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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Salaam,

There is a saying: "it's nice to be important, but its more important to be nice",

I would LOVE to see this topic a high priority one on this forum, especially for the shiachat Team members, who carry the biggest responsibility in maintaining a good atmosphere of free speech and free thought on this forum. Of course, this topic is even more important for all of us at home with our families in real life, as well as outside in the real world with friends and strangers.

Allah is al Lateef, al Kareem, and the key words here are

Polite

Sensitive

Gentle

Kind

I don't know how to turn this topic into a thread that benefits all good-intentioned people on this thread, but it's a try.

There are countless hadiths and quranic texts that talk about this - including some that I compiled Here, so maybe you can contribute to this.

There is just one problem with this. That maybe sometimes some people might think that something hurtful they said is ok. Is this because they are raised in families that have a desensitized hurtful social discourse as the norm? Like Yazid probably wasnt very nice to his mother, so for him he wouldn't understand if somebody tells him to be nice. (He wouldn't know what nice is to start with)

I personally believe that being kind - or tayeb in Arabic - is the key for entering the promised gardens. I also believe that one reason why kind people are stronger fighters is because they store all the negativity of others without reciprocating each time. They don't express negativity, even when their whims make them feel like it. So when the rare occasion comes for a real legitimate fight, then they just have much more battery life in their emotional inner storage facilities. While the haters go around hating and wasting, the lovers go around storing and building.

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20 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

a good atmosphere of free speech and free thought on this forum

Well that's the problem isn't it?

There is no one way bet in life and it's offering people free speech/free thought that often ends up not being nice to those at the receiving end of the free speech.

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21 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Allah is al Lateef, al Kareem, and the key words here are

Polite

Sensitive

Gentle

Kind

al-Lateef, Kind is a revealed attribute

al-Kareem, Knows, is a revealed attribute

But, where do you get Polite, Sensitive and Gentle from?

And how do you get "key words", an addition to what is revealed?

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On 10/30/2019 at 8:49 AM, Haji 2003 said:

Well that's the problem isn't it?

There is no one way bet in life and it's offering people free speech/free thought that often ends up not being nice to those at the receiving end of the free speech.

There is no way to reach perfection in any thing for us humans, but at least people can agree in principle that for instance "kilma tayiba" as per Qur'an, will have success, while "kilma khabeetha" will be a failure. Allah orders us several times to be kind and nice. Also the way/sunnah of the Prophet is clear in this aspect. 

Free speech in my opinion is people being able to respectfully say their opinions, regardless of what they are. One can respectfully disagree.

Insults and arrogant "khabeeth" comments should not be accepts by no matter whom. The consequences of disrespect is that it will prevent people who have opinions other than the insulting people from expressing their options. It will create a polarisation of people with like minds, and develop a culture of khabasa (opposite of kindness/purity) where people forget that it is wrong to disrespect each other.

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On 10/30/2019 at 2:54 AM, hasanhh said:

al-Lateef, Kind is a revealed attribute

al-Kareem, Knows, is a revealed attribute

But, where do you get Polite, Sensitive and Gentle from?

And how do you get "key words", an addition to what is revealed?

Karama can also mean nobility for instance. (Politeness, gentleness, sensitivity resonate with karama and nobility as well - in my opinion) Each name of God has many ways of describing them, and Allah is always greater than any of the descriptions but we try :) Allahu Akbar = Allah He is Bigger .. bigger/greater than any ddescription.

Those key words are only some of the key words I'd like to inject in this forum.

Others include Rahma (al Rahman al Raheem) 

Compassion

Forgiveness 

Mercy 

(Al 3alim, al Hakeen, al 3adl)

Understanding

Wise 

Just/fair

It is only fair to treat people with respect. Especially more senior members of this forum should be the last to initiate mean comments. That is wise, and understanding of the people in front of them.

The wise thing to do is make everybody, including shy and weak people, safe to express their opinions without worry of prejudiced and biased rude reactions.

