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thuglife

Hilloween is a Pagan Holiday!

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7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Yeah, kind of. lt was more about whose version of early church history.

Just tell everyone to be sure to blame every single thing on the Church in Rome. 

Because it's not like those early Church Councils weren't full of  mostly " Middle Easterns" and North Africans...lol.

 

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On November 3, 2019 at 11:18 AM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Christmas is arguably worse. Santa Claus is pure shirk packaged for kids.

You don't need Santa Claus to celebrate Christmas either.

EDIT: In spite of the fact that I'm being begged by SG NOT to remind you of this:

Gift-giving during Christmas season can happen on several days not necessarily on Christmas Day. In parts of Mexico and other places, the big day is The  Day of the Three Kings on the Feast of Epiphany in January. That's the celebration of the time the wandering astrologers from somewhere east of Palestine visited the child Jesus and his mother and  brought gifts ( many scholarly opinions point to Zoroastrians from Persia, ergo...the reason my Arab SIL doesn't want me to mention it because that would make Iranians some of the first non-Jewish folks to see Jesus and he thinks they have enough swelled heads as it is.)

Edited by LeftCoastMom
To irk my son in law. Sue me.

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On November 3, 2019 at 6:47 PM, hasanhh said:

@Ibn Al-Ja'abi  Were you asking me about Easter? 0n second thought, l think you were.

ln short, when the differnt churchs around the Mediterranean decided it was neceassary to form a comprehensive Church to combat the Mani heretics, they had several problems. One was to compile a uniform bible. The other was what doctrines and such did they need to win over the heretical Maniacs. Two of these l offhand forget and would be viewed as small matters now. The third thing they determined that seperated them from the heretics was the crucifiction story. Nearly three hundred years after Isa's -(عليه السلام). time, they had a lot of conflicting documents -like ten versions of the Gospel of Matthew. All of this had to be sorted out, libraries searched, an so on. They came to the conclusion they had no way of knowing if the story was true, but they did know that while 40% of the heretics believed it, 60% of the chr!stians did. So they chose to use the crucifiction story as a fundamental key element in the new, united Church. This is why the gospels go to such elaborate lengths telling this story -and why the style of Greek writing changes within each gospel.

Well, your version of events is fun, but Christians are a lot more boring than that.
while the idea of Christian leaders scouring libraries and imposing theology on the population might make for a good movie script, historical scholars, secular and religious, would likely not agree with you. 

A four-gospel canon was asserted by Irenaeus 130-202 . Quoting him:: "It is not possible that the gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four-quarters of the Earth in which we live, and four universal winds, while the church is scattered throughout all the world, and the 'pillar and ground' of the church is the gospel and the spirit of life, it is fitting that she should have four pillars breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh ... Therefore the gospels are in accord with these things ... For the living creatures are quadriform and the gospel is quadriform"


, the Muratorian fragment ( 200)shows that there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to what is now the New Testament, which included four gospels and argued against objections to them.


Origen of Alexandria (184/85–253/54), an early scholar involved in the codification of the Biblical canon, had a thorough education both in Christian theology and in pagan philosophy, was familiar with and using a list of Christian books almost identical to what the current canon is.

The early Christians and the early church leaders were quite clear in what they believed. 

Christianity was not a favored religion for a lot of its early history, if you remember. At times it was viciously persecuted.

In spite of that, the early church used several criteria for books to be included early on. Two of these were : authenticity of authorship and/or doctrine  and common  usage in the different early Christian communities.

A great many books were held in common by the communities long before the Council of Hippo met in 393. That and subsequent Councils that followed quickly were the end of a long process, not the beginning.  

And, in spite of the fact that the Latin Church could hardly impose its will on, say, the Eastern churches, the religion still being largely decentralized and centered around the various more powerful cities with Christian communities , the same books ended up being canon there. In fact, the eastern churches might have had the completer version earlier. 

Hope this helps.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

After the year 300 C.C. is the 4th Century until 400 C.C.

