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In the Name of God بسم الله
Jaabir

Pakistani Man Sentenced to 5 Years for "Blasphemy Against Sahaba"

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I'm curious to hear what all the nationalist Pakistani Shi'as have to say about this one: https://www.dawn.com/news/1511436

What's ridiculous about this is that the man was charged with "posting blasphemous material against the Sahaba" as if saying anything about the fallible Sahaba is tantamount to attacking Allah. Is this the Pakistan Imran Khan promised?

It's quite clear that Shi'as in Pakistan are not given the freedoms that others enjoy and it's disappointing to see the number of Pakistani Shi'as go out of their way to defend the same regime that oppresses them. Apparently Imran Khan is a saviour of some sort but still won't allow minorities to practice freedom of speech.

A few examples of what Shi'as in Pakistan deal with not counting the government-facilitated bombings and assassinations:

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/Pakistan-sentences-man-to-death-for-blasphemy-on-facebook-982229-2017-06-12

https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-Pakistani-shiites-disappearing/a-49524026

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-Asia-44280552

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From the Pakistan penal code:

Quote

295-A.  Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.--Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings, of any class of the citizens of Pakistan, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to [Ten] years, or with fine or with both.

Its a law that is used as shield by the Shia as well and protects our alams, ziyarats from defilement of yazidis. That said, in Pakistan each law can be used or abused and takes effort and money and influence as there is much corruption indeed while legal awareness among people is usually nill until its too late and that is why lawyers here are the biggest thugs and crooks. Too bad for that guy, but he should have known better. He could also have followed the mujtahids to have the decency not to hurt the feelings of others. Hurting others is not a part of "freedom of speech" here. This could have been easily avoided.

Yes we Shia have our issues, yes the law and the state has its issues, yes people here can and do often vanish indefinitely but only after they are found involved in crimes and not otherwise. This disappearance thing is most common in and around Karachi, the most attractive area for all criminals in the country. It is sought by so-called Pakistani Taliban (TTP) after the MQM was broken and a vacuum appeared. They ransom industrialists and collect protection money from shopkeepers for instance and make incomparably more than any criminals elsewhere. Criminals and murderers from across the country seek employment there. Actually over there all the hardened criminals when identified are just taken to a river or water body and disposed of. Our judicial system is weak and worthless enough for law enforcement departments and the establishment to resort to that.

In case of the disappeared Shia, their hit and run on a deobandi cleric in Karachi failed (this happened some months earlier and I was following the whole thing and If I recall correctly it was even discussed here on ShiaChat) and there were a few deaths and these people were found to have foreign links as well as involvement in such serious crime, and so they were taken away. However the usual Shia like myself or others have not a shred to worry about.

Just being honest.

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On 10/23/2019 at 10:00 AM, Jaabir said:

It's quite clear that Shi'as in Pakistan are not given the freedoms that others enjoy and it's disappointing to see the number of Pakistani Shi'as go out of their way to defend the same regime that oppresses them. Apparently Imran Khan is a saviour of some sort but still won't allow minorities to practice freedom of speech.

A few examples of what Shi'as in Pakistan deal with not counting the government-facilitated bombings and assassinations:

Salam insulting Sahaba & breaking law is not freedom of speech anyway Imran Khan is very better person than rest of previous Pakistani PMs but in Pakistan Shias still have a long way to reach to a good position but after electing Imran Khan their situation becomes a little better but Shia must avoid insulting Sahaba & breaking rules & use freedom of Speech to gain their right not misusing it by insulting others under influence of some infamous cults that are causing rift between Shias & Sunnis in Pakistan & other Muslims countries also all of your news sources are infamous for anti Islam specially anti Shia agenda that are seeking for a war between Pakistan & India that few days ago another same scenario happened in Bangladesh that it said from hacked account of an Indian  man in Facebook same insulting spread there that caused a clash between Muslims & Bangladesh security forces that I think something is fishy here also both Iraq & Lebanon protest is supporting by Facebook services like as Whatsapp & it's messenger also The Green Party of Iran that did all of it's anti Iranian activity through Facebook 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Iran