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On 10/30/2019 at 5:33 AM, Reza said:

“Being nice” = Approve of everything I say X , don’t challenge me too hard X , give all viewpoints equal validity and consideration , no matter the evidence YES

Calls to civility can be either liberating or suppressive in nature, depending on how and who makes the call. YES

I'll give you an example:

Bob believes that we live on a pink unicorn and that he is a cat from Mars. Tom does not agree.

Option 1:

TOM: "you're stupid, silly, and not a Muslim"

Option 2:

TOM: "sorry if I offend you, but in my humble opinion the belief (notice he is talking about the belief and not Bob) is lacking validity. Can you explain to me exactly how you reached these conclusions? 

You see, the above are exaggerated examples how the same sentiment can be expressed in a mean and less mean way. The first way is a one-way road and very insulting. The second option opens up free dialogue, and not only that. The little girl watching this conversation who was just celebrating Halloween yesterday and also heard about the pink unicorn theory might jump in without being afraid of being labelled or verbally abused for her opinion.

Get my point?

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Assalamallikum,

1] 

On 11/1/2019 at 4:21 AM, 313 Seeker said:

and Allah is always greater than any of the descriptions but we try :) Allahu Akbar = Allah He is Bigger .. bigger/greater than any ddescription.

But this does not give any of us to add to what is revealed. This is not a permission statement.

2]

On 11/1/2019 at 4:21 AM, 313 Seeker said:

Especially more senior members of this forum should be the last to initiate mean comments.

But l am just an 'old meanie'.   :D

[A 50s-60s pop phrase.]

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

(notice he is talking about the belief and not Bob)

If the Bob is intelligent enough, he would understand from the statement that he & his belief both are invalid. 

But I am overall agreed with you on being nice with others as well as with our self too. 

Edited by Logic1234

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Just now, Logic1234 said:

If the Bob is intelligent enough, he would understand from the statement that he & his belief both are invalid. 

Well chances are higher that Bob will learn from Tom, if Tom keeps good, respectful, noble, kind, considerate, sensitive, and graceful manners.

When we are rude via personal negative attacks, we close to doors of communication and possible growth via the communication.

That is the reason why Imam Ali is recorded in Nahjul Balgha as urging his soldiers not to insult the people who they were about to kill in the name of God. It is better to talk decently, because in this way we open a bridge for people to cross to our opinions, or for us to cross to theirs, if they end up being true.

For people with strong and solid beliefs, there is no need to be disrespectful. The truth is strong enough.

The Truth / Al Haqq .. another name of God. And by truth I mean the intention of sticking to the Truth. Even if it isn't. None of us know the full truth of everything, but we try. Through decent communication via the rules of Allah, the Prophet, and in this case the rules of this forum - will give the chance to get everyone closer to the truth. Hatred and rudeness actually repels people, just like the attitude of wahabis repel people from the truth of Islam. Just like the image of Shia mutilating themselves repels people from the ahl bayt. Decency and good manners dear ladies and gentlemen. Humble and being aware of our shortcomings.

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Masha Allah whoever wrote the site guidelines agreed with this thread ..

I made some parts bold ..

Quote
  1. No swear words, unmannered replies or racist comments, especially when directed at other members. A warning followed by a temporary ban shall be met. If a member repeats their offensive or racist language, a permanent ban will take place. No excuses.
  2. We encourage members to be courteous to others, and treat fellow members the way they wish to be treated. Intelligent discourse and freedom of expression is encouraged, as long as it is exercised with responsibility. Insults made against other members on this board are not tolerated, even those made via PM. Warnings will be issued to offending members.

Points #4, 5

Source

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

It is only fair to treat people with respect.

I think this "only" needs a review. Some times it becomes the very need to the situation to speak the truth whether that person like it or not or whether he understand it as personal insult. Lets take a look on the divine words now:

7:176) فَمَثَلُهُ كَمَثَلِ الْكَلْبِ إِن تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْهِ يَلْهَثْ أَوْ تَتْرُكْهُ يَلْهَث ذَّلِكَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِآيَاتِنَا
so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our communications

7:179) أُوْلَـئِكَ كَالأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَافِلُونَ
 they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

62:5) مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُوا التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ الْحِمَارِ يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَارًا 
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books,
 

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@Logic1234 if we say the truth, or deal with cattle, dogs or animals, it is best for us and them to do so with respect.

