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In the Name of God بسم الله

Pakistani Man Sentenced to 5 Years for "Blasphemy Against Sahaba"

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From the Pakistan penal code:

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295-A.  Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.--Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings, of any class of the citizens of Pakistan, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to [Ten] years, or with fine or with both.

Its a law that is used as shield by the Shia as well and protects our alams, ziyarats from defilement of yazidis. That said, in Pakistan each law can be used or abused and takes effort and money and influence as there is much corruption indeed while legal awareness among people is usually nill until its too late and that is why lawyers here are the biggest thugs and crooks. Too bad for that guy, but he should have known better. He could also have followed the mujtahids to have the decency not to hurt the feelings of others. Hurting others is not a part of "freedom of speech" here. This could have been easily avoided.

Yes we Shia have our issues, yes the law and the state has its issues, yes people here can and do often vanish indefinitely but only after they are found involved in crimes and not otherwise. This disappearance thing is most common in and around Karachi, the most attractive area for all criminals in the country. It is sought by so-called Pakistani Taliban (TTP) after the MQM was broken and a vacuum appeared. They ransom industrialists and collect protection money from shopkeepers for instance and make incomparably more than any criminals elsewhere. Criminals and murderers from across the country seek employment there. Actually over there all the hardened criminals when identified are just taken to a river or water body and disposed of. Our judicial system is weak and worthless enough for law enforcement departments and the establishment to resort to that.

In case of the disappeared Shia, their hit and run on a deobandi cleric in Karachi failed (this happened some months earlier and I was following the whole thing and If I recall correctly it was even discussed here on ShiaChat) and there were a few deaths and these people were found to have foreign links as well as involvement in such serious crime, and so they were taken away. However the usual Shia like myself or others have not a shred to worry about.

Just being honest.

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On 10/23/2019 at 10:00 AM, Jaabir said:

It's quite clear that Shi'as in Pakistan are not given the freedoms that others enjoy and it's disappointing to see the number of Pakistani Shi'as go out of their way to defend the same regime that oppresses them. Apparently Imran Khan is a saviour of some sort but still won't allow minorities to practice freedom of speech.

A few examples of what Shi'as in Pakistan deal with not counting the government-facilitated bombings and assassinations:

Salam insulting Sahaba & breaking law is not freedom of speech anyway Imran Khan is very better person than rest of previous Pakistani PMs but in Pakistan Shias still have a long way to reach to a good position but after electing Imran Khan their situation becomes a little better but Shia must avoid insulting Sahaba & breaking rules & use freedom of Speech to gain their right not misusing it by insulting others under influence of some infamous cults that are causing rift between Shias & Sunnis in Pakistan & other Muslims countries also all of your news sources are infamous for anti Islam specially anti Shia agenda that are seeking for a war between Pakistan & India that few days ago another same scenario happened in Bangladesh that it said from hacked account of an Indian  man in Facebook same insulting spread there that caused a clash between Muslims & Bangladesh security forces that I think something is fishy here also both Iraq & Lebanon protest is supporting by Facebook services like as Whatsapp & it's messenger also The Green Party of Iran that did all of it's anti Iranian activity through Facebook 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Iran

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam insulting Sahaba & breaking law is not freedom of speech anyway Imran Khan is very better person than rest of previous Pakistani PMs but in Pakistan Shias still have a long way to reach to a good position but after electing Imran Khan their situation becomes a little better but Shia must avoid insulting Sahaba & breaking rules & use freedom of Speech to gain their right not misusing it by insulting others under influence of some infamous cults that are causing rift between Shias & Sunnis in Pakistan & other Muslims countries also all of your news sources are infamous for anti Islam specially anti Shia agenda that are seeking for a war between Pakistan & India that few days ago another same scenario happened in Bangladesh that it said from hacked account of an Indian  man in Facebook same insulting spread there that caused a clash between Muslims & Bangladesh security forces that I think something is fishy here also both Iraq & Lebanon protest is supporting by Facebook services like as Whatsapp & it's messenger also The Green Party of Iran that did all of it's anti Iranian activity through Facebook

Walaykum salam,

We don't know what the person said exactly for him to get arrested and handed a five year sentence, but if he said something that is mentioned in our kutub there should be no problem in sharing it. If you don't agree with 'insulting' the Sahaba, then maybe those companions shouldn't have done those deeds in the first place. There's no need to remind everyone that Tabarra from the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt is part of our Furu` al-deen. If the person who was sentenced said it in an academic discussion/debate then that's even more exposing of the Pak government's oppression.

On 10/23/2019 at 6:36 AM, Darth Vader said:

From the Pakistan penal code:

Is this law exclusively for Shi'as to follow? Where are the news reports of the jail terms handed to Pakistani Muslims who insult Pakistani Christian or Hindu beliefs? I've seen several instances where Hindu religious beliefs are mocked or ridiculed, or Christian beliefs are insulted but masked as honest debate, but all I've heard of is Christians being handed death sentences and fleeing the country or Shi'as being handed lengthy jail terms or kidnapped. Where are then sentences for those who call Shi'a kafir in Pakistan? Is this not "outraging the religious feelings" according to the law you shared?