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam insulting Sahaba & breaking law is not freedom of speech anyway Imran Khan is very better person than rest of previous Pakistani PMs but in Pakistan Shias still have a long way to reach to a good position but after electing Imran Khan their situation becomes a little better but Shia must avoid insulting Sahaba & breaking rules & use freedom of Speech to gain their right not misusing it by insulting others under influence of some infamous cults that are causing rift between Shias & Sunnis in Pakistan & other Muslims countries also all of your news sources are infamous for anti Islam specially anti Shia agenda that are seeking for a war between Pakistan & India that few days ago another same scenario happened in Bangladesh that it said from hacked account of an Indian  man in Facebook same insulting spread there that caused a clash between Muslims & Bangladesh security forces that I think something is fishy here also both Iraq & Lebanon protest is supporting by Facebook services like as Whatsapp & it's messenger also The Green Party of Iran that did all of it's anti Iranian activity through Facebook

Walaykum salam,

We don't know what the person said exactly for him to get arrested and handed a five year sentence, but if he said something that is mentioned in our kutub there should be no problem in sharing it. If you don't agree with 'insulting' the Sahaba, then maybe those companions shouldn't have done those deeds in the first place. There's no need to remind everyone that Tabarra from the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt is part of our Furu` al-deen. If the person who was sentenced said it in an academic discussion/debate then that's even more exposing of the Pak government's oppression.

On 10/23/2019 at 6:36 AM, Darth Vader said:

From the Pakistan penal code:

Is this law exclusively for Shi'as to follow? Where are the news reports of the jail terms handed to Pakistani Muslims who insult Pakistani Christian or Hindu beliefs? I've seen several instances where Hindu religious beliefs are mocked or ridiculed, or Christian beliefs are insulted but masked as honest debate, but all I've heard of is Christians being handed death sentences and fleeing the country or Shi'as being handed lengthy jail terms or kidnapped. Where are then sentences for those who call Shi'a kafir in Pakistan? Is this not "outraging the religious feelings" according to the law you shared?

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3 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

Is this law exclusively for Shi'as to follow? Where are the news reports of the jail terms handed to Pakistani Muslims who insult Pakistani Christian or Hindu beliefs? I've seen several instances where Hindu religious beliefs are mocked or ridiculed, or Christian beliefs are insulted but masked as honest debate, but all I've heard of is Christians being handed death sentences and fleeing the country or Shi'as being handed lengthy jail terms or kidnapped. Where are then sentences for those who call Shi'a kafir in Pakistan? Is this not "outraging the religious feelings" according to the law you shared?

You will not find any if you do not take the time to find out.

Man sentenced to 10 years in jail for collecting funds for TTP

Four more 'hardcore TTP terrorists' hanged

Maulana Sami Ul-Haq, 'Father Of The Taliban,' Stabbed To Death

Video: Terrorist admits plot to spark sectarian violence during Ashura procession

Things are getting better than before. Instead of complaining, if the Shias step forward and take part in and help the government fixing things things will have the potential to become dramatically better. For the first time ever we have better individuals in the government having Shia, pro-Shia or non-Takfiri faiths while the sectarian elements are on the run. The status quo is no more and the old western puppets are in deep trouble.

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8 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

We don't know what the person said exactly for him to get arrested and handed a five year sentence, but if he said something that is mentioned in our kutub there should be no problem in sharing it. If you don't agree with 'insulting' the Sahaba, then maybe those companions shouldn't have done those deeds in the first place. There's no need to remind everyone that Tabarra from the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt is part of our Furu` al-deen. If the person who was sentenced said it in an academic discussion/debate then that's even more exposing of the Pak government's oppression.

all of us know who are insulted & everything in our books are not sacred or true that must examines by Qur'an & teaching of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) that because of that we don't call our books as Sahih the Tabara and insulting sahaba are two different matters also Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he doesn't like that Shias  say insults but we can condemn our enemy with fair & rational word and such post in social media like as Facebook  most of times are short text that are full of insuts & I don't see or hear that someone uses a post for academic discussion /Debate in Facebook but in Lnkedin it's possible.

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On 10/23/2019 at 11:30 AM, Jaabir said:

I'm curious to hear what all the nationalist Pakistani Shi'as have to say about this one: https://www.dawn.com/news/1511436

What's ridiculous about this is that the man was charged with "posting blasphemous material against the Sahaba" as if saying anything about the fallible Sahaba is tantamount to attacking Allah. Is this the Pakistan Imran Khan promised?

It's quite clear that Shi'as in Pakistan are not given the freedoms that others enjoy and it's disappointing to see the number of Pakistani Shi'as go out of their way to defend the same regime that oppresses them. Apparently Imran Khan is a saviour of some sort but still won't allow minorities to practice freedom of speech.