Example:

Respectful way of disagreeing about the color of the sky:

Disrespectful: "you are stupid and ignorant! The sky isn't pink, its blue!"

Respectful: "I see the sky as blue. In my opinion what you see is wrong."

Hope you understand it.

Edited by 313 Seeker

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2 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

@Logic1234 if we say the truth, or deal with cattle, dogs or animals, it is best for us and them to do so with respect.

Example:

Respectful way of disagreeing about the color of the sky:

Disrespectful: "you are stupid and ignorant! The sky isn't pink, its blue!"

Respectful: "I see the sky as blue. In my opinion what you see is wrong."

Hope you understand it.

Thank you brother for this analogy. I actually totally understood your point and agreed with you from the beginning. 

ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ

I was talking with reference to divine words quoted in previous post, they are the truth, but what the person would have thought for whom these verses were revealed! Perhaps they found these divine words insulting. 

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2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Karama can also mean nobility for instance. (Politeness, gentleness, sensitivity resonate with karama and nobility as well - in my opinion)

"my opinion" is where you start to do wrong.

kaf ra mim the tri-literal root is rendered "noble" in noun form and "to honor" in verb form. The only real exception is in Ayat 56:44.

You self-resonated with three inappropriate words.

See what l mean about not interjecting impulses and wishes?

Edited by hasanhh
grammar

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39 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Thank you brother for this analogy. I actually totally understood your point and agreed with you from the beginning. 

ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ

I was talking with reference to divine words quoted in previous post, they are the truth, but what the person would have thought for whom these verses were revealed! Perhaps they found these divine words insulting. 

Well thank God brother those verse are not specific to people. At the same time this verse can be applied to all of us. I can think of several occasions where I personally was blind deaf and dumb like an animal (to higher thoughts), before God guided me to what I think is right. I've also been guilty of screaming like a donkey at least a million times in my childhood. Also my intellect has acted like a barren land where everything is dead, until reading a book that acted as a watering cloud of wisdom, which enlivened my mind and understanding. Those verses in my opinion are all to help each and every one of us become better people. Even the hell fire verses can be metaphorical for mental punishments of ignorance on Earth (in this life), while at the same time also being literal in the sense that there is a real physical hell somewhere waiting for us to cross, and hopefully cross safely over.

Thanks for your contribution brother 

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45 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

"my opinion" is where you start to do wrong.

kaf ra mim the tri-literal root is rendered "noble" in noun form and "to honor" in verb form. The only real exception is in Ayat 56:44.

You self-resonated with three inappropriate words.

See what l mean about not interjecting impulses and wishes?

Everything we discuss is opinions. What you just posted is also an opinion. In Islam we are encouraged to stick to and refer to the opinions expressed by Allah and the Prophet as a guideline. So if my opinion is in line with theirs, then saying "my opinion" isn't wrong. Even if you disagree, then that is simply your opinion against mine. Get it?

So you say your opinion based on your research that karama can be related to nobility and honor? I don't see how that contradicts my opinion. Because honorable speech is the opposite of rude and inconsiderate speech. Honor = generosity = nobility . They definitely resonate very closely, wouldn't you say?

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On 11/1/2019 at 7:48 AM, hasanhh said:

No.

Everything l wrote concerning Qur'an is citation.

My criticism of you in where you strayed is opinion with citation.

Actually you made interpretation and your opinions as soon as you claim the connection of certain English words to the original Arabic.

My opinion is the opinion of pretty much every scholar on Earth who claims to interpret the meaning of the word karama. 

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19 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Thank you brother for this analogy. I actually totally understood your point and agreed with you from the beginning. 

ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ

I was talking with reference to divine words quoted in previous post, they are the truth, but what the person would have thought for whom these verses were revealed! Perhaps they found these divine words insulting. 