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3 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

Is this law exclusively for Shi'as to follow? Where are the news reports of the jail terms handed to Pakistani Muslims who insult Pakistani Christian or Hindu beliefs? I've seen several instances where Hindu religious beliefs are mocked or ridiculed, or Christian beliefs are insulted but masked as honest debate, but all I've heard of is Christians being handed death sentences and fleeing the country or Shi'as being handed lengthy jail terms or kidnapped. Where are then sentences for those who call Shi'a kafir in Pakistan? Is this not "outraging the religious feelings" according to the law you shared?

You will not find any if you do not take the time to find out.

Man sentenced to 10 years in jail for collecting funds for TTP

Four more 'hardcore TTP terrorists' hanged

Maulana Sami Ul-Haq, 'Father Of The Taliban,' Stabbed To Death

Video: Terrorist admits plot to spark sectarian violence during Ashura procession

Things are getting better than before. Instead of complaining, if the Shias step forward and take part in and help the government fixing things things will have the potential to become dramatically better. For the first time ever we have better individuals in the government having Shia, pro-Shia or non-Takfiri faiths while the sectarian elements are on the run. The status quo is no more and the old western puppets are in deep trouble.

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8 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

We don't know what the person said exactly for him to get arrested and handed a five year sentence, but if he said something that is mentioned in our kutub there should be no problem in sharing it. If you don't agree with 'insulting' the Sahaba, then maybe those companions shouldn't have done those deeds in the first place. There's no need to remind everyone that Tabarra from the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt is part of our Furu` al-deen. If the person who was sentenced said it in an academic discussion/debate then that's even more exposing of the Pak government's oppression.

all of us know who are insulted & everything in our books are not sacred or true that must examines by Qur'an & teaching of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) that because of that we don't call our books as Sahih the Tabara and insulting sahaba are two different matters also Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he doesn't like that Shias  say insults but we can condemn our enemy with fair & rational word and such post in social media like as Facebook  most of times are short text that are full of insuts & I don't see or hear that someone uses a post for academic discussion /Debate in Facebook but in Lnkedin it's possible.

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On 10/23/2019 at 11:30 AM, Jaabir said:

I'm curious to hear what all the nationalist Pakistani Shi'as have to say about this one: https://www.dawn.com/news/1511436

What's ridiculous about this is that the man was charged with "posting blasphemous material against the Sahaba" as if saying anything about the fallible Sahaba is tantamount to attacking Allah. Is this the Pakistan Imran Khan promised?

It's quite clear that Shi'as in Pakistan are not given the freedoms that others enjoy and it's disappointing to see the number of Pakistani Shi'as go out of their way to defend the same regime that oppresses them. Apparently Imran Khan is a saviour of some sort but still won't allow minorities to practice freedom of speech.

A few examples of what Shi'as in Pakistan deal with not counting the government-facilitated bombings and assassinations:

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/Pakistan-sentences-man-to-death-for-blasphemy-on-facebook-982229-2017-06-12

https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-Pakistani-shiites-disappearing/a-49524026

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-Asia-44280552

 

This needs to be put into perspective. I can see how a few media reports would give an inaccurate picture when the real situation on the ground is quite different, as is usually the case with media reports of this kind, especially from foreign outlets.

As brother @Darth Vader mentioned the laws against insulting and vilifying any religion and their sacred personalities cuts both ways. The same law that bans cursing the revered figures of Sunnism also protects Shia religious symbols and personalities. There have been numerous cases of sectarian anti-Shia tracts banned or confiscated over the decades as there have been of anti-Sunni books getting banned. This isn't a Shia-Sunni issue or even a Muslim-non issue. Under this law Sunnis have been prosecuted for insulting Hindu religious figures and so on. One can argue on a liberal basis that all such laws are anachronistic and undemocratic and should be done away with, but hey, this is Pakistan not France.

A Muslim shopkeeper booked for blasphemy against insulting Hindu religious symbols.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1126404/shopkeeper-charged-blasphemy-selling-shoes-Hindu-symbol/

As for Shia "missing persons," this is part of the bigger problem involving enforced disappearance of individuals who are suspected of involvement in shady activities (terrorism, anti-state, foreign funding for sectarian activities etc) but for which there isn't enough evidence to prosecute them in a court of law. Too many genuine cases of dangerous terrorists have been dropped and they walked free because of "lack of evidence." A vast majority of disappeared people aren't Shia. There have been Shia militants who have responded to anti-Shia groups in kind and targeted them since the 1990s. 

More recently politics and sectarianism have overlapped and Shias in Karachi who had political influence under MQM have targeted Wahhabis as well, which has also given another layer to the conflict, of ethnic conflict. MQM Shias are muhajirs (of Indian origin) whereas many Wahhabi extremist in Karachi are Pashtuns, and the two groups have been at loggerheads in Karachi during the first half of the current decade until the military cleaned the house and broke their backs. Whether one likes Pak's military or not, the latest operation in Karachi was done impartially and methodically, not against one sectarian and/or ethnic group but against all trouble-makers across the board. This is where some Shias got picked up, rightly or wrongly. Some came back, others are still missing. The state does not bother ordinary Shias, or even religiously and/or politically active Shias if there isn't anything against them.