Salams,

I'm not sure how to put this more clearly and it seems to be going in circles and missing the point. I understand when the fourth century took place but I was quoting your saying the Church began to unify and fight heresy then, I suppose you were referring to the Council of Nicaea. My point was that this isn't correct. In the middle of the first century there were already attempts to present a unified Church position, quell heresy, and unite around a theology. Paul criticizes factionalism for example in his epistles. And heresiology was very well developed by the second century with people like Irenaeus. So no, this didn't happen for the first time in the fourth century and it wasn't in response to Manichean heretics as you said since Manicheans aren't Christian.

13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l do not have a "point". You know the difference between Mark and the Secret Book of Mark do you not?

The point that you had made and I was responding to was your saying that there were ten different versions of Matthew -- presumably beyond just variations in manuscripts. I had asked for more information because I've never seen this in any of the books I've read about the history of the NT, higher criticism, codicology, etc. Since you haven't cited anything I presume that you were indeed pointless in what you had said. And I'm not sure what's the point of asking me about a Gnostic work.

13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

A significant part of the search engine algorithm is frequency of clicks.

And Brill, Gorgias Press, Degruyter, Hendrickson, Hackett, U of Chicago, Harvard, Oxford, or Cambridge press among others aren't evangelical publishers and these are the academic publishers whose works I read. These publishers also produce the works you'd find in libraries. Thanks anyways for your recommendation.

13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

So how does tradition/transmission and biographies come into this discussion?

That's a great question, I have no idea why you brought it up at all.

13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Correct as far as l can remember. The Syriac manuscript is the oldest, is it not?

No. And the earliest Syriac copies would've been translations from the original Greek copies of the Gospels anyways.

13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

With a life-long hearing impediment, l have done some really "outlandish" misspellings.

Perhaps in one of those thousand books which you own you might've read "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house". Like I said, I personally don't care for it but you can't seriously do that to other people and type so poorly yourself.

13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

When you can't out write me l can understand why you feel defeated

This has been great. Couple of things though, I'll again say how you like to talk about how old you are on the various threads and yet despite your venerable age you stooped pretty low and took a lot of personal shots without provocation, not sure what made you feel that was an appropriate response to wanting to discuss something you'd posted and for asking for citations (something I do with everyone when discussing research). A pity you're like that. And if you're so proud of your library I advise you to read things in it a bit more closely. What you post tends not be good information, whether its definitions of Arabic words or Church history and NT studies like in this thread. 

13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l do not have a "point".

I do agree with this.

wassalam

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1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

 

image.jpeg

When I was a kid, we hated the houses where they handed out Chick Tracts instead of candy. They've gotten better now - the Halloween preachers in our neighborhood give a tract taped to a full-size candy bar.

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What is "pagan" other than those whom Allah sent the Prophets as bearers of good news and warners with the truth. Only they differed in their religions, out of vain desires and envy among themselves. Not unlike the Christians and the Jews and even some Muslims. Then Allah guided those who had faith to the truth of what they differed in, by His will, and Allah guides whomever He wishes to a straight path. In the end Allah will be the judge concerning that about which they used to differ.

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5 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

while the idea of Christian leaders scouring libraries and imposing theology on the population might make for a good movie script, historical scholars, secular and religious, would likely not agree with you. 

The "scouring" part is correct. lsa -(عليه السلام)., like the other Rasulallah, was hated.  As one prof l had said, for the most part Jesus was hated and if you do not remember this then none of early chr!stian history makes any sense. Above, someone mention Polycarp who wrote, in paraphrase, he couldn't write out a grocery list without someone getting ahold of it and messing it up. So after 250+ years, a lot of sorting out had to be done. To refer back to something l wrote above, The Secret Book of Mark was stolen out the library of Alexandria, so the early church had to exclude the defamation verses (2-3 of them) and then use it as The Gospel of Mark so they had a means of combating the sex perverts -(a good thing, op-ed.)

So, pick any part of Matthew, Luke or Acts, then send for information on what Carthage, Alexandia, Ephesus and so on had on it, any letters refering to these passages and any info on who and why soomeone (like a bishop) doubted some of it.

