Now here is something my ex did: l had a written exam. No joke. She sat there while l took it because she not only wrote the questions, but filled in her own answers which l could not see because they were folded over and this way l could not cheat and l'd also know she wasn't.

*prospects - l always found this word American girls use humorous, like 'prospector', prospecting for gold(Au) . . . . . . . or lead(Pb). 

Edited by hasanhh

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6 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

NOT from me.

To expand on what you said:

1] My grandmother was born in 1901. She use to talk about how mad and upset her two older sisters were when the State raised the age-for-marriage from 12 to 14. They had had set marriage plans with their future husbands. At the same time, she thought "it was disgusting" to marry that young (because she thought the men treated them 'like little girls"). She didn't marry until she was 18.

2] So in the sixties and seventies when American girls were starting careers and owning businesses (like she did) in larger numbers, she said those girls had time to still get married and probably "do better" with whom they did marry.

3} My little sister childcared (verbalized noun) for a woman who was close to finishing her medical specialty -and a comparatively difficult one at that- and then entered a group practice. That doctor did it and still does with some teaching added in.

What l recommend is for her to finish, wholeheartedly. med-school -then enter a specialty if that is her plan. lnshallah, her hubby will come into view. Crossing cultures, it is likely not percieved as "forward" for her to send an inquirer to any and all prospects* --like a trusted male cousin and failing that a brother. 

When she meets whomever, have her listen for the verbs he uses (they should mostly match the ones she thinks in), the 'same' societal views, a compatable sense of humor, an the usual things -manners, level of politeness, and so on. Have her make a workbook to think her side through. And though she will ask the old, smart women for advice or things to watchout for, in the final analysis, she has to listen to herself at the core level. lf she is in med-school, it is very unlikely she is 'flighty', as Americans use to say.

Now here is something my ex did: l had a written exam. No joke. She sat there while l took it because she not only wrote the questions, but filled in her own answers which l could not see because they were folded over and this way l could not cheat and l'd also know she wasn't.

*prospects - l always found this word American girls use humorous, like 'prospector', prospecting for gold(Au) . . . . . . . or lead(Pb). 

Makes sense...

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13 minutes ago, King said:

I wouldn't marry a doctor, it takes a ton of time and commitment.

The worry in marrying a doctor is that if you make them really mad, she can do more to you than putting ipecac in your food or drink.

:grin:

 

Note:

:sorry:"l'm sorry, but l had this in the back of my brain and l couldn't resist."

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9 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

The worry in marrying a doctor is that if you make them really mad, she can do more to you than putting ipecac in your food or drink.

My ex-husband threatened to poison me and the only thing I did was be pregnant with a girl child. Well educated, respectable family, practicing Muslim, doesn't mean a thing. A person can be outwardly "perfect" and still be a psychopath. Trust the red flags! 

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Guest Allah is Incharge

Salaam,

All are free to marry or choose pursuing a career before marrying. But before any action/decision one must always ask "what is it that my Allah expects of me", that is, "His will vs my will should be given preference", cause Allah knows best and He is in charge of all things (so you won't fall into trouble in matters of the world as well when you follow His guidance).

Also all these discussions as to how a career is a source of security and marriage isn't, and the discussion about children, leave one huge thing being not realized/discussed:

"WHO IS WATCHING OVER US!"

WHO IS RAAZIQ
WHO PROVIDES LIFE (birth of children)
WHO IS THEIR PROVIDER (the children and their parents)
WHO PROVIDES SECURITY
WHO IS ALĀ KULLÉ SHAE IN QADEER
IN WHOSE HANDS DOES EVERYTHING LIE

Is He not the provider or are we all being given rizq by earning our own livelihoods independently of Him. Have we all not seen, being laid off of work, sicknesses causing job loss, being fired for no fault of our own, struggling with money all your life in spite of working real hard (He increases or decreases everyone's rizq as He deems (remember He is Aleem and Hakeem) - Qur'an).

Have we not all seen good marriages and bad marriages.

Have we not seen people who long for kids, and those who get pregnant and miscarry, and ones who have one too many mouths to feed. 

Life of this world is a huge testing ground. We must base our decisions on what is the right thing to do in His eyes, not this security or that security. If someone wants to marry, irrespective of career plans and age (no 21 is not too young, it is past baloogh as per His guidelines - refer to Ayatullah Sistani's guidance mentioned above), they should marry.

Always do what He wants and leave the results to Him, cause whether you do that or not, THE RESULTS ARE IN HIS HANDS AND HIS ALONE, we only choose to make a collection for the hereafter based on our niyyah.

May Allah guide you all and may the owner of original post's sister be granted ample rizq and a fulfilling marriage and a righteous spouse BY Allah, that may all (source of income, life choices and spouse and kids), help her in her journey towards Him. Aameen!

And may He grant all posters here, including myself, assistance to have better eemān and base our life choices on His command and not our own desires. Aameen!   

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10 minutes ago, Guest Allah is Incharge said:

to how a career is a source of security and marriage isn't, and the discussion about children, leave one huge thing being not realized/discussed:

"WHO IS WATCHING OVER US!"