With respect to insulting the Sahaba, it's a real thing. We are not talking about tabarra or even criticism of the revered Sunnis figures done diplomatically, which happens all the time and isn't prosecuted, but outright abuse and cursing. There are plenty of hyper Shias who drop all sense of propriety and common sense and say absolutely demeaning and hateful things against the figures revered by Sunnis. I can pretty much imagine what that guy must have written on FB because I get such forward messages on Shia groups all the time. Of course the Sunnis won't tolerate it and demand action.

 

Edited by Marbles
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Absuing and Cursing for no reason, is culture here, to be honest.
people start talking with abuse. and they enjoy it.
so it is bound to happen in a aociety like this.
also people intenionally or intentially are akhbari there (majority)
and they also abuse Marjas. 
its actually culture

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4 hours ago, Marbles said:

The state does not bother ordinary Shias, or even religiously and/or politically active Shias if there isn't anything against them.

On the other hand, the state goes a long way in accommodating Shia presence. Nothing gets state machinery moving as azadari does in Muharram. And its not just because of Shia presence in the upper circles of power, but because everyone recognizes the damaging potential a minority so scattered presents.

If there is anything Pakistan's establishment is afraid of, it is the Shia-Sunni fault-line.

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In theory the Shia shouldn't even need a law against being abusive or insulting, the akhlaq of our madhab is the best guideline. 

For those who seem to be confusing this with 'tabarrah', the definition is to distance oneself from the opponents of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), His Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). There is nothing in there about abusing or insulting. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 10/23/2019 at 2:30 AM, Jaabir said:

I'm curious to hear what all the nationalist Pakistani Shi'as have to say about this one: https://www.dawn.com/news/1511436

What's ridiculous about this is that the man was charged with "posting blasphemous material against the Sahaba" as if saying anything about the fallible Sahaba is tantamount to attacking Allah. Is this the Pakistan Imran Khan promised?

It's quite clear that Shi'as in Pakistan are not given the freedoms that others enjoy and it's disappointing to see the number of Pakistani Shi'as go out of their way to defend the same regime that oppresses them. Apparently Imran Khan is a saviour of some sort but still won't allow minorities to practice freedom of speech.

A few examples of what Shi'as in Pakistan deal with not counting the government-facilitated bombings and assassinations:

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/Pakistan-sentences-man-to-death-for-blasphemy-on-facebook-982229-2017-06-12

https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-Pakistani-shiites-disappearing/a-49524026

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-Asia-44280552

 

I am a proud Pakistani Shia and almost all Pakistani Shias are proud Pakistani Shias first of all we call out our government when they are wrong we protest against our government when our government is wrong, but when our government do good we back them so I don't know what are you talking about.we don't worship Imran Khan blindly like some Indian Shias do to their Hindu Leader modi who massacred Gujrati Muslims and killing and oppressing Kashmiri Muslims. We oppose Imran khan when we have to and we support him when we know he is on rite.

And our Jahil Zakireen Openly Curse Umar Abu Bakr which I think is wrong to do it openly... I am against it because it disrupt the peace between Shia Sunni living side by side in neighbourhoods and Shia Sunni kids studying together in schools colleges universities  ,its wrong its like starting a war with them instead of living with them peacefully. so that guy was wrong in doing that there was no need to openly curse them unless you want to disrupt the peace with them.you can have ilmi debate or discussion

and I don't know if you are one of those Pakistani hating Indian Shia who defend their Hindu Modi Oppressing Country but if you are then go out Curse Hindu Gods openly in Hindu majority Areas and Eat beef there and also record yourself doing all that and put it out on the internet you'll find out what will happen to you very quickly.

Bahraini Government are Oppressing Bahraini Shias ,Saddam use to Oppress Iraqi Shias ,should they hate their nationality and countries for that? 

Oppression or problems like these happens in every country(Muslim or non-Muslim) with every Shia non Shia Muslims but that doesn't mean we hate our country or our nationality

your propaganda will fail miserably if you want Pakistani Shias to hate Pakistan because we don't we love Pakistan we will gave our life for Pakistan ,my Cousin was a Pak army soldier he is a Shaheed he lost his life on the Afghan Pakistan border and Our Entire Shia Pakistani Family is proud of it.

 

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5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't see why any Shia would be a nationalist of any country, regardless of whether it is India, Pakistan, Iran or any other country in the world. These borders are man made, none of these countries or their governments will save you in your grave or intercede for you on the day of judgement. 

Our allegiance is to the Imam of our time (عليه السلام).

Wallahu a'lam 

Perhaps because of the often quoted hadith that حب الوطن من الإيمان

 I.e patriotism/love for your country/"nationalism" is (from/a sign of?) faith

Edited by habib e najjaar
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45 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Perhaps because of the often quoted hadith that حب الوطن من الإيمان

 I.e patriotism/love for your country/"nationalism" is (from/a sign of?) faith

There are a few points to mention here (without commenting on the authenticity of the narration)

-patriotism and nationalism are different. The former is to love your country (hubb ul watn) while the latter is to consider it superior to others ('asabiyyah)

-I would imagine piety lies in the aspect of being a valuable and proactive citizen who helps ones neighbours and society, rather than the aspect of merely waving flags, chanting slogans and zealously protecting anything and everything linked to a country defined by imperialist developed borders regardless of whether its right or wrong.