Now somethings were so famous in their own time (and after) that they could not be contorted.without people knowing the speaker was a fraud. Reports of arisen people like "Lazarus", feeding 5,000 (the 4,000 probably another such event), the little girl in  a coma, hezshaytan running around saying "son of g.od", and so on. Most of it is gone, didn't survive. So they were left with, for example, three birth stories. 

6 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Origen of Alexandria (184/85–253/54), an early

He was later declared a heretic, but l forget the 'why'.

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4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I suppose you

Ain't youz following the construct of what l wrote. l haven't referred to the Council of Nic or the Nicean Creed.

4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

In the middle of the first century there were already attempts to present a unified Church position,

No . . . again. You are confusing prosletyzing and local events like the murder of Hypathia (sp?) with a unification conference.

4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I had asked for more information

l wrote last night l didn't find it. Go read for it yourself.

4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

That's a great question, I have no idea why you brought it up at all.

BECAUSE l was acknowleging your use of the big words diraya and rijal.  :book:

4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

. And the earliest

The oldest fragment is Papyrus 52 of John 18:?  Another :book: time.

4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Perhaps in one of those thousand books which you own you might've read "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house". Like I said, I personally don't care for it but you can't seriously do that to other people and type so poorly yourself.

:hahaha:  "Rock and Stone, baby".    . . .And you laugh at a physical disability?

4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

This has been great. Couple of things though, I'll again say how you like to talk about how old you are on the various threads and yet despite your venerable age you stooped pretty low and took a lot of personal shots without provocation, not sure what made you feel that was an appropriate response to wanting to discuss something you'd posted and for asking for citations (something I do with everyone when discussing research). A pity you're like that. And if you're so proud of your library I advise you to read things in it a bit more closely. What you post tends not be good information, whether its definitions of Arabic words or Church history and NT studies like in this thread. 

Would it not have been a lot easier to write: "l Iost the argument." instead of all that?

:thankyou:

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3 hours ago, notme said:

n our neighborhood give a tract taped to a full-size candy bar.

What do you mean by "tract"?

EDIT: What is "baptized" candy?

Edited by hasanhh

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24 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Ain't youz following the construct of what l wrote. l haven'treferred to the Council of Nic or the Nicean Creed.

Then I can only imagine what you're referring to because that was my charitable understanding of that ahistorical statement of yours.

26 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

No . . . again. You are confusing prosletyzing and local events like the murder of Hypathia (sp?) with a unification conference.

That understanding of Hypatia's murder is about 250 years too late coming out of Gibbon. If you read Watts or Wessel, both a bit more up to date and in line with modern research about late antique Egypt, you'll see the underlying problem was a political struggle not a religious one — despite pop culture about her death.

32 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

I wrote last night l didn't find it. Go read for it yourself

I'm talking about when I had originally responded to your post, before any of the hostility and when I was still hoping for a good discussion and before you admitted you were just pulling facts from nowhere.

33 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

BECAUSE l was acknowleging your use of the big words diraya and rijal.  :book:

Neither particularly large but the proper jargon in the field, though I presume your thousand books don't contain information on this. In any case I mentioned it in response to your bringing it up and that it had nothing to do with anything and I can only presume you're as well read on it as you are on everything else we've ever talked about — not very. To quote you:

"What was done in the Fourth Century was a lot like hadith science."

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064390-helloween-is-a-pagan-holiday/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-3250881

36 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

The oldest fragment is Papyrus 52 of John 18:?  Another :book: time.

Once again, if you have any other information I'd love to see a citation or reference. Till then I can only presume it's of similar quality as the rest of the above nonsense.

38 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

:hahaha:  "Rock and Stone, baby".    . . .And you laugh at a physical disability?

No, I'm pointing out if you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones. If you are bad at spelling and grammar then your argument against me shouldn't have been mine but to bring research as I was, not this nonsense you pull out of thin air and vaguely refer to your "thousand books library".