Salam being nice doesn't mean surrendering to others or total acceptance of false idea of others ,sometimes being nice needs brute force to fix errors of other people even they want to remain in their ignorance & sometimes needs being humble with them but some naive people like as wahabists are taking being hard against faithless people as just killing & beheading them that in wrong interpretation they become merciful with enemies of Islam like as Israel & zionists & become hard against other Muslims like as Shia Muslim & some other naive people are trying to accept wrong interpretation of zionists Israelis about Prophet Muhammad (pbu) as an Bani Israeli Prophet but they can't satisfy zionist until they they leave Islam or become against Islam .

 

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّـهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّـهِ وَرِضْوَانًا ۖ سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ۚ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ ۗ وَعَدَ اللَّـهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا ﴿٢٩﴾

Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, and those who are with him are hard against the faithless and merciful amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in worship], seeking Allah’s grace, and [His] pleasure. Their mark is [visible] on their faces, from the effect of prostration. Such is their description in the Torah and their description in the Evangel. Like a tillage that sends out its shoots and builds them up, and they grow stout and settle on their stalks, impressing the sowers, so that He may enrage the faithless by them. Allah has promised those of them who have faith and do righteous deeds forgiveness and a great reward. (29)

http://tanzil.net/#48:29

لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ النَّاسِ عَدَاوَةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا ۖ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُم مَّوَدَّةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّا نَصَارَىٰ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَانًا وَأَنَّهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ ﴿٨٢﴾

Surely You will find the most hostile of all people towards the faithful to be the Jews and the polytheists, and surely you will find the nearest of them in affection to the faithful to be those who say ‘We are Christians.’ That is because there are priests and monks among them, and because they are not arrogant. (82)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/5:82

وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ ۗ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّـهِ هُوَ الْهُدَىٰ ۗ وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءَهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ ۙ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللَّـهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ ﴿١٢٠﴾

Never will the Jews be pleased with you, nor the Christians, unless you followed their creed. Say, ‘Indeed it is the guidance of Allah which is [true] guidance.’ And should you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you will not have against Allah any guardian or helper. (120)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:120

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam being nice doesn't mean surrendering to others or total acceptance of false idea of others

Waslaam nobody said that 

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, and those who are with him are hard against the faithless

Hard or shudad does not mean rude or impolite. The Prophet was never impolite. One can be strict but still well mannered and nice. Like, one can execute a person, and still treat them with respect by talking in a decent way.

There can be no excuse for ugly low level and low class talk.

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12 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Waslaam nobody said that 

Hard or shudad does not mean rude or impolite. The Prophet was never impolite. One can be strict but still well mannered and nice. Like, one can execute a person, and still treat them with respect by talking in a decent way.

There can be no excuse for ugly low level and low class talk.

I conclude it from your posts becaue you are trying to find a way for being nice with people like as Zionists & Israelis.

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3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I conclude it from your posts becaue you are trying to find a way for being nice with people like as Zionists & Israelis.

Yes nice with everyone.. just as the Prophet was nice even with his enemies. Nice in his manner of speech . He was a noble man, not some low class piece of work 

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22 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Thanks for your contribution brother 

Is that the respectful way of stopping me to further participate :D ? 
 

22 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well thank God brother those verse are not specific to people.

To some extent, I am agreed with you here too. The message is generally for all human beings. But whether the verses quoted were not specific for some people? Lets see the following for instance:

وَاتْلُ عَلَيْهِمْ نَبَأَ الَّذِي آتَيْنَاهُ آيَاتِنَا فَانْسَلَخَ مِنْهَا فَأَتْبَعَهُ الشَّيْطَانُ فَكَانَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ
وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَرَفَعْنَاهُ بِهَا وَلَٰكِنَّهُ أَخْلَدَ إِلَى الْأَرْضِ وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ ۚ فَمَثَلُهُ كَمَثَلِ الْكَلْبِ إِنْ تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْهِ يَلْهَثْ أَوْ تَتْرُكْهُ يَلْهَثْ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا ۚ فَاقْصُصِ الْقَصَصَ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

7:175-176) And recite to them the narrative of him to whom We give Our communications, but he withdraws himself from them, so the Shaitan overtakes him, so he is of those who go astray.  And if We had pleased, We would certainly have exalted him thereby; but he clung to the Earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our communications; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect.