Wallahu a'lam 

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4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

There are a few points to mention here (without commenting on the authenticity of the narration)

-patriotism and nationalism are different. The former is to love your country (hubb ul watn) while the latter is to consider it superior to others ('asabiyyah)

-I would imagine piety lies in the aspect of being a valuable and proactive citizen who helps ones neighbours and society, rather than the aspect of merely waving flags, chanting slogans and zealously protecting anything and everything linked to a country defined by imperialist developed borders regardless of whether its right or wrong.

Wallahu a'lam 

Agreed, I mentioned the hadith as among the "causes" so to speak of misguided patriotism and by extenstion nationalism.

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They are trending shia kafir and other such nonsense on twitter. The bookshops are getting raided for possession of books containing Ziarat e Ashura. It appears like a coordinated attack on Shias by this govt.  

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29 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

I truly hate reviving an almost year-old thread. I've been on and off of SC for several years now sometimes logging in after several months. Not sure if I'm breaking any SC rules and apologies if it is, but I did want to add to my point with additional relevant news. 

A brother in Karachi, Pakistan, has apparently been arrested for reciting Ziyarat al-Ashura on a TV station which was relayed live. The recitation was so outrageous to some in Pakistan that even PM Imran Khan tweeted it and mentioned how he will act harshly with anyone peddling sectarianism. Brother Taqi Jaffer is being portrayed as the offender, for sending la`nah on Mu`awiyah and Abi Sufyan (which is in the text of the Ziyarat). I only read about this on social media today.

It's extremely disheartening to see the amount of blind support Pakistan gets from its Shi'a population even as it oppresses them. Prior to this instance, it was mainly veiled oppression. Now that a Shi'a can get arrested even for reciting a religious text it's become so much more blatantly obvious. The fact that a major portion of Imran Khan's supporters are Shi'a is even more troubling. Reminiscent of the Shi'a Ba'athists that were such staunch supporters of Saddam that they'd terrorize their own people, then lament for Imam Hussain afterwards. The main problem I find in them is their priority to serve the country over their madhhab.

I don't agree with this new trend that is gaining traction in Pakistan. Recently, the Punjab assembly passed the Tahaffuz Bunyad-e-Islam bill, which is so ridiculous. It was introduced by Sipahe Sahabah MPP Mu'awiyah Tariq (s/o Maulana Azam Tariq), and passed almost unanimously with the full backing of PML-Q speaker of the house, Ch. Perwez Elahi. According to this absurd piece of legislation, Muslims are required to call Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" whenever his name is spoken or written! From which Shari'ah have they derived such a law?

I am totally against all blasphemy laws, having been a victim of it myself when I was recently in Pakistan (I was charged with 295-A and 298-C of the PPC, but alhamdulillah I got bail and am now back in Canada).

While I was in Adiala Jail, housed with the blasphemy cases, there were three Shi'ah there who were all being charged with offenses of blasphemy against the Sahabah رضى الله عنهم. All three essentially were guilty of cursing Khulafa ar-Rashidin or Mu'awiyah on Facebook. The one who was charged with cursing Khulafa ar-Rashidin رضى الله عنهم on Facebook has been languishing in jail for almost five or six years (his name is Hamid Ali), his trial is still ongoing but recently was being expedited until the Covid-19 crisis hit. The other two have been there for little over a year, one of them (Shaukat) was working at a medicine dispensary for the Army, he told me his bail application was rejected by the Supreme Court. The other (Syed Ali Abbas) is a young man in his early 20s. All three are UTPs (under trial prisoners). I came after them, spent five months, and got out on bail. I was basically accused of preaching Qadianism although I am a Sunni Muslims.

The issue is, Qadianis or Qadiani-accused (such as myself) have less severe cases in Pakistan than Shi'ah because Qadianis never curse the Sahabah رضى الله عنهم, therefore, there isn't the same kind of outrage, even though 298-C (used against Qadianis) and 298-A (used against those who blaspheme Sahabah, Ahl al-Bayt, Ummahat al-Mu'minin) carry the same penalty (three years imprisonment).

So while I am critical of these blasphemy laws, the Shi'ah community aren't doing themselves any favors or gaining any sympathy by insisting they should be allowed to curse the Sahabah رضى الله عنهم openly in a Sunni majority country like Pakistan. It doesn't send a very good message that the Shi'ah have characterized their religion as being centered on cursing people that are venerated by the majority community.

Recently, Hamid Raza Sultani, a Shi'i zakir, was arrested for cursing sayyidina Abi Bakr as-Siddiq رضى الله عنه, and another zakir, Asif Rizvi, was charged with the same, but he managed to flee to the UK.