 

 

يا أبا ذر: إذا سألت عن علم لا تعلمه فقل: لا أعلمه تنج من تبعته، ولا تفت الناس بما لا علم لك به تنج من عذاب يوم القيامة

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37 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

What do you mean by "tract"?

Religious pamphlet. Usually the Halloween ones are targeted toward children. 

These are the ones they handed out when I was a kid. The ones my kids have gotten are much less judgey, basically just invitations to such and such church. 

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On November 5, 2019 at 4:37 PM, hasanhh said:

The "scouring" part is correct. lsa -(عليه السلام)., like the other Rasulallah, was hated.  As one prof l had said, for the most part Jesus was hated and if you do not remember this then none of early chr!stian history makes any sense. Above, someone mention Polycarp who wrote, in paraphrase, he couldn't write out a grocery list without someone getting ahold of it and messing it up. So after 250+ years, a lot of sorting out had to be done. To refer back to something l wrote above, The Secret Book of Mark was stolen out the library of Alexandria, so the early church had to exclude the defamation verses (2-3 of them) and then use it as The Gospel of Mark so they had a means of combating the sex perverts -(a good thing, op-ed.)

So, pick any part of Matthew, Luke or Acts, then send for information on what Carthage, Alexandia, Ephesus and so on had on it, any letters refering to these passages and any info on who and why soomeone (like a bishop) doubted some of it.

Now somethings were so famous in their own time (and after) that they could not be contorted.without people knowing the speaker was a fraud. Reports of arisen people like "Lazarus", feeding 5,000 (the 4,000 probably another such event), the little girl in  a coma, hezshaytan running around saying "son of g.od", and so on. Most of it is gone, didn't survive. So they were left with, for example, three birth stories. 

He was later declared a heretic, but l forget the 'why'.

Whether Origen was actually formally declared a heretic due to the writings of some of his followers and a few of his own is unclear. He probably shouldn't have been. He is considered a Church Father even so.

Your " Secret Gospel of Mark",as I recall,  is of disputed authenticity,bends toward Gnosticism, presupposes the already extant gospels  ,and I don't think the verses you are talking about are interpreted that way.

I used these examples to show how the  Christians scriptures were extant early on in collection in the various church communities because that's what we were discussing. 

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On November 5, 2019 at 2:13 PM, LeftCoastMom said:

^ I'm not worried about these. Lol.

No tracts that I can see in grandson's candy. 

Thankfully.

But even the candy has been " baptized"!

On November 5, 2019 at 5:04 PM, hasanhh said:

EDIT: What is "baptized" candy?

It's a joke. Lol. Pretty sure there are going to be some with Bible verses printed on them by next year.

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l have a question.

Who is the orthograohically challenge person that keeps changing the spelling in the title because they do not know how to use a dictionary?

First it was Holloween. Then Helloween. And now, Hulloween.

What is next? Hylloween?

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8 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ I was thinking the same thing.

Left Wingers "think" ?

 

:D

 

:sorry:"l'm sorry . . . well a little . . . Hezshaytan and practicality made me do it."

Edited by hasanhh
Changed leftie to left wing

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

This is a clear example of Liberal Hysteria: Not thinking before they expound.

Now this is very insensitive towards Cub Scouts.  Shame ...Shame

:hahaha:nth power

:grin:

Oh, I thought about it.

you don't want to see the memes I decided NOT to use.

:D

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4 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

@notme....that Admin is going to run out of vowels shortly.

We haven't seen y and they can be doubled or tripled, eg "hooloween"

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10 minutes ago, notme said:
17 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

that Admin is going to run out of vowels shortly.

We haven't seen y and they can be doubled or tripled, eg "hooloween"

Ahhh, he will start using a variety of consonants, exempli gratia, wolloween, shalloween, belloween, . . . 

and in other forms such as "heloween' -a spooky helocopter ride

Edited by hasanhh

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3 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

MashaAllah, may Allah grant you a long life of His servitude, and grant you husn al khatimah indal mawt.

Hey, you forgot MAN's servitude.

 

Go ahead Starlight, l am going for three. :grin:

Edited by hasanhh

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