This verse is discussing the case of one specific person, although the message is general in nature & applicable to anyone who behaves like that as mentioned in the end of verse. 

Similar is the case of other verses, 

مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُوا التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ الْحِمَارِ يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَارًا
62:5) The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books,

Here again, we can understand this verse as a warning for every Muslim who learn & recite the Qur'an but don't follow the guidance. But the verse is discussing the case of Jews specifically. 

 

23 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Those verses in my opinion are all to help each and every one of us become better people

I am 100% agreed brother.  

Anyway, we have to be nice in our guftaar (talking), raftaar (speed), in our looking and seerah. 

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4 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Like, one can execute a person, and still treat them with respect by talking in a decent way.

There can be no excuse for ugly low level and low class talk.

This seems like very twisted thinking. What's the point of talking in a nice way if you are going to kill a person? What hurts more? someone saying mean things or someone killing you? I think the person getting killed will prefer if the other person is harsh or abusive, but doesn't kill him. This reminds me of ISIS videos, where they were talking so nicely to the prisoners. Also, they took their prisoners to kill several times, but they would not kill them. That's why when they actually killed a person, he was thinking it is another false alarm. In all the videos posted by them, their victims looked calm and relaxed. It was sad to see those victims, smiling and feeling good with sweet talk, while they didn't know they were going to get killed next moment. To me, it looked like a last sick twisted attempt to mock their victims: "look at this fool, he is smiling and just because we talked nicely with him, he thinks we are his friends. He doesn't know what is going to happen to him in few minutes". 

Killing a person is still zulm and it's much greater zulm than verbally abusing a person. By talking nicely to your victim, you just make yourself feel good, it doesn't count as kindness. Your victim will hate you as much. To him, it doesn't matter whether you talking nicely or harshly to him before killing him. You are his killer, and he doesn't care if you are classy or rude. This is the ideology of Sufis, they are all nice and sweet talk on surface but in reality they are like ISIS. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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3 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Is that the respectful way of stopping me to further participate :D ? 
 

To some extent, I am agreed with you here too. The message is generally for all human beings. But whether the verses quoted were not specific for some people? Lets see the following for instance:

وَاتْلُ عَلَيْهِمْ نَبَأَ الَّذِي آتَيْنَاهُ آيَاتِنَا فَانْسَلَخَ مِنْهَا فَأَتْبَعَهُ الشَّيْطَانُ فَكَانَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ
وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَرَفَعْنَاهُ بِهَا وَلَٰكِنَّهُ أَخْلَدَ إِلَى الْأَرْضِ وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ ۚ فَمَثَلُهُ كَمَثَلِ الْكَلْبِ إِنْ تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْهِ يَلْهَثْ أَوْ تَتْرُكْهُ يَلْهَثْ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا ۚ فَاقْصُصِ الْقَصَصَ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

7:175-176) And recite to them the narrative of him to whom We give Our communications, but he withdraws himself from them, so the Shaitan overtakes him, so he is of those who go astray.  And if We had pleased, We would certainly have exalted him thereby; but he clung to the Earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our communications; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect.

This verse is discussing the case of one specific person, although the message is general in nature & applicable to anyone who behaves like that as mentioned in the end of verse. 

Similar is the case of other verses, 

مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُوا التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ الْحِمَارِ يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَارًا
62:5) The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books,

Here again, we can understand this verse as a warning for every Muslim who learn & recite the Qur'an but don't follow the guidance. But the verse is discussing the case of Jews specifically. 

 

I am 100% agreed brother.  

Anyway, we have to be nice in our guftaar (talking), raftaar (speed), in our looking and seerah. 

Thank you dear brother and may God make you among the most noble of His creations.

Of course I NEVER  would want you to stop contributing. On the contrary, please keep expressing yourself, I much enjoy it. Thank you 

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57 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

Killing a person is still zulm and it's much greater zulm

If we are ordered by Allah to fight in His cause, then it's not about us, our egos or emotions. That is why Imam Ali or the Prophet never was recorded as talking like a low class hooligan or savage on the battlefield, or even at the execution pit.