Edited by Cherub786
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18 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

While I was in Adiala Jail, housed with the blasphemy cases, there were three Shi'ah there who were all being charged with offenses of blasphemy against the Sahabah رضى الله عنهم. All three essentially were guilty of cursing Khulafa ar-Rashidin or Mu'awiyah on Facebook. The one who was charged with cursing Khulafa ar-Rashidin رضى الله عنهم on Facebook has been languishing in jail for almost five or six years (his name is Hamid Ali), his trial is still ongoing but recently was being expedited until the Covid-19 crisis hit. The other two have been there for little over a year, one of them (Shaukat) was working at a medicine dispensary for the Army, he told me his bail application was rejected by the Supreme Court. The other (Syed Ali Abbas) is a young man in his early 20s. All three are UTPs (under trial prisoners). I came after them, spent five months, and got out on bail. I was basically accused of preaching Qadianism although I am a Sunni Muslims.

The issue is, Qadianis or Qadiani-accused (such as myself) have less severe cases in Pakistan than Shi'ah because Qadianis never curse the Sahabah رضى الله عنهم, therefore, there isn't the same kind of outrage, even though 298-C (used against Qadianis) and 298-A (used against those who blaspheme Sahabah, Ahl al-Bayt, Ummahat al-Mu'minin) carry the same penalty (three years imprisonment).

Recently, Hamid Raza Sultani, a Shi'i zakir, was arrested for cursing sayyidina Abi Bakr as-Siddiq رضى الله عنه, and another zakir, Asif Rizvi, was charged with the same, but he managed to flee to the UK.

Thanks for sharing your ordeals, brother. It's extremely saddening to hear your troubles and how the law seems to be so lopsided against Shi'as in general. Last year I saw a video circulating on social media of a Pakistani man cursing Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) with vulgarity, but did not hear a single report of any arrests or charges on him.

It's an extreme shame, for a country where the army and intelligence are above the law and can do anything at all with complete impunity, that they are glorified as being some sort of honest safeguard of the country. It seems that constitution itself is deeply flawed.

As a Sunni, why can't you accept that history is not clear-cut, and that there are alternative views of history held by various peoples? In your books the Sahaba are viewed in a positive light, whereas in our books (many of them) aren't viewed in a positive light. Would you like us to reject our own books?

Another question: do you believe it's acceptable for Muslims who are a minority in the West to be able to recite controversial verses of the Qur'an freely? There are plenty of verses that the majority Christians would find offensive and Jews who would also find offensive. So why is it that when Sunnis are a minority in other parts of the world that they demand to be able to freely practice their religion, but when they are a majority in other countries, they do not let others freely practice?

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2 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

Thanks for sharing your ordeals, brother. It's extremely saddening to hear your troubles and how the law seems to be so lopsided against Shi'as in general. Last year I saw a video circulating on social media of a Pakistani man cursing Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) with vulgarity, but did not hear a single report of any arrests or charges on him.

I wouldn't say the law is lopsided against the Shi'ah, in the sense that the law has specifically discriminated against the Shi'ah (unlike the Qadiani-specific laws 298-B and 298-C, plus the 2nd amendment of the constitution which declares Qadianis "non-Muslim"). While I was in Adiala Jail, I met a self-professed Sunni (he is actually a hardcore Marxist-Leninist, his name is Muhammad Ijaz s/o Firoz Khan, hails from Jand in Dist. Attock) who is being charged with 295-A and 298-A, only he was accused of insulting Imam Husain رضى الله عنه. The petitioners against him were both Sunni and Shi'ah Ulama, but the Shi'ah are particularly against him (and he particularly dislikes Shi'ah - he naturally clashed with the Shi'ah blasphemy accused in Adiala, namely Shaukat and Hamid Ali).

You might have heard about the recent murder of Tahir Nasim, a prophesy-claimant who was killed at his hearing in a Peshawar courtroom. Likewise, another man was recently arrested in Lahore (Bahria Town) as he was claiming to be a Messenger of God openly on the street. Tahir Nasim was an American citizen, and this individual who was arrested in Bahria Town Lahore is apparently a Canadian citizen.

Pakistan needs to get rid of these medieval laws. If someone claims to be a Prophet, so what? You might remember how Syed Asad Shah was murdered in Glasgow by a fanatical Sunni of Pakistani descent for claiming to be a prophet. Many of these prophesy-claimants are mentally ill, what good does it serve to murder them? The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم prevented sayyidina Umar رضى الله عنه from beheading Ibn Sayyad, even though the latter claimed to be a Messenger of God right to the Prophet's face.

How does claiming to be a prophet automatically make one guilty of 295-C (blasphemy against Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)?

In Adiala, there was another individual whom I know prior and whom I met personally and spent lot of time with while I was in jail, Dr. Nasir Sultani. He claims to be a Mujaddid. Can you believe the FIA has charged him with terrorism offenses, in addition to 295-A, 295-B, 295-C and a whole range of other offenses for such harmless claims? He's been languishing in jail for the past three years, no verdict yet in his case (he is co-accused with three other individuals).

Quote

It seems that constitution itself is deeply flawed.