A few examples of what Shi'as in Pakistan deal with not counting the government-facilitated bombings and assassinations:

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/Pakistan-sentences-man-to-death-for-blasphemy-on-facebook-982229-2017-06-12

https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-Pakistani-shiites-disappearing/a-49524026

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-Asia-44280552

 

This needs to be put into perspective. I can see how a few media reports would give an inaccurate picture when the real situation on the ground is quite different, as is usually the case with media reports of this kind, especially from foreign outlets.

As brother @Darth Vader mentioned the laws against insulting and vilifying any religion and their sacred personalities cuts both ways. The same law that bans cursing the revered figures of Sunnism also protects Shia religious symbols and personalities. There have been numerous cases of sectarian anti-Shia tracts banned or confiscated over the decades as there have been of anti-Sunni books getting banned. This isn't a Shia-Sunni issue or even a Muslim-non issue. Under this law Sunnis have been prosecuted for insulting Hindu religious figures and so on. One can argue on a liberal basis that all such laws are anachronistic and undemocratic and should be done away with, but hey, this is Pakistan not France.

A Muslim shopkeeper booked for blasphemy against insulting Hindu religious symbols.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1126404/shopkeeper-charged-blasphemy-selling-shoes-Hindu-symbol/

As for Shia "missing persons," this is part of the bigger problem involving enforced disappearance of individuals who are suspected of involvement in shady activities (terrorism, anti-state, foreign funding for sectarian activities etc) but for which there isn't enough evidence to prosecute them in a court of law. Too many genuine cases of dangerous terrorists have been dropped and they walked free because of "lack of evidence." A vast majority of disappeared people aren't Shia. There have been Shia militants who have responded to anti-Shia groups in kind and targeted them since the 1990s. 

More recently politics and sectarianism have overlapped and Shias in Karachi who had political influence under MQM have targeted Wahhabis as well, which has also given another layer to the conflict, of ethnic conflict. MQM Shias are muhajirs (of Indian origin) whereas many Wahhabi extremist in Karachi are Pashtuns, and the two groups have been at loggerheads in Karachi during the first half of the current decade until the military cleaned the house and broke their backs. Whether one likes Pak's military or not, the latest operation in Karachi was done impartially and methodically, not against one sectarian and/or ethnic group but against all trouble-makers across the board. This is where some Shias got picked up, rightly or wrongly. Some came back, others are still missing. The state does not bother ordinary Shias, or even religiously and/or politically active Shias if there isn't anything against them.

With respect to insulting the Sahaba, it's a real thing. We are not talking about tabarra or even criticism of the revered Sunnis figures done diplomatically, which happens all the time and isn't prosecuted, but outright abuse and cursing. There are plenty of hyper Shias who drop all sense of propriety and common sense and say absolutely demeaning and hateful things against the figures revered by Sunnis. I can pretty much imagine what that guy must have written on FB because I get such forward messages on Shia groups all the time. Of course the Sunnis won't tolerate it and demand action.

 

Edited by Marbles
typos

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Absuing and Cursing for no reason, is culture here, to be honest.
people start talking with abuse. and they enjoy it.
so it is bound to happen in a aociety like this.
also people intenionally or intentially are akhbari there (majority)
and they also abuse Marjas. 
its actually culture

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4 hours ago, Marbles said:

The state does not bother ordinary Shias, or even religiously and/or politically active Shias if there isn't anything against them.

On the other hand, the state goes a long way in accommodating Shia presence. Nothing gets state machinery moving as azadari does in Muharram. And its not just because of Shia presence in the upper circles of power, but because everyone recognizes the damaging potential a minority so scattered presents.

If there is anything Pakistan's establishment is afraid of, it is the Shia-Sunni fault-line.

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In theory the Shia shouldn't even need a law against being abusive or insulting, the akhlaq of our madhab is the best guideline. 

For those who seem to be confusing this with 'tabarrah', the definition is to distance oneself from the opponents of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), His Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). There is nothing in there about abusing or insulting. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 10/23/2019 at 2:30 AM, Jaabir said:

I'm curious to hear what all the nationalist Pakistani Shi'as have to say about this one: https://www.dawn.com/news/1511436

What's ridiculous about this is that the man was charged with "posting blasphemous material against the Sahaba" as if saying anything about the fallible Sahaba is tantamount to attacking Allah. Is this the Pakistan Imran Khan promised?

It's quite clear that Shi'as in Pakistan are not given the freedoms that others enjoy and it's disappointing to see the number of Pakistani Shi'as go out of their way to defend the same regime that oppresses them. Apparently Imran Khan is a saviour of some sort but still won't allow minorities to practice freedom of speech.