WHO IS RAAZIQ

What a lame argument. Going by this we should all sit at home and wait for the Raaziq to provide everything for us. Women aside, even men don't need a career because Allah will provide to children and their parents.

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On 11/1/2019 at 4:42 AM, starlight said:

Career/education is reliable,marriage and spouse aren't. Career will pay the bills, marriage might or might not. Career will give you stability and independence in life(the good independence) marriage might or might not. Career will keep you fed and clothed,marriage might or might not.Spouse might abandon you,career won't. So pick what has better chances of helping you through life.

Okay, bring on the disagrees.:dry:

Here it comes.

I can't say I agree because of the heavy emphasis that Islam has placed on marriage. In this day and age it is one of the responsibilities which we neglect the most. I doubt that there has ever been a time in the history of Muslims that so many muslimeen remain unmarried for so many of their adult years. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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Guest Allah is Incharge
24 minutes ago, starlight said:

What a lame argument. Going by this we should all sit at home and wait for the Raaziq to provide everything for us. Women aside, even men don't need a career because Allah will provide to children

This is not what I meant. I meant this: Know that when you work that is a "sabab" and He is "Musabbab ul asbaab", if He doesn't will it none would get even a morsel. But you must work and work hard cause He has commanded all to work.

This is a long discussion about Tawakkal Vs His command to work and provide for those for whom He has made you Kafeel. Please seek guidance about that from the rep of your marja in your area of residence.

Wassalam.

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2 hours ago, Guest Allah is Incharge said:

But before any action/decision one must always ask "what is it that my Allah expects of me", that is, "His will vs my will should be given preference", cause Allah knows best and He is in charge of all things (so you won't fall into trouble in matters of the world as well when you follow His guidance).

This is pretty much an empty argument. Both are good and halal things and we humans have the free will to choose. We don't have specific guidance on each decision we need to make in life. 

Edited by notme

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

In this day and age it is one of the responsibilities which we neglect the most

I agree. Neglected not just in terms of not marrying  but also in what comes after you are married which means divorce rate is higher than it has ever been in history. I am not blaming men solely for the divorce, it takes two to make a marriage work. Iyou look at how many fathers neglect the responsibilities of their children after divorce the number iso alarmingly high. And how many men continue to fulfill their Islamic obligations during iddah? -zero. All of this leads me to the conclusion that unfortunately in this day and age career probably is a more reliable life support than marriage. This isn't good or commendable but this is how it is. 

2 hours ago, Guest Allah is Incharge said:

This is a long discussion about Tawakkal Vs His command to work and provide for those for whom He has made you Kafeel

And this is not what the discussion is about. Women should give importance to their careers because it could be essential for her survival some day. 

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

I agree. Neglected not just in terms of not marrying  but also in what comes after you are married which means divorce rate is higher than it has ever been in history. I am not blaming men solely for the divorce, it takes two to make a marriage work. Iyou look at how many fathers neglect the responsibilities of their children after divorce the number iso alarmingly high. And how many men continue to fulfill their Islamic obligations during iddah? -zero. All of this leads me to the conclusion that unfortunately in this day and age career probably is a more reliable life support than marriage. This isn't good or commendable but this is how it is. 

I agree with everything except your conclusion which is basically this: we have failed to follow Islamic guidelines in our marriages so let's stop giving it the priority it is supposed to have. 

It's almost like we're giving up on a part of religion altogether (naudhubillah) and replacing it with worldly goals.

Wallahu a'lam

Edited by Mahdavist

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13 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I agree with everything except your conclusion which is basically this: we have failed to follow Islamic guidelines in our marriages so let's stop giving it the priority it is supposed to have. 

It's almost like we're giving up on a part of religion altogether (naudhubillah) and replacing it with worldly goals.

Wallahu a'lam

How does having a career prevent one from marriage? 

Or does a married woman only have value if she is a housewife? 

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Just now, notme said:

How does having a career prevent one from marriage? 

Or does a married woman only have value if she is a housewife? 

It doesn't. My comment was about the mindset that opposes the two roles, and more specifically the view that career comes first. 

Wallahu a'lam

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Since men have to probide for the household it is only rational if they are financially able to provide for their spouses for them to marry.

According to hadeeths of our Imams it is better for women to marry earlier which is why it is preferrable if they marry before focusing on careers. Since careers/higher education take a while so by the time they’re well into their education/careers they’re older and it’ll be harder to find a spouse. That’s just my opinion you can have differences.

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4 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

It doesn't. My comment was about the mindset that opposes the two roles, and more specifically the view that career comes first. 

Wallahu a'lam

Then I think we are in agreement. Thanks for clarifying. 

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3 minutes ago, Hajji Kadhim said:

According to hadeeths of our Imams it is better for women to marry earlier

But isn't it better, according to hadith, for everyone who has desire for intimacy to marry? In other words, shouldn't almost everyone marry early? Or are men not supposed to have physical desires until they are established in their careers? 

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