I agree 100%. The constitution isn't just flawed, it's a downright schizophrenic document, on one hand it claims to guarantee fundamental human and civil rights, on the other hand, it has instituted authoritarian framework for the state, and declares that sovereignty belongs to Allah alone and that all legislation that is repugnant to the Quran and Sunnah must be struck down. This is why Pakistan can't make up its mind whether to be a secular or Islamic state

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As a Sunni, why can't you accept that history is not clear-cut, and that there are alternative views of history held by various peoples? In your books the Sahaba are viewed in a positive light, whereas in our books (many of them) aren't viewed in a positive light. Would you like us to reject our own books?

Like I said, I disagree with any persecution or discrimination of the Shi'ah. You are entitled to your religious beliefs and interpretation of history. But I have pointed out it isn't wise for Shi'ah to so openly curse senior Sahabah رضى الله عنهم of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم that are deeply venerated by us Sunnis, especially in a Sunni majority country like Pakistan. Can you imagine Sunnis living in Iran openly cursing the Twelfth Imam, Khomeini, and other figures held in esteem by the Shi'ah, openly and publicly? What would the reaction of the Iranian regime be?

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Another question: do you believe it's acceptable for Muslims who are a minority in the West to be able to recite controversial verses of the Qur'an freely? There are plenty of verses that the majority Christians would find offensive and Jews who would also find offensive. So why is it that when Sunnis are a minority in other parts of the world that they demand to be able to freely practice their religion, but when they are a majority in other countries, they do not let others freely practice?

I agree it is somewhat hypocritical. I believe in absolute freedom of religion. But you must also remember that Christians and Jews are not as passionate about their religions as we Muslims are. It is quite evident that the average Christian isn't as bothered about someone committing blasphemy against Jesus Christ as Muslims are provoked when someone says even the least impolite thing about Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم. That's just the reality. Non-Muslims don't seem to realize how emotionally attached we Muslims are to our Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, they are genuinely perplexed and confused how an ordinary Muslim will go to the last extent to get revenge for the least bit of disrespect to our Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. Christians and Europeans are deeply secularized in their thinking and lifestyle, they simply don't have the same kind of passion that Muslims have. They also don't have the same concept of Ghairah (honor) that Muslims have, as evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of Western people are born out of wedlock

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18 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Like I said, I disagree with any persecution or discrimination of the Shi'ah. You are entitled to your religious beliefs and interpretation of history. But I have pointed out it isn't wise for Shi'ah to so openly curse senior Sahabah رضى الله عنهم of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم that are deeply venerated by us Sunnis, especially in a Sunni majority country like Pakistan. Can you imagine Sunnis living in Iran openly cursing the Twelfth Imam, Khomeini, and other figures held in esteem by the Shi'ah, openly and publicly? What would the reaction of the Iranian regime be?

I completely agree brother/sister, and I would also like to thank you for acknowledging that we have our own beliefs and are entitled to our own interpretation of history, for some reason people just don't seem to accept that

 

Also may I ask what do your think about the arrest of Taqi Jaffar, in which he got arrested for reciting Ziyarat e Ashurah (because you send Lanat to Muawiya and Abu Sufyan in it)

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I immediately dissociate from any Pakistani born American Shia that pushes pro Pakistan propaganda. If you're living in Pakistan you have no option but to support the state that oppresses you and doesn't give you justice. 

But there are zero reasons for a American or Canadian Shia to brainwashed by Pakistani propaganda. On the bright side everyone I know including myself matured out of this idiocy when we realized how the governments acts when Shias are killed in mass in Quetta, Parachinar, or Karachi. Its only teenagers, recent migrants or older adults that have this blind Pakistan is the best mentality. 

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1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

I completely agree brother/sister, and I would also like to thank you for acknowledging that we have our own beliefs and are entitled to our own interpretation of history, for some reason people just don't seem to accept that

Also may I ask what do your think about the arrest of Taqi Jaffar, in which he got arrested for reciting Ziyarat e Ashurah (because you send Lanat to Muawiya and Abu Sufyan in it)

I don't condone the arrest of anyone for purely religious activity. Taqi Ja'far shouldn't have been arrested. I don't like blasphemy laws in general

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3 hours ago, Jaabir said:

when Sunnis are a minority in other parts of the world that they demand to be able to freely practice their religion, but when they are a majority in other countries, they do not let others freely practice?

Is that always the case..... there is abit of a generalisation 

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10 hours ago, pakistanyar said:

 Its only teenagers, recent migrants or older adults that have this blind Pakistan is the best mentality. 

Pakistan isn't the best but despite the Shia oppression I don't think overall it's any worse off than US or Canada when it comes to religiosity. Both have issues with religious minorities. 

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Yesterday a boy was arrested for posting anti-Shia things on facebook. Someone took screenshots and sent them to the district police officer and within hours the non-Shia boy got arrested and put in jail awaiting trial. Like I wrote, this law (if/when used properly) works for everyone.

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5 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Yesterday a boy was arrested for posting anti-Shia things on facebook. Someone took screenshots and sent them to the district police officer and within hours the non-Shia boy got arrested and put in jail awaiting trial. Like I wrote, this law (if/when used properly) works for everyone.