A few examples of what Shi'as in Pakistan deal with not counting the government-facilitated bombings and assassinations:

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/Pakistan-sentences-man-to-death-for-blasphemy-on-facebook-982229-2017-06-12

https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-Pakistani-shiites-disappearing/a-49524026

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-Asia-44280552

 

I am a proud Pakistani Shia and almost all Pakistani Shias are proud Pakistani Shias first of all we call out our government when they are wrong we protest against our government when our government is wrong, but when our government do good we back them so I don't know what are you talking about.we don't worship Imran Khan blindly like some Indian Shias do to their Hindu Leader modi who massacred Gujrati Muslims and killing and oppressing Kashmiri Muslims. We oppose Imran khan when we have to and we support him when we know he is on rite.

And our Jahil Zakireen Openly Curse Umar Abu Bakr which I think is wrong to do it openly... I am against it because it disrupt the peace between Shia Sunni living side by side in neighbourhoods and Shia Sunni kids studying together in schools colleges universities  ,its wrong its like starting a war with them instead of living with them peacefully. so that guy was wrong in doing that there was no need to openly curse them unless you want to disrupt the peace with them.you can have ilmi debate or discussion

and I don't know if you are one of those Pakistani hating Indian Shia who defend their Hindu Modi Oppressing Country but if you are then go out Curse Hindu Gods openly in Hindu majority Areas and Eat beef there and also record yourself doing all that and put it out on the internet you'll find out what will happen to you very quickly.

Bahraini Government are Oppressing Bahraini Shias ,Saddam use to Oppress Iraqi Shias ,should they hate their nationality and countries for that? 

Oppression or problems like these happens in every country(Muslim or non-Muslim) with every Shia non Shia Muslims but that doesn't mean we hate our country or our nationality

your propaganda will fail miserably if you want Pakistani Shias to hate Pakistan because we don't we love Pakistan we will gave our life for Pakistan ,my Cousin was a Pak army soldier he is a Shaheed he lost his life on the Afghan Pakistan border and Our Entire Shia Pakistani Family is proud of it.

 

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your propaganda will fail miserably if you want Pakistani Shias to hate Pakistan because we don't we love Pakistan we will gave our life for Pakistan ,my Cousin was a Pak army soldier he is a Shaheed he lost his life on the Afghan Pakistan border and Our Entire Shia Pakistani Family is proud of it.

I don't see why any Shia would be a nationalist of any country, regardless of whether it is India, Pakistan, Iran or any other country in the world. These borders are man made, none of these countries or their governments will save you in your grave or intercede for you on the day of judgement. 

Our allegiance is to the Imam of our time (عليه السلام).

Wallahu a'lam 

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5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't see why any Shia would be a nationalist of any country, regardless of whether it is India, Pakistan, Iran or any other country in the world. These borders are man made, none of these countries or their governments will save you in your grave or intercede for you on the day of judgement. 

Our allegiance is to the Imam of our time (عليه السلام).

Wallahu a'lam 

Perhaps because of the often quoted hadith that حب الوطن من الإيمان

 I.e patriotism/love for your country/"nationalism" is (from/a sign of?) faith

Edited by habib e najjaar

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45 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Perhaps because of the often quoted hadith that حب الوطن من الإيمان

 I.e patriotism/love for your country/"nationalism" is (from/a sign of?) faith

There are a few points to mention here (without commenting on the authenticity of the narration)

-patriotism and nationalism are different. The former is to love your country (hubb ul watn) while the latter is to consider it superior to others ('asabiyyah)

-I would imagine piety lies in the aspect of being a valuable and proactive citizen who helps ones neighbours and society, rather than the aspect of merely waving flags, chanting slogans and zealously protecting anything and everything linked to a country defined by imperialist developed borders regardless of whether its right or wrong.

Wallahu a'lam 

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4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

There are a few points to mention here (without commenting on the authenticity of the narration)

-patriotism and nationalism are different. The former is to love your country (hubb ul watn) while the latter is to consider it superior to others ('asabiyyah)

-I would imagine piety lies in the aspect of being a valuable and proactive citizen who helps ones neighbours and society, rather than the aspect of merely waving flags, chanting slogans and zealously protecting anything and everything linked to a country defined by imperialist developed borders regardless of whether its right or wrong.

Wallahu a'lam 

Agreed, I mentioned the hadith as among the "causes" so to speak of misguided patriotism and by extenstion nationalism.

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