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On 11/1/2019 at 5:33 AM, 313 Seeker said:

I'll give you an example:

Bob believes that we live on a pink unicorn and that he is a cat from Mars. Tom does not agree.

Option 1:

TOM: "you're stupid, silly, and not a Muslim"

Option 2:

TOM: "sorry if I offend you, but in my humble opinion the belief (notice he is talking about the belief and not Bob) is lacking validity. Can you explain to me exactly how you reached these conclusions? 

 

You see, the above are exaggerated examples how the same sentiment can be expressed in a mean and less mean way. The first way is a one-way road and very insulting. The second option opens up free dialogue, and not only that. The little girl watching this conversation who was just celebrating Halloween yesterday and also heard about the pink unicorn theory might jump in without being afraid of being labelled or verbally abused for her opinion.

Get my point?

Where’s the give and take? Tom has to pander to Bob, but what does Bob give Tom? An insult to his intelligence?

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1 hour ago, Reza said:

Where’s the give and take? Tom has to pander to Bob, but what does Bob give Tom? An insult to his intelligence?

How to deal with people we consider as inferior to us in intelligence? How did Prophet Mohammed deal with them? With utter nobility and good style. Humbly and without offensive comments. (Being considerate of other peoples feelings)

Tom feels that Bob is one hell of a loony and as a result he tells himself and to God:

"Thank God that I know better than him. I'll treat Bob kindly, because he is a poor soul in need of guidance. Maybe I try to guide him and maybe not. Whether I tell him we are not Martian cats on a pink unicorn, I better not act arrogantly. Instead I act mercifully and keep thanking God. (I hope that God accepts my efforts of propagating His Truth)."

Then Tom tells Bob in a humble deep tone: "habibi I personally don't think we live on a pink unicorn, and if you wish I can explain to you why :D " .. "I liked what you said yesterday about cooking Indian food btw .. " 

Tom and Bob became good friends and lived happily ever after with beautiful families that hung out on occasions. God forgave Bob for his ignorance and Tom for his addiction of eating too much punjabi food. They ended up reincarnated into really cool immortal bodies, and made it to Paradise, where Bob found himself very smart and Tom didn't have a big curry belly. It's a happy ending for all of us with politeness, wouldn't you say?

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9 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

It's a happy ending for all of us with politeness, wouldn't you say?

I don’t like virtue signaling and tone policing as a backdoor way of salvaging victory by garnering sympathy as a victim, since the substance of the original arguments fell flat (pun intended), and that’s a dead end, so this new angle is taken. A high degree of sensitivity towards the lightest challenge ensures the “politeness” card can be dealt at whim.

So the conversation degrades to, “well they were mean to me, so the discussion is null and void, and they lose too”.  

Not interested in manipulation disguised as preachy self-righteousness.

Was calling mods “bullies” publicly a form of your politeness? 

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On 10/29/2019 at 3:11 PM, 313 Seeker said:

There are countless hadiths and quranic texts that talk about this - including some that I compiled Here, so maybe you can contribute to this.

I would like to ask you to shed some light on two instances mentioned in history books.

1.

Quote

Thus Amr bin Abde Wudd planted his spear in the ground and began to walk here and there; then recited the following Rajaz:
“My throat has gone bad screaming out to you to send someone to fight me. And I am standing while the stalwarts are full of fear. In such a terrible occasion when all run away; I remain firm. Indeed, valor and forgiveness are the best qualities of a hero.”

The Messenger of Allah (S) said to the Muslims: “Who among you can finish off this dog?” When no one replied, Amirul Momineen ((عليه السلام).) came forward and volunteered to finish him. 

https://www.al-Islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-allamah-Muhammad-Baqir-al-majlisi/battle-khandaq

2.

Quote

When they set out to leave, the men (with al-Hurr) got in between them and the direction they were going in.

May God deprive your mother of you,” said al Husayn, peace be on him, to al-Hurr, “what do you want?” “If any of the Arabs other than you were to say that to me,” retorted al-Hurr, “even though he were in the same situation as you, I would not leave him without mentioning his mother being deprived (of him), whoever he might be. But by God there is no way for me to mention your mother except by (saying) the best things possible.”

 

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