The law doesn't work for everyone. Pakistan is not just Sunni and Shi'ah, there are other religious minority communities who are often victimized by blasphemy laws (Christians, Ahmadis). That there are instances of both sides (Sunni and Shi'ah) being victimized by these laws is a poor argument for its "fairness" and "justice". Pakistan, and the Muslim world in general, needs absolute religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of mobility, and freedom of conscience. These are basic human rights that need to be guaranteed by the State.

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In theory we do have all sorts of freedom. Ours is a country where a major political party exalts the enemies of the state, collaborates with them, criticizes and frames its own armed forces. Same goes for a throng of indiginous and foreign journalists. Ours is a country where separatists and terrorist supporters have political wings and make it into parliaments. I do not agree with any of these things personally but just writing it to give you a taste of just how much true freedom our people enjoy.

Pakistani democratic system needs at least another decade and has not yet evolved to the point that the nation may have spectacular democratic freedoms as present in Scandinavian countries. Even if that kind of legislation and gov machinery becomes available, our people are simply too unorganized, too globalized and "macdonalized" to realize their own identity and do things for their own benefits and that of their own country, their creed. The latter part might take forever.

As for providing "secular freedoms" they are there. Pakistani city dwellers according to statistics consume so much quantity of alcohol that if average is taken then 80% of the citizens consume alcohol. There are "massage parlors" and red light spots by the thousands in each major city. The administration is accomplice of course. In fact in a certain province the sale of alcohol has been legalized so it can be taxed.

All that said, there is indeed the terrible state of judiciary and the police. Justice is a joke here and available to only those who afford it, and even then it takes years to decide even serious crimes. I must admit. There is also a complete absence of paramilitary force and autonomous defense agencies in the country. It is a must to safeguard the state. Right now things ARE chaotic in comparison to the rest of the world. The nation has been forced to comply with and practice corruption. The new government is cracking down steadily on corruption wherever they find it. But it will take time to correct this thing.

Just stating the facts as I know them.

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2 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Pakistani democratic system needs at least another decade and has not yet evolved to the point that the nation may have spectacular democratic freedoms as present in Scandinavian countries. Even if that kind of legislation and gov machinery becomes available, our people are simply too unorganized, too globalized and "macdonalized" to realize their own identity and do things for their own benefits and that of their own country, their creed. The latter part might take forever.

As for providing "secular freedoms" they are there. Pakistani city dwellers according to statistics consume so much quantity of alcohol that if average is taken then 80% of the citizens consume alcohol. There are "massage parlors" and red light spots by the thousands in each major city. The administration is accomplice of course. In fact in a certain province the sale of alcohol has been legalized so it can be taxed.

All that said, there is indeed the terrible state of judiciary and the police. Justice is a joke here and available to only those who afford it, and even then it takes years to decide even serious crimes. I must admit. There is also a complete absence of paramilitary force and autonomous defense agencies in the country. It is a must to safeguard the state. Right now things ARE chaotic in comparison to the rest of the world. The nation has been forced to comply with and practice corruption. The new government is cracking down steadily on corruption wherever they find it. But it will take time to correct this thing.

Just stating the facts as I know them.

You are mixing political freedom with social freedom. More Western cultural liberalization, like alcohol, prostitution, etc., isn't what we need. It's the last thing we need. What we need is political and religious freedom. The State is corrupt, they don't care about the red light districts, but they care about a Shi'i zakir and what he preaches on the pulpit to his own congregation? If the State is so "Islamic" what is this hypocrisy? Alcohol is freely being drank (as you say) but at the same time alleged blasphemy is being prosecuted to the fullest extent? This is a sign of a very bipolar society that has a shallow and cosmetic attachment to the Religion.

And I don't see Pakistan's trajectory toward greater political liberalization either. On the contrary, the trajectory points toward more authoritarianism like the Middle East. Musharraf liberalized the media. Actually, his intention was not that there would be serious journalism and political freedom in the country, but by commercializing the media it would be a crucial means for the cultural liberalization of Pakistani Muslim society. Now Pakistan is inundated with TV dramas/soap operas and a push for more female social mobility pushed by the commercialized media and entertainment industry at the expense of our traditional values and gender roles.

Simultaneously, the madaris and masajid are coming under greater State control. They are disallowing foreign funding for madaris (on what basis?), enforcing a state curriculum and registration of madaris so the state can set up the conditions to gradually introduce its own state sanctioned version of Islam.

The crackdown on financial corruption is good, though PML-N and PPP continue to resist it tooth and nail. IMHO, the crackdown by NAB isn't strong enough, they need to be fully empowered with greater powers, because the judiciary itself contains elements that are in the pockets of PML-N, like the IHC which suspended the sentences of Nawaz Sharif and company

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18 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Now Pakistan is inundated with TV dramas/soap operas and a push for more female social mobility pushed by the commercialized media and entertainment industry at the expense of our traditional values and gender roles.

Yeah I missed mentioning that freedom for women. Their rallies pushing forward for the women of Pakistan to have better and more freedoms. Isn't that a good thing too?

18 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The State is corrupt, they don't care about the red light districts, but they care about a Shi'i zakir and what he preaches on the pulpit to his own congregation? If the State is so "Islamic" what is this hypocrisy?

I have already admitted the judicial, penal and police system is terrible. However you are attempting to make the gov responsible which is simply untrue. The gov specifically the new PM and his party very recently turned down an oppressive, anti-Shia bill passed in the Punjab assembly by the political representatives of the sectarian extremists. With similar good decisions in the past it is funny the political gov is criticized as anti-Islamic / pro-Shia by the pro-sectarian elements and simultaneously some Shia (always the ones with allegiances to the mega corrupt political party (yes its absurd)) accuse them of oppressing them going full emo and all. The case of the Shia person arrested for sending lanah on Yazid is not state policy rather an instance of abuse of law. But I digress. Little point debating with you.

18 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Alcohol is freely being drank (as you say) but at the same time alleged blasphemy is being prosecuted to the fullest extent?

I would blame the typical Pakistani for that. On one hand many of them love alcohol, some "Shia" even celebrate 14th Rajab with it, while on the other hand they go into an emotional frenzy if even at the other side of the globe someone commits blasphemy. What else do you expect from pure democracy? It has to represent the wishes of its people. The state is rather very wise that they do not entertain all of their wishes otherwise, for instance, our western and eastern two neighbors would have turned to glass with nuclear strikes by now.

18 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The State is corrupt, they don't care about the red light districts

The beaurocracy infact 90% of the nation is corrupt. I have already written that but okay.

18 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Actually, his intention was not that there would be serious journalism and political freedom in the country

An omniscient man who knows intentions. How rare.

18 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

imultaneously, the madaris and masajid are coming under greater State control. They are disallowing foreign funding for madaris (on what basis?)

To root out terrorism and proxy terror aka 5th generation warfare or whatever it is called. No country has combated it more or lost more lives dealing with it. Foreign funding is not disallowed outright rather now it has to be done with the government's consent. They are still erecting madaris every few miles all over the country where the dirt poor people leave their children under the care of the mullah, because orphanages don't take children with living parents. And then what happens in these madaris next is entirely another story. I know you would rather that "American Deliverance" be dispensed on the Pakistani nation.

18 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

And I don't see Pakistan's trajectory toward greater political liberalization either.

I want to ask, did you or your parents live in India before moving to Canada?

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On 9/2/2020 at 11:02 AM, The Green Knight said:

Yesterday a boy was arrested for posting anti-Shia things on facebook. Someone took screenshots and sent them to the district police officer and within hours the non-Shia boy got arrested and put in jail awaiting trial. Like I wrote, this law (if/when used properly) works for everyone.

Great, someone was arrested for posting 'anti-Shia' things. Let's alert the presses to show how balanced and equitable Pakistan law enforcement is to it's Sunni and Shiite populations. Then a few months later once the Shi'as have forgotten about it, let's release the anti-Shi'a convict, such as the the leader of the notorious Shi'a killing org Lashkar Jhangvi https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/dreaded-terrorist-malik-ishaq-released-by-pakistan-government/articleshow/45617614.cms.

The difference between someone posting 'anti-Shia things' on Facebook and that of a Shi'a zakir reciting from a religious text is that one is acting strictly out of personal vendetta against the other sect, whereas the other is simply reciting a religious text as an act of worship.

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2 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Yeah I missed mentioning that freedom for women. Their rallies pushing forward for the women of Pakistan to have better and more freedoms. Isn't that a good thing too?

It's not a good thing from an Islamic perspective

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 What else do you expect from pure democracy?

1. Pakistan is hardly a pure democracy

2. Pure democracy without constitutional safeguard of basic human and civil rights is extremely dangerous. No modern, liberal democracy of the Western world can be characterized as a "pure democracy" in that sense. Blasphemy laws are anathema to the basic principles of liberalism

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Foreign funding is not disallowed outright rather now it has to be done with the government's consent. They are still erecting madaris every few miles all over the country where the dirt poor people leave their children under the care of the mullah, because orphanages don't take children with living parents. And then what happens in these madaris next is entirely another story. I know you would rather that "American Deliverance" be dispensed on the Pakistani nation.

Well then the Madaris are to be appreciated for taking in the children of the dirt poor. The state institutions have obviously failed if people are compelled to send their children to the Madaris because there is no alternative (of course, children should never be sent because of such a motivation, the motivation should always be to serve God)

What does foreign funding have to do with terrorism? The reality is the State wants to control the madaris and weaken their independence, so it is vital to cut off their foreign funding. Madaris have little if anything to do with terrorism. Many radicalized terrorists are actually produced by the higher education system in Pakistan.

In no modern, Western state of the world is foreign funding so restricted as it is in Pakistan

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I want to ask, did you or your parents live in India before moving to Canada?

My dad is from Hyderabad, India. He immigrated to Canada in the late 1980s. He is no longer an Indian citizen. My mom is from Multan, Pakistan, she came to Canada in the early 1970s when she was very little. My maternal grandfather came to Canada in the 1960s. He was born in Masanian village, Tehsil Batala, District Gurdaspur, Punjab, British India. Therefore, I'm a third generation Canadian

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